Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[thelerner]

If we're to keep our present population then we and the earth are probably better off not going the hunter gatherer rout. From what I've read stuffing millions into a few square miles of city is better for the earth then spreading them out over 100's miles. Strangely high apartment living is better for the environment then pastoral cabin living. It also ends up being less polluting, using wood (or coal) to create heat is inefficient and highly polluting, the high rise using natural gas is less polluting.

 

I assume Sushil is hoping for both hunter gatherers and the world population reduced by a huge percentage. Cause otherwise if we all spread out, our collective environmental foot print would be even more devastating. We'd eat endangered animals and burn down forests whole in search of wood for warmth.

 

Sushil what makes you happy? What good is living life in despair? I hope you find some reasons to celebrate every now and then. Odds are you're wrong about mankind having a few years left. By many markers we're doing better environmentally then in the early 70's when acid rain was killing large swarths of forest and some great lakes were dead of life and actually catching on fire. Population growth particularly in the first world is leveling off and even going down. Alternative energies are growing past infancy. Shit happens, but so does good, and shit can make good fertilizer. There is hope and solutions to our problems.

 

There are real significant problems, as Ralis points out, but we know them and we can take steps, often prodded by self interest and economic reasons to correct them. Our industrial power and science can be pretty useful in solving problems once we put our minds to it.

 

edit: late addin from -K's comment

Disasterbation Turns You Blind http://www.treehugger.com/corporate-responsibility/disasterbation-turns-you-blind.html

Edited January 3, 2013 by thelerner

[Birch]

I liked this article http://www.treehugger.com/economics/toward-new-environmentalism.html

[taoareyou]

.

More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

 

Most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed.

 

Making up statistics to support alarmist views only hurts the credibility of your message. A message that you copy and paste to multiple message boards. Such as:

 

http://www.ldsfreedo...hp?f=2&p=344543

 

http://www.davidicke...hp?p=1061230767

 

http://www.online-li...and-Environment

 

A simple Google search for the name: "sushil_yadav" results in many more examples of this same thread elsewhere.

 

In my opinion, you don't post here to have a discussion. This is just one of MANY message boards you spam with your rant against society. A rant that offers no solution other than devolving. Abandoning industry would likely be the death of billions of people, since ancient tribal methods cannot support the current population. Calling for a solution that requires such a devastating sacrifice is ludicrous.

 

Life is a struggle. Some things live, some things die. Cycles of birth and destruction happened before humans and will happen after humans. You cannot stop these cycles.

 

At: http://www.culturech...trial_mind.html, you state that nature cannot exist with man. You think man is somehow separate from nature? We are part of the planet, just as everything else that lives and grows here. Everything we do is part of the inevitable progress of life. We are part of the whole, not an outside influence.

 

You also claim "We are in the last 20 years."

 

If you put a solid date on that, you can sell a lot of books, videos and various merchandise, because society never seems to tire of the "end is near" bit.

Edited January 3, 2013 by taoareyou

[sushil_yadav]

 

In my opinion, you don't post here to have a discussion.

 

Discussion is good only if it is limited in content.

 

Endless hair splitting is a disease.

 

Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.

 

Billions of Pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument is another Harmful Waste created by Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

 

Discussion cannot save environment.

 

Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment for millions of years through discussion......They did not even have a language for discussing environmental issues.

 

If discussion could solve global problems this world would have become a paradise long ago with the help of trillions of pages of discussion......Whereas the reality is all the discussion is making it more and more insane moment by moment.

 

I come from a country where "thinking" was considered the biggest obstacle in making the mind peaceful.....The fields of yoga and meditation were developed to stop thinking and achieve peaceful states of mind.

[sushil_yadav]

Making up statistics to support alarmist views only hurts the credibility of your message. A message that you copy and paste to multiple message boards. Such as:

 

http://www.ldsfreedo...hp?f=2&p=344543

 

http://www.davidicke...hp?p=1061230767

 

http://www.online-li...and-Environment

 

A simple Google search for the name: "sushil_yadav" results in many more examples of this same thread elsewhere.

 

This issue came up in a few other forums as well. Here is a copy of a reply I made in one of the forums :

 

Ecosystems have been destroyed by human overactivity. Humans have destroyed necessary things [animals, trees, air, water and land] for making unnecessary things [consumer goods]. If I visit hundreds of "Discussion Forums" and people ask me what is the cause of environmental crisis - how did we land in the present mess - what went wrong - then I am going to give the same reply in all forums - I am not going to give hundreds of different replies in different forums.

 

The cause of environmental destruction is not going to change from day to day, month to month, year to year.

 

What you call "cut and paste" has taken me several years to write - it has taken me several years to write my article and make additions to it. How much time have you spent on all your posts in this forum?

 

If I post in many forums you start complaining. What about the behaviour of human species that has collectively destroyed all ecosystems and decimated all other species? You are not alarmed by the destruction of environment - I suppose this would count as a trivial thing for you - you don't seem to be concerned about this at all.

 

I have a suggestion for you - focus on the real issues - focus on the big problems.

 

When truth hurts people try to find all kinds of faults.

 

I have not posted advertisements, I have not posted for commercial gain.

 

I have not gone around posting at random. I have always tried to post in forums that are relevant to my article/ related to keywords in my article. It has taken me considerable time to search for the right forums. My article is related to the following keywords - Environment, Philosophy, Nature, Ecology, Activism, Socialism, Mind, Yoga, Meditation, Spirituality, Global Warming, Climate Change, Simple Living, Frugal Living, Anti Globalization, Anti Capitalism .... and many others. There are different forums for all these topics and these forums are visited by different people. This is why I have posted my article in so many forums - my article is suitable for all these forums.

 

The same newspaper goes to millions of homes.

The newspaper is same – but readers are different.

 

The same goods are available in millions of shops.

The goods are same – but buyers are different.

 

There is nothing wrong if the same content is posted in many forums.

The content is same – but forums/ readers are different. Moreover, the discussion, the replies and comments are different in different forums - so every thread becomes different.

 

You see the same cars on road everyday - you don't have any problem with that. You see the same faces in office and home everyday - you don't have any problem with that. But when you see my article in several forums you start complaining. Why?

 

If you complain about seeing the same content in many forums then it is not the problem of the poster - it is your problem - you are a member of many forums – you hop from forum to forum. If you do that you should be prepared to see repetition of some content.

 

This world is surviving/ existing on things that are available at many / all places across the world. If you have objection to things that are available at many places then you should stop breathing air, stop drinking water and stop eating food.

 

Why do you breathe the same air which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are breathing?

 

Why do you drink the same water which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are drinking?

 

Why do you eat the same food which is available everywhere – which millions of other people are eating?

 

Why do you use the same [english] language that is being used at millions of other places?

 

 

sushil_yadav

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[taoareyou]

You spend so much time telling everyone in all these forums what they should do, giving them suggestions as to what you feel they need to focus on while at the same time stating that "Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet".

 

You are like a gun store owner calling for the ban of guns. To have credibility, you need to practice what you preach my friend. So here is are my suggestions for you, ones that will let people see you as someone who is serious, rather than a standard issue Internet troll:

 

1. Stop posting rants attacking humanity. Sure fire sign of a nutcase. In fact, stay off the Internet as a whole.

2. Live the lifestyle you want to promote. Nobody goes to an obese person for fitness training.

3. Start small. Find others near you who are of like mind and grow. Let others take notice of you and they will spread the ideas to more.

 

As long as you continue the method you have chosen, you are defeating yourself.

Edited January 13, 2013 by taoareyou

[sushil_yadav]

You spend so much time telling everyone in all these forums what they should do, giving them suggestions as to what you feel they need to focus on while at the same time stating that "Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet".

 

You are like a gun store owner calling for the ban of guns. To have credibility, you need to practice what you preach....

 

I am indeed practicing what I preach.

 

This is the only article I have written in my entire life......And it is only about 20 - 25 pages in print.....I don't engage in endless discussion, debate and arguments.

 

 

1. Stop posting rants attacking humanity.

 

What a joke!!!!

 

It is the human species [industrial Society] which has tortured, slaughtered and decimated millions of other species......It is the human species which has destroyed most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth and this person says "Don't attack humanity".....What a joke!!!!

.

.

 

I never posted for you.

 

No one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to read the thread or reply to it.

 

There are hundreds of other threads in this forum which might be more appropriate for you.

 

Keep away from the thread and let other members and guests read.

 

And finally, I don't need a certificate from a joker like you who is millions of light years away from understanding the issue.

..

Edited January 15, 2013 by sushil_yadav

[thelerner]

Sushil how would you address the fact that hunter gathering humans might also destroy the world or at least parts of its eco diversity. You mentioned earlier the loss of 4 elephants. Hunter Gatherers in the Prehistoric America probably hunted mammoths, wooly rhinoceros pretty much all the fuzzy funny creatures in the Ice Age movies to extinction.

 

Civilization has created sanctuaries and protections for such animals now. I strongly suspect without civilization the remaining species would inevitably wind up on someones dinner plate. Is that a concern to you?

Edited January 15, 2013 by thelerner

[taoareyou]

Sushil, like every forum troll, isn't interested in logic. A population of seven billion people suddenly abandoning technology to become "hunters and gatherers" would decimate the "biodiversity". Animals would once again be hunted to extinction. Farming is a technological step above gathering and certainly something that would have to be abandoned by our industrial society. Farming that supports the populations we have is incredibly hi-tech. Without technology, without industry, we would quickly consume all the food sources before they could naturally replenish on their own.

 

He claims to have studied the issue of the problems of industrialization for over 15 years but has only come up with a solution that will have a more devastating effect on the planet than the problem.

 

He personally attacks those who point out these flaws. Someone who is sincerely trying to "sell" an idea, or convince people of the validity of their point of view does not insult their audience. Trying to bully anyone into a position with "if you don't agree with me, then you don't really understand the issue, so leave" is the practice of someone who is simply seeking confrontation.

 

Conclusion: Standard issue troll, spamming forums, looking for arguments for their own entertainment. Nothing more to it.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

oh for cryin'....

 

 

 

I'm with sushil on this one; the industrial, mechanized, homogenized, stagnated civilized society is a damnation upon the spirit and the mind; the irony is that the only means to address the masses is the hyppocritical approach of technology.

 

Fine. har-har. funny.

""""idiot wants to save the world by using the problem he says is destroying the world to tell us all that we can help save it. what idiot ha!""""

 

I get it.

 

 

Now, let's back up a little.

 

7+billion humans isnt a good thing. How in god's name, from his anus to his brain stem, could you possibly think that 1+billion people is even good, let alone the additional 6 billion more we've got! Damn straight we'd fuck the bio diversity in a night's chaotic struggle to survive! BUT WE BROUGHT THAT ON OURSELVES DIDNT WE?!

 

I use the term "we" VERY loosely.

 

 

I value life, but i value more than the life quantity is teh life quality, and industrial socirty has blasted quality into shit and quantity into fodder. NO ONE BUYS HUMANS IN BULK EXCEPT MILITARY.

 

 

 

So what the fuck, do you understand yet, or do we need more children caught under lawn mowers, elderly electroctured by computers, house pets being more alert to the heartbeats of babies than their own WoW addict parents, and internet arguments?!

 

 

 

I'd rather be hunting/gathering for life, from teen age till death. but that is not an option available to me, go figure. so instead, i do what IS available to me: Gripe about the world on the internet where i am easier to ignore.

 

 

Cuz i have better options for reaching my goals. FFS.

[sushil_yadav]

Sushil, like every forum troll, isn't interested in logic. A population of seven billion people suddenly abandoning technology to become "hunters and gatherers" would decimate the "biodiversity". Animals would once again be hunted to extinction. Farming is a technological step above gathering and certainly something that would have to be abandoned by our industrial society. Farming that supports the populations we have is incredibly hi-tech. Without technology, without industry, we would quickly consume all the food sources before they could naturally replenish on their own.

 

This joker rushes to post silly comments without even reading the thread carefully....This issue has already been discussed many times in this thread.

 

Industrial Society has existed for barely 250 years which comes to almost Zero Percent of Total Human Existence on earth....Humans have spent more than 99.99% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable.

 

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

 

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

 

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

 

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

 

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

 

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

 

Edited January 19, 2013 by sushil_yadav

[thelerner]

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

First by 'We' do you mean include Yourself? Have you begun stopping the thousands of consumer goods and services you use or is this guilty lip service masturbation that others should follow? <rhetorical question, as long you're re-re-reprinting old posts, why shouldn't I?>

 

There are people on this site who come close to practicing what you preach. Except they don't preach, they live it, simply. Sadly from what you've written earlier you're not one of them. Thats why I give you grief. You've stated in the past, if 5 or 6 billion people do what you say, then you'll bravely follow them. I'm saying in your own belief system you're a murderer and earth terrorist, and aren't willing to give up modern luxuries to walk the walk.

 

Me, I'm a freakin cave man who built a time machine 120,000 years ago. You know why? Cause it sucked, fresh air, clean water and lots of things that wanted to eat me. Technology rules!!

[sushil_yadav]

..

Exploitation of the East / Non Western countries by the West which began with colonization is going to continue till the last days of human existence on earth.

Consumer Goods that are being consumed in America are being manufactured in China.....All the environmental destruction during the manufacturing process is taking place in China.

After consumption the West ships the consumer goods back to the East for recycling which destroys even more environment.

 

Millions of acres of South American rain forests have been cut down to create grazing fields for cattle whose beef is imported by US to feed its population [half of which has become obese].

America has been buying consumer goods with borrowed money.....People are fools to believe that America is going to pay back its foreign debt in future.

No country is going to pay back its debt in future.....There is no future left for the human species.....Collapse of millions of species has already happened.....Human collapse is just around the corner.

 

America is a country whose lifestyle has become synonymous with decadence.....The country with 5% of world population consuming 25 - 40% of world resources.

The biggest beggar in the world living life King Size with borrowed money.

Eating and Drinking to excess with borrowed money.

Half to two-third of population growing fat with borrowed money.

Attacking other countries and funding wars with borrowed money.

$50,000 debt on every citizen of America.....$50,000 debt on every child, man and woman in America.

This is where consumerist lifestyle leads to.
..

Edited January 26, 2013 by sushil_yadav

[taoareyou]

The troll has gone from anti-industry rants to a standard issue anti-US rant. Just when I thought he couldn't have less credibility. lol. I wonder how long this will be allowed to go on?

[sushil_yadav]

..
Truth hurts.......doesn't it????

..

 

Exploitation of the East by the West is a truth, a reality.

 

My own country was looted, plundered and exploited by the British for 200 years.

 

Go and study some history before you post your silly comments in this forum.

 

The exploitation began with colonization and continues till today.

 

Moreover, the post is totally relevant to this thread which is about the destructive impact of Industrialization and consumerism......Industrial Society has exploited millions of other species and it has also exploited fellow human beings/ societies.

..

Edited January 26, 2013 by sushil_yadav

[thelerner]

Question is, if you go back 200 years before Western exploitation was it really all that rosy? Study history in depth, beyond nationalistic programming there was extreme caste based prejudices, internecine wars and injustice. <which is why the East Indian Company had such an easy time controlling such a rich country> By which I am not saying the English did India any favors, just that like most places it had its problems. Go back 1,000 years to the non tech middle ages and was it paradise? Not really. People were still attacking and stealing from others. Its not a tech thing, its a dark human one.

 

You think taking away guns and a few billion people will protect the animals? Nope, we'll hunt'em to extinction for dinner. Something that won't happen now <for big mammals> because people care enough to set up sanctuaries, zoos, and best of all repopulation efforts to re-introduce endangered animals back into the wild. You think industry is the sole producer of pollution? People died, choked to death in there beds by extreme coal pollution. Knock out coal you've got people burning wood and cutting down whole forests. Thankfully whales are a renewable low tech source of fuel, right?

 

In fact your future is a dystopian one, where central command finds and destroy all tech. Even warming yourself with coal or other fuels might be considered an arrestable offense. Certainly all metal, agriculture, maybe even textiles would be outlawed for being too civilized or industrial? Perhaps the worst crime of all would be writing because that is the ultimate way to transmit ideas. Progress outlawed at pain of death. Yuck.

 

You complain about colonization<and you have a good point actually>,but your wishlist includes mass genocide and repression on a level they could never imagine! Please imagine for a moment if the English had been commanded by a person like yourself. First cull most of the population, then knock back all tech in the country to prehistoric levels, kill or re-educate those who resist. Sound good? Not to me.

 

Ultimately your vision is so dark, you can only theorize about it, and wouldn't dare live it yourself. And that I find the is the final nail in your arguments coffin. You don't dare practice what you preach, not unless an evil overlord forced it on you.

Edited January 26, 2013 by thelerner

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

For several decades environmentalists have been warning modern society that ecosystems are getting destroyed - that consumerist lifestyle is not sustainable.

 

But modern society which was busy chasing progress, growth and development did not listen. It refused to believe there was any environmental crisis or problem. It said science and technology will always find a solution - if earth gets destroyed we will move on to another planet.

 

Impossible dreams were sold to people in the name of science and technology.

 

Moving to another planet would probably rank as the most impossible of all impossible things.

 

One space shuttle exploded during take off - another exploded on the return journey.

 

So far man has not been able to go beyond the moon. There is no other life sustaining ecosystem/ planet within the solar system. Outside the solar system planets and galaxies are millions of light years away - billions of light years away.

 

So when are we moving to a new home ?

 

Next year - or 5 years later ?

 

 

sushil_yadav

PowerSwitch

EnviroLink

StrategyTalk

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

 

 

Harsh vibes harmonize when mindful awareness is applied.

Act not upon perceived problems in order to set forth the example; of knowing when not to act.

[JustARandomPanda]

In fact your future is a dystopian one, where central command finds and destroy all tech. Even warming yourself with coal or other fuels might be considered an arrestable offense. Certainly all metal, agriculture, maybe even textiles would be outlawed for being too civilized or industrial? Perhaps the worst crime of all would be writing because that is the ultimate way to transmit ideas. Progress outlawed at pain of death. Yuck.

 

You complain about colonization<and you have a good point actually>,but your wishlist includes mass genocide and repression on a level they could never imagine! Please imagine for a moment if the English had been commanded by a person like yourself. First cull most of the population, then knock back all tech in the country to prehistoric levels, kill or re-educate those who resist. Sound good? Not to me.

 

Ultimately your vision is so dark, you can only theorize about it, and wouldn't dare live it yourself. And that I find the is the final nail in your arguments coffin. You don't dare practice what you preach, not unless an evil overlord forced it on you.

 

+1 for the above. Been reading and participating in the Tar Sands and Anarchy threads in Off-Topic and that made me think of this thread. Maybe you could jump in lerner in those two.

[thelerner]

+1 for the above. Been reading and participating in the Tar Sands and Anarchy threads in Off-Topic and that made me think of this thread. Maybe you could jump in lerner in those two.

yech, actually re-reading it I think I came off too harsh. I'm striving for peace but my nature is to wade into Tar Sands, often self righteously. No one really wins these fights, its just an exercise in who can insult the other most cleverly. Here once again, I got too personal, too fast. Even in my own Personal Discussion space I saw myself shooting from the hip using words like Luddite Paranoia on friends who were just commenting on microwave ovens.

 

Still the most powerful argument is a mirror, going all Yin on there ass. In Sushil's case saying. What if you get your wish? A genie grants it but then says, we'll try it out on your country first. Vaporize 90% of the people, because you're a visionary I'll let you live, but beware, no medication, no tech or textiles. Clean waters going to be hard to find. People may end up killing for it.

 

On the third hand, I understand his longing. The peaceful village away from industrial society, honoring the old ways. Its not just a dream, its out there. One of the lecturer's I was went to recently was Krishna Das the singer and he talked of the little pristine villages up in India's mountainous regions where people sang and kept the old ways. Yet, here he was back in the West.

 

We all want to head for a Hobbit Shire, but in reality the best solution is bring it closer to us. We get closer every fruit tree we plant.

[sushil_yadav]

..

Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Environment has been destroyed by Urban Population, Urban Work and Urban Education.

All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Urban Population and Urban Education.

Industrial Activity has destroyed so much environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.

Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately....Millions of other species get only food from earth....The maximum that man can/ should get is food, clothing and shelter....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working.

Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day....Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day....Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day.... Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day....Nuclear Industry has produced millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.

Progress, Growth, Development.

This is terminology for all unnecessary and destructive work being done by Urban Population.

Growth Rate - Economy Rate - GDP.

These are figures for all unnecessary and destructive work being done by Urban Population.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

If Urban Society stops all its supplies to Villages......electricity, oil, machinery, equipment and consumer goods, Villagers will survive forever.

If Villages stop all their supplies to Cities......Food Grains and Vegetables, Urban Population will die within a month.

[ Villagers need Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment to produce food for the Urban Population , They would not need these things to produce food for themselves]

Urban Work is not only dispensable it is highly injurious to planet earth.

Two centuries of Urban Work after industrialization has destroyed most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth.

Urban Work must stop immediately.

Cities, Urban Dwellers, Urban Work and Urban Education are a curse on this planet.

Urban Dwellers are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Urban Dwellers are serial killers of nature....Serial Killers of Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land.

If consumer goods are eliminated from cities people will not die....If food and water are eliminated from cities people will die.

*Growth Rate* - *Economy Rate* - *GDP*
These are figures of "Ecocide".
These are figures of "crimes against Nature".
These are figures of "destruction of Ecosystems".
These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".

Urban Population is a curse on this planet....Urban Dwellers are a curse on this planet.

Urban Population has destroyed necessary things [Animals, trees, Air, Water and Land] for making unnecessary things [Consumer Goods and Services]

Food, clothing and shelter are necessities, Not thousands of consumer goods and services.

.
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For millions of years "Searching For Food" / "Producing Food" were the primary occupations of almost the entire human population in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Society.

There is Zero chance of saving the little environment that is left on earth without fixing the problem of "Urban Population".

.
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All Urban Dwellers are Eco Killers.....Adults as well as Children.

Urban Adults are already destroying environment by running Industrial Activity for production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services......Children are being groomed to do the same in future through Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.

School and University Education has destroyed environment....All Industrial Activity is being run by Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.

Everything in Cities is destructive in nature......Urban Dwellers, Urban Work, Urban Education.....Everything.

Environment has been destroyed by Urban Dwellers, Urban Work and Urban Education.

The source / cause of all Industrial Activity is Urban Population, Urban Work and Education.

**Urban population trying to save environment is like Petrol trying to extinguish a fire.**

.
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Rural Population of this world is doing work.....Urban Population of this world is doing destructive work.

Rural Population is producing food......Urban Population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services.

Since Urban Population is not producing food, it has created thousands of unnecessary professions to keep itself occupied [People would go crazy without work]....Destructive works and professions of Urban Dwellers include Production of consumer goods and services, Marketing of consumer goods and services, Jobs in Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex, All kinds of unnecessary research and jobs in hundreds of other fields.

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Why should rest of the world suffer for the decadent and destructive lifestyle of Urban Dwellers????

Why should Forests be destroyed for the Industrial Projects of Urban Dwellers????

Why should Animals and Trees die for the Industrial Projects of Urban Dwellers????

Why should Villages and Tribal Land be destroyed for the Industrial Projects of Urban Dwellers????

Why should Rivers, Lakes and Oceans be destroyed for the Industrial Projects of Urban Dwellers????

.
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A fraction of world population producing food for entire population....This is the root cause of all environmental destruction.

Rural Population producing food for Urban Population....This is the root cause of all environmental destruction.

Urban Population is not producing food, It is doing *Extra* Work which is causing *Extra* Destruction of environment.....Urban Population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services which has led to *Exponential* Extra Destruction of environment.

All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run and promoted by Urban Population of the world.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.

Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable.....Agrarian Society was sustainable.....The question of Industrial Society being sustainable doesn't arise.

We cannot save environment by destroying more of it.....We cannot save environment by destroying it for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
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Animal Species had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Hunter_Gatherer Society had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Agrarian Society had less than Two Percent Urban Population.......All these societies sustained for millions of years collectively.

The current Industrial Society which has 50% Urban Population worldwide has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after Industrial Revolution.......Industrial Activity has been promoted by Urban Population......Industrial Activity has been promoted by people who do not produce food.

This planet can sustain Animal Species.....It can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Human Society......It can sustain Agrarian Human Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Human Society.

This planet can only sustain food producing societies where almost the entire population is engaged in food production......It cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of world population is growing food for entire population and the remaining 50% living in cities is promoting Industrial Activity.

Animals saved environment for millions of years because they destroyed it only for food.....Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food.....Agrarian Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

In the Animal Kingdom, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in "Searching for Food" / "Growing Food".

It is the Urban Population that is engaged in and promoting all kinds of Industrial Activity ......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.

Food, clothing and shelter......These are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans......The only way to save the remaining environment is by reorganizing the entire population so that food production remains the only primary activity just like it was for millions of years before Industrialization.

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Industrial Society has existed for barely 250 years which comes to almost Zero Percent of Total Human Existence on earth....In fact Industrial Society has existed for only about 100 years....Although Industrial Revolution started 250 years ago most of the world became heavily industrialized only in the last 100 years....100 years of Industrial Activity has destroyed this planet.....100 years of Industrial Activity has destroyed what was not destroyed in millions of years on earth.

Humans have spent more than 99.99% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable on earth.

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A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.....The food should of course be vegan/ vegetarian as far as possible.
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[thelerner]

Please break down the big points of your wish list. Be specific.

 

How much would you like the population weaned? and how?

What tech would be allowed? Any metals?

Any medicines or those with such treatable conditions like diabetics killed?

Shelter. What would be allowed, only dead trees? Concrete? Bricks?

Clothing. Textiles allowed, or only dead animals?

Would trade be allowed? Money or only barter?

How would you envision these things being enforced?

What punishments for spreading knowledge, building anything helpful and any general improvement?

Say someone wants to develop penicillin? Death sentence?

 

Lastly what if you got everything you wanted but it just took place in your country? Close your eyes imagine it. Can you see it? Are there dead bodies there? How many? 100's of millions? Fine disintegrate them away, look at the survivors. How many will survive? How many will die fighting for nontainted water? Food? Take time to see the first days and weeks of your vision. Are you alive in it? Do people know you're the one who decimated everything they had?

Edited March 20, 2013 by thelerner

[Birch]

There are people working in urban settings to improve the relationships with nature. I thought I'd mention that part. And they're working hard at it.

 

I think if we say to ourselves that urban life is not any kind of ecology and that the only ecology is to be found away from urban settings, that's a misunderstanding.

 

Here's an interesting idea http://realty.com/housing-news/detroit-changing-entire-city-into-farmland/

[三江源]

The troll has gone from anti-industry rants to a standard issue anti-US rant. Just when I thought he couldn't have less credibility. lol. I wonder how long this will be allowed to go on?

Hi taoareyou.

 

Anytime you see something which breaks forum rules, and you think it may require moderation, it's fine to click the 'report' button and share what you see as contravening ToS here. Then you will have brought it to moderator attention and it can be discussed in Concierge.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

there are forces in this universe far beyond man's power to own or control. Humankind, in spite of its misleading, is not the ultimate authority over nature, and in its efforts to become gods, it will wipe itself out of existence.

Industrial society has begin whittling away our minds. Next, the digital society will waste away our bodies.