What would you have done?

[Stigweard]

A friend of mine, Carolyn, ask me some advice on what could she have done to deal better with an unfortunate situation she had found herself in. I helped her find some solutions but I would love to hear your thoughts to flesh out my own thinking.

 

Carolyn, being a slight elderly lady, was on a plane trip and got herself landed sitting next to a big burly doctor. A polite conversation sprang up and turned to matters of health and natural therapies (Carolyn being a reflexologist and a practition of other remedies). The Dr admitted that he was once an accupuncturist and had previously had some interest in asian philosophy but was now convinced that it was all the devils work and that anyone and everyone who had anything to do with such practices were involved with evil. He was apparently quite beligerant and domineering with his sentiments.

 

Now Carolyn was quite effected adversely by this and wanted to know how she could handle it better in future.

 

Question for you: What advice would you give to Carolyn?

[rain]

please define "quite effected adversely".

[sunshine]

please define "quite effected adversely".

 

If it was like she felt suddenly "bad", felt "angry" or whatever of that kind:

EFT & PEAT... not enough experience with BSFF

 

smiles

 

Harry

[joeblast]

The Dr admitted that he was once an accupuncturist and had previously had some interest in asian philosophy but was now convinced that it was all the devils work and that anyone and everyone who had anything to do with such practices were involved with evil. He was apparently quite beligerant and domineering with his sentiments.

 

Now Carolyn was quite effected adversely by this and wanted to know how she could handle it better in future.

 

Question for you: What advice would you give to Carolyn?

I'd say take his statements and disassemble them with logic and compassion. I mean, really...what in tarnation would make one conclude that acupuncture and TCM are the devil's work? That's straight where I would have went. What'd someone break a needle off in his ass or something? Seriously, when people sit there baselessly pontificating, just snap them off the bring them back to reality. One can conclude whatever one wishes, if one ignores all kinds of stuff

[Sloppy Zhang]

I was raised Catholic, so if push REALLY comes to shove, I know quite a few ways of using orthodox religious logic to support non-orthodox religious points, not to mention I know enough about history to do the same, so if it was a long flight with a really pushy person I might do it but...

 

9 times out of 10 when someone says something along the line of, "any type of X practices is devil worship I'm 100% convinced of it." Then I'll either say "that's certainly a well known view point." and just leave it at that, or if I'm feeling mildly curious ask, "if you used to do it yourself how did you realize it was evil?"

 

Chances are they'll be itching to save another soul, so they won't hesitate to give you this big long story about how they were so evil and apart from God, but when they realized the error of their ways they made the conversion and are now so much happier with their lives (all the while making parallels to your own life and implying that you should do the same), after which you respond with, "wow, that's an amazing story, certainly something I'll have to think over, thanks."

 

Then you kinda leave it. They're happy because they saved a soul by getting you to doubt your ways, and you're happy because they're not being pushy about it. If they are, then just keep repeating things like, "you certainly have a lot to evidence." or something like that.

 

The sad thing is that there is a LOT in the Bible that speaks against saying things like what that doctor was saying, first and foremost the famous phrase of "judge not let ye be judged yourself" (or at least something to that effect, we've all heard that! ) From the orthodox viewpoint God knows everyone and no one is exempt from judgment, so people don't need to judge, and the very fact that a very "devout" follower is sitting there condemning people tells quite a bit about them.

Edited September 27, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[de_paradise]

I went through something similar with a friend recently. She went on the offensive and became very obnoxious and arrogant--unusually so. With the emotional level beyond what I had prepared for, I lost my cool too.

 

But lets backtrack, because the Doctor and my friend both erupted in an unusual fashion--emotionally. With the doctor the clue is the cognitive dissonance. Who knows what he went through that he went from acupuncturist to pulling a 180, some emotionally compelling reasons for sure. He has a huge stake in justifying his behavior to himself and others. Carolyn was just a bystander really.

 

My meaning is that you are not going to get rational debate out of someone whose emotions are tripped like that. Probably there is no graceful exit either.

 

My friend is a depressive with a very tenuous grip on life, but one thing she can rely on is rationality and conventional belief. Now, our spiritual stuff really pulls the rug out from this ediface, hence her ego comes out slugging to shut it down, and its gonna make sure it wins.

 

Just being aware of when people react abnormally or very emotionally to certain issues, that it changes the whole context of the way you can respond. Sometimes just retreating is the best you can do, and reframe the negativity into a learning situation so it doesnt rankle so long.

[mjjbecker]

How did your friend handle the situation? You don't say.

Edited September 27, 2008 by mjjbecker

[thelerner]

Being able to drop things is an important part of maturity and sanity. The problem is letting go of a bad memory instead of letting it chase its own tail and burrowing deeply.

 

One yogic exercise (very NLP) for letting go is remembering the conversation and all the ire it produced, then consciously stop thinking of it. Repeat it several times, until it starts loosing its emotional edge.

 

After it loses its emotional power you may consider running it through your head with both sides talking in cartoon voices. This seriously helps put conflict into its true perspective.

 

 

Michael

[Trunk]

Question for you: What advice would you give to Carolyn?

Quietly go up to the front and say to the flight attendant that her seat "was not working out" and indicate her neighbor if asked, and ask if she could be moved to another seat.

(Did someone already say this?... too lazy to read all of this thread.)

Edited September 27, 2008 by Trunk

[三江源]

I'm sorry Carolyn got so upset. As Harry said, I'd say 'do some EFT on your emotional response to him, work out your own hit upon nerve and what is behind it".

And to the good Dr, I'd say "Your opinion is the mainstream one, for sure. A lot of folks would agree with you." And then do what Trunk said.

[chrisjswanson]

1) Distinguish between excitement and aggression in communication style.

 

* Excitement means one is raising tone / volume due to becoming elated by what is being said.

 

* Aggression means one is raising tone / volume due to feeling threatened.

 

2) If you see excitement, ask yourself why you misinterpreted it as aggression. Did you feel threatened?

 

3) If you see aggression, ask yourself why this person feels threatened. Is it a permanent state, or are you partially responsible?

 

4) If you find you are partly responsible, correct for it. Take the time to learn from this person who has found their own personal 'Truth'. Learn to see your own Truth in others', and they won't feel threatened.

 

5) If the person is permanently feeling threatened and throwing around negative energy because of it, ask yourself: Can I alleviate suffering in the person to an extent that it outweighs the effects on myself? Will spending too much time around this person diminish my ability to alleviate suffering in other people?

 

6) Be creative and act accordingly :-)

 

peace + love

Chris

[rain]

1) Distinguish between excitement and aggression in communication style.

 

* Excitement means one is raising tone / volume due to becoming elated by what is being said.

 

* Aggression means one is raising tone / volume due to feeling threatened.

 

2) If you see excitement, ask yourself why you misinterpreted it as aggression. Did you feel threatened?

 

3) If you see aggression, ask yourself why this person feels threatened. Is it a permanent state, or are you partially responsible?

 

4) If you find you are partly responsible, correct for it. Take the time to learn from this person who has found their own personal 'Truth'. Learn to see your own Truth in others', and they won't feel threatened.

 

5) If the person is permanently feeling threatened and throwing around negative energy because of it, ask yourself: Can I alleviate suffering in the person to an extent that it outweighs the effects on myself? Will spending too much time around this person diminish my ability to alleviate suffering in other people?

 

6) Be creative and act accordingly :-)

 

peace + love

Chris

 

this was very lovely. here you carry the communication flow over into positive vibes instead of cutting it short.

that is win win.

If she was able to leave the seat without remorse that would have been fine too,

and she could also...have interrupted him by leaning over to him, touched his jacket slightly and in a most caring and subtle way made him understand that he had "something" .."just a little something he would want to remove..right there in his face"?....... but maybe thats being mean?

[Oolong Rabbit]

I learned a long time ago, that you can't reason with irrational people. I would have changed the subject, and if he kept pushing just say "well we'll have to just agree to disagree". Maybe even throw in a request for him to pray for God to reveal the error of your ways if you are wrong. The bible thumping crowd loves this stuff, and it will make him feel empowered.

 

To be honest, a few years ago, I would have handled it much diferently. I would have went for the jugular throwing all kinds of arguments contradicting the dvinity of Jesus, and parallel myths etc... but I have long since let go of my animosity towards christianity. For all it's bad points, it has its good and serves its purpose.

 

 

Brgds!

[tealady]

I like to think I would have just allowed the conversation to fade away into silence. His opinion of her really doesn't matter. It is his problem not hers. It is his loss not hers. She felt that she was passing along valuable information and it was up to him to do with it what he wanted.

 

I would have let his negativity slide away.

[Stigweard]

Cheers for all your comments. Hope y'all don't mind if I print this out and share it with Carolyn.

 

In terms of how she reacted she became quite locked up emotionally and wasn't able to say what she trully wanted to say. The Doc was very domineering and partially turned the outburst into a personal attack (or at least that is how Carolyn perceived it).

 

It is hard to find the appropriate response when you have allowed yourself to become emotionally backed into a corner and if you can overcome your inaction then often you come out fighting which can be an inappropriate response.

 

Carolyn is a Tai Chi student of mine and as she was relating the incident to me she was unconsciously displaying her emotional state through her body language (chest and shoulders withdrawn, hands up defending her heart). I always like people to discover there own answers so I guided her through some freeform taiji and then I got her to 'dance' how she felt when she was in the situation. Her body and movements became withdrawn and locked and then bust out into feral defensive aggression.

 

I brought her back to her taiji centre with some breathing and Song Gong, and then asked her to physically express how she could have done better. Well her chest opened up, head upright, breathing was strong and steady and stance was relaxed.

 

Carolyn's lesson: even in the most adverse situation, find your centre, feel your inner power, take a moment to breathe and let the most appropriate response reveal itself.

 

I really appreciate all you comments here.

 

If it was like she felt suddenly "bad", felt "angry" or whatever of that kind:

EFT & PEAT... not enough experience with BSFF

 

smiles

 

Harry

 

 

Please explain further ... what are EFT PEAT and BSFF?

 

1) Distinguish between excitement and aggression in communication style.

 

* Excitement means one is raising tone / volume due to becoming elated by what is being said.

 

* Aggression means one is raising tone / volume due to feeling threatened.

 

2) If you see excitement, ask yourself why you misinterpreted it as aggression. Did you feel threatened?

 

3) If you see aggression, ask yourself why this person feels threatened. Is it a permanent state, or are you partially responsible?

 

4) If you find you are partly responsible, correct for it. Take the time to learn from this person who has found their own personal 'Truth'. Learn to see your own Truth in others', and they won't feel threatened.

 

5) If the person is permanently feeling threatened and throwing around negative energy because of it, ask yourself: Can I alleviate suffering in the person to an extent that it outweighs the effects on myself? Will spending too much time around this person diminish my ability to alleviate suffering in other people?

 

6) Be creative and act accordingly :-)

 

peace + love

Chris

 

 

Cheers for this.

[Apech]

It seems to me that if this man used to be an acupuncturist and was interested in eastern philosophy and now completely rejected it, then he had a massive conflict in himself. In fact on the basis that energy 'cannot be created or destroyed' then he must have labeled part of himself as evil and so on. People like this will emanate quite disturbing 'vibrations' I feel and should be handled with great care.

 

Personally since I think every being has a point of view of some sort, I would have asked him what exactly he meant by the Devil and evil but only because I would have been interested enough to remind myself not ever to fall into this way of thinking myself. I would have said clearly to myself that this was his issue and not mine and closed down the conversation as quickly as possible.

 

If the experience left me with an after taste then I would have worked on that in myself to see what inconsistency or conflict his behaviour had resonated within me. Or if I had a life to live, just waited for the natural process of assimilation to complete - life has its knocks I'm afraid they just have to be suffered sometimes.

[Cameron]

There are still people like this all over the place. Actually, my own father, on two occasions I brought up my interest in eastern arts and chinese medicine etc. The first time he started saying how it was all bs and that it is an unnatural manipulation of the nerves or something. The second he basically insulted the entire Chinese culture saying it was low level and they are all just a "bunch of smokers"

 

I never brought the subject up with him again. That's my Dad. A complete stranger I would just change the topic asap. Talk about baseball or something.

 

Arguing about this stuff is a waste of time imo. Your either into it or your not.

[shontonga]

It seems to me that if this man used to be an acupuncturist and was interested in eastern philosophy and now completely rejected it, then he had a massive conflict in himself.

 

Would say he ...Had a girl friend who was into it, his reason for studying it all,

and she probably raked him over the coals!

... poor boy, now we're all evil needle hurling debil worships!

 

I would have said clearly to myself that this was his issue and not mine and closed down the conversation as quickly as possible.

 

If the experience left me with an after taste then I would have worked on that in myself to see what inconsistency or conflict his behaviour had resonated within me. Or if I had a life to live, just waited for the natural process of assimilation to complete - life has its knocks I'm afraid they just have to be suffered sometimes.

 

Lot's of good life advice here from all!

Thanks!

 

Shon

[h.uriahr]

There is no verse in the Old Testament nor the New Testament that objects to any kind of self healing or meditation. Christians often lable the unknown as demonically influenced. A great example is all the document burnings of the Mayans and the witch trials. She shouldve asked him for a verse, it would have ended there. Saying self healing is demonic is saying that our bodies are demonic because regardless of intent your body pumps out antibodies to combat sickness.

[三江源]

Oh, was he a born again Christian?

 

In that case, she could have asked him if he wanted to be her 100th Mile High Club buddy.

 

Never mind the acupuncture dude, let's get it on!

 

 

Then he would have been the one who'd be asking to get his seat changed..

[seadog]

I would thank my lucky stars.What a great opportunity for some fun.

[doc benway]

I would ask your friend to look at the situation from a perspective of compassion-

Strong emotional content, belligerence, hostility, intolerance - all generally are an indication of suffering. Fear, desire, lack of confidence, and so forth.

I would try and feel sympathy for someone such as this doctor who is so locked up in his suffering that he is unable to share in a pleasant moment or two with a stranger on an airplane.

I don't think anything can be done on the spot to change the situation other than to use Taiji - yield and neutralize. Accept his strong feelings, let them go past and fade. Then come to a different area of discussion or simply read a book and disengage entirely.

He is in a place that he will have to work his way out of. With more time there could possibly be an opportunity to help him grow, to let go of some of the hostility. The best way to deal with this in the short term, IMO, is to receive the hostility and return compassion.

[gendao]

Well, ironically, it is suspected that during his 18 missing years in the Bible, Jesus actually went east and studied with yogis and perhaps even Tibetan Buddhists, thus learning "hands-on healing," siddhis, how to attain his yang light body and pithy fortune cookie aphorisms when he got back...

 

That said, I basically agree with Cam. I wouldn't have gotten too invested in it, cuz pouring tea into full cup generally only make big mess!

Arguing about this stuff is a waste of time imo. Your either into it or your not.

[wenwu]

this is a great question

 

i have had to deal with people laughing at me or being angry about the hings that i do (martial arts, meditation, TEFL teaching and others)

 

I don't lie and i adon't run away from people who are like that, i see it as a oppurtunity to test myself, test what i have learnt.

 

I am not interested in taking pther peoples beliefs apart, thy have the right to believe that it is the work of the devil just as i have the right to believe it isn't

 

I approach all these people the same, i listen to what htey have to say and i don't get emotionaly attached to anything that i or the other person says. as soon as you start using emotion you get stressed and fight or flight response kicks in. also you enter a energy stuggle with some one where you are both try to gain or win energy from each other

 

listen, present your point of view, repesct his point of view. if the man gets out of control don't react don't get int o a fight but finish the conversation. use yin against his yang