Control and manipulation

[metzu]

I have only been here a short while and it appears from the numerous posts I have read everyone is attempting to follow teachings of others, be it from books or from teachers, sages, masters, it sounds strange coming from those on the wayofthedao. Discussions seem to be about what some third party told us is the way it is supposed to or can be, words seem extremly important,defining magical experiences some have had when experiencing some master or teacher,or groups experience ,again still third hand information.

It could be my own ignorance that brings me to this conclusion, even so, let me further explain. I have gone no further than Lao, Chuang, Alan Watts Watercourse way, in the 20 years since I found the Taoist ideas illuminating. Also for longer I practiced the I Ching. Over and over countless times I scoured these books for more ,I read and practiced these ideas, until it came to the time(oh yes I visited another forum when it was in its prime on the computer"Daoist Discussion Forum" for nearly 5 years) though they were all wonderful ideas, my longing was to get to that time when like the ancients, I wouldn't need to save or fix any person, place, or thing, and could trust nature to take the course that was natural for all nature to take.

Does nature meditate or contemplate its next action,does it need to practice being itself? Does it attempt to control anything? Then why, we who are no less or more nature then anything else in this comprehendable universe, think that mind control or practice can get us to the place we think we want to get to. So I see the Dao as the last step before reaching enlightenment, I see enlightenment as walking away from all discussion and others illumination, the realization that all my questions are within me and all the answers are there as well,at this point I see myself walking away from the Tao as another strawdog in this journey to the inner self that will be enlightened, and naturally I will be minding my own business, doing only what is infront of me to do with family and friends I know and meet ,as I stop looking for trouble I will have reached non action and non being. I believe I would be at that same point they say Lao was at when leaving, doing what the gatekeeper asked of him,leaving his own opinions in what has been passed down to us. Only at that point tempted by fame and fortune, I would believe I could just smile and walk away.

I honestly believe that behind every book we have been taught as the wisdom of the ages some governmant has edited all information to control and manipulate the people, and as good as these ideas sound to ears who have never heard them, the bottom line will always remain. The answers we seek can not be found outside of our own being. It will always remain an inside job ,anything else is simply entertainment until we are able to walk away from it all.

[Zhan Zhuang]

Spot on ! Great post

 

'Be ye lamps unto yourselves' Buddha

 

 

zz

[Desert Eagle]

But these exercises do help guide us to the way where it has been covered and unused. These 3rd party methods were developed by people who wanted the same thing but wanted it faster, more effective, and redistributable. The natural way is still a way and you don't need to recreate the wheel and the circumstances of the availability of good nature have changed because of pollution and modern problems. I agree that it is likely that most sources have been corrupted but that's the challenge to find a good source.

[metzu]

But these exercises do help guide us to the way where it has been covered and unused. These 3rd party methods were developed by people who wanted the same thing but wanted it faster, more effective, and redistributable. The natural way is still a way and you don't need to recreate the wheel and the circumstances of the availability of good nature have changed because of pollution and modern problems. I agree that it is likely that most sources have been corrupted but that's the challenge to find a good source.

I honestly believe faster doesn't get it,more effective won't get it,and redistribution is actually 3rd party politics.

There is no good or bad nature, nature is as it does.

As for the challange of deciphering the information that is surely corrupted in some way, I believe all the information we have accumulated over the years of wandering looking for the truth, the honesty ,kindness,joy,or whatever we have been doing, has always been within ourselves, the only problem we have is getting an appointment with that beautiful person within each of us(it is not a seperate individual within,it is the non being within wanting to manifest itself), and trusting that person within longing and trying so hard to come out, but can't because we are so entertained by someone elses bull s--- ( pardon the expression, I can see it at this point in no other way)we just can't stop allowing new entertainment to carry us away from that self within we have been chasing down for as long as we became aware within that things just ain't the way we feel they should be.

By the way I love your handle Desert Eagle..........have you ever listened to Dave Lanz and Paul Speer They had a cd out in 85' called Desert vison...my favorite song on it was Eagles Path

 

You are right Desert Eagle I did have to go thru all those place ,people and things to get to here and now, and everyone else must go thru whatever it is they are going thru to get to their own here and now.

As you can see I to am new here. Apologize should i have hurt you, in my own ignorance, and maybe attempting to be impressive. It has been a long time since I have had the freedom to express all that has happened within in the years of my seperation.

Edited September 25, 2008 by metzu

[thelerner]

There's a time to learn, listen and discuss. Very important.

 

Just as important is sabatical. No learning, no distractions or discussions. Live in the belly and let your feet point the way.

 

 

Yet I also think until your feet are firmly set on the path of tao, discipline is needed.

 

 

Michael

[metzu]

There's a time to learn, listen and discuss. Very important.

 

Just as important is sabatical. No learning, no distractions or discussions. Live in the belly and let your feet point the way.

Yet I also think until your feet are firmly set on the path of tao, discipline is needed.

Michael

All very true Michael,after delayed gratification, comes big heavy laughing ,soaring with the eagle, rebirth as the phoenix, freedom and abandonment, I don't see The Tao as a destination,simply another strawdog along the way , important only because it freed me to think outside the roll call.......and realize that I have been through so many transformations within ,in this lifetime and every dead end I reached always returned me to me, to find the truth within my own self.......so once again I repeat, the only trustworthy teacher is Nature itself.

 

And all questions are internally within our own self and within our own selves are also our individual answers,no matter how hard we look and train and practice all those ideas passed on by another ,it all just takes us away from finding our own self. outside ourselves for what we are seeking we can't find it what we percieve as outside is all illusional, every individual lives in the universe they have created, how many billions of universes are there in our world= with every atom of our being we have created in the image and likeness of ourselves

The necessty to clean myself up with this edit, you are right Michael, I needed to go thru all I went thru to get to today as everyone else must do the same, we all arrive at the now from differing points of vision, though sometimes when we are discussing how we got to now they all sound the same, our individual experiences in life are different, not so much in the things we have done, but how we think and feel about the things we have felt and done.

Edited September 25, 2008 by metzu

[doc benway]

Beautiful Metzu!

_/\_

 

One of my favorite quotes that points to this conclusion is "The truth is a pathless land" - J Krishnamurti (I recognize the irony of posting a quotation to support your claim... )

 

I agree with you that no one can ever show you or teach you the truth, they can point you in a direction which may (or may not) result in you blundering into it. In the end, the closest you will ever come to communion with the universe is within yourself for you are that. Buddha found the light and was not a Buddhist. Jesus found the light and was not a Christian. Laozi and Zhuangzi were probably not practicing Daoists. Mohammed was not a Muslim. That's assuming of course they were actually historical figures.

 

Here is something I ponder sometimes. Think about whether you would have been likely to reach this truth without treading the path you have. The irony is, there does appear to be a relationship between spending time on this spiritual path and coming to that realization. Reading the works, doing the meditation, chatting in chat rooms, following the gurus, whatever. At some point, the light bulb goes on, your perspective shifts ever so slightly, and there it is... Then you realize you never needed the gurus or the path or any of that but how do we know if we would have gotten to that point without them? It's a beautiful irony.

 

Even though there is no need for you to do so, I hope you will continue to post on this forum. I think you have a lot to offer.

[Desert Eagle]

By the way I love your handle Desert Eagle..........have you ever listened to Dave Lanz and Paul Speer They had a cd out in 85' called Desert vison...my favorite song on it was Eagles Path

 

for the record my handle is referring to the bird of prey not any military weapon. what style is that music?

[宁]

here's a riddle: Control and Manipulation is cultivation itself

[三江源]

here's a riddle: Control and Manipulation is cultivation itself

 

 

[metzu]

Beautiful Metzu!

_/\_

 

One of my favorite quotes that points to this conclusion is "The truth is a pathless land" - J Krishnamurti (I recognize the irony of posting a quotation to support your claim... )

 

I agree with you that no one can ever show you or teach you the truth, they can point you in a direction which may (or may not) result in you blundering into it. In the end, the closest you will ever come to communion with the universe is within yourself for you are that. Buddha found the light and was not a Buddhist. Jesus found the light and was not a Christian. Laozi and Zhuangzi were probably not practicing Daoists. Mohammed was not a Muslim. That's assuming of course they were actually historical figures.

 

Here is something I ponder sometimes. Think about whether you would have been likely to reach this truth without treading the path you have. The irony is, there does appear to be a relationship between spending time on this spiritual path and coming to that realization. Reading the works, doing the meditation, chatting in chat rooms, following the gurus, whatever. At some point, the light bulb goes on, your perspective shifts ever so slightly, and there it is... Then you realize you never needed the gurus or the path or any of that but how do we know if we would have gotten to that point without them? It's a beautiful irony.

 

Even though there is no need for you to do so, I hope you will continue to post on this forum. I think you have a lot to offer.

Xuesheng,

Actually this is true, I needed to experience everything I went through in order to arrive at this now experience, and at this juncture of the journey, I have no regrets ,shame, nor sorrows for all I needed to experience over and over sometimes, I see the necessity for this individual wandering,and also realize everyone else needs to follow their own experience on their own individual path where ever it carries them,in returning to innocence.

So why does Joe say and write these things,simply because in tmy head and unexpressed I can not go any further,it isn't for those I am responding to, or the post I make,it is simply to be reminded of my own limited ignorance along the way to enlightenment. When I hear myself back after making myself vulnerable to exposure, it carries me deeper within to check myself out internally with what fits there and what is just entertainment, pretence or just plain old bullshit of being something I truly am not. So Xuesheng, you returned me the favor, of turning myself around to see where I have come from and just how it was in order to get here. Sometimes I lose touch with all that it has taken to arrive at today, mainly because my focus for the most part isn't in yesterday or tomorrow, only here and now matters.

I have never had a master or a teacher of human origin, unless we count jesus, buddha, lao,chuang, as human beings, even so ,I have only met them in words from books..............having watched the media and how directors edit everybodies works for movies and publication, could it be any different for what we all thought were books of wisdom passed down thru the ages of antiquity, to fill us with illunination and enlightenment..............maybe in the end all winds up bullshit and just entertainment as we mozy around the mulberry bush............but the adventure , the high drama..........I have found nowhere else ,so for now.....this is all very exciting, it has been quite awhile since I have been to a forum such as this where I am free to express the thoughts and ideas that come and go, I have been on let's call it a sabbatical, for a few years,accumulating more pain ,in order to turn it over and see the flip side, and necessity of stepping away from everything sometimes for awhile, so I can have a fresh view with new eyes and ears turning the outside ....inside.

Yes , it is beautiful to have arrived here at this time after having gone back thru lao, chuang,and the watercourse way, and have let them all go again...........so that I can express myself freely so I can see where I am ,what to keep , what to let go of. So yes thank you I will be here for awhile, who knows how long it will take before I no longer need the entertainment from outside, or maybe this will be as far as my journey takes me, even so is wonderful finding you guys and being able to spend time with you all.

I needed a destination beyond heaven and hell that had been given to me in my childhood, after much heroin and LSD some 12 years in prison along the way sparodically, I worked myself out of the hole that had been dug for me, returning to old places of information over and over again until I saw a way up and out of the "hole "of my own creation. Finding the dao has taken me beyond heaven and earth to another imagined place of origin the Tao Way all strawdogs of my imaginings. Placed me right smack in the middle of responsibility of choice I have made all of my adult life. Realizing it all is about the choice I make and need to, feel, not think, I am worthy of this self and magnificent creation that surrounds us all, making us One complete Universe, with what appears to be billions of individual universes within it(be those universes people ,places,or things) So thank you Steve as you have allowed me to open myself up a little bit more at 5 AM, to take another look and to see a few other things I had not realized yet.

Joe

 

for the record my handle is referring to the bird of prey not any military weapon. what style is that music?

Yes, a bird of prey. The music was new age, instrumental. Very Daoist in its instrmentation, very nature oriented............they did another around the same time "Natural States" you can check them out on You Tube

go to Dave Lanz and paul Speers and type in the name of the cd's if you care to. Desert Vision and Natural States

 

here's a riddle: Control and Manipulation is cultivation itself

of course cultivation is how it maintains itself

or even the attempted civilization of nature itself

[Unconditioned]

Metzu,

 

Thank you for the refreshing posts. I agree that it is easy to get distracted by 'shiny objects' (aka the entertainment) but for some they may find that it is empty, that something is missing. Everyone has their own progression. It's also very inspiring to hear about picking yourself back up from your 'old life'.

 

Hope to hear from you more on this forum, welcome!

 

Your remarks about the natural way reminds me of a story that I can't recall the source right now (paraphrasing)...

 

An elderly master was working in the hot sun when a student asked him, "Why do you work in this hot sun?". He replied "Because it is there". The student then asked him, "Why don't you go sit in the shade?". He replied, "Because I am here".

 

-Nate

[metzu]

Metzu,

 

Thank you for the refreshing posts. I agree that it is easy to get distracted by 'shiny objects' (aka the entertainment) but for some they may find that it is empty, that something is missing. Everyone has their own progression. It's also very inspiring to hear about picking yourself back up from your 'old life'.

 

Hope to hear from you more on this forum, welcome!

 

Your remarks about the natural way reminds me of a story that I can't recall the source right now (paraphrasing)...

 

An elderly master was working in the hot sun when a student asked him, "Why do you work in this hot sun?". He replied "Because it is there". The student then asked him, "Why don't you go sit in the shade?". He replied, "Because I am here".

 

-Nate

Unconditioned, thank you for the story;

For some reason it reminded me of another Taoist story, I picked up from Alan Watts's "The Watercourse Way"

A farmer whose horse ran away, was sitting back that evening having a smoke, with his tea, and all his neighbors gathered to commiserate with him,since this was such bad luck. He said, "May be". The next day the horse returned but brought with it six wild horses, and the neighbors came back exclaiming at his good fortune. He said " May be ." And then the following day his son tried to saddle one of the wild horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. Again the neighbors came to offer their sympathy for the misfortune. He said.............. " May be "..............The day after that, conscription officers came to the village to seize men for the army, but because his leg was broken, the farmer's son was rejected. When the neighbors came in to say how fortunate everything had turned out, he said "May be."

Joe