Compare Dan Tien to Chakra?

[Sloppy Zhang]

So initially through my study of Tai Chi I learned about the dan tien, and that some consider there to be three dan tiens. From what I know, there's the lower dan tien, middle dan tien, and upper dan tien.

 

Now more recently I've come across learning about the chakras. Some sources have attempted to compare the chakras to the dan tiens but... well there's been some confusion.

 

The sixth chakra/third eye is almost always compared with the upper dan tien. This one seems to be most consistent.

 

The middle dan tien, I had always thought to be in the solar plexus area, however some places have the middle dan tien listed as in the heart region, thus corresponding with the heart chakra.

 

The lower dan tien I have seen compared to the third chakra, except the third chakra is most commonly referred to as the solar plexus chakra and that... isn't where the lower dan tien is. The third chakra also moves around in its listing, some sources list the third chakra as in the solar plexus, while others list it in the navel area, which may put it closer to the lower dan tien... Other places have listed the lower dan tien as corresponding with the second chakra, except the second chakra is also sometimes listed higher or lower so depending on where it's read it may be either more or less comparable... it's quite confusing

 

So, I guess the first question would be: do the dan tiens and the chakras correspond with each other at all, or are they pretty much their own separate thing? Is there some overlap, especially considering areas such as the third eye/upper dan tien, there is quite a lot of overlap in terms of location within the body, and things that happen when you learn to stimulate those areas.

 

Now if connections can be made between the two areas... what are the proper connections?

[h.uriahr]

So initially through my study of Tai Chi I learned about the dan tien, and that some consider there to be three dan tiens. From what I know, there's the lower dan tien, middle dan tien, and upper dan tien.

 

Now more recently I've come across learning about the chakras. Some sources have attempted to compare the chakras to the dan tiens but... well there's been some confusion.

 

The sixth chakra/third eye is almost always compared with the upper dan tien. This one seems to be most consistent.

 

The middle dan tien, I had always thought to be in the solar plexus area, however some places have the middle dan tien listed as in the heart region, thus corresponding with the heart chakra.

 

The lower dan tien I have seen compared to the third chakra, except the third chakra is most commonly referred to as the solar plexus chakra and that... isn't where the lower dan tien is. The third chakra also moves around in its listing, some sources list the third chakra as in the solar plexus, while others list it in the navel area, which may put it closer to the lower dan tien... Other places have listed the lower dan tien as corresponding with the second chakra, except the second chakra is also sometimes listed higher or lower so depending on where it's read it may be either more or less comparable... it's quite confusing

 

So, I guess the first question would be: do the dan tiens and the chakras correspond with each other at all, or are they pretty much their own separate thing? Is there some overlap, especially considering areas such as the third eye/upper dan tien, there is quite a lot of overlap in terms of location within the body, and things that happen when you learn to stimulate those areas.

 

Now if connections can be made between the two areas... what are the proper connections?

The 3 dantiens correspond (pretty much) with 3 of the chakras. I wouldnt dwell too much on it because it pretty much depends on your path. Im not too much into the chakra system but again, you say potato I say potahto. In reality, both systems probably compliment each other.

[BigJonMud]

In my experience different energetic models can correspond, but don't necessarily need to.

 

The same as the mind can use one or more different languages to express its cognition, the symbols are as arbitrary and subjective as the mind that uses them.

 

I used to believe that the chakras actually existed. Now, after having used a variety of energetic techniques I believe that we more or less create them for ourselves. What we think, becomes proved. And what we expect becomes experienced.

 

The way that some engines can switch between leaded or unleaded and premium etc,.. or 2wd and 4wd.. automatically, so too can the mind/body make use of what is most appropriate to the individual at that time.

[松永道]

Dantian (丹田)

Dan (丹) means elixir, Tian (田) means field. The elixir resides at the field's center.

 

Chakra means spinning wheel.

 

Draw three circles on top of one another, connecting at their boarders. These are the three fields.

 

O - upper

O - middle

O - lower

 

Place a dot in the center of each circle. These are the three elixiers.

 

Draw a line down the center through the circles and the dots. There are seven areas the line intersects a circle or dot. These are the seven chakras. Chakras 7 and 1, face up and down to interact with Cosmic Qi and Earth Qi respectively. The other chakras face forwards and backwards.

 

Everyone has the three fields and the seven chakras. Cultivation creates the elixirs and makes the chakras and fields bigger and healthier (bigger here means mostly how far they extend from the body).

Edited September 23, 2008 by 松永道

[sheng zhen]

Here is another thread on this topic: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...ost&p=49997

 

I would say they are completely different energy systems just like nerves, blood and lymphatic systems are different. They may be at the same area of the body, and thereby correspond to approximately the same function, but they are still different.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Thanks for the responses guys. sheng zhen, thanks for linking to the other page

 

So on a whole though, would you guys say that they are separate systems that talk about different things, or separate systems that talk about similar things?

 

sheng zhen, from your comments in the thread you linked, it sounds like, from your perspective, they are different systems for describing different things, although a lot of sources out there hint that they are really just different systems for describing similar things, which is why parallels can be made between the dan tiens and specific chakras.

[sheng zhen]

sheng zhen, from your comments in the thread you linked, it sounds like, from your perspective, they are different systems for describing different things, although a lot of sources out there hint that they are really just different systems for describing similar things, which is why parallels can be made between the dan tiens and specific chakras.

Yes, this is so confusing! People say meridians is the same as nadis, chakras the same as Dan Tiens, chi the same as prana....

 

I believe that when people say it is the same thing, they are mostly just refering to some quote and and something they read in a book, not a direct experience of the energies.

 

People can say that a meridian runs along the anatomical checkpionts they learn in acupuncture, but when you learn to see the meridians directly you see that there are a lot of individual differences. Not at all so schematic as the drawing say it is. The drawings are just approximations. Just like muscles and skeleton-positions in the body. It is all very individual.

 

So if people had the direct experience of these energysystems Im shure most would say chakras and Dan Tiens are different system. But because they are placed in the same area of the body their functions look like eachother on many areas. Just like you have the muscle that lifts the arm, the nerve that lifts the arm, the blood that helps the arm lift, all of these have the function "lifting the arm", but are still very different.

[Spectrum]

A very good reason to practice locations on yourself and others to get a FEEL for it. Everyone is slightly different, the landmarks are the same, the locations vary, but the feeling is the same when you seek and find.

 

People can say that a meridian runs along the anatomical checkpionts they learn in acupuncture, but when you learn to see the meridians directly you see that there are a lot of individual differences. Not at all so schematic as the drawing say it is. The drawings are just approximations. Just like muscles and skeleton-positions in the body. It is all very individual.

[doc benway]

The dan tian system and chakra system are constructs of human thought which developed in different paradigms that had some degree of intermingling over the millenia. They are not what they describe. They are simply ideas, concepts, and words that your mind uses to try and catalogue experience. The underlying reality is the same. The systems of describing that reality are a reflection of the culture in which they developed.

 

Trying to "understand" them and how they compare to one another may be an interesting exercise and pleasant distration but will provide little value. Not only is it like comparing apples and oranges but is more like comparing a drawing of an apple to a drawing of an orange and expect to reach a conclusion about how each tastes. I think it would be much more beneficial to spend the time meditating on either one...

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes, this is so confusing! People say meridians is the same as nadis, chakras the same as Dan Tiens, chi the same as prana....

 

I believe that when people say it is the same thing, they are mostly just refering to some quote and and something they read in a book, not a direct experience of the energies.

 

People can say that a meridian runs along the anatomical checkpionts they learn in acupuncture, but when you learn to see the meridians directly you see that there are a lot of individual differences. Not at all so schematic as the drawing say it is. The drawings are just approximations. Just like muscles and skeleton-positions in the body. It is all very individual.

 

So if people had the direct experience of these energysystems Im shure most would say chakras and Dan Tiens are different system. But because they are placed in the same area of the body their functions look like eachother on many areas. Just like you have the muscle that lifts the arm, the nerve that lifts the arm, the blood that helps the arm lift, all of these have the function "lifting the arm", but are still very different.

 

Interesting analogy. If you were to draw a big circle around "what makes you able to bend the arm", it would certainly encompass all of thoes muscles, nerves, blood, etc. It'd be in one area, but each one is different.

 

Something good to think about

 

The dan tian system and chakra system are constructs of human thought which developed in different paradigms that had some degree of intermingling over the millenia. They are not what they describe. They are simply ideas, concepts, and words that your mind uses to try and catalogue experience. The underlying reality is the same. The systems of describing that reality are a reflection of the culture in which they developed.

 

Trying to "understand" them and how they compare to one another may be an interesting exercise and pleasant distration but will provide little value. Not only is it like comparing apples and oranges but is more like comparing a drawing of an apple to a drawing of an orange and expect to reach a conclusion about how each tastes. I think it would be much more beneficial to spend the time meditating on either one...

 

So as long as we're distracting ourselves in our pleasant bit of discussion, can one take from that post that you think they are different? I mean if one pertains to the proverbial apples, while the other pertains to proverbial oranges, that would make them quite different indeed, as opposed to two different ways of describing, say, one single apple.

[Andrei]

According to Gurdjieff for each octave there are seven tones and three intervals (semitones) that had to be passed in order to evolve from a lower vibration to a higher vibration.

 

In my understanding the chackras are the energy vibration tones of the body while the three dantiens are the intervals that have to be filled up with something in order to be passed over.

 

do from previous octave

1. re

2. mi

3. first interval

4. fa

5. so

6. second interval

7. la

8. si

9. third interval to higher do

 

 

 

 

The intervals cannot be passed by default, only by intentional conscious work. By default the evolution blocks itself in the intervals which are also called blockages, and the natural evolution seeks another way around. This is why nature evolves in circles and cycles. The first interval is easier to pass, second is harder and the third is the hardest one. Each interval is by itself a mini octave. This is what Gurdjieff called the Law of Seven.

Edited September 23, 2008 by steam

[Spiritual_Aspirant]

So initially through my study of Tai Chi I learned about the dan tien, and that some consider there to be three dan tiens. From what I know, there's the lower dan tien, middle dan tien, and upper dan tien.

 

Now more recently I've come across learning about the chakras. Some sources have attempted to compare the chakras to the dan tiens but... well there's been some confusion.

 

The sixth chakra/third eye is almost always compared with the upper dan tien. This one seems to be most consistent.

 

The middle dan tien, I had always thought to be in the solar plexus area, however some places have the middle dan tien listed as in the heart region, thus corresponding with the heart chakra.

 

The lower dan tien I have seen compared to the third chakra, except the third chakra is most commonly referred to as the solar plexus chakra and that... isn't where the lower dan tien is. The third chakra also moves around in its listing, some sources list the third chakra as in the solar plexus, while others list it in the navel area, which may put it closer to the lower dan tien... Other places have listed the lower dan tien as corresponding with the second chakra, except the second chakra is also sometimes listed higher or lower so depending on where it's read it may be either more or less comparable... it's quite confusing

 

So, I guess the first question would be: do the dan tiens and the chakras correspond with each other at all, or are they pretty much their own separate thing? Is there some overlap, especially considering areas such as the third eye/upper dan tien, there is quite a lot of overlap in terms of location within the body, and things that happen when you learn to stimulate those areas.

 

Now if connections can be made between the two areas... what are the proper connections?

 

I can only be sure of one.

 

Lower Dan Tien = Navel Chakra

 

However, in the book "Spiritual Essence of Man", by Master Choa Kok Sui, he mentioned 3 alchemical centers:

 

Crown chakra = Spiritual alchemical center

Back Heart Chakra = Emotional alchemical center

Meng Mein Chakra = Etheric alchemical center

[daoian]

Dantian (丹田)

Dan (丹) means elixir, Tian (田) means field. The elixir resides at the field's center.

 

Chakra means spinning wheel.

 

Draw three circles on top of one another, connecting at their boarders. These are the three fields.

 

O - upper

O - middle

O - lower

 

Place a dot in the center of each circle. These are the three elixiers.

 

Draw a line down the center through the circles and the dots. There are seven areas the line intersects a circle or dot. These are the seven chakras. Chakras 7 and 1, face up and down to interact with Cosmic Qi and Earth Qi respectively. The other chakras face forwards and backwards.

 

Everyone has the three fields and the seven chakras. Cultivation creates the elixirs and makes the chakras and fields bigger and healthier (bigger here means mostly how far they extend from the body).

 

Beautiful explanation! worth repeating... there are indeed 7 chakras along the spine.. BUT the main ones are the SANG, JOONG, and HAH Dahn Juhn. there are two more dantiens or dahnjuhns one either side of the sang and hah. then there are the two dantiens between the sang and joong and joong and Hah. That makes 7 total... 7 energy centers. Then there are over 360 more minor ones on the body ... each are accupuncture points aka pressure points.

[doc benway]

 

So as long as we're distracting ourselves in our pleasant bit of discussion, can one take from that post that you think they are different? I mean if one pertains to the proverbial apples, while the other pertains to proverbial oranges, that would make them quite different indeed, as opposed to two different ways of describing, say, one single apple.

Yes - I think the paradigms are different, the concepts are different, and the words are different. The underlying reality that each are trying to describe is the same, however. I do not believe that there are two independent or exclusive or even overlapping energy systems, one of which has been described by the Indians, the other by the Chinese, there is only one. The two systems try to explain the same reality from different cultural perspectives and the fact that they are different highlights their weaknesses. On the other hand, the similarities show their strengths. The word does not make the thing, it just tries to represent it. The apple and orange relate to the systems of labeling, not reality. Sorry if it was a misleading analogy.

[sheng zhen]

Yes - I think the paradigms are different, the concepts are different, and the words are different. The underlying reality that each are trying to describe is the same, however. I do not believe that there are two independent or exclusive or even overlapping energy systems, one of which has been described by the Indians, the other by the Chinese, there is only one. The two systems try to explain the same reality from different cultural perspectives and the fact that they are different highlights their weaknesses. On the other hand, the similarities show their strengths. The word does not make the thing, it just tries to represent it. The apple and orange relate to the systems of labeling, not reality. Sorry if it was a misleading analogy.

But Xuesheng, dont you think there are several levels to this reality? Is it so strange that maby different cultures focus on different levels as an expression of their own level and karma?

 

That is why I am fairly confident that the chakras and dan tiens are different. They are working on different levels of reality. The chakras are more related to the consiousness spectrum, and the dan tiens are more related to the body. It reflects the general difference between buddhist and taoist practice, buddhists work with consciousness first and foremost, taoists works to bring the body along.

 

Also, based on my own work with the chakras these last 7 years, and the dan tiens this last year. The feeling of water running from lower Dan Tien to the heart has never occured in my hara chakra. A lot happens to my dan tien that does not happen to may hara. To me they seem like two very different systems working with two very different levels of reality.

 

But if we look at the reality as a whole, like looking at the body as a whole, then describing each system(nerves, blod, etc.) by it self in an attemt to explain the body would be very limiting. So viewing it from that perspective, they would just be part of the same ONE reality.

[daoian]

But Xuesheng, dont you think there are several levels to this reality? Is it so strange that maby different cultures focus on different levels as an expression of their own level and karma?

 

That is why I am fairly confident that the chakras and dan tiens are different. They are working on different levels of reality.

 

Sheng, the way to know for yourself is to do anthropological research. go ask authorities in both asian and indian cultures what each dantien/chakra does and what it governs.

 

2nd chakra: reproduction, sex, internal power

hah dantien: reproduction, sex, internal power

 

4th chakra: heart, emotion, time, parallel experiences

joong dantien: heart, emotion, time, parallel experiences

 

6th chakra: enlightenment, vision, clarity, psychic phenomena

sang dantien: enlightenment, vision, clarity, psychic phenomena

 

BUT there are yogis and taichi experts everywhere... you'll find one of each to compare notes.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I can only be sure of one.

 

Lower Dan Tien = Navel Chakra

 

However, in the book "Spiritual Essence of Man", by Master Choa Kok Sui, he mentioned 3 alchemical centers:

 

Crown chakra = Spiritual alchemical center

Back Heart Chakra = Emotional alchemical center

Meng Mein Chakra = Etheric alchemical center

 

 

Sheng, the way to know for yourself is to do anthropological research. go ask authorities in both asian and indian cultures what each dantien/chakra does and what it governs.

 

2nd chakra: reproduction, sex, internal power

hah dantien: reproduction, sex, internal power

 

4th chakra: heart, emotion, time, parallel experiences

joong dantien: heart, emotion, time, parallel experiences

 

6th chakra: enlightenment, vision, clarity, psychic phenomena

sang dantien: enlightenment, vision, clarity, psychic phenomena

 

BUT there are yogis and taichi experts everywhere... you'll find one of each to compare notes.

 

This is the kind of mix-up with sources and the stuff that I'm talking about (not trying to pick on you two or anything, but this is just an example of what can be seen anywhere ).

 

Some sources say, as Spiritual_Aspirant pointed out, that the lower dan tien parallels the navel chakra.

 

But then other sources, as pointed out by daoian, refer to the lower dan tien as paralleling the second chakra... which is not the navel chakra.

 

It continues on with the middle region, some saying the middle dan tien corresponds with the solar plexus chakra, but seeing as how some list the solar plexus chakra as being in the navel region, thus corresponding with the lower dan tien, that leaves those sources to then say that the middle dan tien corresponds to the heart chakra.

 

The sixth chakra and the upper dan tien are above all of this

 

This confusion of course brings up sheng zhen's point, which is that they are separate (which is backed up by some experience, which is sounding quite good), and then xuexheng's excellent point about there really being only one reality, and each system is really just an imperfect way for us to describe the totality of that reality (another excellent point... though as sheng zhen said there may be other levels of reality out there, not to mention what sheng as personally experienced)

 

See what I'm saying, this becomes quite the heap of info

Edited September 23, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[Spiritual_Aspirant]

This is the kind of mix-up with sources and the stuff that I'm talking about (not trying to pick on you two or anything, but this is just an example of what can be seen anywhere ).

 

Some sources say, as Spiritual_Aspirant pointed out, that the lower dan tien parallels the navel chakra.

 

But then other sources, as pointed out by daoian, refer to the lower dan tien as paralleling the second chakra... which is not the navel chakra.

 

It continues on with the middle region, some saying the middle dan tien corresponds with the solar plexus chakra, but seeing as how some list the solar plexus chakra as being in the navel region, thus corresponding with the lower dan tien, that leaves those sources to then say that the middle dan tien corresponds to the heart chakra.

 

The sixth chakra and the upper dan tien are above all of this

 

This confusion of course brings up sheng zhen's point, which is that they are separate (which is backed up by some experience, which is sounding quite good), and then xuexheng's excellent point about there really being only one reality, and each system is really just an imperfect way for us to describe the totality of that reality (another excellent point... though as sheng zhen said there may be other levels of reality out there)

 

See what I'm saying, this becomes quite the heap of info

 

You have a very good point.

[daoian]

Some sources say, as Spiritual_Aspirant pointed out, that the lower dan tien parallels the navel chakra.

 

But then other sources, as pointed out by daoian, refer to the lower dan tien as paralleling the second chakra... which is not the navel chakra.

 

It continues on with the middle region, some saying the middle dan tien corresponds with the solar plexus chakra, but seeing as how some list the solar plexus chakra as being in the navel region, thus corresponding with the lower dan tien, that leaves those sources to then say that the middle dan tien corresponds to the heart chakra.

 

I see the confusion. ok... to line up the chakras to the dan tiens... you have to understand the term. Because it was already pointed out that dan tien or dahn juhn simply means energy center... ANY vortex is a dahn tien. Cool thing about vortexes... is that they SPIN... AND they have a mouth and a tail. Look at a hurricane. Look at lightning... look at a radio wave... these all have a conical coiling like the kundalini snakes.

 

So.. from the back.. the mid back chakra IS the front middle chakra... BUT... the trouble is here... since there are SEVEN 7 chakas... which one is in the middle? #3 or #4?

 

This is the only place that causes real confusion... But as mentioned... if you really want to reconsile them... ask a yogi to energize your 4th chakra... then ask a qigong master to energize your mid dantien... if it feels the same... you have a match! =)

[sheng zhen]

I see the confusion. ok... to line up the chakras to the dan tiens... you have to understand the term. Because it was already pointed out that dan tien or dahn juhn simply means energy center... ANY vortex is a dahn tien. Cool thing about vortexes... is that they SPIN... AND they have a mouth and a tail. Look at a hurricane. Look at lightning... look at a radio wave... these all have a conical coiling like the kundalini snakes.

 

So.. from the back.. the mid back chakra IS the front middle chakra... BUT... the trouble is here... since there are SEVEN 7 chakas... which one is in the middle? #3 or #4?

 

This is the only place that causes real confusion... But as mentioned... if you really want to reconsile them... ask a yogi to energize your 4th chakra... then ask a qigong master to energize your mid dantien... if it feels the same... you have a match! =)

Oh we have a lot more trouble than that

 

I have never heard any daoist say that the Dan Tiens spin. Not have I heard that the say they are vortexes either.

 

AND, we have a lot more than 7 chakras. The 7 are just the main outline of the chakra system, not the whole system. So actually, I guess that if we go into detail with this we might find chakras that correspond directly to Dan Tiens. But the hara, heart and third eye as it is being used in the west, is not the same as the three dan tiens cultivated in qigong and taoism.

 

Yes we might get approximately the same experience, and masters might give you approximately the same descriptions of them, but still, there are differences so big that we cannot say they are just different words describing the same thing. They are different system just superimposed in the same physical area.

 

I learned Thai Massasge a few months ago, where we use nadis instead of meridians. Now the thing is that in Thai Massage you press really hard. I never understood why they did that. But after working a little bit with it, and doing it pretty lightly so I didnt hurt the patients, I met a muscle that needed some more pressure. So I pushed down really hard and at that moment I realized that this pressure was needed to activate the nadi. I could see how the whole body adjusted and I felt the flow of energy activate.

 

So you see Thai Massage and Meridian massage work with two different energysystem. One with the nadis, another with the meridians. But still, most textbooks and even proffesional Thai Massagists say meridians and nadis are the same. There is truckloads of confusion out there...

[Kundaolinyi]

Often times the heart chakra is visualized as the color green. In Taoist alchemy, the heart itself is associated with the element of 'fire', which is the color red.

 

To make matters even more confusing, take alchemic adjustments into considerations. What are the 'chakras' like pre-taois-alchemic-adjustment? And what are they like post-taoist-alchemic adjustment? Does reversing Kan and Li effect the chakras, for example?

 

 

Recently I came across a Kuji'in system that recognizes 9 chakras, one of which is located at the Jade pillow area, between the throat and third eye chakras.

 

I've also been exposed to chakra systems that describe chakras as centers of consiousness, rather than energy. (whatever that means)

 

 

I have to admit, there are times where my intuition is so strong that I feel like I'm being directly fed pure truth from God or Aliens ..or something. Then there are other times when I think all this stuff is a bunch of bullshit and I should just stick to physical anatomical qigong/neigong. At any rate, if experiencing universal love and compassion is really the final chakra stage, then I've been there done that many times over. You'd think there would be more to it than that. Especially considering how easy it is to experience such a thing with Chia's Fusion practices.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Kundaolinyi

[sheng zhen]

But when we recognize it as different systems alltogether, the confusion ends

[daoian]

[Sloppy Zhang]

[Spotless]

The lower dan tien is not the same as the 2nd chakra which is located slightly higher and more clearly centered nearer to the surface of the skin. When you have very clearly opened this chakra it is very pronounced at the skin surface and will be 2-3 inches in diameter (more or less). The dan tien has a much different "texture" - and it is not as confusing.