The Max Christensen Facts Not Fiction Thread.

[ralis]

Now it will be spiritually incorrect to critique the cult of the holy guru on this forum! It is absurd to hold teachers above reproach!

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[ralis]

I like exclamation marks as much as the next joker, Ralis!

 

But is escalation of any situation your sole stock in trade?!

 

Escalation? No. Just pointing out what usually is not obvious or what most don't want to look at. If a teacher is going to be a public figure, then they should expect serious critiques. That is the price of being a public figure. Max is perfectly welcome to come on here and debate his system.

 

It is obvious a number of people have problems with his system.

Edited February 21, 2011 by ralis

[joeblast]

Now it will be spiritually incorrect to critique the cult of the holy guru on this forum! It is absurd to hold teachers above reproach!

Dude there is a difference between "serious critiques" and "mindless prejudiced blather" - if you've got something serious to say, say it, but if you have an issue with how a teacher organizes his school or that he re-organizes it and only offer thinly veiled allusions to your belief that he's a cultish figure, then you arent coming up with anything serious in the least.

 

So are you insinuating that if a teacher is going to teach at all, e.g. "be a public figure" then he should automatically be subject to any and all baseless guesses that people come up with about his motives, practices, history and stories, no matter how wildly outlandish?

 

If you seriously cant separate the two...or is this just blind ideology we're seeing yet again?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Dude there is a difference between "serious critiques" and "mindless prejudiced blather" - if you've got something serious to say, say it, but if you have an issue with how a teacher organizes his school or that he re-organizes it and only offer thinly veiled allusions to your belief that he's a cultish figure, then you arent coming up with anything serious in the least.

 

So are you insinuating that if a teacher is going to teach at all, e.g. "be a public figure" then he should automatically be subject to any and all baseless guesses that people come up with about his motives, practices, history and stories, no matter how wildly outlandish?

 

If you seriously cant separate the two...or is this just blind ideology we're seeing yet again?

 

You are speaking like someone who is on the inside. Perhaps you should reposition yourself, and try to see the world through the eyes of someone who isn't a firm believer, and who treats with skepticism claims that significantly differ from the realm of common and scientific experience and knowledge.

 

A variety of tales have circulated about Max, his abilities, the abilities of his students, and the abilities granted by his system. A variety of tales have been circulated about his teachers and his tradition.

 

One of the ways that con artists and scammers make their money is by creating the illusion of legitimacy- they get all the trappings, they tell all the tales, but don't offer anything of substance- and they don't HAVE to, because people buy their shit because it SEEMS right. The difference between a fraud and a legitimate person, is that the legitimate person was there when they said they were, their teachers were who they say they were, and the story "checks out".

 

A lot of investigative threads have been made over the past to look into Max and the Kunlun story. Because for some people, their time and money are precious, and perhaps (if they are like me), have been the recipients of fraud first hand, and the reason they were taken for a ride is because they bought into the whole "mystique" of spiritual masters- they have all the answers, don't talk to you straight, and if you ask too many questions, it means you aren't devoting the right amounts of time to their practice, which is exactly what you need right now- if you really NEEDED to know the answers, you'd have them.

 

Now once more I'll ask you to remove yourself from your current mindset and consider this:

 

Perhaps the reason so many threads of this nature keep being made is not because people just have their heads in the sand and/or want to question and ridicule a legitimate public teacher, but it's because said public teacher has not yet provided anything which is grounds for legitimacy, and that the questions which you insist either have been answered, or don't matter in the first place, actually have NOT been answered, or actually DO matter for someone who does not follow the leap first/consider life + money options later.

[ralis]

You are speaking like someone who is on the inside. Perhaps you should reposition yourself, and try to see the world through the eyes of someone who isn't a firm believer, and who treats with skepticism claims that significantly differ from the realm of common and scientific experience and knowledge.

 

A variety of tales have circulated about Max, his abilities, the abilities of his students, and the abilities granted by his system. A variety of tales have been circulated about his teachers and his tradition.

 

One of the ways that con artists and scammers make their money is by creating the illusion of legitimacy- they get all the trappings, they tell all the tales, but don't offer anything of substance- and they don't HAVE to, because people buy their shit because it SEEMS right. The difference between a fraud and a legitimate person, is that the legitimate person was there when they said they were, their teachers were who they say they were, and the story "checks out".

 

A lot of investigative threads have been made over the past to look into Max and the Kunlun story. Because for some people, their time and money are precious, and perhaps (if they are like me), have been the recipients of fraud first hand, and the reason they were taken for a ride is because they bought into the whole "mystique" of spiritual masters- they have all the answers, don't talk to you straight, and if you ask too many questions, it means you aren't devoting the right amounts of time to their practice, which is exactly what you need right now- if you really NEEDED to know the answers, you'd have them.

 

Now once more I'll ask you to remove yourself from your current mindset and consider this:

 

Perhaps the reason so many threads of this nature keep being made is not because people just have their heads in the sand and/or want to question and ridicule a legitimate public teacher, but it's because said public teacher has not yet provided anything which is grounds for legitimacy, and that the questions which you insist either have been answered, or don't matter in the first place, actually have NOT been answered, or actually DO matter for someone who does not follow the leap first/consider life + money options later.

 

Thanks for presenting an objective response.

[joeblast]

You are speaking like someone who is on the inside. Perhaps you should reposition yourself, and try to see the world through the eyes of someone who isn't a firm believer, and who treats with skepticism claims that significantly differ from the realm of common and scientific experience and knowledge.

 

A variety of tales have circulated about Max, his abilities, the abilities of his students, and the abilities granted by his system. A variety of tales have been circulated about his teachers and his tradition.

 

One of the ways that con artists and scammers make their money is by creating the illusion of legitimacy- they get all the trappings, they tell all the tales, but don't offer anything of substance- and they don't HAVE to, because people buy their shit because it SEEMS right. The difference between a fraud and a legitimate person, is that the legitimate person was there when they said they were, their teachers were who they say they were, and the story "checks out".

 

A lot of investigative threads have been made over the past to look into Max and the Kunlun story. Because for some people, their time and money are precious, and perhaps (if they are like me), have been the recipients of fraud first hand, and the reason they were taken for a ride is because they bought into the whole "mystique" of spiritual masters- they have all the answers, don't talk to you straight, and if you ask too many questions, it means you aren't devoting the right amounts of time to their practice, which is exactly what you need right now- if you really NEEDED to know the answers, you'd have them.

 

Now once more I'll ask you to remove yourself from your current mindset and consider this:

 

Perhaps the reason so many threads of this nature keep being made is not because people just have their heads in the sand and/or want to question and ridicule a legitimate public teacher, but it's because said public teacher has not yet provided anything which is grounds for legitimacy, and that the questions which you insist either have been answered, or don't matter in the first place, actually have NOT been answered, or actually DO matter for someone who does not follow the leap first/consider life + money options later.

*applauds* this is a constructive reply, that's what I'm talking about.

 

As to "legitimacy"...I've done a bunch of different practices, I've seen results from a bunch of them, a wide variety of profundity. I've gotten results from Max's practices. In general they are consistent with my expectations given the time put in and intensity of effort. When you've experienced some things that others may consider controversial for yourself, other things that are a minor extrapolation from there are plausible. Do a practice, stick to a fence or tree? Yeah, that's a pretty wild claim, and its not one that drew me to the practices. That said, there are 84,000 methods of cultivation and not all practices are meant for all people. For example there's a small percentage of us that would be able to complete mo pai with proper time and training, the rest of us need to look elsewhere. So if the kunlun practices dont resonate with someone (and it is a guarantee there will be people who try certain practices and they discover they dont resonate with the practice, teacher, lineage, what have you..) then drop it and find a better practice for yourself, is there a reason to go on a crusade against the teacher?

 

I dont know where this drama-stuff comes from, because every single experience I've had has been smooth, positive, powerful, uplifting. For some reason drama-potential calls all drama queens, who dutifully report...

[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[Sloppy Zhang]

As to "legitimacy"...I've done a bunch of different practices, I've seen results from a bunch of them, a wide variety of profundity. I've gotten results from Max's practices. In general they are consistent with my expectations given the time put in and intensity of effort. When you've experienced some things that others may consider controversial for yourself, other things that are a minor extrapolation from there are plausible.

 

Well see now we run into what "legitimacy" means, and what "results" means.

 

Because there's the legitimacy of "I learned from so-and-so, who learned from so-and-so, this is my lineage", and then there's the "my shit gets results".

 

And then there is "results". What are results? We hear stories of the Golden Dragon Body, people disappearing in coffee shops, Max being able to cross over any time, and with the Golden Dragon Body you can come back, but for some reason Max doesn't want to cross over because of..... I dunno, powerlines? I seem to remember there being a power line issue at some seminar that got brought up in one of the old threads.

 

In any case, there have been threads that have investigated the first kind of legitimacy. Finding his teachers, cross checking dates, looking at old photographs. I don't know what the results of those were.

 

Then there have been threads about the other type of legitimacy, the "does it get results?" and "what are the results", these also run in circles because, well, no one has really defined results.

 

Perhaps it's just me and my skeptic mindset, but when I hear someone say that Max and/or Kan can disappear, or manifest the Gold Dragon Body at will, and then I hear someone say, "the practice works", that to me says, "here's another person who can disappear/manifest the GDB".

 

But if all that person has to show for it is an openness to the universe, good feelings, bliss states and all that..... well, I'm sure a lot of people can get to that same place with a couple ounces of pot and a bit of masturbation. That's a far cry from disappearing and the whole Golden Dragon Body, huh?

 

Now you're free to make the claim that wild stories of powers and abilities didn't draw you in, that those aren't what you're seeking, that they aren't what you've experienced, that those aren't your goal or aren't the ultimate goal. Okay, that's fine.... but that doesn't negate the fact that wild claims HAVE been made, that they CONTRADICT not only many a person's personal experience, but also the accumulated experience of scientific experimentation across centuries. The only similarity that some of these claims have with anything that is present in most of our lives is.... well.... fiction.

 

I dont know where this drama-stuff comes from, because every single experience I've had has been smooth, positive, powerful, uplifting. For some reason drama-potential calls all drama queens, who dutifully report...

 

The drama comes from the frequent marketing of oranges, but if you ask anybody to produce an orange, the most they produce is an apple. And they're like, "where's the orange?" and the only response they get is, "an apple a day keeps the doctor away, what's not to like about that?"

 

It's like, you said you had an orange, give the people a fucking orange! And don't complain when they try to find out where the heck their orange is!

[joeblast]

I have letters from Max himself to his facilitators showing his insecurity and control. Perhaps I will post them here but I am sure that some of you will flip out and criticize the authenticity of those as well.

I've seen him scold people for doing inappropriate things too. I guess if you're on the receiving end of it, you might consider that "insecurity and control."

 

Honestly it sounds like you merely proved your preconceived notion, but of course I couldnt say such a thing with certainty, its just curious, the crusade and all.

[Sloppy Zhang]

When we lose the ability to see the funny side of things, we are in a psychological complex.

 

But at the same time, if you make light of serious subjects, well, that's no good either!

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[Aetherous]

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Edited February 22, 2011 by center

[ralis]

I've stuck to a tree.. Max saw it.. actually it happened when I was with Ya Mu also, he knows all about that stuff, it's natural. It isnt wild, to me. Because it happened to me, and it felt natural and good and fine, organic. There was no drama to it, I didnt 'achieve ' it either.. it was smooth, powerful, uplifting,just as you say. And natural, just part of it all. Nothing to attach to.

 

It works for you and other Kunlun believers. However, it is well known that Max's empty force has no effect on outsiders. Exactly what is happening when only believers display such phenomena?

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'm not sure about that, SloppyZhang.

 

 

My teachers tell me quite otherwise.

 

Well it has to do with respecting, and then understanding the other person's position.

 

I'm all for humor, I'm all for laughs. Laughing and humor is a great way to lighten the mood, and keep people from getting bogged down. But there reaches a point where it becomes unnecessary. Where you can look at something seriously, and not get bogged down. And I think that that's REALLY the point. But who am I the teacher of? Nobody, so there you have it.

 

The point is, I see this a lot in threads with the purpose of investigating various people who purport to have various "powers". The skeptic group says, "I'm not sure this is true because of A, B, and C." The believer group responds, "oh, haha, you just don't understand, A is really this, B is their personality, and C is part of the teaching style, it's all in good fun, hahaha!"

 

And the skeptic responds, "well A isn't really this, because that is contradicted by this past statement, B should have no bearing on the facts of the situation, and C has not actually produced the rumored effect, unless you can prove otherwise."

 

And the believers respond, "well now your head is just in the sand! You're just a hater! Boo on the hater!"

 

It's like... it just seems that the believer side routinely fails to fundamentally even ACKNOWLEDGE the argument. They talk past the points, and just throw out whatever rhetoric they have at their disposal (in the case of Max, you could refer to the whole "coyote" thing). And when you do that, you aren't ever going to get anywhere, because if you don't properly acknowledge the other position, it leads to a lack of respect, which leads to a breakdown in communication, and it leads to a bunch of threads talking about the same topic.

 

You'd think that "The Max Christensen Facts Not Fiction Thread" would have more.... well, FACTS. What are the FACTS. Not the rhetoric, not the personal beliefs, not the feelings. What are the FACTS?

 

I don't think those have really properly been addressed.

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[joeblast]

It works for you and other Kunlun believers. However, it is well known that Max's empty force has no effect on outsiders. Exactly what is happening when only believers display such phenomena?

Well, if you truly deep down dont believe a phenomena like this is possible, then you're not going to be able to open yourself sufficiently for something like this to manifest, yes? Open mind, open heart, open energy, and it works. Resist and of course it wont. Its part of the nature of this energy-phenomenon, it just doesnt appear to be a manifestation that can force itself through energetic barriers.

[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[taotongue]

v

Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well, if you truly deep down dont believe a phenomena like this is possible, then you're not going to be able to open yourself sufficiently for something like this to manifest, yes? Open mind, open heart, open energy, and it works. Resist and of course it wont. Its part of the nature of this energy-phenomenon, it just doesnt appear to be a manifestation that can force itself through energetic barriers.

 

 

I have a pet theory- if it's real, then it's real. If you do it right, then it happens. Sounds a bit circular?

 

Here's an easy one- gravity. We don't really know how or why it works. We just know that it does. If I approach dropping a bowling ball with skepticism, it's pretty damn likely that that bowling ball is going to drop. A lot of scientific studies and personal experience have confirmed this.

 

Now sometimes a scientific inquiry will refute something that one predicts due to their experiences (like objects with different masses falling with the same speeds, you may not think so at first, but that's due to some of the conditions of most peoples' personal experiences).

 

Now my theory is that energy and spiritual phenomena should work the same way. If it is legitimately real, then as long as you go through the process properly, even if you are skeptical, then it should work.

 

The proof of the pudding, as they say, should be in the eating! The practice should make you a believer- you shouldn't have to be a believer in order for the practice to work. That is the EXACT sort of rhetoric that I am talking about- the kind that shuts down questions and dissent from the ranks. Because if you ask questions, it implies you are a bad student and not gonna get anywhere. And that is just not cool.

 

On top of that, I haven't seen any of the believers able to back up any of their words with actions. Just more rhetoric about how you should be more open minded, about how powers and abilities aren't the goal, about how you feel really nice and la la la....

 

Once again, there are claims being made which, if true, could easily be verifiable. How about we verify them? What is there to lose? What, people would actually believer you BEFORE handing over their time and money to a practice? Yikes, how unreasonable! [/sarcasm]

Edited February 21, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[三江源]

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Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[taotongue]

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Edited March 11, 2011 by taotongue