The Max Christensen Facts Not Fiction Thread.

[Patrick Brown]

I cant believe you still going on with this Browny? Why not just try the practice and then talk about it rather talk about how you going to upstage Max's Kunlun when you are a pisshead!!!

 

Max has done alot more for people then what you have get over your Ego and just be happy with yourself.....

What's Max teaching? Some fake system which gives you a buzz and then fucks you up! I mean look at Chris he's turned into a complete fuck-head! Am I wrong? Lets all kiss the gurus arse because his shit smells so sweet!!!!

 

Fucking wake up.

 

I've been very ZEN today so please don't misconstrue.

 

JUST...

[Smile]

So where's the proof, please?

 

Oh a bit like Max?

Not all the time but in some episodes as extras. Search "Derren Brown uses actors". Btw, his NLP skill is amazing.

3Vz_YTNLn6w

Edit, also consider that there might be many failed trials and only few are included in the episode. Still, he is very impressive.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Smile

[Patrick Brown]

[Spirit Ape]

Yeah, Derren brown is a MASTER for sure of NLP, do they teach this type of NLP or does he have a different way of NLP?

[Pero]

Uh, if I remember right, Derren doesn't use NLP alone or even at all sometimes, but just makes it look like he is. I think someone mentioned once that he said so himself too... He's a magician after all.

[Patrick Brown]

Yeah, Derren brown is a MASTER for sure of NLP, do they teach this type of NLP or does he have a different way of NLP?

I think it's an aspect of 'true magic' that he's giving out. He probably got it from several teachhers and he has really done his home work. Pretty sure he's a member of the magic circle so that's a starter although I wonder if he didn't have a few hidden masters i.e. Occultist's.

 

Hey he's a good guy telling us how we're getting fucked.

[i_am_sam]

What's Max teaching? Some fake system which gives you a buzz and then fucks you up! I mean look at Chris he's turned into a complete fuck-head! Am I wrong? Lets all kiss the gurus arse because his shit smells so sweet!!!!

 

Fucking wake up.

 

I've been very ZEN today so please don't misconstrue.

 

JUST...

 

Patrick

 

Obviously you feel strongly about this, but weknew this already

 

Why start another thread, especially titled as it is, and post using language like this including a personal attack? If your heartfelt desire is to change peoples views on Kunlun you're going about it the wrong way. If all you want to do is rage against it, don't.

 

Chill.

 

You attitude reminds me of those conspiracy theorists (I'd admit to being one), which you are also so quick to dismiss.

 

Must be a passion thing.

 

Accept the world in its variety and recognise that what you may see as fakery, NLP, $$$ deception, whatever may also be anothers true path for that is possible.

 

[YMWong]

YM,

 

thanks for your response, it clarifies a lot for me re where your objections are coming from. Shanggzing Pai founded by Wei Huacun is a different Maoshan! -- a mystical orthodox school Max has never made a peep about. And what you refer to as the "mostly fictional" school of magical Maoshan is nothing but -- wasn't it founded by Mao Xing and his brothers?.. Why are you saying it's fictional? -- I refer you to Isabelle Robinet's and Eva Wong's scholarly accounts for confirmation of its real-life existence. (I'm sure there's scores more but I don't have any more references handy at the moment.)

 

IT IS the same school, Taomeow, in that the Mao brothers are the reputed (legendary ?) ancestors of the Maoshan tradition that was then transmitted to Yang Xi by Madame Wei Huacun.

 

I quote Isabelle Robinet (a personal friend for many years) here:

 

"Between 367 and 370, a certain Yang Hsi was visited in the middle of the night by a group fo immortals, among whom was Lady Wei Hua Tsun who had died about 30 years previously. She was the one who revealed most of the texts of Great Purity to Yang Hsi. Lady Wei herself was said to have received these texts during a revelation involving the apparition of her master, Wang Po. According to the great Taoist theorist Tao Hung-ching (456-536), the appearance of the Mao-shan texts dates to this period.

 

The tradition itself, however, claims that its origins go back to the Mao brothers who, in the first century BCE, retreated to the mountain that subsequently was named after them"

 

Taoist Meditation

Isabelle Robinet, Julian F. Pas, Norman J. Girardot

 

The Maoshan tradition has been called Shangqing Pai as of the times of Yang Xi.

 

The fictional "Maoshan" I refer to is the one depicted in many novels and movies, but it's hard for somebody who was born and raised overseas to know what I am talking about I guess.

 

I mentioned female hermits not because I was assuming or implying "gender discrimination" but because some of the practices of Maoshan were only transmitted to women for the longest time, and Max mentioned his female teachers. School of the Immortal Way -- I am translating from Russian, not from Chinese, I don't know what the name really is in Chinese OR English, but that's what a real-life female hermit once mentioned to me, in a context unrelated to Max, years ago. I know very little about her lineage, and I was wondering if you may have heard something from a reputable source and could help me figure out the arcane family ties of the Buryat-shamanic/Tibetan buddhist/Maoshan amalgam in existence where I come from.

 

As I explained, without an actual chinese name the "School of Immortal Way" (Xian Dao) is simply another way of saying "Daoism".

 

Well, not really. It was tongue-in-cheek... I know you can't know. But YM, don't you know how HUGE Maoshan used to be? -- with tens of thousands of temples, with ten schools of the Magical Sect alone?.. Don't you think it is at least plausible that you might not know EVERYTHING about it?..

 

Rotfl !

 

Have you ever been to Maoshan, Taomeow ?

 

Maoshan is a small mountain, a hill actually, possibly one of the smallest "daoist mountain" in China.

With its peak reaching 372 meters above see level could barely fit a few dozen temples, even in the past, let alone your "tens of thousands of temples".

 

You guys are a funny bunch

 

YM

[Taomeow]

 

You guys are a funny bunch

 

YM

I'm no "you guys" to you mister. Maoshan Magical is not the same as Maoshan Mystical, according to Eva Wong, is she one of the funny guys in your book too? "Tens of thousands of temples" are mentioned by Yang Li, professor at the Graduate Department of the TCM Institute in China and one of the foremost authorities on the history of magical arts -- however neither she nor me ever asserted that they all existed simultaneously -- we're talking a long period of history, ever heard of things sequential in time? a small mountain, ROFL indeed, a long history to a small mountain. You guys...

[YMWong]

I'm no "you guys" to you mister. Maoshan Magical is not the same as Maoshan Mystical, according to Eva Wong, is she one of the funny guys in your book too? "Tens of thousands of temples" are mentioned by Yang Li, professor at the Graduate Department of the TCM Institute in China and one of the foremost authorities on the history of magical arts -- however neither she nor me ever asserted that they all existed simultaneously -- we're talking a long period of history, ever heard of things sequential in time? a small mountain, ROFL indeed, a long history to a small mountain. You guys...

 

Would you mind quoting Eva Wong (who, with all respect, is not a scholar by the way) and Yang Li as I did in my post ?

 

"The mountain received its name due to its association with the three Mao brothers (Mao Ying, Mao Zong and Mao Gu) who alighted on its three peaks during the Han dynasty, practiced there, ascended from its peaks as trascendents, and were later venerated within the "Shangqing" tradition. Indeed the mountain has almost become synonymous with the Shangqing school, which originated there between the fourth and the fifth centuries."

 

The Encyclopedia of Taoism

Fabrizio Pregadio

 

In the period of its splendour Maoshan had "three palaces, five temples and seventy abbeys" - as recorded in the Yuan dynasty edition of "Maoshan Chronicles". Today Maoshan has two palaces and one temple, all mostly reconstructed in the last few years, with a total of 99 residents (38 Daoists, 16 Nuns and 45 workers).

 

Best

 

YM

[Mantra68]

Would you mind quoting Eva Wong (who, with all respect, is not a scholar by the way) and Yang Li as I did in my post ?

 

Best

 

YM

"Best"? I don't believe you.

 

You need to show a little more respect for your fellow Taoists. You assume that nobody here has a clue what they are talking about and that only reveals that same quality in yourself.

 

Arrogance.

[Taomeow]

Would you mind quoting Eva Wong (who, with all respect, is not a scholar by the way) and Yang Li as I did in my post ?

YM

 

What's the point of quoting someone who is a lineage taoist, i.e. "not a scholar" to you, if you want to rely on the scholar who is not a taoist?.. I think I mentioned more than once on prior occasions that I don't read books by scholars, I only read books by practicing taoists (or by practitioners of certain specific taoist arts and sciences). I don't know how Robinet slipped into my references, I was just in a hurry or I would have remembered who she is and ignored her. OK, now I remember. A scholar. Not a taoist.

 

Anyway, here's the quote you won't accept because it's coming from a lineage taoist and a member of the sect rather than a "scholar" "researching" from the outside looking in:

 

"The members of the Mao-shan sect are sorcerers par excellence. As mentioned in Part One, this sect is not to be confused with the Shang-ch'ing Mao-shan Taoists, who are mystics. Mao-shan sorcerers prefer to draw power from spirits and lesser deities, and are especially skilled in exorcism, fighting malevolent spirits and other sorcerers, offering protection, warding off disasters, and guiding, searching, and rescuing dead souls. Mao-shan sorcerers use talismans and objects of power such as mirrors, bells, and coin-swords. They are especially adept at calling deities and spirits to enter their bodies to enhance their personal power. Practitioners from other sects will invoke only certain deities, but Mao-shan sorcerers are pragmatic, and will muster anything that will help them. Today, the practitioners of the Mao-shan sect are found in Taiwan, Hong Kong, remote regions of southern China, and Chinese communities in southeast Asia. Of all the sects of Magical Taoism, the Mao-shan sect is the most secretive. Admittance to the sect is extremely selective." --The Shambala Guide to Taoism, pp. 116--117.

 

Sounds not all that unlike Max, doesn't it?.. and totally unlike the Shang-ch'ing Maoshan sect, wouldn't you agree?..

 

And trust me, Eva Wong didn't make up Mao-shan Magical taoism and Mao-shan sorcerers, despite the fact that the characters based on this image were used in some movies or other you saw. I've seen many movies depicting true love, but it doesn't mean that everyone who's ever encountered true love has been merely influenced by movies.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Taomeow

[YMWong]

What's the point of quoting someone who is a lineage taoist, i.e. "not a scholar" to you, if you want to rely on the scholar who is not a taoist?.. I think I mentioned more than once on prior occasions that I don't read books by scholars, I only read books by practicing taoists. I don't know how Robinet slipped into my references, I was just in a hurry or I would have remembered who she is and ignored her. OK, now I remember. A scholar. Not a taoist.

 

Taomeow,

 

I was quoting scholarly references simply because I was replying your first comment:

 

I refer you to Isabelle Robinet's and Eva Wong's scholarly accounts for confirmation of its real-life existence.

 

if you want to go with pratictioners views I am totally open to that too.

 

Anyway, here's the quote you won't accept because it's coming from a lineage taoist and a member of the sect rather than a "scholar" "researching" from the outside looking in:

 

[...]

 

And trust me, Eva Wong didn't make up Mao-shan Magical taoism and Mao-shan sorcerers, despite the fact that the characters based on this image were used in some movies or other you saw. I've seen many movies depicting true love, but it doesn't mean that everyone who's ever encountered true love has been merely influenced by movies.

 

Eva Wong, I am told by people who have met her, is a gentle and good woman so I have great respect for her.

 

Her works are a nice reading and a good introduction to Daoism. They are not, however, scholarly made simply because Miss Wong is not a scholar in the field of Chinese Studies and Daoism.

 

With regard to her connection to practical Daoism and her being "from a lineage taoist" I am not sure how much you know but she started learning Daoism in the west with the late Master Moy.

Master Moy's connection to actual Daoism has been discussed quite a bit since the early 80ies and only a loose connection to an organization in HK was found. Basically, neither Master Moy and of course Miss Wong were ordained daoist.

The outcome of this much talk partially broke apart Master Moy's organization after his death, and Miss Wong took a distance from Master Moy and his group afterwards. You can check her biography in her early writings and the recent one for details, and she has acknowledged this fact in person various times.

 

YM

[YMWong]

You need to show a little more respect for your fellow Taoists. You assume that nobody here has a clue what they are talking about and that only reveals that same quality in yourself.

 

Arrogance.

 

I was not assuming anything, I was simply reading your posts and commenting.

 

To paraphrase your reply to me, after you spoke about people you don't even know if they exist:

 

I was just illustrating a point about your family.

 

so, in fact, I was just "illustrating a point about your teacher". Whom of course I have never seen but my comments were on the information you passed on this same board.

 

Anything you want to add ?

 

YM

[Taomeow]

Yeah, I expect to find as much useful information as we've seen in the case of "public revelations" by assorted detractors of, e.g., Wang Liping (who was unanimously declared to be a fictitious character -- I remember hot battles over his existence/nonexistence on assorted tao-dabbling forums, but the opinion of scholars was unequivocal: fictitious! And how they laughed at gullible suckers like me who made a peep to the contrary! ), or to point out a more recent example, Max, for that matter. How about the line of "research" into her biography that traces her lineage through her father rather than Mr. Moe? Detractors to the rescue! But that doesn't really matter... there will always be scores of Australians willing to teach the Innuits how to keep warm on the North Pole, and scores of Norwegians teaching equatorial Africans how to stay cool.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Taomeow

[YMWong]

How about the line of "research" into her biography that traces her lineage through her father rather than Mr. Moe? Detractors to the rescue! But that doesn't really matter... there will always be scores of Australians willing to teach the Innuits how to keep warm on the North Pole, and scores of Norwegians teaching equatorial Africans how to stay cool.

 

I see where you are coming from Taomeow, but having been raised in a 'traditional' (chinese) family do not qualify anybody to speak as an insider of Daoism. I live in Hong Kong were Miss Wong was born and raised and I can confirm that being so.

 

Again, this doesn't discredit the good writings she has produced but everything should be taken in its own perspective.

A real scholar work as a scholarly resource and an actual Daoist writing as an insider source.

 

Miss Wong's writings are nice, entertaining and informative but do not belong to any of the two categories.

 

YM

[Taomeow]

I see where you are coming from Taomeow, but having been raised in a 'traditional' (chinese) family do not qualify anybody to speak as an insider of Daoism. I live in Hong Kong were Miss Wong was born and raised and I can confirm that being so.

 

No, that's not what I meant. I meant research into her biography that cites her father as an ordained taoist who initiated her. I'm rusty though, it's been a while and I don't have orderly bookmarks, alas. But it's something I remember finding far more plausible than the Mr. Moe controversy.

 

Again, this doesn't discredit the good writings she has produced but everything should be taken in its own perspective.

A real scholar work as a scholarly resource and an actual Daoist writing as an insider source.

 

Miss Wong's writings are nice, entertaining and informative but do not belong to any of the two categories.

 

YM

I have read actual taoist writings, pretty much everything available in translation in the two languages I'm fluent in, and had access to an insider source too, which is why I trust what Ms. Wong has to say. It's congruent with my understanding, it has inner grasp of the essential, of the underlying fundamentals of taoism, something that is sorely missing from not some but all academic works I have read (and I used to read those too, moons ago, notably the whale of studies into Sinology and taoism, Joseph Needham) -- which is why I quit reading them. Not because I choose to be undereducated on the subject. But because I choose not to be mis- and dis-educated, or to put it bluntly, brainwashed. And scholarly works as accepted by modern academia are nothing but.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Taomeow

[YMWong]

No, that's not what I meant. I meant research into her biography that cites her father as an ordained taoist who initiated her. I'm rusty though, it's been a while and I don't have orderly bookmarks, alas. But it's something I remember finding far more plausible than the Mr. Moe controversy.

 

I don't know about her father being a "daoist". I only recall her saying that she started reading Yi Jing and similar material as a kid by family influence, or something like that.

I don't have any of her works with me here so I cannot comment further.

 

I have read actual taoist writings, pretty much everything available in translation in the two languages I'm fluent in, and had access to an insider source too, which is why I trust what Ms. Wong has to say. It's congruent with my understanding, it has inner grasp of the essential, of the underlying fundamentals of taoism, something that is sorely missing from not some but all academic works I have read (and I used to read those too, moons ago, notably the whale of studies into Sinology and taoism, Joseph Needham) -- which is why I quit reading them. Not because I choose to be undereducated on the subject. But because I choose not to be mis- and dis-educated, or to put it bluntly, brainwashed. And scholarly works as accepted by modern academia are nothing but.

 

Daoist (Academic) Studies have walked a long way since the early days and there are a number of scholars who are also ordained daoist in their own right. At the time, basically, only M. Saso and K. Schipper had an inside view but now there are many other cases, and Academia is now much closer to the source with field studies while in the early days it was mostly textual analysys.

 

YM

[Taomeow]

Daoist (Academic) Studies have walked a long way since the early days and there are a number of scholars who are also ordained daoist in their own right. At the time, basically, only M. Saso and K. Schipper had an inside view but now there are many other cases, and Academia is now much closer to the source with field studies while in the early days it was mostly textual analysys.

 

YM

Oh, OK, I have Michael Saso's books, I'll try to look it up there, since we may finally have found an authority acceptable for both of us.

 

However, I am not sure field studies are of any use unless the scientist becomes the study's subject's student. Otherwise it's still proving the pudding without eating it.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Taomeow

[YMWong]

[Spectrum]

All these words dedicated towards an artform that exists without them.

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[Taomeow]

Will 'you guys' let us know any agreed findings? I'm intrigued.

 

Well, YM and I exchanged some PMs and it became clear that we can be mutually respectful as individuals but we aren't going to agree on anything, including what is and what isn't a "finding." Maoshan Magical doesn't exist to him as a distinct, separate, and legitimate taoist sect... and none of my findings are going to change it. Whereas his findings, however convincing, remind me of an episode from my favorite Russian novel, one of whose protagonists, the devil, complains at some point that an atheistic scholar had nearly driven him insane proving to him with irrefutable evidence that he doesn't exist. The devil was game for the scholarly exchange for a while and offered "six proofs of god's existence" (and, by extension, his own); the scholar was prepared to strike them all down with counterproof, and made a perfect intellectual case. The devil had no choice but to slap him with "proof number seven" then... empirical evidence.

[YMWong]

Well, YM and I exchanged some PMs and it became clear that we can be mutually respectful as individuals but we aren't going to agree on anything, including what is and what isn't a "finding." Maoshan Magical doesn't exist to him as a distinct, separate, and legitimate taoist sect... and none of my findings are going to change it.

 

To disagree with respect is a good thing as that can lead to learning.

 

Magic exists everywhere in every time. The issue I raised is that not everything is "Daoist".

Daoism is extremely inclusive and yet a lot of things do not belong to it.

 

Shamans and mediums also exist everywhere, but none are "daoist" in nature simply because their goal of practice differ extremely from the Daoist Path.

 

Let me give you couple of examples, of the various I could give, regarding what has been explained of KL.

 

Orthodox Daoists, like those from the Maoshan Sect, are prohibited to wear anything animal-made during ritual and meditation. So much so that also leather belts and shoes are off-limit in the practice area.

 

Shamans and mediums instead make vaste use of leather and fur during their practice, worldwide not only in China, similarly to how KL suggests (according to what we read here) to seat on animal fur.

 

During many Daoist practices there might be some light tremors/vibrations generated in the body or some spontaneous movements. Daoists are required to lightly control those movements and get still.

 

Lot to say, but not necessary for those who know what daoism is all about

 

YM

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源