The Max Christensen Facts Not Fiction Thread.

[Patrick Brown]

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OK I think I figured out how he did the end bit. The only person that saw what was written on the board was the girl writing down the peoples predictions. So Derren simply turns the board over and there is a series of numbers on the reverse which he had written down himself earlier and of course he knew they would add up to 136.

How he 'mind-jobbed' the women into selecting 136 I don't now as we didn't see and hear what was going on as they all walked up to the jar of candy to make their predictions. Of course if the women hadn't selected 136 he could have just skipped that part of the trick. We also have to consider that he may have done this several times on different groups of people so the probability that he would select the correct person would be increased.

EDIT:

That clip is 6.31 making it 136 Edited September 15, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[wudangquan]

1.

 

I'm still waiting on an invitation from Max or Max's dude to verify Master Wu Xiao Deng as having Wudang lineage.

 

There are still plenty of people alive who would have been his contemporaries, and I can check with them.

 

Also, I can ask to check records about it.

 

The only thing that would be helpful (although not necessary) is to know which sect he was from, and any distinction between his Chinese given name and any post initiate Taoist given names.

 

I will ask the people. I will ask to see the records. I will video it and put it on youtube and you can embed it on your own site if you like.

 

I think it would be a wonderful testimonial and go a long way towards making the "heads" feel more comfortable, or at least getting them to quiet down.

 

I think verifying that as a fact would be a very good addition to this thread.

 

I also really haven't checked into this yet, so I don't know what the answer is.

 

It's probably polite to caveat though, to say that my personal opinion is that something even worse than fraud is going on (because if it were vacuum cleaners, I wouldn't really care).

 

With that being said, I am willing to admit my own mistakes and short sightedness, and while I don't believe almost anything that's provided as his back story, I will emphatically endorse his Wudang training if it's verifiable.

 

 

-----------------------------------------

 

2.

 

I didn't want to try the red sun practice on myself, but without saying outlandish and irresponsible things in a public forum, I have some way that I sometimes test these kinds of things when I'm interested.

 

I did several thousand times.

 

Here's what I would say (just my opinion based on experience) about what is happening in this practice:

 

1. Your using a lot of intention, with the dissolving of the body.

2. You're cutting off your oxygen.

3. You're open to a mystical or transcendent experience.

 

What I would say is going on is that if you can actually do this practice successfully, (which I don't think alot of people can), is that:

 

1. You are lowering your levels of oxygenated blood

2. You are restricting the flow of oxygen to your brain

3. You are are probably putting a great deal of stress on the pineal gland (if you can actually get very far with this, but again I think it's very difficult for normal people) and the brain in general through oxygen deprivation.

4. The oxygen deprived brain is going into shock or a mini shock and causing seratonins and trypto's to decompose

5. The decomposed trypto and seratonins are breaking down into some kind of post cursor (sorry I don't kow the proper medical word), similar to DMT.

6. The release of the decomposed chemicals along with a certain high amount of intent is causing a specific experience

 

Having said all of that, I think that it's perfectly valid.

 

Putting heavy shock, strain, or protracted stress on the pineal is something that happens in alot of Taoist traditions, like cave meditation, the story about Wang Liping being buried, etc.

 

So I have to say that my personal opinion is that this technique works, and is congruent with other practices.

 

I think . . . you know - that the thing with this sort of thing is that you have to be careful about what you're after.

 

For anybody who's ever played around with this stuff and has gotten anywhere with it, you know that you can access some pretty profound things, and often times some malevolent things.

 

Most people probably don't have the will power to do it in the first place, so it doesn't really matter.

 

But . . . again (my personal feeling only) is that you have to be careful about how you approach something like this, because if your trying to get some specific thing, you might get it. The issue I guess is what you get it from.

Edited September 15, 2008 by wudangquan

[Patrick Brown]

Edited September 15, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[wudangquan]

Patrick,

 

Part of what he is doing is the language . . .

"Bear in mind"

"nominate"

 

etc.

 

The other half of this is just the placement of the people and a figure/ground trick I think.

 

The language stuff is pretty easy to pick up on . . . Like very conversational salesmen who would say something like "by now you're probably wondering how much this thing is going to cost you, right?"

 

So since you're shopping and thinking of purchasing something, the brain is confused on a subconcious level about whether he's saying by now (at this point) or buy now (purchase immediately), but your main consciousness assumes it's the first one, and then he asks for agreement, so subconciously you've already agreed to "buy now".

 

It's more complicated than that, and it takes lots of additional reinforcement, but it's pretty easy to do.

 

The figure ground stuff is interesting . . .

 

Paul Scheele (http://www.learningstrategies.com), the hypnotist that Chunyi Lin (Spring Forest Qigong) is connected with does some interesting stuff around this.

 

I watched him make a crowded auditorium of peoples body parts grow bigger or smaller in real time once.

 

It is all down to Gestalt and basic figure ground perception, but it's really cool and I used to do that on my university students all the time.

[Taomeow]

YM,

 

thanks for your response, it clarifies a lot for me re where your objections are coming from. Shanggzing Pai founded by Wei Huacun is a different Maoshan! -- a mystical orthodox school Max has never made a peep about. And what you refer to as the "mostly fictional" school of magical Maoshan is nothing but -- wasn't it founded by Mao Xing and his brothers?.. Why are you saying it's fictional? -- I refer you to Isabelle Robinet's and Eva Wong's scholarly accounts for confirmation of its real-life existence. (I'm sure there's scores more but I don't have any more references handy at the moment.) Interestingly enough, "what a shame," your exclamation addressed to Max, was something Mao Xing's father used to tell him, he was also opposed to "magic tricks" and kicked his would-be-immortal son out of the house so the latter don't "shame the family." Mao Xing had to actually raise someone from the dead before his father and his brothers (who later became his students) even began to take him seriously. Looks like not much has changed since early Han dynasty times!

 

I mentioned female hermits not because I was assuming or implying "gender discrimination" but because some of the practices of Maoshan were only transmitted to women for the longest time, and Max mentioned his female teachers. School of the Immortal Way -- I am translating from Russian, not from Chinese, I don't know what the name really is in Chinese OR English, but that's what a real-life female hermit once mentioned to me, in a context unrelated to Max, years ago. I know very little about her lineage, and I was wondering if you may have heard something from a reputable source and could help me figure out the arcane family ties of the Buryat-shamanic/Tibetan buddhist/Maoshan amalgam in existence where I come from.

 

Well, not really. It was tongue-in-cheek... I know you can't know. But YM, don't you know how HUGE Maoshan used to be? -- with tens of thousands of temples, with ten schools of the Magical Sect alone?.. Don't you think it is at least plausible that you might not know EVERYTHING about it?..

 

Taomeow,

 

traditional Daoism makes no gender difference in terms of giving everybody the possibility to practice and master the Daoist Arts. In chinese history only the Celestial Masters were guided, generation by generation, by the first male descendants but the school itself was open to females as well.

 

The Maoshan tradition was in fact basically founded by a lady, Wei Huacun, so to this day many lineal descendants are ladies pratictioners.

 

I am not sure about the "School of the Immortal Way" you refer to: what's the chinese name ?

The "Immortal Way" (Xian Dao) is actually simply another way of generally calling Daoism.

 

Maoshan (Shangqing Pai) is basically a derivative of Zhengyi (Orthodox One) tradition and during its history it has always been very much connected with both Zhengyi and the Lingbao Schools, all very orthodox in nature.

The impression of the common people about Maoshan as a place of only sorcerers and magic, exorcists and the likes has been very much created by the novels first and then by movies.

Most of those based on spirits and ghosts always depict a "Maoshan" wizard fighting with the evil ghosts.

But that, as I said, is mostly fictional.

 

Practices as explained by the KL group go in China under the name of "Red Head" or "unorthodox tradition".

Masters belonging to these traditions have existed for a very long time and are the direct derivative of the early shamans and mediums in China.

They are not addressed as "Daoshi" (Daoist) but they are "Fashi" or "Shigong".

While both categories overlap a little as they both do, thou in a different way, healing and services for the leaving only (orthodox) Daoists also perform for the death and do the classical rites of renewal.

 

The trasmission in the two groups is also very different.

While Daoists are ordained, receive a register, list of prohibitions and take vows the Red Head are taught in a system of 'brotherhood' instead of a father/son relationship.

 

The main difference, however, lies in the fact that "Red Head" continues the tradition of the shamans of the old times in which they practice the become a "medium" for higher energy/beings/spirits to go through them.

 

Daoists, on the other side, work toward the attainment of emptyness because in the Daoist Tradition the way to reach "Unity with Dao" (the goal of practice) requires that every image, every spirit, everything is *burned* and distroyed so that the pratictioner is totally empty and the Dao can then dwell inside her.

 

Best

 

YM

[Patrick Brown]

Edited September 15, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[wudangquan]

[Patrick Brown]

Thanx wudangquan, all very interesting and yes I'm aware most people use a kind of NLP.

 

I just want to stick with Derren for a little while longer. I love Derren as he's waking people up to so much stuff that I doubt they knew was going on. Now this is pretty amazing stuff:

 

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[Mantra68]

You guys are really barking up the wrong tree.

 

If you think you can begin to understand anything about applied Taoism from this approach, you will find yourselves very disappointed.

 

Direct experience is the only way. Direct experience will answer everything. The problem with direct experience is it is hard to come by.

 

You have an opportunity now to find out the secret ways of tradition. If you squander that by forcing yourself to accept an inaccurate perception of how things are, then you have remained safe but blown the opportunity.

 

I am trying to give a glimpse into the world of Maoshan magic (for lack of a better word) so that you have an insight that will function like an alchemical key that will continue to open doors internally for you. What I have told you is the true understanding at the practitioner level. But we have come to the impasse where the next step is for you to find out for yourself or continue to speculate indefinitely.

 

These things are the least of the important "scientific" insanity that is really taking place at this time.

 

Our reality is shifting so rapidly that our paradigm is being forced to change whether we like it or not. The rug is being pulled out and almost everything you think you know will be proven wrong. It will not be easy for most people.

 

But then you may come to the point where you will remember.

 

The part of you that knows things will remember the big picture and you will have the satori awakening you have been craving. You'll stand and look through your third eye with clarity and say "Oh yeah, I can't believe I forgot this..."

 

So do all your mathin' and cursin' now, because soon you won't need it. This conversation will be reduced to a tiny spec of mental snafu on the dusty road of our collective history.

 

In the mean time, practitioners (people who actually do the practices) are fearlessly finding out the truth. They are experiencing the weirdness of the Tao and it is beautiful and personally satisfying.

 

Don't sell yourselves short.

 

Harmonize your heart and the sweet beauty of our absurd existence will be known to you too. Then all of this talky-talk will go bye-bye where it belongs.

 

Praise Jesus.

 

Don't listen to me, find out for yourself if you really want to know something useful.

[Patrick Brown]

You guys are really barking up the wrong tree.

 

If you think you can begin to understand anything about applied Taoism from this approach, you will find yourselves very disappointed.

 

Direct experience is the only way. Direct experience will answer everything. The problem with direct experience is it is hard to come by.

 

You have an opportunity now to find out the secret ways of tradition. If you squander that by forcing yourself to accept an inaccurate perception of how things are, then you have remained safe but blown the opportunity.

 

I am trying to give a glimpse into the world of Maoshan magic (for lack of a better word) so that you have an insight that will function like an alchemical key that will continue to open doors internally for you. What I have told you is the true understanding at the practitioner level. But we have come to the impasse where the next step is for you to find out for yourself or continue to speculate indefinitely.

 

These things are the least of the important "scientific" insanity that is really taking place at this time.

 

Our reality is shifting so rapidly that our paradigm is being forced to change whether we like it or not. The rug is being pulled out and almost everything you think you know will be proven wrong. It will not be easy for most people.

 

But then you may come to the point where you will remember.

 

The part of you that knows things will remember the big picture and you will have the satori awakening you have been craving. You'll stand and look through your third eye with clarity and say "Oh yeah, I can't believe I forgot this..."

 

So do all your mathin' and cursin' now, because soon you won't need it. This conversation will be reduced to a tiny spec of mental snafu on the dusty road of our collective history.

 

In the mean time, practitioners (people who actually do the practices) are fearlessly finding out the truth. They are experiencing the weirdness of the Tao and it is beautiful and personally satisfying.

 

Don't sell yourselves short.

 

Harmonize your heart and the sweet beauty of our absurd existence will be known to you too. Then all of this talky-talk will go bye-bye where it belongs.

 

Praise Jesus.

 

Don't listen to me, find out for yourself if you really want to know something useful.

Good grief Chris you're losing it mate!

 

Just one question:

 

1. How do you Know I'm not enlightened?

[Mantra68]

Good grief Chris you're losing it mate!

 

Just one question:

 

1. How do you Know I'm not enlightened?

A better question is, why would I care? The problem with enlightenment is not acheiving the state, but staying there.

 

Crazy wisdom is the way.

[wudangquan]

Hi Chris,

 

Since you are the person here who is dealing with the majority of this stuff, I wanted to say to you personally that I don't have a problem with you as a person and would probably like you if we met.

 

I'm also not trying to change anybody's mind about your stuff or tell anyone not to do it. What they do is their business.

 

I also know that I can't really change anyone's mind. People make decisions based on emotion, and then rationalize as to why.

 

Like a 50 year old guy buys a fancy dancy set of golf clubs for himself. After the fact he tells himself this story about why he did it "Because it was a great value, it's going to improve my swing, the shaft is made of this lighter alloy which is more wind resistant, etc." but those are post facto rationalizations. The real reason he made the purchase was an emotional one. So he could ruck up on the golf course and impress his buddies, or whatever.

 

And you'll never change his mind, if he comes to an explicit conclusion on his own.

 

If you keep saying "Max has the heart of a Boddhisatva" (implicit), and people explicitly decide "Max is a Boddhisatva" - I'm not going to change their mind, and they'll defend that decision all the way until the end because it was one that they "made" themselves.

 

I just see some things. . .

 

[X] Magic bullet (quick quick)

[X] Home town boy makes good

[X] Loss and redemption

[X] The mysterious stranger

[X] Scarcity

[X] Social Proof

[X] Reciprocity play (Free videos, techniques which probably will work and if they dont' it's because you were'nt strong/pure/faithful/whatever enough)

etc.

 

I could blast a receptive person with enough energy to make their nervous system shut down and go unconcious (they used to do this at my pentecostal church as a kid!), and then afterwards they would be ready to go to war with anyone who even questioned it.

 

There's no point in trying to change the converted.

 

I just think that . . . There is real stuff out there, and when the mess that is being made becomes obvious, people are going to be closed off to even the notion of any more Taoist cultivation.

 

The thing is, I personally believe what you guys are doing is dangerous, and I believe that there is a lot of clear and obvious carrot sticking and downright untruth being done.

 

But, I don't dislike you or hate you as a person or something, and I'm not even sure that you're in on the work (but it is a work).

 

I thought about doing the flim flam before myself - a fact which I'm not proud of. It was a long time ago, but I had pretty serious intentions about it.

 

And then I found myself in a vacuum, and a box with something very nasty flew up to my chest and I got bitten.

 

I was in there in that state for a VERY long time, and almost died from the venom. I was dying, for sure. And then I enlightened to the fact that the intention was the venom, or that there was at least a direct correlation.

 

But it wasn't enough to change my mind or "decide" not to do it. I had to completely push the thought out of every dimension of my being. At every level I cleared it out, there was a corresponding improvement in my condition, until finally I was ok again.

 

. . .

 

The reason I am telling you that is just so that maybe you can understand me in some way.

 

If I'm completely wrong, I ask your forgiveness, and hopefully I'll realize it.

 

If I'm not wrong, I ask you to consider the consequences for your self in what you're doing.

 

But either way, I don't want a fight.

 

Take care, man . . .

[wudangquan]

Patrick,

 

The first part with the PIN number is just eye tracking.

 

A good NLP practitioner, or even alot of people who haven't been trained, guys who do other stuff, like HUNA, etc. - they all know how to pick up on this pretty easily.

 

You have a casual conversation (maybe off camera) to pick up on someones physical responses with controlled lines of questioning, and then you've got their "tells".

 

Works in poker, too.

 

The second part was that her subconscious (and probably the other peoples too) just picked up on what he clearly wrote on the paper.

 

If you watch the video again, even with the back of the notepad facing you, you can clearly see that he's writing "black".

 

 

Although I have to admit that my first thought was that he was making a hand gesture of a cocks whatchamacallit on the top of it's head with his hand, and talking about "plucking" something right out of thin air, so I thought it was going to be a suggestion related to chicken or birds.

 

I had to watch that part twice to see what he was doing, because it was just so simple. I (and they) were expecting something much more interesting, but it's actually very mundane, so your main consciousness doesn't catch it, but your sub does. Misdirection.

 

 

Here's another fun one:

 

"You're right not to want to feel left behind, so just go ahead and give Jonathans down home country goodness Qigong a try for yourself".

 

Brain can't determine whether left/right is a spatial value (left direction, right direction) or a value judgement (correct, within your rights, etc.) and the cognitive process spins out of control like working on a Zen koan and then you hit them with the command.

 

And then there's my favorite - Pressure stacking. haha

Edited September 15, 2008 by wudangquan

[Patrick Brown]

A better question is, why would I care? The problem with enlightenment is not acheiving the state, but staying there.

That is true but it's more a case of realising you always have been there and letting go of the blinkers. All the fancy mystical practices are worthless in the face of 'here and now' but who is not taken from that eternal moment of conception? I think being a bum and being real is the way and most, if not all, of the other stuff is simply the trappings of ego driven desire.

 

You can't hold onto it Chris you can only move towards it. The eternal return is letting go and if you can't let go you can't return.

 

The thing is, I personally believe what you guys are doing is dangerous, and I believe that there is a lot of clear and obvious carrot sticking and downright untruth being done.

This is my worry also as not many understand the Lion as the 'good shepherd' and even less understand the sacrifice of the Snow Lion.

[Patrick Brown]

[Patrick Brown]

You guys are really barking up the wrong tree.

 

If you think you can begin to understand anything about applied Taoism from this approach, you will find yourselves very disappointed.

 

Direct experience is the only way. Direct experience will answer everything. The problem with direct experience is it is hard to come by.

 

You have an opportunity now to find out the secret ways of tradition. If you squander that by forcing yourself to accept an inaccurate perception of how things are, then you have remained safe but blown the opportunity.

 

I am trying to give a glimpse into the world of Maoshan magic (for lack of a better word) so that you have an insight that will function like an alchemical key that will continue to open doors internally for you. What I have told you is the true understanding at the practitioner level. But we have come to the impasse where the next step is for you to find out for yourself or continue to speculate indefinitely.

 

These things are the least of the important "scientific" insanity that is really taking place at this time.

 

Our reality is shifting so rapidly that our paradigm is being forced to change whether we like it or not. The rug is being pulled out and almost everything you think you know will be proven wrong. It will not be easy for most people.

 

But then you may come to the point where you will remember.

 

The part of you that knows things will remember the big picture and you will have the satori awakening you have been craving. You'll stand and look through your third eye with clarity and say "Oh yeah, I can't believe I forgot this..."

 

So do all your mathin' and cursin' now, because soon you won't need it. This conversation will be reduced to a tiny spec of mental snafu on the dusty road of our collective history.

 

In the mean time, practitioners (people who actually do the practices) are fearlessly finding out the truth. They are experiencing the weirdness of the Tao and it is beautiful and personally satisfying.

 

Don't sell yourselves short.

 

Harmonize your heart and the sweet beauty of our absurd existence will be known to you too. Then all of this talky-talk will go bye-bye where it belongs.

 

Praise Jesus.

 

Don't listen to me, find out for yourself if you really want to know something useful.

NLP???

 

[Mantra68]

NLP???

 

I don't know what NLP is, so whatever man. I am just trying to answer some questions.

 

You can refute facts all day (if that is what floats your boat), but this bullsh*t ends with practice.

 

It ends with surrendering to your heart and harmonizing your whole body and allowing the scintillating bliss of the divine to activate in every cell. Realizing your true nature and that we are all perfect and omnipotent beyond our current limited understanding.

 

That is what really matters.

[Patrick Brown]

I don't know what NLP is, so whatever man. I am just trying to answer some questions.

 

You can refute facts all day (if that is what floats your boat), but this bullsh*t ends with practice.

 

It ends with surrendering to your heart and harmonizing your whole body and allowing the scintillating bliss of the divine to activate in every cell. Realizing your true nature and that we are all perfect and omnipotent beyond our current limited understanding.

 

That is what really matters.

So where does Kunlun come into it?

 

It doesn't.

 

Unless of course it's a money thing!!!!!!

 

EDIT:

 

"You can refute facts all day"

 

What fucking facts are they then boy?

Edited September 15, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[Mantra68]

So where does Kunlun come into it?

 

It doesn't.

 

Unless of course it's a money thing!!!!!!

Well Patrick, that is a really good question but a wacko conclusion.

 

Kunlun, as many have found, is a practice that helps clear the clouds that block the sun. Or more specifically, it clears the energetic patterns that we hold that prevent us from from living as clear channels for the divine light.

 

What does that mean to you? Specifically it can help you kick the booze because the pattern that causes the behavior will be blown out and replaced with a nice bubbly flow of bliss and void.

 

Suspend conclusion until you have first hand experience, otherwise you sound no different than someone who gives movie reviews of films they've never seen.

[Patrick Brown]

[Smile]

Patrick, I don't think he is using it. Or... it's a really bad skill.

If you read any advertisement description, there is always a ton of this stuff. Just because someone says "It's really good for you" or "if you practice Kunlun, you gain a wonderful sense of well-being and good health"-just because they may say that, it doesn't mean they are using NLP.

Still for the NLP people, especially those that practice spiritual arts, it maybe very obvious when someone is using mind tricks to guide people to gain raport. Again I don't see Chris doing it for one reason. To me, to be good in this stuff, you need to put for the right type of energy the does all the hypnosis. I've seen people saying simple things and you just drift away in the la-la land. I've also seen others try to do the most amaising hidden NLP rutines and you see the intent and just laugh at them.

I don't see the intent here.

[Patrick Brown]

I don't see the intent here.

I do.

 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Smile]

And, btw, Derren is known to use actors (paid extras).

[Patrick Brown]

And, btw, Derren is known to use actors (paid extras).

So where's the proof, please?

 

Oh a bit like Max?

[Spirit Ape]

I cant believe you still going on with this Browny? Why not just try the practice and then talk about it rather talk about how you going to upstage Max's Kunlun when you are a pisshead!!!

 

Max has done alot more for people then what you have get over your Ego and just be happy with yourself.....