The Max Christensen Facts Not Fiction Thread.

[ralis]

The comments on this thread certainly indicate that teachers need to be responsible for what they teach. All the so called spiritual systems of attainment are producing random results at best, whether it is Max or whomever.

[joeblast]

The comments on this thread certainly indicate that teachers need to be responsible for what they teach. All the so called spiritual systems of attainment are producing random results at best, whether it is Max or whomever.

Yes, please! Gosh, somebody take this personal responsibility out of my hands, I cant tolerate it, I need somebody else to be responsible for me so that I may live happily, comfortably, taken care of in oblivion!

 

 

How's about we each be responsible for what comes of our own actions and out of our own mouths?

 

Or should there somehow some panel of experts that can simply certify all new masters, yeah, that will ensure quality and safety so that nobody gets so much as a scratch!

[Lucky7Strikes]

The comments on this thread certainly indicate that teachers need to be responsible for what they teach. All the so called spiritual systems of attainment are producing random results at best, whether it is Max or whomever.

Ok, then don't practice a spiritual system. No teaching in any field produces perfect results. Such nice critiques..."it's not perfect!"

[Astral_Anima]

The comments on this thread certainly indicate that teachers need to be responsible for what they teach. All the so called spiritual systems of attainment are producing random results at best, whether it is Max or whomever.

 

Lol, prolly cause most are just rehashing poetic philosophical quotations to awe the crowd and make a buck. The practicality of true teachings are it's indicator that it IS a true teaching. While it's great to take responsibility to your actions, to say that the conflict in Tibet is little 2 year old Timmy's fault...well...(giggles) GTFO hahahahahaha. While it's true that the collective words, thoughts and deeds help to SHAPE this world, to take personal responsibility for EVERYTHING thats going on...thats just silly. That shooting star was caused by Susie-Q's dream of flying ...(giggles again). Ahhhh where would I be without this forum. I LOVE YOU ALL!!!

 

-Astral

[ralis]

In terms of responsibility on the teachers part, most teachers don't have a clue as to what the ramifications are for any given practice. Many assumptions are made from anecdotal evidence, rhetoric, propaganda, all of which can be very misleading.

[ralis]

Ok, then don't practice a spiritual system. No teaching in any field produces perfect results. Such nice critiques..."it's not perfect!"

 

A system only provides security or a box with limitations that are inherent to the particular system. Further, Max has sold a package of disparate techniques that are unrelated and not of any one lineage all for the bargain price of 300.00.

 

 

The question remains as to the efficacy of Max's techniques and if Max has truly mastered any techniques in question.

Edited February 23, 2011 by ralis

[-O-]

Responsibility.

 

 

as for yourself too.

 

 

Yes, please! Gosh, somebody take this personal responsibility out of my hands, I cant tolerate it, I need somebody else to be responsible for me so that I may live happily, comfortably, taken care of in oblivion!

 

 

How's about we each be responsible for what comes of our own actions and out of our own mouths?

 

Or should there somehow some panel of experts that can simply certify all new masters, yeah, that will ensure quality and safety so that nobody gets so much as a scratch!

 

 

In terms of responsibility on the teachers part, most teachers don't have a clue as to what the ramifications are for any given practice. Many assumptions are made from anecdotal evidence, rhetoric, propaganda, all of which can be very misleading.

 

 

An amusing thought... there are those who believe that folks like us who are attracted to such practices do so due to a stunted maturity regarding the consequneces of our choices. Specifically we categorizes our "suffering" as illness, devolution... something inherently off or flawed within us which then needs repair... the solution being these practices when in actuality it is a failure to assume the consequences of choices as our own.... so if these folks are right then wouldn't it stand to reason that such a comment would then be very helpful to our ilk? ...even revolutionary?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes, please! Gosh, somebody take this personal responsibility out of my hands, I cant tolerate it, I need somebody else to be responsible for me so that I may live happily, comfortably, taken care of in oblivion!

 

 

How's about we each be responsible for what comes of our own actions and out of our own mouths?

 

Or should there somehow some panel of experts that can simply certify all new masters, yeah, that will ensure quality and safety so that nobody gets so much as a scratch!

 

Ok, then don't practice a spiritual system. No teaching in any field produces perfect results. Such nice critiques..."it's not perfect!"

 

Exaggerating someone's position (kinda like to make a strawman argument) is not particularly helpful towards finding a solution, nor is it respectful.

 

I don't think most reasonable people would make the claim that a system needs to be 100%, that a teacher must be infallible, or that they don't have any responsibility for what they practice and who they train with.

 

But it's a two way street. Students put in lots of time and money in order to afford events, travel to events, and take time out of their day in order to practice, despite the fact that for the most part, there are very few things that will come about it (you'd probably get more direct benefits learning a foreign language to advance in your job than you'd get meditating all day- because let's face it, there are plenty of ways besides meditation to relax, calm down, and psycho analyze yourself).

 

Those students trust their teachers to be honest. They trust their teachers to know what they are talking about, to help them on the path, and to be able to point things out to them when stuff goes wrong, or when the student can do things better. It's not outside of reason to your teacher to be reasonably competent in their field, and to be able to prove it. There are plenty of boxing coaches who are much better coaches than boxers. If the guy can't show evidence of his own track record, it'd sure be nice if he could show some evidence of past successful students before I hand over my money and get into a serious training regiment.

 

There is nothing unreasonable about asking the same for spiritual teachers. I don't think many people go to a teacher expecting them to disappear or levitate- it's not within the bounds of experience, so probably not within their expectation. Now if a teacher starts saying they can disappear or levitate for a long time, keeps on saying this is a result of the practice (even if it's not the goal), well, you'd think that SOMEWHERE down the line SOMEONE would DO it. That it'd happen. That people outside a small circle of die-hard believers would see it. And when you don't, and when you hear a lot of convenient excuses for why it doesn't happen.... well, it doesn't really inspire confidence. And someone could feel as right as rain, and as happy as can be after a practice, but it doesn't go vary far in substantiating any of the claims about levitation, invisibility, or stuff like that (which in some cases, are made very seriously, and are meant to be taken seriously).

 

You can talk all you want about how it's not about powers, but about inner peace and wisdom.... well, guess what? The word "powers" are being dropped. If you say, "it's not about powers. It's about wisdom, healing, and enlightenment. Powers are a side effect." You pretty much just said that SOMEWHERE down the line, powers manifest. Okay, so WHERE ARE THEY?

 

That's the kind of thing that gets people to raise an eyebrow, to inquire, and, after years of unanswered questions and unsubstantiated claims, become quite disbelieving towards.

 

Mocking their position doesn't help.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Lucky7Strikes]

In terms of responsibility on the teachers part, most teachers don't have a clue as to what the ramifications are for any given practice. Many assumptions are made from anecdotal evidence, rhetoric, propaganda, all of which can be very misleading.

Good for you. Go on go on. I'm sure you have so much more clues and gifts to offer to others.

 

Many assumptions are made from anecdotal evidence, rhetoric, propaganda, all of which can be very misleading.

This is what you are doing.

[Lucky7Strikes]

A system only provides security or a box with limitations that are inherent to the particular system. Further, Max has sold a package of disparate techniques that are unrelated and not of any one lineage all for the bargain price of 300.00.

 

 

The question remains as to the efficacy of Max's techniques and if Max has truly mastered any techniques in question.

Yeah? and what do you know about those lineages? What do you know about his teachers? What do you know anything really about his history besides mere internet speculations based on other speculations?

 

The efficacy of the systems everyone who has practiced them has shown to be true. I vow for their efficacy. They give you nightmares? Good! It just shows how much crap you have piled up in your unconscious.

 

Max has mastered the techniques or not? What a great question. Why don't you go ask him since you know, it's his system and all. Or are you going to say to him, oh no I don't think you've mastered it and I know this because....

 

Oh Ralis, you are so silly.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

You can talk all you want about how it's not about powers, but about inner peace and wisdom.... well, guess what? The word "powers" are being dropped. If you say, "it's not about powers. It's about wisdom, healing, and enlightenment. Powers are a side effect." You pretty much just said that SOMEWHERE down the line, powers manifest. Okay, so WHERE ARE THEY?

Kan went transparent and those photos were posted online. Everyone thought they were fake. During seminars people have reported Max controlling people's movements and energies. Everyone think they are NLP techniques.

 

So there you go, display of powers. Is that not enough to show the irrelevance of displaying powers?

Edited February 23, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[ralis]

I just remembered a very excellent example of how people are duped. If anyone has seen the videos of the TM people in Fairfield Iowa doing what they believe is levitation and is nothing more than yogic hopping. The Maharishi claimed he could fly his body anywhere without an aircraft of any kind. He was never seen flying around and yet people pay big bucks for the siddhi courses in which real levitation is one of the promises made. Yet no one has actually levitated and the true believers still arrive.

[Jetsun]

I had all sorts of weird things come up when I did Kunlun, but I knew it was all crap from my subconscious coming out and not some alien trying to abduct me. Perhaps the reason why people get all worried about the nagua snake stuff is because it's such a deep qigong that it works on your primitive reptilian brain and clearing on that deep level is bound to bring up some strange things which can be quite scary, especially if you have only done work on physical and emotional clearing before.

 

It is certainly a very powerful technique but all the controlling of peoples body movements stuff with energy doesn't impress me, Mesmer was doing just that same stuff you see in the Kunlun video in the 1800's just using his own intuitive power without any sort of Qigong or esoteric training. He even said it worked better on the simpler country folk as they were more open to his influence.

[ralis]

I had all sorts of weird things come up when I did Kunlun, but I knew it was all crap from my subconscious coming out and not some alien trying to abduct me. Perhaps the reason why people get all worried about the nagua snake stuff is because it's such a deep qigong that it works on your primitive reptilian brain and clearing on that deep level is bound to bring up some strange things which can be quite scary, especially if you have only done work on physical and emotional clearing before.

 

It is certainly a very powerful technique but all the controlling of peoples body movements stuff with energy doesn't impress me, Mesmer was doing just that same stuff you see in the Kunlun video in the 1800's just using his own intuitive power without any sort of Qigong or esoteric training. He even said it worked better on the simpler country folk as they were more open to his influence.

 

Are you still doing the practice?

[Jetsun]

Are you still doing the practice?

 

No for me at the time it was too much, if you have some sort of contraction or defence you don't want to let go of then that sort of powerful method will just twist you up. So I see why it was kept secret. Although I plan to take it up again once I work through a few things.

[Lucky7Strikes]

No for me at the time it was too much, if you have some sort of contraction or defence you don't want to let go of then that sort of powerful method will just twist you up. So I see why it was kept secret. Although I plan to take it up again once I work through a few things.

Yes, I took long breaks too because the practice just heightened my sense of resistance to certain attachments I had. .

[Lucky7Strikes]

I just remembered a very excellent example of how people are duped. If anyone has seen the videos of the TM people in Fairfield Iowa doing what they believe is levitation and is nothing more than yogic hopping. The Maharishi claimed he could fly his body anywhere without an aircraft of any kind. He was never seen flying around and yet people pay big bucks for the siddhi courses in which real levitation is one of the promises made. Yet no one has actually levitated and the true believers still arrive.

Kunlun is mostly done on your own. It's not like Max demands people to be in workshops all the time.

[ralis]

Kunlun is mostly done on your own. It's not like Max demands people to be in workshops all the time.

 

You missed my point by a few light years. I was referring to empty promises of power being doled out by gurus. No matter the venue.

[gendao]

Some great points in the last few pages, especially...

 

I just wanted to add that in many of these groups, it's actually many of the more ambitious students themselves who voluntarily engage in arse-kissing, competitiveness and ego battles to establish and climb the "ranks" of a hierarchy within.

 

I remember the first few workshops in the mainland - they were wondrous and everyone felt very heart-centered. Everyone was participating and sharing together openly.

 

But a few years later, there had developed a far more commercialed, elitist and competitive vibe amongst the "inner circle" of student "facilitators" (originally "teachers").

 

I don't attribute this to Max being manipulative. In fact, I attribute this to Max being too unmanipulative and only being forced to play some office politics when things have finally spiraled a bit "out of control."

 

I think Max is just more interested at heart in bushwhacking outer spiritual realms and not engaging in all the petty office politics of lay society here. So, he is not well prepared or skilled in group management in that sense. He prefers a very hands-off approach, as opposed to a micromanagement style. Of course, both extremes have their pros & cons..

 

And again, I don't see this only in Kunlun. I've seen the same pattern in most groups, actually. Students take a workshop and immediately want to become teachers/teacher's pets because they are hungrily seeking egoic self-worth. This is without even any encouragement needed from the teacher at all. Nobody just wants to be a mere student first...lol.

Edited February 23, 2011 by vortex

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yeah? and what do you know about those lineages? What do you know about his teachers? What do you know anything really about his history besides mere internet speculations based on other speculations?

 

The history and lineage has been debated in a lot of threads, names dropped, history poured over. I believe that Ralis has taken part in lots of those discussions, so I think he is well aware of the facts.

 

The efficacy of the systems everyone who has practiced them has shown to be true.

 

As I asked in another post: what do you mean by efficacy? What's the threshold?

 

Feeling good? Bliss? Feeling more open minded? Being at peace? Not only are these incredibly subjective and hard to verify, it's also difficult to point to the origin of those feelings. Did you start to feel that way because you practiced Kunlun, or because you quit hanging out with your deadbeat friends so that you could practice, and as a result feel less bogged down?

 

Not to mention that a bit of weed and some masturbation could make you feel pretty damn relaxed and chill.

 

Compare this to turning invisible, transcending this world, and then coming back as an immortal in your Golden Dragon Body. It'd be pretty easy to verify, not subjective, and if you shared the method, could be verified by other practitioners.

 

I vow for their efficacy.

 

Anecdotal evidence doesn't really help.... I mean, there's a unicorn outside my window. I vow for the veracity of the statement. How much does this help? (will come back to the unicorn below)

 

Max has mastered the techniques or not? What a great question. Why don't you go ask him since you know, it's his system and all. Or are you going to say to him, oh no I don't think you've mastered it and I know this because....

 

Lol, well if you want to get down to it, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claims. If someone claims they have a system that can lead to immortality or enlightenment or liberation or whatnot, things outside the normal realm of human experience, it really is on them to provide evidence.

 

Otherwise people would have to go everywhere to personally validate everything they hear which is beyond normal expectation. Each person would have to come to visit me personally, to see where the unicorn is. It could have flown away, and they'd have to see what's the deal with me, if I was trustworthy, or find some other evidence.

 

Now compare this to if I actually went out and gathered up all the evidence for there being a unicorn, and put it out there. People could just look at the evidence and it'd be there. Now not having proof doesn't automatically invalidate a claim. But it is kind of sketchy for someone to be saying lots of things, making lots of claims (including things about himself which could easily be proven), and then not ever backing them up, or having someone else back them up. I mean, just think of me coming up with some explanations to cover for the fact that there's no way I can prove it, and then charging money for people to come and get trained to see a unicorn.....

 

Well before the cash starts flowing in, I'm going to let you all know that I deliberately misled you for the purpose of argument. There is no unicorn, and there never was.

 

Kan went transparent and those photos were posted online. Everyone thought they were fake.

 

You've got to weigh new information with what you already know. Photo manipulation techniques are rather commonplace, and easy to do with a bit of training. Seeing as how you don't see people disappearing in real life, and how there aren't any accurate reports of humans dematerializing that are from verified sources, well, perhaps we should look at Occam's razor, and not unnecessarily add extra elements to the situation.

 

Until we are presented with evidence which rules out other conclusions, it is much more likely that photo manipulation techniques (which are quite well known and established) were used rather than someone turning invisible (which is an extraneous factor, that is not a part of the set of most human experiences, and would have to be added and confirmed for us to believe that).

 

During seminars people have reported Max controlling people's movements and energies. Everyone think they are NLP techniques.

 

Again, we compare what we see now to what we've seen in the past.

 

 

Overzealous students have certainly got up to some things that turned out to not quite be the way they seemed.....

 

So there you go, display of powers. Is that not enough to show the irrelevance of displaying powers?

 

If you were going to call them "displays of powers", then you'd have to actually verify that they were, in fact, powers.

 

So far all we can say are "displays". Displays of what? Displays of powers? Displays of human suggestibility? Displays of photo editing skills?

 

We need to verify.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Lucky7Strikes]

You missed my point by a few light years. I was referring to empty promises of power being doled out by gurus. No matter the venue.

Then you have no clue what true Guru yoga entails. Max is not a guru, look over my post I made in response to Astral a few pages back.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[ralis]

Then you have no clue what true Guru yoga entails. Max is not a guru, look over my post I made in response to Astral a few pages back.

 

I have done Norbu's guru yoga and realized it. You don't know me or what my practices are.

[Lucky7Strikes]

The history and lineage has been debated in a lot of threads, names dropped, history poured over. I believe that Ralis has taken part in lots of those discussions, so I think he is well aware of the facts.

Actually all those posts were speculations and in the end, Max's claims proved true. Ralis just added fuel to the fire.

 

As I asked in another post: what do you mean by efficacy? What's the threshold?

 

Feeling good? Bliss? Feeling more open minded? Being at peace? Not only are these incredibly subjective and hard to verify, it's also difficult to point to the origin of those feelings. Did you start to feel that way because you practiced Kunlun, or because you quit hanging out with your deadbeat friends so that you could practice, and as a result feel less bogged down?

 

Not to mention that a bit of weed and some masturbation could make you feel pretty damn relaxed and chill.

I had a thread a while back of certain bodily and energetic changes I went through. The bliss is nothing compared to your normal bodily capacity of feeling. You become aware to the point that you cannot sleep. You have enough energy to not eat for days without getting tired, just hydrating yourself is enough. You breathe differently, like at a rate of one-two breaths a minute. You see everything in a field of light, the non-dual awareness that arises extinguishes any feelings of self or other, sense of time and space dissolves. Everything is within the present, there is bliss in every movement. These experiences come and go, but what remains is a newer awareness of life, an effortless awareness.

 

Also Winpro has posted lengthy threads in the past about his experiences, some of which included heat from his hands dissolving his clothes. You have to be aware that practitioners DO NOT LIKE, at least for me, to write about experiences because then the mind objectifies it and attaches onto it, and inevitably seeks it. The non-attachment, the abstract state of mind is what brings about these changes in the first place. All practices are mind based.

 

Compare this to turning invisible, transcending this world, and then coming back as an immortal in your Golden Dragon Body. It'd be pretty easy to verify, not subjective, and if you shared the method, could be verified by other practitioners.

If you think this can be achieved with only a few years of practice you are expecting a bit too much. Alchemical work takes years and lifetimes. 9 years of penetrating the void...Also everyone's progress is different because their energetic configurations and degree of attachments hinder them.

 

Anecdotal evidence doesn't really help.... I mean, there's a unicorn outside my window. I vow for the veracity of the statement. How much does this help? (will come back to the unicorn below)

 

Lol, well if you want to get down to it, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claims. If someone claims they have a system that can lead to immortality or enlightenment or liberation or whatnot, things outside the normal realm of human experience, it really is on them to provide evidence.

 

Otherwise people would have to go everywhere to personally validate everything they hear which is beyond normal expectation. Each person would have to come to visit me personally, to see where the unicorn is. It could have flown away, and they'd have to see what's the deal with me, if I was trustworthy, or find some other evidence.

So exactly what kind of "proof" do you demand? Do you want them to contact qualified scientists and ask them to examine them? Because Max does show MRI's of his brain and x rays of his body. According to him, he has gone through medical examination. Those pictures used to be up online until everyone started blabbering nonsense about them, calling the fakes, etc. No real constructive discussion there.

 

Now compare this to if I actually went out and gathered up all the evidence for there being a unicorn, and put it out there. People could just look at the evidence and it'd be there. Now not having proof doesn't automatically invalidate a claim. But it is kind of sketchy for someone to be saying lots of things, making lots of claims (including things about himself which could easily be proven), and then not ever backing them up, or having someone else back them up. I mean, just think of me coming up with some explanations to cover for the fact that there's no way I can prove it, and then charging money for people to come and get trained to see a unicorn.....

Yeah? And how the hell would you gather evidence that your body turned into light?

Edited February 24, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

I have done Norbu's guru yoga and realized it. You don't know me or what my practices are.

What have you realized? I don't need to know you or your practices. Seeing your posts here the past years is enough to know that whatever your spiritual discipline is you haven't realized it. You surely haven't realized rigpa.

 

If you truly believed in your realization you wouldn't even type in a phrase like "you don't know me or what my practices are." Because that wasn't even the topic at hand. A bit insecure aren't ya?

Edited February 24, 2011 by Lucky7Strikes

[ralis]

What have you realized? I don't need to know you or your practices. Seeing your posts here the past years is enough to know that whatever your spiritual discipline is you haven't realized it. You surely haven't realized rigpa.

 

If you truly believed in your realization you wouldn't even type in a phrase like "you don't know me or what my practices are." Because that wasn't even the topic at hand. A bit insecure aren't ya?

 

I responded to your remark in regards to guru yoga and your claim that I was clueless. You made an incorrect conclusion.