The Max Christensen Facts Not Fiction Thread.

[Patrick Brown]

[joeblast]

Edited September 14, 2008 by joeblast

[Apech]

true in a sense, but you can no more remove the event horizon from the system than you can the hole itself. since you cant separate one from the other, you can logically say that the quantum effects on peripheral matter are ostensibly directly attributed to the hole itself. as far as an associated transmitting agent, since everything can at one time be traced to a single origin, there is no action at a distance...its been connected from the get go (of course, that is assuming the big bang model in some fashion is correct...it certainly seems to be so, but the universe is far more complex and mysterious than I can say with any certainty...) that's not to say that we're connected to every black hole in existence, but do the math and you can see that inexorably, we have been affected by many a black hole in some way or another, no matter how subtle.

 

as far as the DNA bit goes....is it that hard to envision or accept that high energies of some sorts can have an effect? watch these vids on how DNA replicates and have a second thought...reality doesnt necessarily lie within the realm of belief or disbelief. I'm not saying with certainty that this happens, but I do accept the plausibility, the possibility.

'tampering' is a selective description....do you not 'tamper' by doing qigong and meditation? your destiny is laregly in your own hands...

 

 

Joe,

 

I accept the connectivity idea and that we are undoubtedly affected by the big bang and so on. No problem. But I am trying to get my head round not the possible science but the things that the Kunlun claim as fact. I am not saying that Max is not tapping into Black Holes (although I must admit to having some doubt) I am questioning how he knows that he can do this. If he is actually drawing energy from Black Hole's radiation then he is claiming to absorb (I think ) mainly X-ray frequency elctromagnetic radiation form space. Well ... how?

 

If DNA is being changed then this would affect the cells being grown in the body and the new cells would be different in some observable way. Has this been tested empirically?

 

As far as I know Kunlun has not percolated to the UK where I live so I don't know that much about it in practice. But some of it sounds a bit like a form of Qi Gong I was taught in Manchester about 10 years ago by Master To. So I don't have a problem with it. Where I struggle is with what I feel are pseudo-scientific claims about how it works. At the risk of being shot down in flames I would have to say that this comes across as a form of marketing to make the whole thing appear more cosmic and powerful. In fact it is not unique to this particular school of teaching to come up with some dramatic presentation, some impressive but unverifiable lineage and the promise of the revelation of age old secrets. I am not saying Max is no good, or what he teaches doesn't work - I am just questioning why he and others do not just say "Hey, I can teach you some useful things that I have picked up, I can help you if you want, take it or leave it."

[Patrick Brown]

I am just questioning why he and others do not just say "Hey, I can teach you some useful things that I have picked up, I can help you if you want, take it or leave it."

We have a winner!

 

[Mantra68]

Patrick,

I understand you interest in trying to prove that Max is a fake, but trying to find a chink in the armor of what we have on our site is not the way.

 

First of all, you are in no way qualified to make an educated conclusion as to the how's and why's of the scientific basis of Kunlun and Maoshan energetics. As we say on our site (which is carefully omitted here), these explanations are the closest equivalent modern science has to explain the mechanisms at work.

 

You would be best off speaking with a quantum physicist because it is the ideas they explore that come closest to understanding the workings of the high-level Taoist.

 

As they say, "Taoists were the first form of quantum physicists. They could apply it, but couldn't explain it. Today's quantum physicists can explain it, but can't apply it."

 

Also, Max is FULLY capable of teaching all of the subjects listed on our site and many, many more. He is that knowledgeable.

 

Sorry to disappoint.

[Yoda]

Cat,

 

I constantly streak through weddings never noticed... they reluctantly acknowledged me at my own, but that's a long story.

 

I read a cool definition recently: Science is the process of making the esoteric exoteric.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[YMWong]

As they say, "Taoists were the first form of quantum physicists. They could apply it, but couldn't explain it. Today's quantum physicists can explain it, but can't apply it."

 

May I ask who are "they" (saying) in your quote ?

 

Thanks

 

YM

[Qui-Dao]

Patrick,

I understand you interest in trying to prove that Max is a fake, but trying to find a chink in the armor of what we have on our site is not the way.

 

First of all, you are in no way qualified to make an educated conclusion as to the how's and why's of the scientific basis of Kunlun and Maoshan energetics. As we say on our site (which is carefully omitted here), these explanations are the closest equivalent modern science has to explain the mechanisms at work.

 

You would be best off speaking with a quantum physicist because it is the ideas they explore that come closest to understanding the workings of the high-level Taoist.

 

As they say, "Taoists were the first form of quantum physicists. They could apply it, but couldn't explain it. Today's quantum physicists can explain it, but can't apply it."

 

Also, Max is FULLY capable of teaching all of the subjects listed on our site and many, many more. He is that knowledgeable.

 

Sorry to disappoint.

 

I thought the subject title of this thread is "..... Facts Not Fiction Thread.", can you refrain yourself from repeating your claims that are NOT FACTS, and allow those who might have something closer to fact expressing themselves? We hear you, but give us a break would you? If you do have any facts, many of of us would to hear, so just give us the facts in this thread, and leave the fictions in other threads please.

[xenolith]

As we say on our site (which is carefully omitted here), these explanations are the closest equivalent modern science has to explain the mechanisms at work.

With share of mechanisms credibility increases.

 

While withhold same said decreases.

 

I doubt you're able to articulate it..."feels like flying" hilarious!

[Smile]

From http://spirituality.meetup.com/76/calendar/8201489/

Kunlun Nei Kung (internal energy cultivation is a practice of gaining awareness of your body's internal energy and uses physical practices to accumulate that energy and ultimately use it to heal both yourself and others. At the highest levels it looks like those crazy Chinese martial arts films you saw as kids where the master sends people flying across the room with a wave of his hand.

 

The man in this trailer is Oscar's master, Max Christensen. Max is one of the four teachers every one hundred years that is allowed to leave the temple and bring the secret teachings of Kunlun to the world. Three of those four have retired from service and Max is the last.

So the last paragraph is incorrect, right?

[Mantra68]

I thought the subject title of this thread is "..... Facts Not Fiction Thread.", can you refrain yourself from repeating your claims that are NOT FACTS, and allow those who might have something closer to fact expressing themselves? We hear you, but give us a break would you? If you do have any facts, many of of us would to hear, so just give us the facts in this thread, and leave the fictions in other threads please.

OK. We have the "head" group all assembled in one place. Good. For you guys, these arts will take a very looong time, because the head will only take you so far. It has a cap. However, if you drop your mind into the true brain, the heart, you will find all of the answers you seek. The heart is omniscient, but the head will just give you a headache.

 

I am sure you are earger to jump on that bandwagon at this point... anyway....

 

My "claims" are nothing more than stating the facts of the internal mechanics of Taoist practices. The micro-cosmic orbit for example when done properly and with the right understanding or feeling will produce certain results. What is the right understanding? Feeling your way through it. The same holds true for many other practices, but the scientific basis of those practices falls into the realm of quantum physics. If you MUST try to analyze these things from a scientific point of view then this is where you need to start looking.

 

Internally, these practices are ALL FEELING and INTENT. When you perform them correctly you will be doing it from a feeling state. When you "use" the energy it will be from your intent. When you connect to another person's nervous system it will be an agreement that takes place at a soul level. A merging beyond the physical.

 

What is at the center of the sun? What is responsible for all of that energy? A vacuum. You have the same inside of you.

 

We are not saying that you actually reach out to a black hole in outer space and suck it dry. But the concept is the same, it just takes place internally. You actually access the zero point of each dan tien.

 

If you don't understand that, then you are not qualified to refute the explanations given. If you can't do what someone like Max can do then you have no place to tell them they are wrong when they try to give you clues as to where to look for the correct understanding.

 

You guys are bright and curious but you miss the point more often than not because you seem so hellbent on trying to prove a thing is not a thing. It is what it is.

 

If you don't like what you hear from me, go find a good Maoshan teacher. After a few years of proving yourself, he can be the one to tell you to empty your cup, cut off your head and sit down and learn. You will also find out why students get whacked ON THE HEAD.

[YMWong]

OK. We have the "head" group all assembled in one place.

 

[...]

 

If you don't like what you hear from me, go find a good Maoshan teacher.

 

Chris,

 

since your reply is addressed to "the group" I hope you don't mind me jumping in again.

 

The "good Maoshan teacher" you ask people to look for, I am afraid, would blow out all of your dreams.

 

Instead of asking others to do so, why don't you find one yourself ?

And I mean a REAL Maoshan teacher from a real lineage not a 'self-made' one with a six dollars hat bought on the web.

 

And before that, how can you speak for the Maoshan tradition ?

 

To become an apprentice, let alone a master, of any of the Three Mountains Alliance (two of which Max claim to belong to <sic> ) one has to receive the Registers, make the vows and take the Prohibitions (most of which Max would be breaking by the way he acts) so anyone with a minumum knowledge of Daoism can easily understand the situation.

 

Such a shame

 

YM

 

EDIT: By the way, I am glad for those that are happy with Max teachings. All is good in that respect. The "converted" by Derren Brown are even more happy to have found their way to God.

I am just sick and tired of hearing you guys speaking "on behalf" of a tradition you clearly have no clue about.

Edited September 15, 2008 by YMWong

[HupGerk]

It's been awhile since I took my uni physics classes but I do not remember anything about a vacuum producing energy at the centre of the Sun.

 

A nuclear fusion process on the other hand, primarily via the proton-proton cycle, is something that I do seem to remember.

 

HG

[joeblast]

I am just questioning why he and others do not just say "Hey, I can teach you some useful things that I have picked up, I can help you if you want, take it or leave it."

The funny thing is, he basically does say just that. If there werent a shitstorm of sorts to participate in...

 

This is all treading murky waters. Most of this verbiage here has some subjectivity to it. And then we get around to the notion of 'provable' 'facts'...I dont know if Max's DNA has been tested before and after, but other than that, what else is going on in this thread besides a word game? Chris' verbiage doesnt resonate with some of you, so more words are conjured up to try and point to this or that a little more closely...and none on either side mean much at all to me. Whether or not its a vortex, a vacuum, outward fusion pressue, zpe...those are fuzzy analogies to describe things we cant understand in a direct, concrete manner. The analogy that points toward the formless is what the meat of the matter is. The potential, the differential. Experiential.

 

So at some point, with our current levels of understanding, most the entire forum is a fallacy of sorts.

[Taomeow]

YM,

 

care to share what you know about the female hermits of the Maoshan tradition belonging to the School of the Immortal Way?

 

?..

[Patrick Brown]

Edited September 15, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[YMWong]

YM,

 

care to share what you know about the female hermits of the Maoshan tradition belonging to the School of the Immortal Way?

 

Taomeow,

 

traditional Daoism makes no gender difference in terms of giving everybody the possibility to practice and master the Daoist Arts. In chinese history only the Celestial Masters were guided, generation by generation, by the first male descendants but the school itself was open to females as well.

 

The Maoshan tradition was in fact basically founded by a lady, Wei Huacun, so to this day many lineal descendants are ladies pratictioners.

 

I am not sure about the "School of the Immortal Way" you refer to: what's the chinese name ?

The "Immortal Way" (Xian Dao) is actually simply another way of generally calling Daoism.

 

Maoshan (Shangqing Pai) is basically a derivative of Zhengyi (Orthodox One) tradition and during its history it has always been very much connected with both Zhengyi and the Lingbao Schools, all very orthodox in nature.

The impression of the common people about Maoshan as a place of only sorcerers and magic, exorcists and the likes has been very much created by the novels first and then by movies.

Most of those based on spirits and ghosts always depict a "Maoshan" wizard fighting with the evil ghosts.

But that, as I said, is mostly fictional.

 

Practices as explained by the KL group go in China under the name of "Red Head" or "unorthodox tradition".

Masters belonging to these traditions have existed for a very long time and are the direct derivative of the early shamans and mediums in China.

They are not addressed as "Daoshi" (Daoist) but they are "Fashi" or "Shigong".

While both categories overlap a little as they both do, thou in a different way, healing and services for the leaving only (orthodox) Daoists also perform for the death and do the classical rites of renewal.

 

The trasmission in the two groups is also very different.

While Daoists are ordained, receive a register, list of prohibitions and take vows the Red Head are taught in a system of 'brotherhood' instead of a father/son relationship.

 

The main difference, however, lies in the fact that "Red Head" continues the tradition of the shamans of the old times in which they practice the become a "medium" for higher energy/beings/spirits to go through them.

 

Daoists, on the other side, work toward the attainment of emptyness because in the Daoist Tradition the way to reach "Unity with Dao" (the goal of practice) requires that every image, every spirit, everything is *burned* and distroyed so that the pratictioner is totally empty and the Dao can then dwell inside her.

 

Best

 

YM

Edited September 15, 2008 by YMWong

[Aetherous]

This is pretty ugly. I personally won't reply here anymore.

 

_/\_

[joeblast]

Edited September 15, 2008 by joeblast

[Apech]

OK. We have the "head" group all assembled in one place. Good. For you guys, these arts will take a very looong time, because the head will only take you so far. It has a cap. However, if you drop your mind into the true brain, the heart, you will find all of the answers you seek. The heart is omniscient, but the head will just give you a headache.

 

I am sure you are earger to jump on that bandwagon at this point... anyway....

 

My "claims" are nothing more than stating the facts of the internal mechanics of Taoist practices. The micro-cosmic orbit for example when done properly and with the right understanding or feeling will produce certain results. What is the right understanding? Feeling your way through it. The same holds true for many other practices, but the scientific basis of those practices falls into the realm of quantum physics. If you MUST try to analyze these things from a scientific point of view then this is where you need to start looking.

 

Internally, these practices are ALL FEELING and INTENT. When you perform them correctly you will be doing it from a feeling state. When you "use" the energy it will be from your intent. When you connect to another person's nervous system it will be an agreement that takes place at a soul level. A merging beyond the physical.

 

What is at the center of the sun? What is responsible for all of that energy? A vacuum. You have the same inside of you.

 

We are not saying that you actually reach out to a black hole in outer space and suck it dry. But the concept is the same, it just takes place internally. You actually access the zero point of each dan tien.

 

If you don't understand that, then you are not qualified to refute the explanations given. If you can't do what someone like Max can do then you have no place to tell them they are wrong when they try to give you clues as to where to look for the correct understanding.

 

You guys are bright and curious but you miss the point more often than not because you seem so hellbent on trying to prove a thing is not a thing. It is what it is.

 

If you don't like what you hear from me, go find a good Maoshan teacher. After a few years of proving yourself, he can be the one to tell you to empty your cup, cut off your head and sit down and learn. You will also find out why students get whacked ON THE HEAD.

 

 

Thanks for this answer - and although I don't like being called a "head" it does give some clarification about the black hole thing. By the way I am personally committed to understanding and not fruitless argument. I don't see anything wrong with this because as one of my teachers said "test everything to destruction - and if it stands up use it," also I believe the Lord Buddha said something along the lines of 'question everything'. How else do we get to the truth?

 

When you say: "What is at the center of the sun? What is responsible for all of that energy? A vacuum. You have the same inside of you.

 

We are not saying that you actually reach out to a black hole in outer space and suck it dry. But the concept is the same, it just takes place internally. You actually access the zero point of each dan tien. "

 

Well two things - as someone else has pointed out there isn't a vacuum at the centre of the sun - but there is a theory that there is a mini black hole there. As far as I know this hasn't been generally accepted in the scientific community - but hey.

 

The idea that you tune into something inside of you which is analogous or linked to the black holes in deep space is interesting. Buddha nature or immanent spirit as a core of pure potential/power, formless and self transparent, creative and yet untouched by what it creates could I suppose be compared to a black hole. Reaching 'point zero' of each dan tien is also a nice way of putting it.

 

However I do believe the web site says something about tapping in to the energy of black holes and I still have a problem with the DNA changing idea.

 

I would say generally that it is very tempting to quote quantum physics to explain things - but once you do, in order to be properly accepted you have to show that your explanations are consistent with the scientific discipline itself. I would suggest that you would be hard put to find a single physicist who would accept that the microcosmic orbit can be explained using quantum mechanics. Indeed to quote Richard Feynman - no-one understands quantum thermodynamics - so even if you were to show some kind of a link it doesn't really explain anything. I once saw a BBC programme on this where people such as Deeprak Chopra were questioned about their assertions by Richard Dawkins and I never saw such a rapid retreat in my life.

 

I am still not clear whether the black hole thing is central to Kunlun teachings or just a kind of analogy.

 

My final point is that while I accept that removing meaningless chitter chatter from our HEADS is necessary I do not accept that this means suspending your critical faculties - gentle as doves and wise as serpents.

[Patrick Brown]

Hmm well whether people believe my good intentions when starting this thread is up to them but as always Max and Kunlun remain unsubstantiated.

 

I might further add that physical sensations, inexplicable experiences and the invoking of emotional states has nothing to do with enlightenment or spiritual progress but everything to do with 'mind-jobbing'.

 

There's always someone more clever so drop being clever:

 

 

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZroxXmFovc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZroxXmFovc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZroxXmFovc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

 

And just to really annoy you Derren is gay!

[Patrick Brown]

My final point is that while I accept that removing meaningless chitter chatter from our HEADS is necessary I do not accept that this means suspending your critical faculties - gentle as doves and wise as serpents.

Yes.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[HupGerk]

apepch7,

 

About the idea of a black hole at the centre of the sun, are you thinking about the theories of Russian physicist Trofimenko and the heating of objects in space through Hawkins radiation?

 

HG

[Apech]

apepch7,

 

About the idea of a black hole at the centre of the sun, are you thinking about the theories of Russian physicist Trofimenko and the heating of objects in space through Hawkins radiation?

 

HG

 

To be honest I am not sure whose theory it is but I know it has been suggested that the presence of black holes is responsible for some of the more energetic events and yes it would have to be Hawkins radiation because apart from this black holes are not emitters. I believe that there is evidence of a balck hole at the centre of our galaxy.

 

Hmm well whether people believe my good intentions when starting this thread is up to them but as always Max and Kunlun remain unsubstantiated.

 

I might further add that physical sensations, inexplicable experiences and the invoking of emotional states has nothing to do with enlightenment or spiritual progress but everything to do with 'mind-jobbing'.

 

There's always someone more clever so drop being clever:

 

 

 

And just to really annoy you Derren is gay!

 

 

Patrick - What's wrong with being gay?

[Patrick Brown]

Patrick - What's wrong with being gay?

Nothing