5 element theory, no place in imortality

[Kundaolinyi]

5 Elements. When viewed in the form of trigrams, each element is either 2 parts yin and 1 part yang, or 2 parts yang and 1 part yin. The exception to this is the 'earth' element which is 3 parts yin.

 

Irrefutably, when adding up each of 'bars' in the 5 trigrams, you will never come up with yin# = yang#. No mater what combination of 5 trigrams you try, you will either have more yin than yang bars, or more yang than yin bars. This is simple math.

 

5 elemental systems, therefore, are mathematically unbalanced. In a system that attempts to balance yin and yang, why are 5 element systems used?

 

The very notion of 'creation' and 'destruction' cycles implies life and death. To die you must be alive. To be alive you must die. Neither of these things have anything to do with immortality. There is no birth nor death in immortality. Only being that always was.

 

So then, if one were to seek immortality, would it not make sense to OVERCOME the obvious 5 elemental form that we can all acknowledge as real?

 

The very idea of 'being cut off from heaven' applies to the 5 element system. Earth is always thrown in the mix, but where is heaven? Heaven is sitting off to the side with the other 'universal forces' on the pakua watching the creation and destruction cycle.

 

Sure, I hate to draw a hexagram instead of a pentagram, seeing how the Rothschild minion's Zionists have claimed a monopoly on it, but something seems to be off.

 

 

 

It occurred to me one night while thinking about the 'appendix', and why it is such an atrophied organ. Often times, the large intestine is considered the 'yang organ' corresponding to the 'metal' element, while at the same time, it corresponds with 'heaven' (3 yang bars). It would seem to me that our atrophied appendix was most likely once connected to the 'sixth element' in the once immortal cycle, before we were 'cut off from heaven' and put in the 'creation/destruction cycle'.

 

But hey, far be it from me to use theory like that to explain why 5 elemental practice most likely encourages mortality, just look at the math.

 

Maybe I have something wrong on this one, but I think 5 elements cannot and will not ever equal balance. If balance is what we seek, and immortality is the result of balance, then 5 elemental alchemy is something to be acknowledged as a reality, but not as an original truth.

 

any thoughts?

 

 

(edited for spelling)

Edited September 13, 2008 by Kundaolinyi

[Martial Development]

I think there is no symmetry in unity.

[Stigweard]

any thoughts?

 

 

Less time thinking and theorising and more time cultivating.

[exorcist_1699]

My understanding is that in order to attain immortality , we first have to return to the pre-heavenly status where the 5- element doesn't exist .

 

The original process is something like that : Taiji status ( Pre-heavenly ) => "degeneration/ embodiment" of it in the physical world => split into yin/yang qi (post-heavenly) =>embodiment of this kind of qi in human body => further split into 5-element qi , i.e, there are different kinds of qi in our organs , which correspond to different seasons/food/emotions/ sounds...etc . Back to the pre-heavenly status means a reversed process... .

 

Of course, the principle is very important in TCM when talking about how to diagnose diseases and heal them . On the other hand, in Taoist cultivation , the importance of 5-element principle can be shown in the following simple fact:

 

It is absolutely impossible for us to get a stable, high-quality state of qi if some part of our body is in a disturbing status, a disorder of qi . It also tells us how important we have to pay attention to seasonal changes and our daily emotions, food, drinks ,sex...strict self-discipline is always needed .

Edited September 13, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[h.uriahr]

Let's ask an IMMORTAL...any ideas where to find one???

[exorcist_1699]

Maybe you already came across an immortality on the street but not recognized him/ her .

 

To those work as customs officer, customer service clerk..etc, some day you meet a guy who holds a passport/ identity card.. with an appearance looks 30~40 years younger than his actual age, then he is the one...

Edited September 13, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[WhiteTiger]

Maybe I have something wrong on this one, but I think 5 elements cannot and will not ever equal balance. If balance is what we seek, and immortality is the result of balance, then 5 elemental alchemy is something to be acknowledged as a reality, but not as an original truth.

 

any thoughts?

 

I don't think you have anything wrong with this one.

 

It seems you have a case of everything is so complex.

 

The way is Simple... By Lao Tzu... maybe he had something good to say about the way *grins*

 

As you stated The 5 elements... or what we refer to the 5 elements was not always considered the name of what is now called the 5 elements (At least from what I understand) it used to be refered to something like the creation/generating cycle, destruction/Overcoming cycle. (I'm not saying there aren't 5 elements but i'm saying that 5 elements or the exact name doesn't represent the theories that they are apart of) The closest name for whats now called the 5 elements is called teh 5 phases. Because each phase is a different element. The referance of 5 phases represents 5 different parts of the phase in whichever theory you apply it to. Of course the 1 of each phase represents its own element. The word Element talks about a feeling you get within the body.

 

So what I'm trying to plainly say is 5 elements aren't supposed to be balanced. They are part of the 5 phases, which can be understood in different orders or the theory of creation/generating or destruction/Overcoming.

 

If you want to talk about fun theory (or at least fun for me) we could talk about in the creation/generating cycle to beat another person... i guess in compition you have to create or generate more than he. If he allows himself to get discouraged than he loses (although that should not be considered an actual option... just ways to overcome, despite how hard it is) Although when doing destruction cycle to another the other person can't really beat you with doing more destruction. this way you both are left with destruction this doesn't actually accomplish much but both people hurting each other. Its pointless. How you beat this is not with the same its with the opposite. You do the opposite cycle of destruction if your opposite is more powerful then well you win. The theory is you don't get hurt in the proccess either. Kinda of funny huh? Think about it honestly. To Generate and beat another person like forms competition you just have to generate better more so to speak. While in destruction is the art of taking away form another, one can't try and take away from the other and the other person try and take away from the other both are left messed up... maybe one wins but still both messed up.

[autopoetic]

In my understanding, everything we experience is out of balance. All sensations are imbalances. This is just the post-heaven state. If we would return to the source, we cannot do so by pretending we are already there. We must use imbalance to create balance, because imbalance is all we have. The question then becomes creating exactly and only the right imbalance to create balance. Therefore, right practice moves us through harmonizing the five elements into the tai-chi state, where original balance begins.

[Guest allan]

 

So then, if one were to seek immortality, would it not make sense to OVERCOME the obvious 5 elemental form that we can all acknowledge as real?

 

The very idea of 'being cut off from heaven' applies to the 5 element system. Earth is always thrown in the mix, but where is heaven? Heaven is sitting off to the side with the other 'universal forces' on the pakua watching the creation and destruction cycle.

 

Maybe I have something wrong on this one, but I think 5 elements cannot and will not ever equal balance. If balance is what we seek, and immortality is the result of balance, then 5 elemental alchemy is something to be acknowledged as a reality, but not as an original truth.

 

any thoughts?

 

 

The ancients and the Zhen Ren did not leave out Heaven, you did.

[Taomeow]

Well, the confusion is terminological, confined to the domain of words. The Five Phases or rather, Five Stages of Change (of qi, what else) and the Eight Trigrams of the bagua both use terms like "fire," "water" and so on, but they mean different things in the two systems. E.g. Water of the Five Phases means a phase of qi that "descends," while Water of the bagua is a trigram that has two yielding lines around a central firm line, signifying a quality of qi that is soft on the outside but possesses inner strength. The two systems describe different aspects of the universal process. Tao-in-motion is represented by the Later Heaven bagua, and tao-in-stillness, by the Earlier Heaven bagua. Immortality can (and does) exist either in stillness or in motion. It is a common mistake to think of immortality as "stillness only," however taoist classics are full of explicit statements to the contrary -- "the way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return." The bagua describes the way ("method") of tao, and the Five Phases, its pattern. "Return" is not a once-and-for-all deal, not a one-way ticket "to the source" -- unlike in Buddhism, in taoism, "to and fro goes the Way."

[Kundaolinyi]

Less time thinking and theorising and more time cultivating.

Actually I've been practicing in line with these theories for quite some time and have enjoyed some results, but I didn't really want insult anyone by presenting it as fact.

 

The ancients and the Zhen Ren did not leave out Heaven, you did.

In most traditional 5 element systems I've come across, it is not taught that Heaven is is part of the 5 elemental cycles.

 

I don't think you have anything wrong with this one.

 

It seems you have a case of everything is so complex.

 

The way is Simple... By Lao Tzu... maybe he had something good to say about the way *grins*

 

As you stated The 5 elements... or what we refer to the 5 elements was not always considered the name of what is now called the 5 elements (At least from what I understand) it used to be refered to something like the creation/generating cycle, destruction/Overcoming cycle. (I'm not saying there aren't 5 elements but i'm saying that 5 elements or the exact name doesn't represent the theories that they are apart of) The closest name for whats now called the 5 elements is called teh 5 phases. Because each phase is a different element. The referance of 5 phases represents 5 different parts of the phase in whichever theory you apply it to. Of course the 1 of each phase represents its own element. The word Element talks about a feeling you get within the body.

 

So what I'm trying to plainly say is 5 elements aren't supposed to be balanced. They are part of the 5 phases, which can be understood in different orders or the theory of creation/generating or destruction/Overcoming.

 

If you want to talk about fun theory (or at least fun for me) we could talk about in the creation/generating cycle to beat another person... i guess in compition you have to create or generate more than he. If he allows himself to get discouraged than he loses (although that should not be considered an actual option... just ways to overcome, despite how hard it is) Although when doing destruction cycle to another the other person can't really beat you with doing more destruction. this way you both are left with destruction this doesn't actually accomplish much but both people hurting each other. Its pointless. How you beat this is not with the same its with the opposite. You do the opposite cycle of destruction if your opposite is more powerful then well you win. The theory is you don't get hurt in the proccess either. Kinda of funny huh? Think about it honestly. To Generate and beat another person like forms competition you just have to generate better more so to speak. While in destruction is the art of taking away form another, one can't try and take away from the other and the other person try and take away from the other both are left messed up... maybe one wins but still both messed up.

Even when talking about 5 phases (rather than the physical manifestations of organs) in the context of, lets say, seasons. Yes they DO need to be balanced. If summer lasts to long and gets too hot, things burn. If winter lasts too long and gets too cold, things die from lack of warmth and growth.

 

I don't think the simple math I've done is too complex at all. It's actually VERY simple.

 

To be more specific, I was talking about the physical manifestation of organs in the body, which take form of a 5 element system. I am quite convinced that the suposed 'imortal body' was not a 5 elemental system.

 

I think there is no symmetry in unity.

But I think there is no unity in oness. What are we talking about here?

Edited September 13, 2008 by Kundaolinyi

[Kundaolinyi]

In my understanding, everything we experience is out of balance. All sensations are imbalances. This is just the post-heaven state. If we would return to the source, we cannot do so by pretending we are already there. We must use imbalance to create balance, because imbalance is all we have. The question then becomes creating exactly and only the right imbalance to create balance. Therefore, right practice moves us through harmonizing the five elements into the tai-chi state, where original balance begins.

I think I kinda hear ya. I'm not trying to say 5 elemental alchemy isn't realy. I'm just saying it isn't the original truth. I think you're right, that we have to start with what we have, but like the old saying goes 'you can't begin to solve a problem until you recognize that you have one'.

 

 

Well, the confusion is terminological, confined to the domain of words. The Five Phases or rather, Five Stages of Change (of qi, what else) and the Eight Trigrams of the bagua both use terms like "fire," "water" and so on, but they mean different things in the two systems. E.g. Water of the Five Phases means a phase of qi that "descends," while Water of the bagua is a trigram that has two yielding lines around a central firm line, signifying a quality of qi that is soft on the outside but possesses inner strength. The two systems describe different aspects of the universal process. Tao-in-motion is represented by the Later Heaven bagua, and tao-in-stillness, by the Earlier Heaven bagua. Immortality can (and does) exist either in stillness or in motion. It is a common mistake to think of immortality as "stillness only," however taoist classics are full of explicit statements to the contrary -- "the way of tao is motion and the pattern of this motion is return." The bagua describes the way ("method") of tao, and the Five Phases, its pattern. "Return" is not a once-and-for-all deal, not a one-way ticket "to the source" -- unlike in Buddhism, in taoism, "to and fro goes the Way."

 

 

 

Look everyone, forget the talk about phases and the philosphy of it, and just think of your organs and meridians corisponding to each organ. Every single one of them has to work together and create a balanced whole. With 5 element alchemy( water, fire, wood, metal, earth), the final product, the fusion of different qi from running the creation/destruction cycles, will always be overly yin. The qi qill be overly yin, the emotions will be overly yin, and the manifest physical form will be overly yin.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Kundaolinyi

[松永道]

I think I kinda hear ya. I'm not trying to say 5 elemental alchemy isn't realy. I'm just saying it isn't the original truth. I think you're right, that we have to start with what we have, but like the old saying goes 'you can't begin to solve a problem until you recognize that you have one'.

Look everyone, forget the talk about phases and the philosphy of it, and just think of your organs and meridians corisponding to each organ. Every single one of them has to work together and create a balanced whole. With 5 element alchemy( water, fire, wood, metal, earth), the final product, the fusion of different qi from running the creation/destruction cycles, will always be overly yin. The qi qill be overly yin, the emotions will be overly yin, and the manifest physical form will be overly yin.

 

Kundaolinyi,

 

Don't abandon your theory. Since I've started studying Chinese Medicine I've held a similar idea. Now I endeavor to truly grasp the 5 Movements Theory, to give it due respect, but I do suspect that immortality comes in threes.

 

This his article on the Pure Yang Mudra, Master Wu Zhongxian contends that the fingers of the hand can form two trigrams or one hexagram although only five are visible. This, he explains, is because the 6th line or pair of fingers is hidden. Could it be that the five phases also contain a hidden sixth? Further more, the 6th hidden line is the top line. According to Wu, visible means yang, hidden means yin, in order to achieve the 1st Hexagram, pure yang heaven, with your hands you would need to find a way to transform your hidden 6th fingers into visible fingers.

 

Food for thought.

 

Also, one comment on your understanding of the Earth element. In terms of Yin and Yang, Wood is Yang within Yin, Fire is Yang within Yang, Metal is Yin within Yang, and Water is Yin within Yin. Earth is Tai Yin within Yin. When Yang or Yin have reached their greatest extent, Taiji (Taiji literally translates to "the utmost extreme"), they transform. Therefore Earth is best thought of as the boarder between Yin and Yang, it is the moment of transformation. Now here is where orthodox five elements leaves off and you need to pick up. Specifically, you could see Earth as the transformation from Yin to Yang, as Taiyin within Yin transforms into Yang - But what about the transformation from Yang to Yin? Taiyang within Yang?

 

You could say that the Five Elements Theory is an earthbound system, no pun intended.

 

I have a fair deal more theory on the matter but I'd rather not influence what you might come up with.

 

Any good researcher will both respect and doubt the orthodoxy.

Edited September 14, 2008 by 松永道

[seadog]

As human I live between heaven and earth and I'am subject to daily pressures and change.Today here now where I live it is very windy,the moon is nearly full, we are in spring the time of growth and movement.Understanding the qualities of the wood phase and how it applies to my own body I'am more prepared to organize my life in a effective manner I.e stay healthy which means I'am happy.

Because I know in terms of constitution the wood element seeks growth and movement and prefers bitter to sweet I chose my actions correspondingly. My life should follow the pattern of heaven and earth,which follow the movement of Dao. The vegetables in my garden follow this pattern. Early spring is th time for a flush bitter greens so I eat them, knowing that they will stimulate my liver and gall bladder,which in turn are aligned to wood the spring element.

 

The five element theory provides a standard of reference that allows us to characterize the functional dynamics inherent in any observable phenomena.This observation is then based on quality rather then structure, making the 5E system ideal for studying the non material aspect of being that resides in the domain of mind and spirit.

 

As our ancestor, the Dao's movement is present in all things to which it gives birth.In its movement away from and return to itself,the dao is centered on a axis or pole of emptiness.The four stages of movement and the central pivot (stage five) are present in later heaven as the four seasons and the five elements. As humans on earth this is where we reside.

 

I believe the five elements gives us a tool to help best align ourselves between heaven and earth and a means for us to express our nature and ultimately our destiny. To quote from Shen Nong Ben Cao,Chinas oldest herbal text.

 

"The upper class of medicines govern the nourishment of destiny and correspond with heaven.....If one whishes to prolong the years of life without aging one should use these.

 

The 5E model was implicit in virtually every discipline of ancient China. Considerations of the 5E thoery are foundational in domains as diverse as military strategy,the martial arts,architecture,painting,poetry,music and medicine.

You cannot delve into the richness of daoist philosphy without a comprehensive understanding of 5E theory and its apllication to subjects diverse as those stated above.This particularly holds true in regard to internal alchemy,which requires a firm grasp of physiology as undestood in terms Chinese organ and meridian systems and pertains to the upper class of medicines.

Edited September 14, 2008 by seadog

[Hua Dao]

edit

Edited September 14, 2008 by Hua Dao

[Duifang]

5 Elements. When viewed in the form of trigrams, each element is either 2 parts yin and 1 part yang, or 2 parts yang and 1 part yin. The exception to this is the 'earth' element which is 3 parts yin.

 

Irrefutably, when adding up each of 'bars' in the 5 trigrams, you will never come up with yin# = yang#. No mater what combination of 5 trigrams you try, you will either have more yin than yang bars, or more yang than yin bars. This is simple math.

 

5 elemental systems, therefore, are mathematically unbalanced. In a system that attempts to balance yin and yang, why are 5 element systems used?

 

....

 

Maybe I have something wrong on this one, but I think 5 elements cannot and will not ever equal balance. If balance is what we seek, and immortality is the result of balance, then 5 elemental alchemy is something to be acknowledged as a reality, but not as an original truth.

 

any thoughts?

(edited for spelling)

 

 

I think what you might be looking for in the 5 Elements is a "static balance". That exists only in mathematical abstractions, not in the living Tao. There is always transition through the balance point, then back, then back again. Like the cyclical transition between kinetic energy and potential energy in the swing of a pendulum. Like in the movements of Tai Chi. So to that end the 5 Elements Theory represents the living Tao.

 

-M-

[exorcist_1699]

The 5-E system , now mainly absorbed in TCM and Taoism , has much abundant contents and special implication than other cultures' ; They may look a little similar , however, if you mix it up with other cultures' ones, for example , Indain or old Greek at first look , you definitely overlook something very important .

[Guest allan]

5 Elements. When viewed in the form of trigrams, each element is either 2 parts yin and 1 part yang, or 2 parts yang and 1 part yin. The exception to this is the 'earth' element which is 3 parts yin.

 

Irrefutably, when adding up each of 'bars' in the 5 trigrams, you will never come up with yin# = yang#. No mater what combination of 5 trigrams you try, you will either have more yin than yang bars, or more yang than yin bars. This is simple math.

 

The very idea of 'being cut off from heaven' applies to the 5 element system. Earth is always thrown in the mix, but where is heaven? Heaven is sitting off to the side with the other 'universal forces' on the pakua watching the creation and destruction cycle.

 

But hey, far be it from me to use theory like that to explain why 5 elemental practice most likely encourages mortality, just look at the math.

 

Maybe I have something wrong on this one, but I think 5 elements cannot and will not ever equal balance.

 

 

Go figure out your maths again. Bagua means the eight trigrams.

 

 

Actually I've been practicing in line with these theories for quite some time and have enjoyed some results, but I didn't really want insult anyone by presenting it as fact.

 

In most traditional 5 element systems I've come across, it is not taught that Heaven is is part of the 5 elemental cycles.

 

Find out which trigram represent which 'element' and improve your theories.

 

I think I kinda hear ya. I'm not trying to say 5 elemental alchemy isn't realy. I'm just saying it isn't the original truth.

 

 

How would you know that the eight trigrams or the five phases ('elements') are not the original truth?

[Kundaolinyi]

Go figure out your maths again. Bagua means the eight trigrams.

Find out which trigram represent which 'element' and improve your theories.

How would you know that the eight trigrams or the five phases ('elements') are not the original truth?

 

LOL, I know there are 8 trigrams in the bagua. 5 of them are considered the 5 elements in the creation/destruction cycle that is comonly taught. -Which is what we are talking about here. I'll make it easy for you, I'll even post a pic so you don't have to get confused and continue to make arguments using facts that don't in the slightest bit contradict anything I said. Pentagram on Bagua (5 elements)

 

Count up how how many broken bars and unbroken bars there are amongst the 5 elements. The entire bagua as a whole has 12 broken bars and 12 unbroken bars, which is balanced mathamatically. The 5 elements have 9 broken bars and 6 unbroken bars, which is not mathamatically balanced.

 

My math appears to be fine.

 

"How would you know that the eight trigrams or the five phases ('elements') are not the original truth? "

 

The truth of the matter is, if I'm right about this, then I'm right about this... no matter 'how I know', and no matter what you believe. Same for if I'm wrong about it. I never said I know it anyway. And even if I'm wrong about this, I'm right to question it.

 

Please try and understand the content of the thread before you attempt to call someone out next time. I almost feel ungraceful responding to your comment, because it's hard to believe anyone here would actually do the 'troll' thing, and yet it seems so unlikely someone here would respond like this by sheer ignorance. Really, did you even read the first post?

Edited September 17, 2008 by Kundaolinyi

[Gerard]

Outside Samsara there is no more Yin and Yang. There is cessation of suffering, one has attained Nirvana.

[Guest allan]

LOL, I know there are 8 trigrams in the bagua. 5 of them are considered the 5 elements in the creation/destruction cycle that is comonly taught. -Which is what we are talking about here.

 

I'll make it easy for you, I'll even post a pic so you don't have to get confused and continue to make arguments using facts that don't in the slightest bit contradict anything I said. Pentagram on Bagua (5 elements)

 

Count up how how many broken bars and unbroken bars there are amongst the 5 elements. The entire bagua as a whole has 12 broken bars and 12 unbroken bars, which is balanced mathamatically. The 5 elements have 9 broken bars and 6 unbroken bars, which is not mathamatically balanced.

 

My math appears to be fine.

 

"How would you know that the eight trigrams or the five phases ('elements') are not the original truth? "

 

The truth of the matter is, if I'm right about this, then I'm right about this... no matter 'how I know', and no matter what you believe. Same for if I'm wrong about it. I never said I know it anyway. And even if I'm wrong about this, I'm right to question it.

 

Please try and understand the content of the thread before you attempt to call someone out next time. I almost feel ungraceful responding to your comment, because it's hard to believe anyone here would actually do the 'troll' thing, and yet it seems so unlikely someone here would respond like this by sheer ignorance. Really, did you even read the first post?

 

I tend to play around with the arrogant who boast that they know a lot but can only depict superficial knowledge on a profound subject of mutual interests.

 

Without a study of the Hetu (River Map) and the Loshu (Lo Writings) how much can anyone learn about the five states of change? If you intend to go deeper, try the ancient Book of Changes.

 

Few masters or grandmasters of Chinese martial arts (internal or external) can claim in-depth knowledge of the Bagua, the five states of change and the Book of Changes.

 

From what you have stated in this thread (and others), most probably your masters are among those who do not know, unless you were never a bright student of theirs, in the first place.

 

Be a bit more humble, and perhaps fellow members who have much deeper knowledge on the subject than you, your masters, or even your grandmasters, can teach you something more.

 

Anyway, I will return to the dark once more, since Heaven and Earth have already closed.

Bye.

[Kundaolinyi]

I tend to play around with the arrogant who boast that they know a lot but can only depict superficial knowledge on a profound subject of mutual interests.

 

Without a study of the Hetu (River Map) and the Loshu (Lo Writings) how much can anyone learn about the five states of change? If you intend to go deeper, try the ancient Book of Changes.

 

Few masters or grandmasters of Chinese martial arts (internal or external) can claim in-depth knowledge of the Bagua, the five states of change and the Book of Changes.

 

From what you have stated in this thread (and others), most probably your masters are among those who do not know, unless you were never a bright student of theirs, in the first place.

 

Be a bit more humble, and perhaps fellow members who have much deeper knowledge on the subject than you, your masters, or even your grandmasters, can teach you something more.

 

Anyway, I will return to the dark once more, since Heaven and Earth have already closed.

Bye.

Wait, after someone who obviously didn't read my post thoroughly attempts to 'call me out', you highlight the most attackable portion of my response to him/her and then form a vague campaign against my character, knowledge, and credentials?

 

Can we please just stick to the subject of the thread and try our best not to get into this bull? Really, let's not risk getting caught in a loop of 'I'm more humble than you, so I have the right to shame you for your lack of humility... oh wait, that's not humble of me to think that though'. We should all know by now that the number one pitfall in ego-mastery is getting arrogant about your ego-mastery. Maybe we should just skip all the ego v/s ego competition for who has the least ego, and get on with the actual subject matter. I'm really not interested in Taoist politics.

 

 

Bottom line, putting aside all flowery philosophical mumbo jumbo, claims of lineage or sources, and straight up dogma... no one has proven my math to be incorrect, nor have they shown any reason that my math is irrelevant. Some people have responded with their view on the 5 elements which I'm grateful for, although I still find that my math seems correct, and thus I'm sticking with my current theory.

 

 

 

5 elemental trigrams = 6 part yin, 9 part yang = yin and yang are not balanced

 

creation and destruction cycle = reincarnation and death cycle = mortality

 

escaping the cycle of death and reincarnation = escaping the creation and destruction cycle = immortality

 

many systems are teaching to embrace the creation / destruction cycle = wtf?

Edited September 19, 2008 by Kundaolinyi

[Guest allan]

[Kundaolinyi]

Edited September 21, 2008 by Kundaolinyi

[松永道]