Cause and Effect

[Stigweard]

I have been asked by my local Buddhist Temple to write an article on the topic of "Cause and Effect" from a Taoist perspective.

 

Before I commit pen to paper I would love to hear your perspectives on this topic.

 

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[Stigweard]

Let me be more direct:

 

What do you think are the root causes the experiences we have? Is life just random? Or are experiences and events caused or created by 'something'? If so "What?"

[Unconditioned]

Cause and effect... if only I had more time!

 

I'll try to keep this short for now and maybe will have time tonight to write more. I think there are different 'levels' of cause and effect. I'll start at the gross level and go deeper.

 

In general every event has a preceding set of events/conditions. So every effect has a preceding cause. The heat from the sun, mixed with the moisture in the air, mixed with the nutrients in the soil creates the conditions that cause a tree to 'breathe', etc.

 

On a more subtle level, our minds operate the same way. Every thought has a preceding thought that causes the next thought.

 

On an even more subtle level, all manifestations have the single cause behind them, the Tao. From the Tao, all things emerge. It is the supreme cause of all effects. It is the root cause, the 'thing' that sets all things in motion , eternally/infinitely (it is outside of time and linear sequence as those are functions of the mind and memory).

 

So are events random. The answer in my opinion is yes and no depending . On the gross level it seems as though we have a choice so things are not random. At the mind level we think conscious thoughts so again, not random - our ego determines what we're thinking.

 

If you go deeper though, what is our ego? what is our will? It is a function of consciousness. Is our consciousness random? What is the root of consciousness? Awareness. Is awareness random? No. Awareness is choiceless, it is pure, uninfluenced, the source of consciousness / mind.

 

The long and short is: at the lowest level, all things are a result of one source, the Tao. This source acts as it does without influence. Therefore it is not random. We THINK that we have a will of our own but we don't! It is a function of conditions (just like the plant). Everything we think, the persona we maintain is a function of conditioning. It is not random nor is it not random - it is just as it is, causes and effects.

[doc benway]

I sometimes do translation of Chinese characters for my teacher. Translating Chinese into English exposes the profound difference in the languages that I think speaks directly to this issue, and possibly the reason why you were asked to discuss this topic, Stig, I think it's a trick question!

 

The English language (and other Western languages) are predicated on the concept of cause and effect. Subject/action/object and so forth. This is so deeply ingrained in our psyche and thought process that we cannot step out of it lightly. The Chinese, on the other hand, have a language that does not rely on such a temporal construct. Each character evokes a mood, concept, idea, action, or object but the language is constructed without the same rigid cause and effect pattern. The pictographs are simply placed side by side and one interprets them with a much less rigid format.

 

I believe the Western cause and effect premise to be fallacious. I think it's a consequence of the thought process. This can get into a very lengthy discussion but here's something to think about. What is time? If you look into it deeply you may find that time is the movement of thought. This results in an ordering of ideas or events which is experienced as cause and effect. One of the fundamental concepts of Daoism is an awareness of mutual arising and the complementary nature of things (non-temporal) which I think underlies the Chinese mindset, much as the concept of cause and effect (temporal) underlies the Western mindset.

 

Alan Watts does a nice discussion of the nature of time you can find on youtube in 3 parts.

Also, there's a very interesting book on the topic by Huw Price called Time's Arrow and Archimedes Point, or something like that.

 

Good luck Stig!

[daoian]

Cause and effect... if only I had more time![/b]

 

PRECISELY! that's all you needed to say.

 

Time is the father of cause and effect... In the real world... there is not cause nor effect... what is- is what allways had been. There is nothing new under the sun (eclesiastes - solomon).

 

Think about it... we always think that that which came first of two events IS the cause... what if we are wrong? what if it only LOOKS like the trigger pull event happened before the soldier got shot.

 

Many think that the roots of a tree come first... then the tree comes later... in reality... as the roots push down... the seed and tree pushes up... its a net zero event.

 

Time is an illusion. On the earth, there are 24 hours. On mars, there are 24 hours... BUT they end a few minutes before earth's day. Mars has 360 days too... but the martian new years happens by the time summer on earth is just starting... days: 1:2 .. hours: 1:1.05ish.

 

What would happen if you saw a soldier getting gunned down on earth... then raced up to mars ... ... what would you see next? Dattatreya sivababa has a video on cause and effect now.. on youtube.

[Unconditioned]

PRECISELY! that's all you needed to say.

 

Time is the father of cause and effect... In the real world... there is not cause nor effect... what is- is what allways had been. There is nothing new under the sun (eclesiastes - solomon).

 

Think about it... we always think that that which came first of two events IS the cause... what if we are wrong? what if it only LOOKS like the trigger pull event happened before the soldier got shot.

 

Many think that the roots of a tree come first... then the tree comes later... in reality... as the roots push down... the seed and tree pushes up... its a net zero event.

 

Time is an illusion. On the earth, there are 24 hours. On mars, there are 24 hours... BUT they end a few minutes before earth's day. Mars has 360 days too... but the martian new years happens by the time summer on earth is just starting... days: 1:2 .. hours: 1:1.05ish.

 

What would happen if you saw a soldier getting gunned down on earth... then raced up to mars ... ... what would you see next? Dattatreya sivababa has a video on cause and effect now.. on youtube.

 

Quite true - sometimes I tend to over think! Thanks Daoian and Steve for the helpful reminders.

 

There are also examples of effects happening before their causes in particle physics (The Tao of Physics is a great book although a little dated). Time is the basis for cause and effect. Time is dependent on perception and memory - remove those and time, cause, and effect cease. All that is left is what is, was, and will always be... but don't quote me on that, I've been wrong before and I'm sure I will be again!

[Stigweard]

Any other thoughts or perspectives?

[Kundaolinyi]

Cause and effect... if only I had more time!

 

I'll try to keep this short for now and maybe will have time tonight to write more. I think there are different 'levels' of cause and effect. I'll start at the gross level and go deeper.

 

In general every event has a preceding set of events/conditions. So every effect has a preceding cause. The heat from the sun, mixed with the moisture in the air, mixed with the nutrients in the soil creates the conditions that cause a tree to 'breathe', etc.

 

On a more subtle level, our minds operate the same way. Every thought has a preceding thought that causes the next thought.

 

On an even more subtle level, all manifestations have the single cause behind them, the Tao. From the Tao, all things emerge. It is the supreme cause of all effects. It is the root cause, the 'thing' that sets all things in motion , eternally/infinitely (it is outside of time and linear sequence as those are functions of the mind and memory).

 

So are events random. The answer in my opinion is yes and no depending . On the gross level it seems as though we have a choice so things are not random. At the mind level we think conscious thoughts so again, not random - our ego determines what we're thinking.

 

If you go deeper though, what is our ego? what is our will? It is a function of consciousness. Is our consciousness random? What is the root of consciousness? Awareness. Is awareness random? No. Awareness is choiceless, it is pure, uninfluenced, the source of consciousness / mind.

 

The long and short is: at the lowest level, all things are a result of one source, the Tao. This source acts as it does without influence. Therefore it is not random. We THINK that we have a will of our own but we don't! It is a function of conditions (just like the plant). Everything we think, the persona we maintain is a function of conditioning. It is not random nor is it not random - it is just as it is, causes and effects.

 

^This is what I've been thinking for years. It seems as if there is such a thing as 'free will', but it is not what most people think it is. Free will, as it turns out, is actually just another factor in the equasion, a variable in the cycles of change.

 

Many people have argued with me saying things like 'you always have a choice'. I generally felt like they must be wrong, because I've been on both sides of the argument, and they've only been on one side.

 

Still though, seeing how people are often 'held responsible for their actions', I cannot help but seek out my own 'free will'. I don't like being held responsible for things that are out of my control, but to be honest, I really don't think that their definition of 'free will' is anything more than a false sense of power and conrtol.

 

PRECISELY! that's all you needed to say.

 

Time is the father of cause and effect... In the real world... there is not cause nor effect... what is- is what allways had been. There is nothing new under the sun (eclesiastes - solomon).

 

Think about it... we always think that that which came first of two events IS the cause... what if we are wrong? what if it only LOOKS like the trigger pull event happened before the soldier got shot.

 

Many think that the roots of a tree come first... then the tree comes later... in reality... as the roots push down... the seed and tree pushes up... its a net zero event.

 

Time is an illusion. On the earth, there are 24 hours. On mars, there are 24 hours... BUT they end a few minutes before earth's day. Mars has 360 days too... but the martian new years happens by the time summer on earth is just starting... days: 1:2 .. hours: 1:1.05ish.

 

What would happen if you saw a soldier getting gunned down on earth... then raced up to mars ... ... what would you see next? Dattatreya sivababa has a video on cause and effect now.. on youtube.

This too, I agree with.

[Gerard]

Cause: an action be either created by speech, mind or body

 

Effect: the resulting consequence.

 

Practicing Buddhists often engage in Vipassana retreats and follow vows of silence to purify the mind and overcome karma and of course help other sentient beings without expecting anything in return.

 

 

Namo Amitabha.

[Radu]

Karma, cause and effect, action and reaction (like in physics) . Nothing is random. Every effect must have a cause.That's just my 0,002 cents

Edited September 20, 2008 by Radu

[YMWong]

I'd suggest going through this text which is very popular in China and represents a bit the common idea on the subject

 

http://www.terebess.hu/english/taishang.html

 

Best

 

YM

[Spiritual_Aspirant]

I have been asked by my local Buddhist Temple to write an article on the topic of "Cause and Effect" from a Taoist perspective.

 

Before I commit pen to paper I would love to hear your perspectives on this topic.

 

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

 

Well, simply put, there is no such thing as coincidences and randomness. Everything has a cause.

[rain]

causality - domino or ricochet ?

 

effect - pinpoints between these?

Edited September 20, 2008 by rain

[Andrei]

We as human beings are made of three parts: spirit, soul and body. every part is conditioned by universal laws. The body is conditioned by genetics, the ancestors inheritance, as well as medium in which lives, the air that breathes, the water and food. the soul is conditioned by the emotions, mental patterns, hormonal release, body chemistry, astral influences. the spirit is conditioned by the education, beliefs system, culture. there are so many laws that we obey unconsciously and helplessly that made Gurdjieff to say : "everything is mechanical, we have so little choice, is needed a huge effort to change something in a human life"

 

It will be useful if we compare human life in general to a large river which arises from various sources and flows into two separate streams, that is to say, there occurs in this river a dividing of the waters, and we can compare the life of any one man to the one of the drops of water composing this river of life.

Thus there are two directions in the life of humanity: active and passive. Laws are the same everywhere. These two laws, these two currents, continually meet, now crossing each other, now running in parallel. But they never mix; they support each other, they are indispensabe for each other. It was always so and so it will remain.

Now the life of all ordinary men taken together can be thought of as one of these rivers in which each life, whether of a man or of any other living being, is represented by a drop in the river, and the river in itself is a link in the cosmic chain. In accordance with general cosmic laws, the river flows in a fixed direction. All its turns, all its bends, all these changes have a definite purpose. In this purpose every drop plays a part insofar as it is part of the river, but the law of the river as a whole does not extend to individual drops. The changes of position, movement and direction of the drops are completely accidental. At one moment a drop is here; the next moment the drop is there; now it is on the surface, now it has gone to the bottom. Accidentally it rises, accidentally it collides with another and descends; now it moves quickly, now slowly. Whether its life is easy or difficult depends on where it happens to be. There is no individual law for it, no personal fate. Only the whole river has a fate, which is common to all drops. Personal sorrow and joy, happiness and suffering-in that current, all these are accidental.

But the drop has in principle a possibility of escaping from the general current and jumping across to the other, the neighboring stream. This too is a law of Nature. But for this the drop must know how to make use of accidental shocks, and of the momentum of the whole river, so as to come to the surface and be closer to the bank at those places where it is easier to jump across. It must choose not only the right place but also the right time, to make use of winds, currents and storms. Then the drop has a chance to rise with the spray and jump across into the other river.

From the moment it gets into the other river, the drop is in a different world, in a different life, and therefore is under different laws. In this second river a law exists for individual drops, the law of alternating progressing. A drop comes to the top or goes to the bottom, this time not by accident but by law. On coming to the surface, the drop actually becomes heavier and sinks; deep down it loses weight and rises again.

To float on the surface is good for it, to be deep down is bad. Much depends here on skill and effort. In this second river there are different currents and it is necessary to get into the required current. The drop must float on the surface as long as possible in order to prepare itself, to earn the possibility of passing into another current, and so on.

But we are in the first river. As long as we are in this passive current it will carry us wherever it may; as long as we are passive we shall be pushed about and be at the mercy of every accident. We are the slaves of these accidents.

At the same time Nature has given us the possibility of escaping from this slavery. Therefore when we talk about freedom we are talking precisely about crossing over into the other river.

But of course it is not so simple-you cannot cross over merely because you wish. Strong desire and long preparation are necessary. You will have to live through being identified with all the attractions in the first river. You must die to this river.

 

Views from the real world-Early talks with Gurdjieff

[doc benway]

I heard an intriguing discussion several months ago on NPR about an experiment in causality. It had to do with measuring when a person performed an action and when they become aware of the intent to perform that action and when they initiated that action. It was an elegantly designed experiment which seemed to show that in all cases the body prepared itself physiologically for the activity before the person even was aware of the intent to carry out the activity. I'm sorry that I can't recall any meaningful detail but I found it a fascinating discussion.