no fajin no taiji

[adam mizner]

i am sure there are many taiji players on this list. when someone teaches an art we expect them to have a solid understanding of how to apply it. yet many teachers seem to have no application abilities and no fa jin at all. even worse some claim fa jin is a whippy strike (explosive power) yet what they are doing is poor kung fu and nothing more. what a pity... so i ask how do people have faith in these teachers? and on what reasoning do they think that it is taiji they are being taught?

 

Adam

[mjjbecker]

Probably most practitioners of taijiquan have no real interest in the martial arts side. Even in China many, if not most people, simply see it as a form of exercise. Just doing the form keeps them healthy and happy. Good for them.

 

What made taijiquan, and other related arts, so effective was the gong training. I'm not referring to qi or its use either, but rather the physical training leading to the correct body movement/awareness and applied strength.

 

You could choose to do bagua, hsing i, aiki, whatever, but the key to developing power is the physical conditioning. Fajin is not unique to any one art. It is learned by correct physical training and can be utilised by practitioners of any art.

 

If you are aware of the applications, you can apply taijiquan effectively, even without the gong training. The gong training takes things to another level. Again, this is not about qi, but refined body awareness and strength.

 

Any martial art requires hard physical effort and training. In my experience most people, let alone taiji practitioners, are not prepared to do this. Many people are happy to kid themselves or ride on the reputation of their teacher.

 

Unfortunately there is no shortage of taiji-or qigong-practitioners that believe gentle waving arms in the air exercise will develop amazing qi power. The recent thread on the fool who got smacked by the MMA fighter is a good case in point. I have not seen ANYONE use qi alone to stop a fight or deal with an attacker, and I've seen some amazing things.

 

I may start another thread on body awareness, gong training and how it applies to the martial arts.

 

In the meantime, take a look at a real master at work, the late Wang Peisheng. A rare individual who had both the physical and the qi.

 

 

Best,

 

Mike

Edited September 29, 2008 by mjjbecker

[松永道]

[Spirit Ape]

How is Gong practiced in Taiji?

 

Ape

[adam mizner]

[minkus]

Yes your taiji must be soft though both hardness and softness must be incorperated in the martial training of taiji. (In our school we dont diffrentiate between martial and health use of taiji, we do Chen wich is automatically the two)

 

Chen laojia yilu is softness with hardness dwelling within.

 

Once you/your body aquired hardness and strenght from daily training (iron wrapped in silk) and you can bring the form flexible, relaxed and efficient. You have power.

 

edit: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=0FjGNCnozxs

Edited September 29, 2008 by minkus

[Spirit Ape]

Minkus

 

I wasnt impressed with that clip sorry brother!

 

Ape

[mjjbecker]

That's very nice description Mr Mizner, but wholly vague and so not very enlightening. There are specific exercises, as well you will know. They are after all practised by several branches of taijiquan, including Cheng style, which is the base, if not the whole, of what you practice and teach.

 

I will open another thread. Just bear with me.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[松永道]

in my experience it is the extreme softness that creates the "hardness" not by training the hard. that said i have done plenty of very very hard training as well. but to me the ultimate way is to train in emptiness.

 

Adam

 

As far as application goes, I agree completely. Four ounces to push one thousand pounds. But as far as training methods are concerned, if one starts off with a weak body and only practices softness in the end they will have no ability.

[mjjbecker]

On the subject of fajin demonstrations, Mike Patterson has some nice demo clips that can be downloaded from his website:

 

http://www.hsing-i.com/

[Sloppy Zhang]

It's hard to find a good instructor for many TMA. I took karate for a while when I was younger, and even in karate there are TONS of teachers who do not know proper application. They teach the forms, but not how to apply them correctly. When they do get down to actual fighting, it just becomes more similar to boxing or kickboxing, no actual karate.

 

The same with many other styles and, more importantly, with taiji.

 

Taiji is hard enough as it is to be proficient in martial applications while at the same time adhering to all the proper principles. Not to mention the heavy emphasis put on health. So I'd say the chances of finding a teacher that actually knows what they are talking about is... um... well it's quite hard to find one, IMHO Then there's a teacher that can actually put it into practice, beyond just push hands or the occasional demonstration.

 

I feel really bad because taiji seems to be very powerful and very effective, and there are lots of stories of masters that could do some awesome stuff but... there aren't many people who truly know it and teach it.

[minkus]

Minkus

 

I wasnt impressed with that clip sorry brother!

 

Ape

 

Yeah but he is only a beginner yet

 

 

Here is another more known clip of Chen Xiaowang with more pronounced fajing:

 

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

 

Here is Chen Zheng Lei's fajing:

 

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=8KS_VZm4QWs

 

Chen Yu demonstrating Xinjia Erlu, notice the fajing:

 

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=7SSiRbTAn3A

 

 

Also Chen Zhonghua's fajing is nice ! Not a member of the Chen family despite he's name but he's teacher was an indoor student of Chen Fake (a legendary 17 generation Chen Grandmaster):

 

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Qcskv8cMQ

 

 

Cheers !

Edited September 29, 2008 by minkus

[Taiji Bum]

i am sure there are many taiji players on this list. when someone teaches an art we expect them to have a solid understanding of how to apply it. yet many teachers seem to have no application abilities and no fa jin at all. even worse some claim fa jin is a whippy strike (explosive power) yet what they are doing is poor kung fu and nothing more. what a pity...

Adam

How many taiji players does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Ten, one to screw it in and 9 others to say we do it differently in our school.

 

so i ask how do people have faith in these teachers?

Knowledge is gained with experience. I think if a person goes to a crappy teacher because thats all there is in the area and studies theory from books and joins a forum like this to talk about taiji then thats all that can really be done. Just learn the form as best you can, study theory from books and take a seminar or two. That is really all that is available to most people. I consider myself an "authentic taijiquan teacher" and can teach health, self-defense and alchemy but in my classes I mostly had people interested in only the health side or taking the class because a pottery class got cancelled. I saw a karate teacher learning taijiquan from a video and having huge taiji classes with people wanting to learn the self-defense side.... only to learn karate and being told its taijiquan. Why? No reason, its just the way things are....

 

and on what reasoning do they think that it is taiji they are being taught?

They just dont know. When their teacher is the only one for several hundred miles what is one to expect? They study for years with the wrong guy and then when they are exposed to real taijiquan they realize they have been studying crap for 10 years and quit... feeling very bitter. Thats my sisters story. She studied with a karate guy who made up his own taiji forms and set karate/jujitsu applications to them combined that with kriya yoga and called himself a taijiquan master....

[doc benway]

All very good posts - this is one of my favorite subjects!

 

Tai Ji Quan means Tai Ji boxing. Look at what Tai Ji means. It does NOT mean soft or empty. It means balanced. It means mutual arising and complementary forces, yin balanced with yang. When my opponent attacks with force, I yield. When he yields, I destroy him. 4 ounces deflects a thousand pounds does not mean that all taiji fighting is done by using 4 ounces of force. It simply means that with proper technique, you do not need to clash force against force. I believe that this one brief excerpt from the classics is over emphasized.

 

As was mentioned already, fajin is simply a short, explosive force. It's widely used in Wing Chun, Xing Yi, Yi Quan, Ba Gua, and so forth. Another excerpt from the classics that is an equally important concept is Zhan, Nian, Lian, Sui, Bu Diu, Bu Ding - touch, stick, connect, follow, don't disconnect, don't clash. Then there are skills of neutralization. All of these qualities are a part of applying Tai Ji to combat and I would say that these latter qualities are more unique to Tai Ji than is fajin.

 

There is nothing wrong with practicing the form for it's own benefits. It's a marvelous Qi Gong. If you want to figure out how to make it work as a martial art, however, you must practice form, partner drills, sensitivity training, strength training, flexibility training, meditation, and free fighting. All of the "styles" have the potential to develop into useful martial skill but it is critical to have a good teacher who knows the martial training curriculum (which is much more than form and push hands) and it also requires a good student.

 

I'm looking forward to see the other threads that we are promised will spin off of this one!

 

[Pranaman]

I trust my teacher, because he teaches Yiquan. Also, it's obvious, not only because he is in better shape than anyone i've ever met while being at the age of 60, but because of his energy, attitude, intention, way of teaching, main principles he teaches, understanding of Chi, muscle, and physics, it's obvious, that he could easily apply and whoop anyone that i've ever seen in my life.

[minkus]

Tai Ji Quan means Tai Ji boxing. Look at what Tai Ji means. It does NOT mean soft or empty. It means balanced. It means mutual arising and complementary forces, yin balanced with yang. When my opponent attacks with force, I yield. When he yields, I destroy him. 4 ounces deflects a thousand pounds does not mean that all taiji fighting is done by using 4 ounces of force. It simply means that with proper technique, you do not need to clash force against force.

 

Yeah this is the answer to Adam's question

[mouse]

All very good posts - this is one of my favorite subjects!

 

Tai Ji Quan means Tai Ji boxing. Look at what Tai Ji means. It does NOT mean soft or empty. It means balanced. It means mutual arising and complementary forces, yin balanced with yang. When my opponent attacks with force, I yield. When he yields, I destroy him. 4 ounces deflects a thousand pounds does not mean that all taiji fighting is done by using 4 ounces of force. It simply means that with proper technique, you do not need to clash force against force. I believe that this one brief excerpt from the classics is over emphasized.

 

 

 

Yielding in the proper sense of the Taiji classics means yielding into your structure. This causes the energy issued upon you to go through your structure into the ground and with "4 ounces" can be rebounded through the opponent's center.

 

From the classics:

Anyone who has spent years of practice and still cannot neutralize,

and is always controlled by his opponent,

has not apprehended the fault of double-weightedness.

 

To adhere means to yield.

To yield means to adhere.

 

I think the texts are pretty literal and can be accomplished through the right foundational training.

 

From the form there is always a transfer of energy from one foot to the other foot constantly. Likewise, there is always (1) a yielding into the structure [rear foot normally] then (2) Neutralising into the ground and then (3) an issue through to the front foot [normally].

 

Not many understand this or achieve it and hence claim the classics are hiding secret teachings... it really is quite literal.

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

[mjjbecker]

Not many understand this or achieve it and hence claim the classics are hiding secret teachings... it really is quite literal.

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

 

Come, come...

 

"...there is the what to be aware of. need a teacher to tell you that.

 

How far would your own understanding of the classics be without the guidance of your teacher? Those are his words I am quoting, by the way, taken from the gong thread and directly related to what is being discussed here.

 

The classics might well be 'quite literal', but without the 'oral tradition' that is part of taijiquan, they would be largely useless.

 

Such writings have always been a guide for initiates, be it in taijiquan, the Japanese koryu or any esoteric school. They have always been written in a manner that, while being 'quite literal' to the initiate, don't give away anything useful to the uninitiated.

 

From the Song of the Thirteen Postures or Tactics

 

"To go through the gate and be led along the path oral instruction is necessary".

 

Best,

 

Mike

[mouse]

Come, come...

How far would your own understanding of the classics be without the guidance of your teacher? Those are his words I am quoting, by the way, taken from the gong thread and directly related to what is being discussed here.

 

The classics might well be 'quite literal', but without the 'oral tradition' that is part of taijiquan, they would be largely useless.

 

Such writings have always been a guide for initiates, be it in taijiquan, the Japanese koryu or any esoteric school. They have always been written in a manner that, while being 'quite literal' to the initiate, don't give away anything useful to the uninitiated.

 

From the Song of the Thirteen Postures or Tactics

 

"To go through the gate and be led along the path oral instruction is necessary".

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

Mike,

 

My practice has certainly been shaped and influenced greatly by my respected teachers. I have not claimed otherwise.

 

mouse

[mjjbecker]

Mike,

 

My practice has certainly been shaped and influenced greatly by my respected teachers.

 

mouse

 

Exactly what I said.

 

 

Thank you for conceding the point.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[gendao]

"Shawn" (Baek Sang-heon/백상헌)

.

Fajin is the way power is developed in taichi by use of the Dantien, or power zone.

Shawn is a physical therapist and a independent martial arts practitioner. He lives, works and teaches in South-Korea. He practices Chen style Taichi more than 15 years. I took admission to teach from the 21th transmission master from the Chen villiage in 6 years ago.

 

Shawn's teacher is Chen Xiaoxing's first foreign transmission master. He studied under and continues to learn from both Chen Xiaoxing and Chen Bing.

Edited November 24, 2013 by vortex

[ChiDragon]

It says Yang style Tai Ji(楊家太極拳) at the right side on his wall. And Karate(空手道) on the left. It seems, to me, that his teaching is the combination of both styles. BTW he is Korean.

Edited November 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I would like to mention that in Karate initially requires lots of power to give it a good blow with the arms. Indeed, one who practice Tai Ji, like the guy in the video, will develop lots of Jin(勁) to enhance his ability in Karate. I think you all can see how powerful his punches are in his demo.

[dwai]

i am sure there are many taiji players on this list. when someone teaches an art we expect them to have a solid understanding of how to apply it. yet many teachers seem to have no application abilities and no fa jin at all. even worse some claim fa jin is a whippy strike (explosive power) yet what they are doing is poor kung fu and nothing more. what a pity... so i ask how do people have faith in these teachers? and on what reasoning do they think that it is taiji they are being taught?

 

Adam

Only way to know is to experience Fa Jing issued by the teacher. Doesn't have to be very intense, but enough to know that something other than physical force is being applied. Fa Jing (as I've been taught) is a waveform, pulse and has different vibratory properties - resulting in long power, cold power, short power, etc. The only physical component is the frame of the issuer and the body of the recipient.

[chenplayer]

I wanted to chime in here for a bit. If you guys ever get a chance you should head over to rum soaked fists awesome forum. Anyways there was a thread (will look up if I have the time), explaining that the reason the yang's became famous as fighters is because of the gong training they did. It was said that before they even got to learn the form(they as in sons of Yang lu chan), they spent years doing the gong practice to develop as mjjbecker puts it well, body awareness and of course the required strength. The soft has to go with hard and vice versa. Everybody wants to fajin and fling people with super softness but the truth of the matter is gong training is required, lots and lots of it and it all physical and hard. You need to build your tendons and fascia to become steel wrapped in cotton. There is no escaping hard work.