lost and confused in the land of RMAX

[qirin]

this is my first post here, and I wanted to tell a little about my story and what I am after, and hopefully ignite a discussion about some of the things that matter to me.

 

for a long time I have been looking for, or following the thread of something, and that ultimately lead to me being here at this moment asking these questions. I decided to ask them here because there are so many people on this board with so much knowledge about different traditions and such a wealth of real life experience. I apologize if this seems presumptuous for a first time poster, but this stuff has really been nagging at me and I need to put it out there.

 

a long time ago I was a very unhappy and in a lot of pain, and so I started to look for something outside myself that could help me with that pain. of course the first thing I turned to was drugs, and when that didn't work out very well I began looking into meditation and then yoga.

 

through the practice of yoga, I realized how estranged I had become from my own body, and I realized that overcoming some of the emotional pain I experienced required me to get back into my body and deal with the issues I had there. not only that, but I came into contact with something in myself, a quality of "aliveness" that seemed to flow within me and guide my movements and create a feeling of freedom and expansiveness.

 

however, I quickly became dissatisfied with yoga. I found it very unidirectional, very yang, too limited in its use of the body and not fully embracing the potential of this life force I could feel within myself. consequently, I began to study qigong and chinese medicine and later feldenkrais and somatics. each of these things seemed to hold one more piece of the puzzle, but none of them was truly the art that I was looking for. I also realized that I needed to increase the basic physical capacities of my body. as I engaged in activities I once considered the purview of "jocks," my body began to flourish. so I ran, swam, lifted weights, and my strength and vitality grew.

 

yet I remained unsatisfied. in my mind I pictured an art that combined the playfulness of feldenkrais with the fluidity of taiji and the ground engagement and stretching of yoga. one that also utilized some often neglected approaches to relaxation, such as controlled tension, shouting, and vibration. and I imagined a system of strength training that did not focus on moving muscles through certain ranges, but strengthened the body in the ways it was meant to be used, using tools like hammers or clubs. I could invent all of this myself, but it would be a slow process, and I do not consider myself a very advanced student of any of these things.

 

and then one day I found it. poking around on youtube, I saw a video of this scott sonnon guy doing exactly what I had envisioned. he called it "prasara yoga." and not only that, he used weighted clubs for strength training. it was bizarre, as if something in my own mind had stepped out into reality.

 

the honeymoon, however, was short lived. as I looked into it, I grew more and more uneasy with this guy and, to a lesser extent, with his system. the material, I learned, was derived from work done by the russian special forces. sonnon himself seems to have been involved in combat from an early age. his writing is bombastic and often ill-considered. he proclaims his system to be superior to things (feldenkrais, ashtanga yoga) that are in their own right very advanced and legitimate forms of self-development.

 

he claims that his system is complete and that it provides a foundation for longevity unparalleled in the past. yet the system itself seems to me to have serious flaws in it. flaws that reflect sonnon's disordered personality. while it certainly is a more internal system than most western arts, it seems to lack a deep appreciation for the spiritual and energetic sides of experience. sonnon claims prasara is yoga, but that statement is preposterous since he only deals with two of the eight limbs. more recently I have seen videos of russian practitioners of the system sonnon's material is derived from, and they demonstrate a fluidity and ease of movement that sonnon seems to have stiffened and tightened.

 

now please understand me. everyone has a character structure, everyone has their quirks and those are always commensurate with the strengths one brings to the table. but sonnon seems to have arrogantly insisted on isolating himself by declaring his superiority over the people who could really enrich his system, by constantly pursuing patents and trying to set himself up in an ivory tower. his own ego, I think, is the downfall of what could otherwise be one of the most valuable resources out there right now. a system that, in my eyes, could provide the missing link between wellness, martial arts and spiritual development.

 

most important to me, however, is the fact that sonnon has been accused of sock puppeting, and as far as I know has never responded to these allegations. again, don't get me wrong. while "guerilla marketing" is certainly deceptive, I don't think it's necessarily wrong. but if sonnon really is tichok or any of these other alleged puppets... it's not that he would lie, but the specifics of what he said as these puppets, the stupid arguments he made, the badly faked "accents," that indicate that he has taken leave of his senses.

 

and with his newest product, "the bible of joint mobility," his writing (or is it nikolay travkin's?) grows more bombastic and tabloid and comes to resemble more and more those e-book blurbs you see all over the internet, trying to sell you anything from penis enlargement textbooks to manifestation techniques to, in this case, the secrets of siberian shamans.

 

so here are my questions.

 

what do you people think of these criticisms of sonnon? does the value of work outweigh this deranged behavior?

 

do you know of any way to get at the R.O.S.S. material without going through sonnon? does sonnon have something to offer that other can't?

 

are you interested in a project that involves extracting the valuable parts of sonnon's work and placing them more firmly in an open context which includes and respects yoga, taiji, feldenkrais, and other arts?

 

do you believe there is a different teacher out there who has a better understanding of human biomechanics (in all planes of movement), the "state of flow," and the movement of qi in the human body, who you would recommend instead?

 

am I just hypercritical? in other words, stfu grasshopper?

 

of course any other comments are welcome, too.

Edited September 26, 2008 by qirin

[Aetherous]

his own ego, I think, is the downfall of what could otherwise be one of the most valuable resources out there right now.

 

I used to be involved in Rmax stuff a bit...and I found this to be true. Sonnon has some issues he needs to work out...but don't we all?

 

His material is great. Take what you can from it, and then improve upon it yourself. It certainly isn't the pinnacle.

[Trunk]

I used to be involved in Rmax stuff ... Sonnon has some issues he needs to work out ... His material is great. Take what you can from it, ..

Rmax material was big here on the board some years ago (search "Sonnon"). Scotty's comments are typical (though a lot more polite) of many who'd trained with his methods and hung out at S's board. I hadn't trained Rmax stuff nearly as much as some on this board, but it seems to me that if you just take intuflow and clubbells and stay away from the forum altogether, it'd be a good get-&-go. That material taps into the continuum of connective tissue effectively and accessably.

 

Trunk

[Yoda]

I take a love-the-sin-hate-the-sinner approach on this one.

 

Nice product. I'm not sure if there are better systems out there or not. I only wish that I could stick to doing intuflow on a regular basis. If the dork factor is too high, you might try Chia's morning meditation dvd... it's way cool too. I'd be happy to loan it out if you are in the USA assuming I can find it.

[jaloo]

Have you worked any of the rmax material through a full training cycle? In other words, have your at least worked Intu-Flow to the point where the basic set is smooth and flowing? Have you run Flow-Fit to the point that you have reached competency and some flow? If not then you are judging technique based on personality packaging.

 

Why give a flying hoot about Sonnon if his material works for you? If you feel a connection to it and after working it you find it useful, then work the system to meet your needs. Who cares about Sonnon at that point?

 

Or throw it all out because Sonnon has flaws. Of course you could be waiting a long time to find the "perfect" system presented by the perfect teacher.

[mjjbecker]

Ellis Amdur in his excellent book, 'Duelling With O'sensei', wrote about some advice given to him by the famous internal arts master Hung I Hsiang, (one of the masters written about by R.W. Smith and featured on the BBC's 'Way of the Warrior TV show). Hung was famous on Taiwan for turning out champion full contact tournament fighters, people who could effectively apply the internal arts against other martial artists.

 

Sensing that Mr Amdur was only concerned with fighting and improving his ability in this area, Hung cautioned Mr Amdur that he should be careful of who he studied under. Regardless of intentions, one would find oneself taking on the characteristics of ones teacher, regardless of intent.

 

I read Mr Amdur's book at a time when I was having to make a similar decision regarding studying with a teacher. I admired the teachers abilities, he was witty, educated and good company. However, there were certain aspects of his behaviour I could not reconcile with my own moral compass. In the end I followed Hung's excellent advice and went elsewhere. It has turned out very much for the best in the long run.

 

My own feelings are that you really do have to feel comfortable about your teachers personality and behaviour. If you have doubts then it will effect your ability to follow that person and their method. There is no getting around this. Be it the person, the method, or both you have issues with, you should address them. If you cannot then I suggest you would be best off moving on to something else.

 

Don't discount your 'gut feeling'. If something doesn't feel right for you then it probably isn't.

 

The world of Russian martial arts certainly isn't limited to Scott Sonnon, so go and have a look at what else is out there. You seem to be very interested in the biomechanics side of what he is doing. There seems to be a strong emphasis on this side of study by the Kadochnikov school. See if you can find some people representing him near you.

 

Not Matt Powell though, (I know he's moved on from Kadochnikov and set up his own school). I had a long running bad experience with him after trying to purchase his Ksys manual. It never turned up and neither did the promised refund. After nearly a year of chasing I got sent an ebook and promises of his new paper manual and a refund for all my trouble. Promises, promises...

 

Good luck with your search and keep at it until you find what you are looking for.

[Procurator]

 

 

and with his newest product, "the bible of joint mobility," his writing (or is it nikolay travkin's?) grows more bombastic and tabloid and comes to resemble more and more those e-book blurbs you see all over the internet, trying to sell you anything from penis enlargement textbooks to manifestation techniques to, in this case, the secrets of siberian shamans.

 

so here are my questions.

 

what do you people think of these criticisms of sonnon? does the value of work outweigh this deranged behavior?

 

do you know of any way to get at the R.O.S.S. material without going through sonnon?

russian martial arts are pure unadulterated fraud, from a to z. you are be better off working on penis enlargement than buying anything from those con men.

[mjjbecker]

russian martial arts are pure unadulterated fraud, from a to z. you are be better off working on penis enlargement than buying anything from those con men.

 

How so? Please elaborate. Are you questioning the history or the actual methods?

 

Having met Mikhail Ryabko and some of his people in the flesh, I have no doubts to their effectiveness as fighters. The Russians could definitely do the business. Their ability to hit very hard from close range is real-I've felt it myself.

 

The two people with me at the Systema seminar had over 20 years of jujutsu experience and they didn't doubt its effectiveness either.

[Trunk]

My own feelings are that you really do have to feel comfortable about your teachers personality and behaviour. If you have doubts then it will ...

Whole post, well spoken, has the rich texture of experience behind it.

Wide topic.

 

A lot lot simpler if your sole relationship w/ teacher is via a couple o' dvd's. * whew! *

Edited September 27, 2008 by Trunk

[Procurator]

How so? Please elaborate. Are you questioning the history or the actual methods?

........Their ability to hit very hard from close range is real-I've felt it myself.

 

i dont question. i know. its a fraud in both respects. Being hit hard depends on how soft you are and how much you enjoy being had.

 

So you are saying that those two have practiced for real for 20 years and still felt the need to pay for a seminar on another system? Ok.

[qirin]

the board seems to have strung all my replies together so I hope this isn't too confusing.

 

I only wish that I could stick to doing intuflow on a regular basis.

 

I hope it's not presumptuous of me to offer advice, but maybe you would benefit from a change of attitude towards the work. the way sonnon presents intu-flow, the "intuitive" part is more implied than stated. personally, I alternate between doing the exercises the way sonnon presents them and improvising my own movements.

 

some days I pop the video on and follow it to the letter. I think this is important, because you really want to work on recovering the exact ranges of motion. other days, I start with the beginner material and then mix in some intermediate stuff or some stuff from warrior wellness that I like but that didn't make the intu-flow cut. or even some of the stuff from pavel tsatsouline's fast and loose. and I use these as a springboard, and follow the indications of my body and the flow of qi and start to experiment with new movements.

 

some days I only have five or ten minutes, and so I do the exercises that it feels like my body wants me to do, or just focus on my problem areas (neck, shoulders, hips).

 

in other words, I kind of mix intu-flow with spontaneous qigong.

 

one of the key points in feldenkrais is varying the range of motion and speed while doing exercises. sonnon never to my knowledge discusses this, and I think it's one of the things that proves that he doesn't have the jump on feldenkrais, despite what he said in the body-flow book. on intu-flow, sonnon says to keep the reps to a minimum in order to avoid a training effect, but varying the range of motion will also avoid a training affect and has an extremely beneficial effect on your proprioception.

 

in other words, there's plenty of reason to believe that a freeform and improvisational approach is actually beneficial. you need to be systematic, but it could be the fact that you don't find yourself getting up and wanting to do it might be an indication that the program isn't clicking with your body and you should try a more improvisational approach.

 

Have you worked any of the rmax material through a full training cycle? In other words, have your at least worked Intu-Flow to the point where the basic set is smooth and flowing?

 

yes I have.

 

Why give a flying hoot about Sonnon if his material works for you? If you feel a connection to it and after working it you find it useful, then work the system to meet your needs. Who cares about Sonnon at that point?

 

because there is often a lot more to be learned from a teacher in person, and through his or her disciples, than through videos, and with all of this negativity around him I am not sure I want to bring any more of his energy into my life.

 

because if sonnon is just pilfering retuinskih's material without adding anything of merit, then it's retuinskih's material I want.

 

because I am disappointed, because prasara is so much like what I had been imagining and yet it is filled with flaws that reflect sonnon's flaws.

 

because a teacher sometimes transfers his flaws to his students, just as alexander lowen (a student of wilhelm reich) was tainted by a history of cynicism and emotional detachment that links them back to freud.

 

because I thought maybe sonnon was a decent guy and I feel let down. because I thought maybe I had found one person worth looking up to.

 

i dont question. i know. its a fraud in both respects. Being hit hard depends on how soft you are and how much you enjoy being had.

 

you may very well be right, but what interests me is not the striking and martial arts aspect of it but the ability to move the body in a flowing and effortless way. from videos I can see that sonnon, kadochnikov and the people at the systema-spetsnaz website (http://www.livevideo.com/video/A0E013B2F8644D788D5B066EAF9C3468/spetsnaz-dvd-internal-wave-e.aspx) can do that. you can't fake flow, you either have it or you don't.

 

I don't care about these people specifically, I am interested in the work that they are doing, but I am trying to trace all of the threads. how much of this comes from break dancing? how much comes from cossack dancing? how much of it is retuinskih's? is there really a 'slavic natural health system' and if so what else does it teach? how can we tie all of this together with feldenkrais and qigong and reichian growth work to create a system that truly helps people overcome their body armoring and fear-reactivity?

 

my own motivation is a perception of my need for this sort of thing, but I think it's something that could benefit a lot of people. because of my own inexperience and personal flaws, I don't feel qualified to tread the road alone, to invent my own techniques. I don't won't to make the mistakes that sonnon seems to have made. so I am trying to find trustworthy teachers, and hopefully one day work collaboratively to create a dynamic and harmonious synthesis. but this is starting to sound a little grandiose and I'm not really that kind of guy.

 

michael becker, thank you for your words of encouragement

Edited September 27, 2008 by qirin

[Procurator]

? is there really a 'slavic natural health system' and if so what else does it teach?

yes, yes there is and it is amazing. well it teaches many wonderfull things but the main tenet is "that there is one born every minute".

 

thanks for the laugh.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Procurator

[qirin]

thanks for the laugh.

 

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be rude, but the strength of your argument is weakened by the fact that I have never given any of these people a single dime. I may be a fool, but I am at least a cautious one.

[RedFox]

I don't care about these people specifically, I am interested in the work that they are doing, but I am trying to trace all of the threads. how much of this comes from break dancing? how much comes from cossack dancing? how much of it is retuinskih's? is there really a 'slavic natural health system' and if so what else does it teach? how can we tie all of this together with feldenkrais and qigong and reichian growth work to create a system that truly helps people overcome their body armoring and fear-reactivity?

 

my own motivation is a perception of my need for this sort of thing, but I think it's something that could benefit a lot of people. because of my own inexperience and personal flaws, I don't feel qualified to tread the road alone, to invent my own techniques. I don't won't to make the mistakes that sonnon seems to have made. so I am trying to find trustworthy teachers, and hopefully one day work collaboratively to create a dynamic and harmonious synthesis. but this is starting to sound a little grandiose and I'm not really that kind of guy.

 

What's interesting to ponder is, when someone gets to the point where they can take something like a slavic health system and combine it with qigong and feldenkrais, and gives up the job in the steel mill or the desk job to teach it out... I have this sneaking suspicion they'll probably end in the same position as Sonnon is now. Searching for the best way to reach people, and despite their efforts, having their personality and errors along the way subject to intense scrutiny. What fun!

 

These are great questions you're asking, and as you follow that passion, I suspect you're going to find some really fascinating things.

 

The few cents I have on the subject isn't all that unique. There's that saying that goes something like, 'don't follow in the footsteps of a teacher, instead, seek what they sought.' Sonnon's methods of conveying what he's learned/marketing/whatever don't resonate with certain people. That's fair. But, if we back away from the personality and the system, and the techniques and origins... what are we really after here? it's intriguing, the idea of an experience of this thing he's calling 'flow'.

 

Thing is, expression of 'flow' is unique to an individual. Physical feats may or may not be one person's expression of flow, although physical blockages are easier to start with for most people (vs. trying to get a westerner to cultivate their internal environment with microcosmic orbit or fusion exercises or something). We're not going to find a teacher who can give us our experience of it. And we'll certainly never experience it by mindlessly copying one. What we do find, though, is that there are a lot of people and a lot of systems out there that are rather good at locating and unraveling impediments to flow. Things that prevent us from expressing our inner genius in whatever endeavor we're pursuing.

 

Sonnon's system in at least this one respect is just like every other system out there. It's what he found in his search to deal with what got in his way. And, you could add, the rest of it are some of the possibilities that he's been able to explore as a result of working through away some of his own impediments. Same as Mantak Chia. Same as (insert system founder here).

 

But its my feeling that the only thing that matters is what we do in our search to get rid of what's in our way. That may involve digesting an existing system out there, or it may involve experimentally piecing one together as Taobums tend to do. Beyond the personality of who happens to have the information we need, it's getting rid of what separates us from (flow, the experience of qi, the present moment, insert system buzzword here) that matters. Its the results of our disciplined exploration and application, of a given technique/system/teacher that resonates with us that matters. Does it effectively help us through some of what blocks our way? Does it integrate well with who we are, or otherwise make sense to us? As long as the personality stuff doesn't interfere with the results I'm after, I'm good to go.

Edited September 28, 2008 by RedFox

[mjjbecker]

A lot lot simpler if your sole relationship w/ teacher is via a couple o' dvd's. * whew! *

 

Very true, though I wonder how following someone else's movements exactly could achieve a similar mental state?

[Spectrum]

Very true, though I wonder how following someone else's movements exactly could achieve a similar mental state?

 

collective syncronization through mimicry or coinhabitation. like birds in a flock. a feeling of oneness and belonging follows the resonant field frequency.

Edited September 28, 2008 by Spectrum

[mjjbecker]

michael becker, thank you for your words of encouragement

 

You are very welcome. I enjoyed reading your posts very much. A lot of good questions and issues raised.

 

Procurator,

 

You read like a deeply cynical man, someone who clearly feels disillusioned with their experiences in life. Otherwise, you wouldn't be so rude and obnoxious without any real need to be, or provocation from others. Sorry to see you didn't have the success with your penis enlargement program that you were hoping for, however that does not entitle you to act like a penis with other people. You might find that your experience of life improves as you start to treat other people with basic civility and respect.

 

Having stepped on the mat with judoka that have competed at a Olympic trial level, been joint locked and thrown by an aikido master of over thirty years experience, hit by experts of various disciplines, including a former S.E. Asia full contact champion, I think I have an understanding of what does-or does not-constitute being hit hard.

 

As for my friends, they are well enough known in certain martial arts circles, one of them having published numerous articles and several books on the martial arts. Both are very capable in 'real' situations. The reason they choose to see what other people are doing is because they have open and enquiring minds. Better than having a stagnant toilet-like one where the only things gestating are unpleasant and best left in the dark where they don't poison the atmosphere.

 

The good Systema people hit in a manner like capable internal martial artists. This I know from experience, as opposed to just being an opinionated troll. If you had ever bothered to step on the mat with some of the Systema experts you would know this. Your opinion shows you simply have no experience, just an opinion. If you had any worthwhile experience, then you WOULD KNOW. Therefore what you say is worthless.

 

You however, are the worst of the internet. The person who sits behind their assumed internet identity and who therefore feels free to insult and demean others, safe in the knowledge of their anonymity. In short, a coward.

 

Now, don't let my above comments fool you into thinking that your opinions on Russian martial arts, myself or my friends bother me in the least. They don't. I'm quite comfortable in the knowledge of my own, and their, experiences. You haven't touched a nerve. I simply write this in the hope you realise that how you interact with other people will dictate how they interact with you.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[mjjbecker]

Spectrum,

 

I was thinking more along the lines of how various body positions, breathing, tension and relaxation, effect the psychological state of the individual. For example, the different mind states created by an upright posture and a crouching one in combat. A crouching posture is supposed to generate a more aggressive attitude according to some people.

 

Bruce Frantzis in an interview some years back commented on how practising qigong from some of the White Crane gongfu schools brought about a very aggressive attitude in the practitioner, along with a psychotic, sociopathic attitude towards others. From my own experiences, using similar breathing methods, I've found this to be true.

 

I wonder how following Mr Sonnon precisely in his movements, tension level, etc. would bring about a similar mental state to his, good and bad?

 

Best,

 

Mike

[qirin]

What's interesting to ponder is, when someone gets to the point where they can take something like a slavic health system and combine it with qigong and feldenkrais, and gives up the job in the steel mill or the desk job to teach it out... I have this sneaking suspicion they'll probably end in the same position as Sonnon is now. Searching for the best way to reach people, and despite their efforts, having their personality and errors along the way subject to intense scrutiny. What fun!

 

yeah, that's not really a position that I would want to be in. in some ways, though, scott sonnon reminds me a lot of ken wilber. I think both guys have a lot of interesting things to say and are clearly intelligent and decent people for the most part. but both of them became addicted to being the center of a cult of personality, and increasingly sold themselves as part and parcel with their ideas. consequently, they both have come under a lot of attack, and in some cases a lot of unwarranted attack. and they have responded to this by estranging all but their most slavish devotees.

 

The few cents I have on the subject isn't all that unique.

 

maybe not unique, but it's good stuff. the reason why I posted here is that I find it interesting listening to everyone present the different sides of the issue.

 

Thing is, expression of 'flow' is unique to an individual. Physical feats may or may not be one person's expression of flow, although physical blockages are easier to start with for most people (vs. trying to get a westerner to cultivate their internal environment with microcosmic orbit or fusion exercises or something). We're not going to find a teacher who can give us our experience of it. And we'll certainly never experience it by mindlessly copying one. What we do find, though, is that there are a lot of people and a lot of systems out there that are rather good at locating and unraveling impediments to flow. Things that prevent us from expressing our inner genius in whatever endeavor we're pursuing.

 

flow is unique to an individual, but flow is also something that is a property of groups. from what I've read, they use or at least used to use the word 'haragei' in japan to refer to the practice of cultivating a still center, but primarily with regard to the application of those practices to groups. so haragei means the art of listening to your belly and also the art of being a part of a group. I have had some experience of this phenomenon in zen meditation groups, mostly from how laughably we americans failed at it. and on a much more profound level in drum circles. playing the djun-djun, a big african bass drum used in ensembles, is truly a spiritual experience. as you become the centerpoint around which the group revolves, you find that the beat you are playing comes less and less from your own will and more from riding the ebb and flow of the rhythms around you.

 

I think our experience of our own flow becomes enriched when we share it with others, and when we learn to combine ourselves with them. but that's a double-edged sword. a woman whose tui na class I attended said that it's really important to learn qigong from someone who is trustworthy and experienced, because when you learn energy work from someone you open yourself to their influence, much more so than if you learn something material. I think practicing flow, and more esoteric types of yoga, arguable is a kind of qigong and should be approached with equal care.

 

anyway I enjoyed your comments very much and they definitely helped me to see things in a different light than I had been before.

 

Spectrum,

I wonder how following Mr Sonnon precisely in his movements, tension level, etc. would bring about a similar mental state to his, good and bad?

 

is this a rhetorical question?

 

I've watched a lot of RMAX instructor's videos on youtube because I didn't feel like shelling out money for the various clubbell videos. it's surprising how much material is up; sonnon even seems to have put up the whole beginning and intermediate intu-flow videos.

 

anyway, the other coaches seem to reflect a lot scott's foibles. maybe that's because like attracts like, but you can see his stiff posture, obscurantist language and fear mongering show up in a lot of their statements and videos.

Edited September 28, 2008 by qirin

[mjjbecker]

 

is this a rhetorical question?

 

I've watched a lot of RMAX instructor's videos on youtube because I didn't feel like shelling out money for the various clubbell videos. it's surprising how much material is up; sonnon even seems to have put up the whole beginning and intermediate intu-flow videos.

 

anyway, the other coaches seem to reflect a lot scott's foibles. maybe that's because like attracts like, but you can see his stiff posture, obscurantist language and fear mongering show up in a lot of their statements and videos.

 

It's not something I can say I know for certain, but I would speculate it is possible and as such it would influence my own choices regarding who I learn from.

 

I also think we do pick up on other peoples energy and it can influence us, good and bad. When I spend time around my teacher I find myself feeling more at peace with myself and the world. There have been times I have went to see him pissed off with circumstances, and such feelings have gone within a fairly short time.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[RedFox]

yeah, that's not really a position that I would want to be in. in some ways, though, scott sonnon reminds me a lot of ken wilber. I think both guys have a lot of interesting things to say and are clearly intelligent and decent people for the most part. but both of them became addicted to being the center of a cult of personality, and increasingly sold themselves as part and parcel with their ideas. consequently, they both have come under a lot of attack, and in some cases a lot of unwarranted attack. and they have responded to this by estranging all but their most slavish devotees.

 

It would probably be fairer to say "seem to have responded." Without meeting and getting to know the person behind the persona, one can only make educated guesses. All we really have to make that guess is the content (what they decided to share), and the manner that they decided to share it - what they thought would reach their audience.

 

If nothing else, I actually admire folks who risk that judgment and put themselves out there anyway. Maybe it's not perfect, but it allows different ideas to become accessible to people who might not've had the opportunity otherwise.

 

flow is unique to an individual, but flow is also something that is a property of groups. from what I've read, they use or at least used to use the word 'haragei' in japan to refer to the practice of cultivating a still center, but primarily with regard to the application of those practices to groups. so haragei means the art of listening to your belly and also the art of being a part of a group. I have had some experience of this phenomenon in zen meditation groups, mostly from how laughably we americans failed at it. and on a much more profound level in drum circles. playing the djun-djun, a big african bass drum used in ensembles, is truly a spiritual experience. as you become the centerpoint around which the group revolves, you find that the beat you are playing comes less and less from your own will and more from riding the ebb and flow of the rhythms around you.

 

Those are two things that Americans definitely suck at! Stillness is definitely not encouraged in our culture. We distract ourselves so much that when we stop moving, what we were distracting ourselves from comes to the surface like a thousand three year olds tugging on your shirt. Most of the time, better to physically exhaust an american first. My guess is that they suck at flow in groups for much the same reason. We encourage the success and development of the individual over development of the larger group. But I also guess that the best way to help americans find that by helping them remove what gets in the way of their personal flow first.

 

And I'm with you on the drum circle experience. I haven't done it in years, but I still have my drum (one weekend, our drum circle even made our drums together. Very cool!) But it's incredible when you make that shift. Its one thing to 'know' that I am connected to something bigger than me. But then you feel it.

 

I think our experience of our own flow becomes enriched when we share it with others, and when we learn to combine ourselves with them. but that's a double-edged sword. a woman whose tui na class I attended said that it's really important to learn qigong from someone who is trustworthy and experienced, because when you learn energy work from someone you open yourself to their influence, much more so than if you learn something material.

 

I'm not sure I would separate energy skills from physical skills. What happens to you depends more on the kind of person you are. If you're the kind of person who would say they were empathic by nature, and/or kind of malleable in the face of stronger personalities (and a rather large share of new agers/healers are in my experience) then yes, it absolutely matters, and it might be better to go with DVDs and books over live training until you find yourself in a place where you're really comfortable with what you've seen and can trust enough to study live with a person. (You'll probably grow frustrated with them someday anyway, but learning how to deal with that, and as a result refining your personality boundaries, is just as important a skill as any other)

 

If you have a pretty good handle on who you are when you're around others, it's a little different. Its more like 'this person seems to have been where I'd like to go. I'm willing to give what they're teaching a go to see what happens.' and it's more like learning a skill than absorbing a part of their personality. If your personality changes, it's a result of having new skills and life experiences. You do expose yourself more to the personality of the teacher going that route, but you stay or go with that teacher based on results. I will say that it's so much easier to learn when you've got someone with experience nearby, who can give you feedback on things that might take you years of solitary study to notice, much less unravel on your own. Tradeoffs...

 

I think practicing flow, and more esoteric types of yoga, arguable is a kind of qigong and should be approached with equal care.

 

I'd agree with that. The way I see it, they're all fundamentally the same thing... systems and techniques that were designed to identify and remove baggage. Its only a question of which one(s) best address our unique collection of restrictions, and which one(s) we can convince ourselves to actually do every day.

 

anyway, the other coaches seem to reflect a lot scott's foibles. maybe that's because like attracts like, but you can see his stiff posture, obscurantist language and fear mongering show up in a lot of their statements and videos.

 

I know you were directing this at someone else, but could you post a few of those videos/websites to this thread? I'd like to see what you're seeing.

Edited September 28, 2008 by RedFox

[qirin]

It would probably be fairer to say "seem to have responded."

 

yes, you're totally right, I stated that too strongly.

 

If nothing else, I actually admire folks who risk that judgment and put themselves out there anyway. Maybe it's not perfect, but it allows different ideas to become accessible to people who might not've had the opportunity otherwise.

 

yeah, it takes a huge amount of courage to put your ideas out there and to try to market them, and I think most people do it partly out of a desire for recognition and partly out of genuine interest in the well-being of others. there's nothing wrong with wanting recognition for the quality of your work, or for wanting to exercise your skills as a leader. and if scottt sonnon or ken wilber or whoever really just wanted to increase their cash flow without regard for anyone else, they probably would have gone the penis enlargement route.

 

But I also guess that the best way to help americans find that by helping them remove what gets in the way of their personal flow first.

 

IMHO it can work both ways. I think working in groups can definitely be a way to help put people back in touch with their own stillness. but overcoming your own blocks is key.

 

I'm not sure I would separate energy skills from physical skills. What happens to you depends more on the kind of person you are.

 

well I can't speak for the woman who originally made the comment (that you need to be careful who teaches you qigong), but in my own experience there definitely is a line, albeit it a very blurry one, between energy work and other kinds of activity.

 

an anecdote... I attended a qigong circle at a place called the tibetan healing center here in san diego once... basically we all just sat in a room together and listened to a tape of guided meditation by this zhineng qigong guy. twenty people, probably only a few of us knew each other, no one said a word, but we all seemed to be on the same page as far as why we were there, what we wanted out of it, etc.

 

it was a very intense experience. I am sure you have probably done the exercise where you hold an energy ball in between your hands. we essentially, at least the way I felt it, formed an energy ball connecting the entire group, which seemed to pulse or spin with a regular period, like a vortex. the facilitator said something like "wow, you guys are really focused. the energy in this room is intense!"

 

anyway, the next day I had a kind of emotional breakdown. for three days I couldn't stop crying. I am sure that my reaction was a result of where I was at in life at that point, and that my reaction to the group had as much to do with my own temperament, as you say. but I think that the experience itself also played a part, and I was lucky to have been surrounded by well-intentioned people at the time.

 

If you're the kind of person who would say they were empathic by nature

 

yes, I am an empath and a kind of energy conduit. when I am around a lot of intense people, I have to work hard to stay grounded.

 

I will say that it's so much easier to learn when you've got someone with experience nearby, who can give you feedback on things that might take you years of solitary study to notice, much less unravel on your own.

 

yes, definitely. I know feel fairly confident in practicing yoga on my own because of after years of classes I have little neville billmoria (my first yoga teacher) that sits on my shoulder giving me pointers.

 

I will add the links to videos later.

[qirin]

with regard to the videos, if you are asking about people modelling scott's body movements, here are some examples:

 

coach steer talking about flowfit

 

when adam is standing at the beginning of the video, I find his posture and hand gestures strikingly similar to scott on the flowfit video.

 

and

both show a certain sonnon influence in their posture and body language.

 

specifically, note the angle of the head. while you expect most martial artists to hold their heads level sonnon tends to hold his head slightly forward like a boxer. also note lack of head and shoulder movement while talking and stiffness of the upper body. a certain rhythm to the use of the hands. gesturing with the hands without lifting the shoulders.

 

compare these to scott

and

 

in

, the interviewer amusingly comments that a lot of sonnon's students seem to be torquing their backs. I think that happens because working with clubbells while doing intu-flwo results in the same qualities that scott has: stiffness through the midchest and overflexibility of the lumbar region and hips. from a reichian standpoint, excessive hip flexibility shows a desire to overperform sexually, while holding your chest tight indicates both puffing yourself up like a rooster and holding in your emotions (trying to prevent energy from the heart spreading to other parts of the body).

 

if you' want examples of people copying scott's language and his particular brand of fallacies, I can give you two examples off the top of my head. in a thread about homemade clubbells on youtube here, coach bao tran writes:

 

"You will not get the same benefits from using this homemade clubbell because "the center of mass" on a real CB is missing from this homemade one. I do not recommend it. You won't be doing Circular Strength Training with this homemade clubbell, you will be doing else.

 

Bao Tran

Certified Circular Strength Training Coach"

 

here you see some common sonnon tactics: a psuedo-scientific assertion without any evidence (that the COM of the club will be different and that changing the COM will not give you the same benefits), an appeal to authority (citing his "credentials"), and an implication that CST is somehow magically superior to other training methods.

 

the other example I can think of is, if I recall correctly, coach steer stating on the RMAX forums that all kettlebells besides those manufactured by a brand called "Pro-Gear" are inherently unsafe, thus using his authority as a coach to override the absurdity of his statement. kettlebells are solid hunks of metal, so they differ very little from manufacturer to manufacturer, and swinging around a 35 pound hunk of metal is unsafe to begin with.

 

if you want other examples, they're all over the CST boards.

 

also for comparison, check out these videos of

and some other guy doing intu-flow and body-flow type exercises. it's quite a difference, I find, from scott's style. they are much looser and more flowing, almost like rag dolls. sonnon's students are learning sonnon's style, which is far more controlled and less rhythmic.

 

for instance, watch some of scott's students here

Edited September 28, 2008 by qirin

[RedFox]

Thanks for sharing that, both posts. Those are some nice videos of Retuinskih and the other guy (hopefully he has a name!) I'm not sure I'd call it a truly fair comparison between the results of the approaches yet, as the clips you've chosen catch Sonnon and crew in teaching/talking mode, and the Russians while they are in performing mode. You know what I mean, it's not quite apples and apples.

 

I'm not quite sure what I can add to the discussion on energy/physical skills, except maybe this. At the moment, I look at the former as involving as being natural, but more like a deeper (EM?) level of proprioception, as compared the structural end which comprises your awareness of position in space and all that. The more you train to chip away at the armoring preventing you from accessing either end of that spectrum, the more you expose the squishy (or solid) golden center underneath to more and more of the real world outside, and its influences. Whether you're moving physically or sitting still and meditating, a squishy center is at risk of being pushed and pulled like taffy by those influences. I believe its important feedback though, even being pushed that way. I don't suspect that that center can grow and evolve the way it was meant to hiding behind the armor all the time.

 

You asked early on if the value of Sonnon's programs outweigh his marketing techniques. I haven't answered that yet, and my answer is yes. And yes, there are also plenty of ways to train without going through him. I've run into several individuals who train ROSS in my various travels, but I can't offer any contacts. I'm sure they have material on the web you can order, but you'll want to eventually find an instructor or training group. You'll find pieces of his system all over the place. You'll find versions of intuflow in Hawaiian hula culture, belly dance, tai chi warmups, you name it. Yoga is clearly everywhere these days, and you've already studied that. If you're book oriented, check out Structural Yoga Therapy if you want to see a book that describes two of the three aspects of his system. They've had clubs in the middle east for centuries so there's a whole culture to be drawn upon there, and you can order clubbells directly from torque if you're not handy with steel and rubber/polyurethane crafts. You can piece it all back together that way from what people share. It could take a while to put it back together the way you want it, but it will undoubtedly be an amazing, unforgettable journey, because you will have earned with your sweat everything you encounter.

 

Or, you can work with the dvds that make sense and fit your goals, try the training protocols and see how they work for you... and just not drink the koolaid. You don't need to believe in Sonnon.. you only need to believe that what you really want is possible for you, and that you can get it by fueling discipline with passion. (Some people need the allure of "Russian secrets" or "Taoist secrets" or whatever to incent them to get off their *sses and train. Some people don't.)

 

I would like to recommend that when you do decide on the direction of your training, that you put some 'skin in the game'. Dive into the shallow end, invest some of your money as well as your sweat. It sounds like you're working with just what you can get for free off the net, or borrow from friends. There's always some value in that, but you'll find that you do better if you put a little bit of you on the line. Whoever you end up studying with. I've never regretted paying hard earned money for exactly what I was after at the time.

[qirin]

I'm not sure I'd call it a truly fair comparison between the results of the approaches yet, as the clips you've chosen catch Sonnon and crew in teaching/talking mode, and the Russians while they are in performing mode. You know what I mean, it's not quite apples and apples.

 

I meant that you should compare the three students talking to sonnon talking, not to retuinskih and the spetsnaz guy. I think that sonnon's students over time come to imitate some of his posture and mannerisms.

 

I believe its important feedback though, even being pushed that way. I don't suspect that that center can grow and evolve the way it was meant to hiding behind the armor all the time.

 

I agree 100%

 

You'll find pieces of his system all over the place. You'll find versions of intuflow in Hawaiian hula culture, belly dance, tai chi warmups, you name it.

 

yeah just yesterday I discovered ginastica natural, which is a system of yoga developed by some brazilian jiu-jitsu people, which bears striking resemblance to some of the systema techniques and to sonnon's work. so this stuff is everywhere in little pieces, sonnon just seems to have tied together some of the most important threads.

 

Whoever you end up studying with. I've never regretted paying hard earned money for exactly what I was after at the time.

 

sure, definitely. right now for me it's just a question of who and where, not if. for the time being I might just study jiu-jitsu and taiji independently, and maybe one day study systema. I could work the CST system, but with sonnon's increasing push towards macdonaldization, I think the price tag will be moving out of my range.

Edited September 30, 2008 by qirin