Keep it clean please

[Pero]

[Gerard]

Yes I'm aware that some people find my behaviour somewhat unacceptable at times but it's just my way of breaking the Kunlun mantra or whatever monotone is being spun into a frenzied stench. I was banned a couple of months back for saying Max was a conman! I've since refrained from making such comments about the guru although the whole situation is annoying as people keep hyping Max yet can't provide any facts.

 

Hey I'm getting bored of talking about Max although the constant guru worship is rather pathetic.

 

 

Patrick you need to control that excess Yang you have. I feel you are a fire horse. Hmm...in Feng Shui this year is either a very auspicious one or a very negative one due to that Yang excess.

 

Of all the fire horses I came across in my life they all were just trouble: alcoholics, egotistic and loud. Another poor lady underwent brain surgery to remove an aneurysm of the size of a golf ball.

 

Just keep working on it.

 

Remember that kindness to all sentient beings is something we all should strive on.

 

Read this please:

 

http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/sutras/metta-sutra.html

 

If someone you believe is unethical let them be that way, they also suffer and have their own karmic issues. Send them positive energy so they can awaken one day to the teachings of the Buddha. Negativity should be counterbalanced with loving kindness energy.

 

 

I hope I haven't offended you with my post. It is not my intention.

 

 

 

 

 

 

PD: I am also a fire horse.

Edited November 7, 2008 by durkhrod chogori

[mat black]

Sorry Matt but you're talking pseudo spirituality there mate. People can only be what they are and conforming to some, supposed, ideal is like trying to put square pegs in round holes. Yes I've had a good few slaps in my time, which is fine, but I don't go around trying to tell people how they should or shouldn't live their life. Having said that I can smell bullsh*t from a mile away.

 

I think it comes down to open-mindedness with a good pinch of tolerance. Or perhaps people miss the good old days of public hangings for bun theft?

 

Pseudo spirituality? Oh, is suggesting that we watch what we say pseudo spirituality? No worries call it that.

The Yellow Elders' Stone Book Of Plain Words says:

"Now TAO, virtue, benevolance, rectitude and decorum - these five things are all one principle"

 

Our speech actions and intentions reflect where our heart and mind are - nothing pseudo about that.

 

Saying that people can only be what they are is simply to surrender to one's conditioning and act acording to it and then it's easy to remain in the same pattern of behaviour claiming that it's just 'how I am'. But what we are is what we have become according to the things we have done, that's all.

If someone swears and uses harsh speech, i personally have no beef with that, but just be aware that when we do act in such a way we are effectively spitting in our own face as well as other peoples' face - and some people don't like that and so they reflect it back to us......and on and on it goes

Cause and effect can be very subtle yet profound .....................reminds me of a zen saying something along the lines of 'a butterfly flapping it's wings and the effect being felt on the other side of the world'.

 

The masters, Buddhas etc didn't tell people how to live ther lives in the sense of giving orders..........they taught harmonious principles and offered people the freedom to decide - with the warning that we experince the affect of our words & actions sooner or later.

Edited November 7, 2008 by mat black

[Patrick Brown]

Pseudo spirituality? Oh, is suggesting that we watch what we say pseudo spirituality? No worries call it that.

The Yellow Elders' Stone Book Of Plain Words says:

"Now TAO, virtue, benevolance, rectitude and decorum - these five things are all one principle"

 

Our speech actions and intentions reflect where our heart and mind are - nothing pseudo about that.

 

Saying that people can only be what they are is simply to surrender to one's conditioning and act acording to it and then it's easy to remain in the same pattern of behaviour claiming that it's just 'how I am'. But what we are is what we have become according to the things we have done, that's all.

If someone swears and uses harsh speech, i personally have no beef with that, but just be aware that when we do act in such a way we are effectively spitting in our own face as well as other peoples' face - and some people don't like that and so they reflect it back to us......and on and on it goes

Cause and effect can be very subtle yet profound .....................reminds me of a zen saying something along the lines of 'a butterfly flapping it's wings and the effect being felt on the other side of the world'.

 

The masters, Buddhas etc didn't tell people how to live ther lives..........they offered people the freedom to decide - with the warning that we experince the affect of our words & actions sooner or later.

You are wrong and in error. We all have a nature that is our own.

[mat black]

You are wrong and in error. We all have a nature that is our own.

There's the inherent nature and the causative nature.

The inherent nature is originaly bright and undefiled.

The causastive nature has been superimposed over the inherent nature, it's the one that we have created through discrimination & habits and are most often identified with these days.

If this is wrong, can a wise advisor please correct me.

 

Namo Avalokiteshvara.

Edited November 8, 2008 by mat black

[rodgerj]

Edited August 30, 2009 by rodgerj

[Patrick Brown]

There's the inherent nature and the causative nature.

The inherent nature is originaly bright and undefiled.

The causastive nature has been superimposed over the inherent nature, it's the one that we have created through discrimination & habits and are most often identified with these days.

If this is wrong, can a wise advisor please correct me.

 

Namo Avalokiteshvara.

Still wrong.

 

You are so full of yourself. Don't worry Pat, everyone here loves you and you are the center of attention. We think everything you have to say is spiritual and informative. Now get over yourself please.... It's almost embarrassing.

!

 

You say, I say say = monkey doo!

[Stigweard]

There's the inherent nature and the causative nature.

The inherent nature is originaly bright and undefiled.

The causastive nature has been superimposed over the inherent nature, it's the one that we have created through discrimination & habits and are most often identified with these days.

If this is wrong, can a wise advisor please correct me.

 

Namo Avalokiteshvara.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you Mat. Couldn't say it better.

 

Patrick you are using one snippet of Taoist philosophy (i.e. "We all have a nature that is our own") to justify your arrogance and poor behaviour. You pluck one hair from the horses hide and use it as a banner for self-indulgence.

 

Edited November 8, 2008 by Stigweard

[Pietro]

There's the inherent nature and the causative nature.

The inherent nature is originaly bright and undefiled.

The causastive nature has been superimposed over the inherent nature, it's the one that we have created through discrimination & habits and are most often identified with these days.

If this is wrong, can a wise advisor please correct me.

 

Namo Avalokiteshvara.

 

Hi Mat,

I am not wiser, but I might be a bit more knowledgeable.

 

At least following what I learned from Bruce.

And this is how the human state is seen in the water tradition of taoism.

 

There are 8 energy bodies. One is common to all, that is the Tao. To be one with the Tao means to be one with the universe (albeit, I am not sure about the vice versa). The next body going down is the body of individuality. This is not the same for each of us, and is not coming from society. To reach this body means to have integrated everything below, and be one. I am not at this stange, but essentially this is the stage where in this tradition the spiritual game begins. Before is all monkeys trying to be human beings. This is also the stage where a person would go to another body as one unit, after death. Before you get fragmented after death.

 

Then below the body of individuality you have the other bodies. Causal (or karmic), psychic, mental, emotional, energetic and physical. Here you have blockages, and those blockages are also coming from society.

 

Now I am not saying that the desire (sacred right, according to me) to foul speak is not coming from social conditioning. To be able to say this I should not only have reached myself the body of individuality, but be able to know if Patrick has reached himself the body of individuality. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. It is not my business.

 

Said this I would suggest that you look a bit to the philosophy of the western civilization. This whole idea that human is naturally pure, and then corrupted by society does not come only from taoism, but in different ways has a long root over here too.

Look at french philosopher, and illuminism, and Thureau, but you can go back to some presocratics. I wish I haven't passed all my Philosophy classes in high school planning the next D&D adventure.

 

But rereading those roots might give you the opportunity to find out, consciously, wether you agree with them or you don't. If you don't, you run the risk to not notice that you might have picked them up from society unconsciously, and then you will be the person unconsciously controlled by society, ... to say that society is controlling us. Indeed! Hehe.

 

I am telling you this, because I did a similar work, on a different topic (it was about being rebellious), and it was a humbling experience to find that all the thoughts I thought were so personal and creative and unique, and mine, were actually totally classic for a male of my age, and of my background.

 

What I am telling you is, the idea that we are essentially pure and society has corrupted us, is just one of those patterns. Exploring where this idea might be useful, even if at the end you might still agree with it.

 

Hope this helped.

Pietro

 

P.S. for what is worth, in the theory of the 8 energy bodies, as it was explained to me, you can also find a difference between Buddhism and Taoism. They both divide the human experience in the same way, but according to B. is not possible to be in all the 8 bodies at once. So you cannot be in the physical body while being in the Tao Body. One has to go. According to T., as it was theorethically presented to me, it is possible. Such people are called immortal, but I think, they still physically get old and die.

[ZenStatic]

However I will not apologize for making a stance for decency, respect, and purity.

 

What you should apologize for, is insulting all the other members of this forum. Because you are trying to push YOUR ideas of decency, respect and purity on everyone else. Your most common saying throughout your posts is I. It's not all about you, or do you not get that part yet?

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you Mat. Couldn't say it better.

 

Patrick you are using one snippet of Taoist philosophy (i.e. "We all have a nature that is our own") to justify your arrogance and poor behaviour. You pluck one hair from the horses hide and use it as a banner for self-indulgence.

 

Heh. Pot meet kettle. Except you are using your own sanctimonius attitude to try and justify your arrogance and poor behavior. I'm willing to bet that this forum software has a censoring capability to it, that many forums use to keep bad words out. Such is not in use here, now is it? And I am sure that is by design. So then maybe you also have an underlying issue with the way Sean runs the forums. The point I am trying to make is that if the profanity being used by a grown man bothers you so much, then maybe HE isn't the problem. Think on that. But then, if you just want to brush off what I have to say again, fuck off

[froggie]

"just because you could doesn't mean you should" - and actually also: just because you can: make careful considerations why you shouldn't. (or likewise should, consider both from time to time.)

[Stigweard]

[三江源]

.

Edited March 29, 2015 by 三江源

[mat black]

The whole idea that abrasive is more 'genuine' than polite is so naieve and tiresomely adolescent.

>>nods in respectful agreement<<

Stigweard, like a lot of us, loves language and has a deep interest in it and sensitivity to it. I respect that. He deserves that respect. He contributes a lot to the board.

 

For which , thankyou.

Agreed Cat & thank you too.

Stig keeps the mood light, he is funny witty and wise and helpful to many people who post questions for advice.

Edited November 8, 2008 by mat black

[Patrick Brown]

I dont have a problem with you Stigweard. I think you are right in this instance and I think Mat Black is very wise and is right.

 

If we had a poster who used profanity and was very wise / interesting and really contributed to the board, maybe I'd be fine with it. And maybe I just wouldnt. It would depend on what that individual offered.

 

I always enjoyed RJ here, and he was a legend in his own lunchtime on this board. And he knew how to use swear words. He also, I think, had a huge heart and was genuinely steeped in his taoist practices, as far as I could see.

 

It's not what you say, it's the way that you say it. Some posters on this board have content to offer yet their tone is so off putting that people dont want to listen.Or dont feel able to listen, it is so unpalateable.

 

Others have nothing to say, and attract like minded souls for internet time passing.

 

I think 'keep it clean' is such a reasonable request.

 

And I think those that cant - usually - have something personal of their own to look at, if that basic rule has to kicked against. Problems with authority figures or 'censorship' , being acted out on taobums message board.. oh puh- leese. Nerd city.

 

The whole idea that abrasive is more 'genuine' than polite is so naieve and tiresomely adolescent.

 

Stigweard, like a lot of us, loves language and has a deep interest in it and sensitivity to it. I respect that. He deserves that respect. He contributes a lot to the board.

 

For which , thankyou.

Err but with respect cat you don't like me do you? Hmm so who's acting like a child? Sometimes I swear sometimes I don't but the truth of the matter is that I'm pretty shy and humble and it's only the self-indulgent intellectual posturing that winds me up. I used to have a pretty big library of books and then I stopped reading and gave them away. Now I have only a few books one of which is the 'Tao Te Ching' which seems to always find me. I sell my copy of the 'Tao Te Ching' for beer money and then I find I have another copy!

 

Wisdom isn't enlightenment therefore fools can talk all day yet can't see in the dark!

 

The bottom line is that there is a degree of intellectual snobbery here which is often pretty oppressive.

[Patrick Brown]

P.S. for what is worth, in the theory of the 8 energy bodies, as it was explained to me, you can also find a difference between Buddhism and Taoism. They both divide the human experience in the same way, but according to B. is not possible to be in all the 8 bodies at once. So you cannot be in the physical body while being in the Tao Body. One has to go. According to T., as it was theorethically presented to me, it is possible. Such people are called immortal, but I think, they still physically get old and die.

Yes I've heard similar things although I went the Occult route. I often think that the disagreements between Taoism and Buddhism are just a smokescreen. I tend to think that Taoism, what ever that is, dislikes the explicit nature of Buddhism especially Tibetan Buddhism. It's ironic that even though Tibetan Buddhism shouts the truth from the rooftops only a few get it. As for Taoism, well there's the 'Tao Te Ching' and that's that!!

 

Oh and as for the body thing I think a person can only be concious in one body at a time so they are all available but are doorways to different levels of perception. You can't be in the dream realms and the physical at the same time consciously. Of course trying to be in two places at once is sorcery and the road to madness.

[sean]

This forum, this community has a form that we communicate within. The text-based group topic discussion structure is different than an email or a phone call or a face to face chat.

 

At best, in it's own unique way, it facilitates the development of our relationships with one another, with ourselves and with Tao.

 

Our relationships may develop off the forum in other ways, via other mediums, all of which have their own pros and cons.

 

But every medium has inherent constraints.

 

On top of this there are also additional constraints that vary wildly by context.

 

Just like in "real life".

 

A courtroom in session has much different constraints than a gutter punk show in an abandoned warehouse.

 

There are forums online with no rules or moderation whatsoever.

 

There are forums online with strict rules and full time moderators that delete offensive posts, close threads that wander off the original topic, ban without warning for even slight deviations, etc.

 

Naturally there are arguments in favor of both styles and everything in between.

 

Digging deeper, a neo-nazi street rally has much different constraints than a university round table debate.

 

In the former, unbridled and even violent displays of hatred and bigotry are allowed free expression. Expected even. In the latter it is expected that participants intelligently discuss their views with an open mind and physical outbursts are not tolerated.

 

The neo-nazi redneck is typically not going to feel very comfortable sitting with a bunch of educated turtlenecks. Likewise, the post-graduate philosophers are not going to find a loud street rally the appropriate place to share the nuances of their sociopolitical theories.

 

In this sense some environments mutually exclude certain kinds of participants.

 

Or, more gently put, and also more relevant to this discussion here: The imposed constraints of certain environments discourage certain kinds of behavior while simultaneously encouraging the expression of other kinds of behavior.

 

This is not only inevitable, it's great.

 

I say all this to help provide some context for the simple fact that, yes, like every other place you find yourself in life, there are constraints to what is acceptable on this forum. Ideally the constraints emerge naturally from the consensual values of all participants. But there will likely always be cases where it is necessary to impose a little structure here and there. Because my experience is that forums without rules, without structure, without constraints, rapidly degenerate into chaos. And not the cool, fun kind of chaos.

 

Best,

Sean

[Patrick Brown]

Or, more gently put, and also more relevant to this discussion here: The imposed constraints of certain environments discourage certain kinds of behavior while simultaneously encouraging the expression of other kinds of behavior.

 

This is not only inevitable, it's great.

 

I say all this to help provide some context for the simple fact that, yes, like every other place you find yourself in life, there are constraints to what is acceptable on this forum. Ideally the constraints emerge naturally from the consensual values of all participants. But there will likely always be cases where it is necessary to impose a little structure here and there. Because my experience is that forums without rules, without structure, without constraints, rapidly degenerate into chaos. And not the cool, fun kind of chaos.

 

Best,

Sean

Yes Sean I hear you and you was respectful enough this time to warn me rather than just pressing the ban button. I know I can get out of hand but it's not intentional and I don't go around looking to upset people, in fact I try to bring a degree of levity together with an exchange of knowledge and ideas.

 

Swearing is one thing but trying to oppress one individual because he's rocked a few peoples sensibilities is rather fascist! Am I wrong? We've got Stig, cat and Matt on this thread and we have Darin on another thread: http://www.thetaobums.com/Iand39ve-ran-out...ords-t7417.html all being somewhat oppressive so it's beginning to look like a witch hunt.

 

All rather sad really.

[Stigweard]

[Patrick Brown]

Edited November 8, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[sean]

Patrick, for what it's worth there is no policy here about cursing. The only explicit rules here are no personal insults, no porn and nothing illegal. I could be mistaken, but my sense is that it's not just your cursing, it's the combination of your cursing directed AT specific targets that is offending some people here (not to mention breaking the rules). I'm saying this based on the fact that plenty of other members curse occasionally, but in a way that feels less caustic, ie: I had the shittiest day at work today, what the fuck with my mood this winter? Contrast with "Margaret Thatcher is a whore", "America is fucked", etc.

 

Best,

Sean

[Patrick Brown]

Patrick, for what it's worth there is no policy here about cursing. The only explicit rules here are no personal insults, no porn and nothing illegal. I could be mistaken, but my sense is that it's not just your cursing, it's the combination of your cursing directed AT specific targets that is offending some people here (not to mention breaking the rules). I'm saying this based on the fact that plenty of other members curse occasionally, but in a way that feels less caustic, ie: I had the shittiest day at work today, what the fuck with my mood this winter? Contrast with "Margaret Thatcher is a whore", "America is fucked", etc.

 

Best,

Sean

Yes I agree that my tone can turn a tad aggressive / passionate at times but I think we're all guilty of that. As for America being fucked well I think it's more like the world is fucked! Ironically I have become a lot less cynical over the last year or so perhaps because I've simply accepted that it's all just part of a cycle. Having said that I don't believe in perpetuating ignorance. The whole of democracy is a lie as whoever 'seemingly' wins is still a servant of the beast, you know like the blind leading the blind.

 

Yes I know I bore the pants off people with my vanity, greed and buSINess rant but it's a fact. Society is built on a whole bunch of fallacies and in fact until recently men and women being single was frowned on unless they were monks or nuns. I mean people used to be despised if they didn't breed! So you see in many ways mankind is enslaved and denying it is the road to hell.

 

Anyway I'll try and be a bit less aggressive as your point was well made.

[Pietro]

Patrick, for what it's worth there is no policy here about cursing. The only explicit rules here are no personal insults, no porn and nothing illegal. I could be mistaken, but my sense is that it's not just your cursing, it's the combination of your cursing directed AT specific targets that is offending some people here (not to mention breaking the rules). I'm saying this based on the fact that plenty of other members curse occasionally, but in a way that feels less caustic, ie: I had the shittiest day at work today, what the fuck with my mood this winter? Contrast with "Margaret Thatcher is a whore", "America is fucked", etc.

 

Best,

Sean

 

Yes, Sean, but America IS fucked.

That is not swearing, that is a descriptive statement.

(and no, not because of those elections)

 

 

The whole idea that abrasive is more 'genuine' than polite is so naieve and tiresomely adolescent.

 

I disagree with this.

 

And the idea of caling something naive and adolescent is motherly, and unrespectful of a discussion between adults.

 

I have emailed many times with Ron, and Ron was more at ease when he was able to swear.

Bruce, is an example of a teacher who swears a lot. He can speak like a PhD, as he is, but when he is relaxed his wording would make Patrick blush, and Darin escape.

 

There are some people who are more confortable swearing a bit.

I think a lot of it depends on what was your education, and what are your values. FOr example if you want to be a sailor, you might end up swearing a lot, just because you want to be like them.

 

I personally don't like swearing, but I am confortable with people swearing (at least usually). What I am not confortable with is people who feel constrained.

[zanshin]

Cause and effect can be very subtle yet profound .....................reminds me of a zen saying something along the lines of 'a butterfly flapping it's wings and the effect being felt on the other side of the world'.

 

I don't think that's zen- that's Edward Lorenz's title of his famous paper in chaos model of dynamic systems "Does the flap of a butterfly's wing in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas?"

[Pietro]

Yes I've heard similar things although I went the Occult route. I often think that the disagreements between Taoism and Buddhism are just a smokescreen. I tend to think that Taoism, what ever that is, dislikes the explicit nature of Buddhism especially Tibetan Buddhism. It's ironic that even though Tibetan Buddhism shouts the truth from the rooftops only a few get it. As for Taoism, well there's the 'Tao Te Ching' and that's that!!

 

Oh and as for the body thing I think a person can only be concious in one body at a time so they are all available but are doorways to different levels of perception. You can't be in the dream realms and the physical at the same time consciously. Of course trying to be in two places at once is sorcery and the road to madness.

 

 

YEs, many people think Tibetan Buddhism and Taoism were once one, and then diverged.

 

What I mean is that you can reach the 8th body before dying.

 

Said that I can assure you that you can be conscious of multiple bodies at the same time.

I can quite easily be present in my emotional body and my physical one, for example.

Just like you can be present to your left hand or your right hand, or you can balance your attention, and be present to both of them at the same time.

 

I don't think that's zen- that's Edward Lorenz's title of his famous paper in chaos model of dynamic systems "Does the flap of a butterfly's wing in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas?"

1971 if I remember well.

kudos for someone knowing Science!!

That paper was the one that eventually originated the whole Chaos theory.

Edward Lorentz, btw, passed away just last year.

 

Cheers for this by the way Pietro.

Thanks Stig,

this morning I actually realised that I needed to clarify that the blockages don't come only from society, they also come from our actions, our karma, our past life karma, and interestingly other's karma. Because deep enough we are all one. So please don't spill the milk or I'll have to clean