The "S" word

[Zhan Zhuang]

I respectfully defer to your own superior knowledge of yourself and what you believe.

I also respectfully disagree that Buddhism (in any variant) doesn't require devotional surrender.

 

 

1. Not what I believe, but what I know from looking into the nature of mind.

2. Theravada Buddhism is more anti guru. No external means are needed, only insight (vipassana).

However there are forms of devotional Buddhism such as pure land, chan , tibetan

 

zz

[rain]

You surrender to God, your Higher Self or whatever higher power you choose. Yes, this does require trust and faith in the Divine, but that's the point. You reach a point in life where you admit that your brain only knows so much and your local ego can only get you so far. You realize that to pass those limits, you must then pass the limits of your own local point of consciousness/ego and accept help from a power far greater than yourself. This is the essence of prayer. Surrender thus demonstrates faith and humility, both attributes that please the gods...

 

And yes, I do find surrender (especially when expressed with sincere pleading) a key to ecstatic experiences.

 

agree

[Apech]

I would suggest that devotion in say, Tibetan Buddhism, in other words guru-yoga is more a method than an absolute - or in other words a skillful means of attaining enlightenment. You take the view that your teacher is a buddha so that you may get the benefits of a buddha rather than of a being with an ordinary mind. However in terms of ultimate truth there is no difference between pupil and teacher.

 

Devotion in theistic religions is different because of the belief in an external existent deity which one has to surrender to.

 

Both have their dangers and many teachers have abused the relationship and their students (literally) by manipulating people.

 

Surrender then ultimately must be about surrendering to the process of one's own enlightenment. That is opening to either the lessons in our experience or to the immediate energy of the situation. Surely.

[wudangquan]

1. Not what I believe, but what I know from looking into the nature of mind.

2. Theravada Buddhism is more anti guru. No external means are needed, only insight (vipassana).

However there are forms of devotional Buddhism such as pure land, chan , tibetan

 

zz

 

Hi ZZ,

 

Hopefully we will both succeed in our respective cultivation.

 

I want to ask you a question about #2, but hope you won't misinterpret it as being antagonistic. . . Don't mean to be at all.

 

I lived in Thailand for 4 years, and my impression of Therevada is that it's very, very guru oriented. Probably moreso than Vajrayana or the East Asian variants. . .

 

Is that a phenomenon that is isolated to Thailand, or is it a misunderstanding of lay people, or . . . ?

 

I understand that some of the somdej worship, carrying roasted fetuses around in your purse, spirit houses, etc. ad nauseum are more related to animism than Buddhism, but I always saw, in a practical sense that guru "worship" was a big part of Therevada, and moreso than other traditions where the devotional surrender might be to the B/D/S.

[Zhan Zhuang]

From what I've heard from people who've studied Buddhism in Thailand, those sort of practices are a part of ancient thai culture before Buddhism arrived from India. More like tribal/shamanistic such as the use of amulets for protection etc.

I wouldn't say they are a part of Buddhism, although the thai lay practictioners often fuse these ancient beliefs with Buddhism.

I am a scholar of the thai forest tradition and this is definitely not part of my practice nor any of the monks or lay people who I know.

 

zz

[wudangquan]

No to continue to derail this anymore, but being a tangent ninja . . .

 

When I lived in Thailand Buddhism was not really my interest (although I hold it in the up most esteem), so other than rucking up to a few places (the beach more often than any temples during those years, but I did go to enough . . .), and general knowledge I don't claim to know a whole lot about it.

 

What I do know a bit about though are the Lusi, or the Thai yogi's. They are jungle yogis and some of them are pretty powerful. Like - put a banana leaf over your head and disappear powerful.

 

When I was in the jungle (of Thailand not booger creek alabama) one of these guys had me eat some crystals off the inside wall of his cave. That's not me saying I have been trained by Thai jungle yogis or something because I haven't. I just ate some cave scrapin's and got something similar to a maha ut.

 

I have always been curious - I know (of, not much about) the forest tradition, and have run into some of those guys on the roads up in Isarn before, too . . . Do you know if there's any overlap between the forest tradition and the Lusi?

 

It's something I would like to know more about, for the sake of pointless knowledge so if you ever happen to ask around at your temple or whichever way you do it I would be interested in hearing what you find out or know via PM.

 

To get back to Taoism, but not really the topic of this thread . . .

 

There have also been multiple Taoist diasporas into South Asia (I guess John Chang is somehow the most famous example of that).

 

For about the last zillion years different ethnicities from Tibet, Yunnan, Guanxi, etc. have been fleeing Hanzu invasions down into Myanmar, Thailand, and Cambodia.

 

There are a good number of Taoist hillltribes in those areas, as well who are not uncontacted peoples, but that don't have a whole lot of contact with many people. Especially in Myanmar.

 

The Thai border areas are also full of ex KMT people who regressed to tribalism and what not after the war.

 

It's actually an interesting area for Taoist study I think. If I had an expendable income I would just go hang out with some hill tribes for a few years. From the couple of places that I've actually seen them (Thailand/Myanmar) it definitely seems to border more on the shamanism/folk side of things than sterile xinxing cultivation/meditation, etc.

 

I would love to see someone come out of those groups and teach.

 

P.S. (edit) sorry for longwindedness. My native English just craves expression sometimes so I get on the internet and ramble like this . . . I should be more tranquil, but sometimes I just want to think things out in a language I understand clearly.

Edited September 24, 2008 by wudangquan

[ddilulo_06]

In the end, abiding in the state of surrender is what I think we all want... but I could be projecting.

Edited October 3, 2008 by ddilulo_06