A Gathering of Immortals

[Stigweard]

This topic deserves its own thread:

 

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I think one of the greatest achievements in the West is the scientific theory and academic community. Not everyone agrees but research is explained, refuted, and exchanged openly. Could such a community exist between cultivators too? Of different traditions and religions for the good of all humanity?

 

That's not rhetorical, I'm asking, do you think it could be done?

 

Song Yongdao

 

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It can be done! But it will take people who are there to mold the forum, cut out the arrogant participators, and go forward with the principles of Cultivation only. To sit down, and discuss the functions of the methods of each other's tradition, respect each other for their attainment of wisdom through their methods, and work together to expound those teachings.

 

A school perhaps, of a whole mix of cultivators, respecting each other, and teaching that as a foundation for cultivation. A place where the method is investigated, and then cultivated, and finally taught to eager students who are not chosen because of how much money they have, but because of their humility, honesty, and good roots. No favoritism what so ever.

 

Basically, It would be an awesome time to gather well cultivated ones in one room, discuss and record the whole entire explanations of their methods. What a grand thing.

 

Lin Ai Wei

 

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Imagine, the opportunity for masters to study each other's systems, discuss methods, and collaborate. I know many masters have the ability to simply watch a practice and immediately understand its purpose. Put these men and women together to study how their methods are alike and differ and I imagine you could develop a very refined system of cultivation.

 

You bring up a very good point that many different methods exist because many different minds exist. Certainly there is no one way best for everyone. This is where you could also introduce the traditional medical and psychological systems to help guide who should be practicing which methods when. Different bodies and minds have different needs, these differences too could be investigated and cataloged. I know Ayurvedic and TCM are both used to diagnose constitutional conditions and temporary disease patterns. Using these diagnostic techniques cultivation could be further tailored to suit each individual.

 

Use western material diagnostics to study the course of cultivation and within a generation we could have the start of a new tradition of human spiritual technology.

 

When would you like to start?

 

Song Yongdao

 

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Online Forum? or meeting in person forum?

 

HAHA

 

I would love to work on something to this massive degree. A room filled with cultivators who are not holding their chins higher than their nose...hahaha Who don't have more heads than Medusa... hahaha

 

Seriously though, there will need to be guidelines to assure no one starts reciting mantras to kill each

other just to show how great they are.

 

Let's develop it, slow, to gather those who can be a board of such, just to make sure no one chops off heads during discussions. No hierarchy over all, just a recognition of conduct, morality and virtue throughout the forum.

 

Maybe just an online forum first, and then in the future, a great big banquet! hahaha

 

What do you think... What do you all Think? We should gather a poll, work some guidelines for conduct, and morality. Patience needed for total explanation in detail the workings of each of the methods presented.

 

Ideas....

 

Peace,

Lin

 

P.S.- I don't get excited really, but I am very excited about this project

 

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My suggestion is that we can aim initially for a one-off convention/forum, gathering together those masters who are recognised as being both achieved and reputable in their field.

 

LOL ... the first inaugral TaoBums Convention.

 

Count me in ... I have plenty I would love to give to this project. Get your ideas flowing folks.

[松永道]

Thanks Stigweard.

 

I guess the way I see it, we would first need a plan. Would a 10 year plan be too industrious? And then we'd need a place to develop the plan. My talents don't extend to web design but a simple website and forum would suffice I think.

 

And in the plan we'd have to discuss location, funding, etc, etc. If we can first make it clear how this can be accomplished then we can start enacting it. It may be impossible to get many older, more traditional masters to participate, but if even we can just get some sincere teachers like Lin Ai Wei, Santiago, Mjjbecker and others (already masters in their own right and expectedly more so in 10 years time), together in one place to document, share and compare their cultivation methods, the results could be remarkable.

 

More ideas to come...

[Stigweard]

Thanks Stigweard.

 

I guess the way I see it, we would first need a plan. Would a 10 year plan be too industrious? And then we'd need a place to develop the plan. My talents don't extend to web design but a simple website and forum would suffice I think.

 

And in the plan we'd have to discuss location, funding, etc, etc. If we can first make it clear how this can be accomplished then we can start enacting it. It may be impossible to get many older, more traditional masters to participate, but if even we can just get some sincere teachers like Lin Ai Wei, Santiago, Mjjbecker and others (already masters in their own right and expectedly more so in 10 years time), together in one place to document, share and compare their cultivation methods, the results could be remarkable.

 

More ideas to come...

 

Well we already have a forum No point recreating the wheel IMO ... unless of course necessity dictates otherwise.

 

One of my deepest dreams is to be a part of the establishment of the type of 'mystery school' that this is sounding like. And interestingly enough I have mapped out my version over a 10 year plan

 

Because I have had some experience in event management etc I always had it in mind that you could kick things off with an annual or bi-annual convention of sorts, accompanied by smaller conventions that occur more regularly (i.e. every 6-months or so) that tour through major centres.

 

Of course all lecture notes, vids, demos, transcripts would be made fully available through a website like you suggested.

 

Then, over time with the right amount of interest, support and of course funds, we can consolidate our efforts into the creation of a permanent institute/university that keeps things going on a permanent basis.

 

But little steps first.

 

Let's start perhaps with creating a 'Vision Statement' for such an affiliation of cultivators.

 

Suggestions??

[mat black]

 

Suggestions??

 

How about conducting it somewhere neutral and really far away, say, Australia?

[Stigweard]

How about conducting it somewhere neutral and really far away, say, Australia?

 

 

YAY! You are all coming to my place for tea

 

If that was a serious suggestion then you have my vote!

[Stigweard]

Actually I guess seeing that the majority of members here are probably in the US then thats where any proposed convention should occur.

 

If such convention was held over say 3 days what would you like to see happen?

[mjjbecker]

Thanks Stigweard.

 

I guess the way I see it, we would first need a plan. Would a 10 year plan be too industrious? And then we'd need a place to develop the plan. My talents don't extend to web design but a simple website and forum would suffice I think.

 

And in the plan we'd have to discuss location, funding, etc, etc. If we can first make it clear how this can be accomplished then we can start enacting it. It may be impossible to get many older, more traditional masters to participate, but if even we can just get some sincere teachers like Lin Ai Wei, Santiago, Mjjbecker and others (already masters in their own right and expectedly more so in 10 years time), together in one place to document, share and compare their cultivation methods, the results could be remarkable.

 

More ideas to come...

 

You are very kind, but I am only a novice. I don't say this with any kind of false humility. I have taught martial arts in the past. I stopped when I realised how much-and what a BIG 'how much'-I still had to learn. Meeting John Chang, Kostas, my current teacher. Experiencing real knowledge and not just its shell.

 

There are a lot of people on this forum with a lot of experience, knowledge and wisdom to share. I've learned, and continue to learn and gain insight, from what has been shared.

 

There are people who have done research and continue to do so out there. For example, the famous work of Herbert Benson.

 

There is LOT of information out there, and the first step would arguably be to collect and collate it. Basically, form a kind of research 'library'. This would of course have to include the work done by Chinese researchers and masters.

 

So, you would need a librarian, maybe several, and of course some capable translators. Establishing contact with some of the Chinese universities and research bodies would be important also.

 

There is a few years worth of work, before even considering any 'original' research.

 

So, some pointers which I hope can be of some help.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[Vajrasattva]

Thanks Stigweard.

 

I guess the way I see it, we would first need a plan. Would a 10 year plan be too industrious? And then we'd need a place to develop the plan. My talents don't extend to web design but a simple website and forum would suffice I think.

 

And in the plan we'd have to discuss location, funding, etc, etc. If we can first make it clear how this can be accomplished then we can start enacting it. It may be impossible to get many older, more traditional masters to participate, but if even we can just get some sincere teachers like Lin Ai Wei, Santiago, Mjjbecker and others (already masters in their own right and expectedly more so in 10 years time), together in one place to document, share and compare their cultivation methods, the results could be remarkable.

 

More ideas to come...

 

thank you dear sir : ) I am willing to help with what ever i can.

I have not been to china nor anywhere in the far east but i certain'y believe what you need is in your own backyard and in your body already just waiting to be unlocked.

Sounds like this might become a good thing. Keep me posted.

best wishes

 

Santi

[松永道]

 

There is LOT of information out there, and the first step would arguably be to collect and collate it. Basically, form a kind of research 'library'. This would of course have to include the work done by Chinese researchers and masters.

 

So, you would need a librarian, maybe several, and of course some capable translators. Establishing contact with some of the Chinese universities and research bodies would be important also.

 

 

Good idea. Wudangquan is starting a Dao library website if I'm not mistaken, perhaps that's a good start.

[orb]

Actually I guess seeing that the majority of members here are probably in the US then thats where any proposed convention should occur.

 

If such convention was held over say 3 days what would you like to see happen?

 

 

Why not making it in more then one place. Let's say first start in US and let the americans host it then a sequel in Australia and people in Australia arrange for everything and so on ... kinda like the olimpic games ....

[Stigweard]

Why not making it in more then one place. Let's say first start in US and let the americans host it then a sequel in Australia and people in Australia arrange for everything and so on ... kinda like the olimpic games ....

 

Yep I'm good with that.

[林愛偉]

This is a good start...a drawing board so to say.

 

Foundation is the most important in such a project. We are gathering people of cultivation. This not only opens the doors to an unusual happening, but opens the doors to demons of all shapes and sizes as well.

They will come in as big egos, sharp tongues, cultivated sarcasm and even hold some valuable wisdom which in their hands is twisted to get people hooked.

 

We will need eyes to recognize them, ears to hear for their deviant teachings, and the patience to observe it all, compassion to not get angry and wisdom to once recognized sweep the dust and take out the trash.

 

I am one for strict guidelines in this matter, and during our times I feel it is ever more needed. Conduct is first and foremost when addressing people, welcoming others and showing respect for those who are cultivators regardless of their "level" of cultivation.

 

Of course, wisdom is first to be recognized as a determining factor. But, we have to lay down , first, by what manner one can recognize the wisdom of true teachings...

 

If someone starts saying they are, and we are Buddhas already, I will take out my sword and chop their heads, all of them, off! In today's world, that is a red light screaming "I am deluded, help!"

 

It will take a long time to lay the groundwork, sift through standards and regulations for conduct, or it will just turn out like the modern day martial arts tournaments, and online forums ...bitch fest central with a touch, a big touch, of ego.

 

As people who will be working on such a project, it is at the utmost imperitive that we ourselves maintain as high as possible, levels of conduct, cultivated virtue and attainment of good merits. Without them, we will not have the ability to maintain and host such a meeting...

 

3 days wouldn't be enough at all. I'm thinking an all out explanation of one's methods, which explain details on why they believe it is a good method. After wards, lectures on the methods in a class setting for those who resonate with those teachings. Then a gathering again of the teachers to discuss how to maintain their teachings, in written record, without change. Gathering of those students who attended selected lectures, discussing the states they attained, and have the teachers of those methods explain the ins and outs of those states.

 

All must agree on one thing thoguh, to maintain clarity of mind and protection from demonic behavior, delusion...that all states are only stepping stones to attain higher levels of concentration which in turn assist one in ending their deluded thinking and eventually attain realization of their Original Nature.

 

Because, truthfully, gaining states leaves potential confusion to manifest..seeking for the states, maintaining in the states, and thus getting stuck there.

 

It is such a thin line we will walk in putting together this kind of thing. I pray to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to guide us in making proper and wise decisions, and bring in their light along this path to further guide us to be protected by Dharma Protectors Unnumbered. This task is not easy to say and not easy to do in our time.

 

It will bring in no profits, and if it did, those profits should only be towards developing further such a place of cultivation and all its expenses...even if it means housing the teachers, and stewards of a place of that magnitude, and their families...haha a place of agriculture to eat wholesome foods and steards of the land to grow the food, cook it...

 

Everyone has a part to play in the upkeep. This was my dream, in part, of a cultivation school. In such, Jing Xin Yuan would house the Buddhas Teachings...but not closed to anyone else. I alsways had a dream of a cultivation school, where traditions were housed on the same grounds, with their respective places, or temples, and then a meeting ground for those elders to gather discuss the future care-taking of this world and work together in their traditions to empower wisdom, patience, compassion..which results in overall peace and enlightenment.

 

So much to work on..little steps to take.

 

Oh, and let's not call it Gathering of the Immortals...it screams brainwashed commercialism, especially in our already "New Agey" mentality...it just reeks of buy me, sell me all over it..lol Yeah, I'm crazy..

 

But it does sound kewl(cool) though, has a big ring to it, but I'm sure something a bit more..subtle

Peace,

Lin

Edited October 2, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Stigweard]

OK let's expand on this. Take what's written below and add/edit as appropriate. A collective effort is going to be required if this is going to work for the collective good.

 

Code of Conduct:

 

~ Wisdom is first to be recognized as a determining factor.

~ If someone starts saying they are, and we are Buddhas already, I will take out my sword and chop their heads, all of them, off! In today's world, that is a red light screaming "I am deluded, help!" ... (well at least we have found a job for Lin )

~ We ourselves maintain as high as possible, levels of conduct, cultivated virtue and attainment of good merits.

~ To maintain clarity of mind and protection from demonic behavior, delusion...that all states are only stepping stones to attain higher levels of concentration which in turn assist one in ending their deluded thinking and eventually attain realization of their Original Nature. Because, truthfully, gaining states leaves potential confusion to manifest..seeking for the states, maintaining in the states, and thus getting stuck there.

 

Convention Concept:

 

~ 3 days wouldn't be enough at all. I'm thinking an all out explanation of one's methods, which explain details on why they believe it is a good method. After wards, lectures on the methods in a class setting for those who resonate with those teachings. Then a gathering again of the teachers to discuss how to maintain their teachings, in written record, without change. Gathering of those students who attended selected lectures, discussing the states they attained, and have the teachers of those methods explain the ins and outs of those states.

 

~ It will bring in no profits (agreed but it will require funds, I am ready to help in this regard), and if it did, those profits should only be towards developing further such a place of cultivation and all its expenses...even if it means housing the teachers, and stewards of a place of that magnitude, and their families...haha a place of argriculture to eat wholesome foods and steards of the land to grow the food, cook it...

 

~ Everyone has a part to play in the upkeep. (Absolutely)

 

~ This was my dream, in part, of a cultivation school. In such, Jing Xin Yuan would house the Buddhas Teachings...but not closed to anyone else. I alsways had a dream of a cultivation school, where traditions were housed on the same grounds, with their respective places, or temples, and then a meeting ground for those elders to gather discuss the future care-taking of this world and work together in their traditions to empower wisdom, patience, compassion..which results in overall peace and enlightenment.

 

(It would seem the Universal Consciousness is revealling its hand here because I have dreamt this so vividly I have stood in awe in the court yard of such a complex and gazed upon each temple and watched the students going about their day)

[林愛偉]

OK let's expand on this. Take what's written below and add/edit as appropriate. A collective effort is going to be required if this is going to work for the collective good.

 

Code of Conduct:

 

~ Wisdom is first to be recognized as a determining factor.

~ If someone starts saying they are, and we are Buddhas already, I will take out my sword and chop their heads, all of them, off! In today's world, that is a red light screaming "I am deluded, help!" ... (well at least we have found a job for Lin )

~ We ourselves maintain as high as possible, levels of conduct, cultivated virtue and attainment of good merits.

~ To maintain clarity of mind and protection from demonic behavior, delusion...that all states are only stepping stones to attain higher levels of concentration which in turn assist one in ending their deluded thinking and eventually attain realization of their Original Nature. Because, truthfully, gaining states leaves potential confusion to manifest..seeking for the states, maintaining in the states, and thus getting stuck there.

 

Convention Concept:

 

~ 3 days wouldn't be enough at all. I'm thinking an all out explanation of one's methods, which explain details on why they believe it is a good method. After wards, lectures on the methods in a class setting for those who resonate with those teachings. Then a gathering again of the teachers to discuss how to maintain their teachings, in written record, without change. Gathering of those students who attended selected lectures, discussing the states they attained, and have the teachers of those methods explain the ins and outs of those states.

 

~ It will bring in no profits (agreed but it will require funds, I am ready to help in this regard), and if it did, those profits should only be towards developing further such a place of cultivation and all its expenses...even if it means housing the teachers, and stewards of a place of that magnitude, and their families...haha a place of argriculture to eat wholesome foods and steards of the land to grow the food, cook it...

 

~ Everyone has a part to play in the upkeep. (Absolutely)

 

~ This was my dream, in part, of a cultivation school. In such, Jing Xin Yuan would house the Buddhas Teachings...but not closed to anyone else. I always had a dream of a cultivation school, where traditions were housed on the same grounds, with their respective places, or temples, and then a meeting ground for those elders to gather discuss the future care-taking of this world and work together in their traditions to empower wisdom, patience, compassion..which results in overall peace and enlightenment.

 

(It would seem the Universal Consciousness is revealling its hand here because I have dreamt this so vividly I have stood in awe in the court yard of such a complex and gazed upon each temple and watched the students going about their day)

 

So thorough you are! >>bows<<

I'm sure many of us here dreamt of a place like this. I, since age 11 when I vowed to do this work. I'm 28 now.

 

The "not making profits" meant that those involved will probably not make it rich of off this, its not a business venture persay... Basically a big non-profit with its funds and income respectively. Housing for those involved on the land built upon...Big work?

 

I have started saving as of this moment. I just made an evelope where I put in $20 bucks to the project..haha every week, what my patients give me, I'll take a cut from that and put it in the envelope.

Partial donations I get for Jing Xin Yuan will go in the envelope too, for Jing Xin Yuan will be there in the mix a Big soup we are stewing...

 

Peace,

Lin

[Stigweard]

 

I have started saving as of this moment. I just made an evelope where I put in $20 bucks to the project..haha every week, what my patients give me, I'll take a cut from that and put it in the envelope.

Partial donations I get for Jing Xin Yuan will go in the envelope too, for Jing Xin Yuan will be there in the mix a Big soup we are stewing...

 

Peace,

Lin

 

 

Right you are ... I am doing the same. There is something else I have in mind but all things in due course.

[林愛偉]

Right you are ... I am doing the same. There is something else I have in mind but all things in due course.

 

 

Yes, all things in due course. Now its laying down the groundwork; we have no place persay,

and I am still in the process of looking at land upstate New York. I had hints at the old "Dao Mountain".

Of course, I would renovate that place form its previous energetic influence, and get things moving,..but I also heard they are renting it to people.

 

What I have in mind is literal land that we can develop on, make temples of cultivation, housing for those involved and students, cafeteria. Make it non-profit, we will need grant writers to ask for government grants. If we get an address, we will make it a non-profit...a big non-profit...but first...

 

we can start small, with , like you said , 3 day lecture on introducing the idea, gathering a few teachers with their methods and teaching a bit here and there.

 

Let's see what Song Yong Dao, Vajrasattva, and those who want to be involved in this development, think. Even in the beginning, we need a guideline to keep conduct in check..respectful and welcoming, loving and compassionate..but no fuzzy, superficial faces and hugs..hahaha

 

Peace,

Lin

[Stigweard]

"Make it non-profit, we will need grant writers to ask for government grants. If we get an address, we will make it a non-profit...a big non-profit...but first..."

 

 

There is a better way of doing this rather then putting out your hand to governments for grants. Sponsors have an annoying tendancy to want a slice of the action through either having their name on it or by trying to dictate the process. Again all things in due time.

 

"What I have in mind is literal land that we can develop on, make temples of cultivation, housing for those involved and students, cafeteria.?

 

Sure sure land is good (well essential really in the long term) but let's not create such a big goal that we don't get anything done. The most important thing with project planning is to start immediately in the direction of the goal. So, as you said, "we can start small, with perhaps the 3 day lecture on introducing the idea, gathering a few teachers with their methods and teaching a bit here and there."

 

One of my 'pasttimes' is being motivational speaker. Here is a simple process for us to work through.

 

We know our 'big goal' in general details:

 

"Land that we can develop on, make temples of cultivation, housing for those involved and students, cafeteria etc"

 

Let's get that picture crystal clear to start with. Please I invite you to contribute. Simply take the following vision statement (which is an adaptation of my own goal fused with Lin's) and edit it in the way you wish. By reframing it over and over amongst ourselves we will reach a concesus. So this is step 1:

 

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"By 2018 we have acquired, through self-sufficient means, at least 100 acres of fertile land and have constructed temples of cultivation, education and arts facilities, housing for teachers, students, and community members, and have also established the means for communal sufficiency in the form of permaculture farming, commercial ventures (eg. cafeteria, grocery store, relevant small business etc.) and light industrial ventures that adhere to ecological and right livelihood practices."

 

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Your turn ... let's do it!

[Aetherous]

~ Wisdom is first to be recognized as a determining factor.

 

Who is going to decide who is wise and who isn't? Someone who claims they're wise enough to recognize wisdom? Is that person really wise, or do they just think they know something?

 

Nothing personal, but I don't really see eye to eye with you guys. I tend to think that this is all very premature. Like: keep going for a while longer with your practices before getting caught up in this stuff.

 

Wanting to establish a mystery school where you can decide what's worthy or unworthy of being approved...that can be a huge distraction from the path! Besides distracting many other people with your possibly false ideas.

 

~ If someone starts saying they are, and we are Buddhas already, I will take out my sword and chop their heads, all of them, off! In today's world, that is a red light screaming "I am deluded, help!" ... (well at least we have found a job for Lin laugh.gif )

 

Stig, no offense at all meant to you personally, and I don't know you, but:

 

In this respect you should cut off your own head. Wanting to create a cultivation society where you decide what different traditions are worthy or not is quite deluded.

 

The glimmer of hope here is that you guys are wanting to do it to promote the truth and goodness in different traditions...but it doesn't seem to me that anyone here is really ready to do that. We would truly need an actual Buddha to start this up, for me to support such an organization.

 

~ We ourselves maintain as high as possible, levels of conduct, cultivated virtue and attainment of good merits.

 

Sounds good.

 

~ To maintain clarity of mind and protection from demonic behavior, delusion...that all states are only stepping stones to attain higher levels of concentration which in turn assist one in ending their deluded thinking and eventually attain realization of their Original Nature. Because, truthfully, gaining states leaves potential confusion to manifest..seeking for the states, maintaining in the states, and thus getting stuck there.

 

Is the realization of one's Original Nature not another state? How could you tell the difference?

[Stigweard]

Heya Scotty,

 

I appreciate that you have interest enough in this process to make a comment ... good for you! The more worthy perspectives we can the more wholesome, balanced and beneficial it will become.

 

Can I request, however, that all criticisms are made constructively. Meaning that it is great that you have made a counter point but you have denied us your personal wisdom by not adding how we can avoid the very pitfalls you have so accurately identified.

 

Another point is that we really need to make sure the facts we are arguing are correct because at no stage in this thread has there been even the remotest insinuation that we are "Wanting to establish a mystery school where you can decide what's worthy or unworthy of being approved"

 

Throwing curve balls at the process like this will only drag the process down into unnecessary verbatim.

 

I really do appreciate your comments, please don't deny us of your personal perspectives. Keep it coming.

 

So another Code of Conduct has been revealed:

 

~ Make all criticism constructive, accompanying counter points with suggestions for improvement.

 

Good for you Scotty ... Cheers!

[Aetherous]

Stigweard,

 

I really wasn't trying to be offensive...just giving my honest (yet harsh) view that perhaps it's not yet time to lead. I truly meant it to be constructive...not to drag anyone down.

 

And I wasn't just referring to you, but to the others who have been involved as well. Just talking to you since you seem to be the main organizer or at least the person most excited about this idea.

 

Meaning that it is great that you have made a counter point but you have denied us your personal wisdom by not adding how we can avoid the very pitfalls you have so accurately identified.

 

My personal wisdom: practice more, engage in delusion less. Delusion being: establishing a committee or school or a big melting pot temple area. That's just ego stuff. So to not engage in delusion would be to just drop the idea altogether...or at least to keep an open mind regarding people's claims (talking about the mythbusting stuff) while keeping the idea going. And staying humble in the process.

 

Another point is that we really need to make sure the facts we are arguing are correct because at no stage in this thread has there been even the remotest insinuation that we are "Wanting to establish a mystery school where you can decide what's worthy or unworthy of being approved"

 

I got that impression from this post of yours in this thread:

 

One of my deepest dreams is to be a part of the establishment of the type of 'mystery school' that this is sounding like. And interestingly enough I have mapped out my version over a 10 year plan wink.gif

 

And in the topic you posted in the lobby:

 

I applaud the suggested establishment of an international forum of authentic Masters. But maybe we should also compose a "myth busting" protocol to confirm or bust claims of 'special abilities' or spiritual ascendancy. Then with this 'filter' we can credibly post a Charter of Authenticity to serve both the integrity of our own cultivation and also to create the foundation of greater credibility for our chosen traditions within our own communities.

 

I assume you were talking about the same thing there as in this thread.

 

So I guess I am just putting the questions out there in hopes to inspire people in the right direction regarding this idea:

 

1) Do you have what it takes to know what's actually true and false? To be an effective mythbuster, and not just "myth bust" based on false opinions that you may have?

2) Are you sure this plan isn't just another distraction from your own cultivation?

3) Are you cultivated enough to be a leader of a judgemental organization, so that it doesn't affect your own cultivation?

4) Are you sure enough about where you're going on your path, that you know how to guide people in the right direction?

5) Really? Are you really sure?

[林愛偉]

Who is going to decide who is wise and who isn't? Someone who claims they're wise enough to recognize wisdom? Is that person really wise, or do they just think they know something?

 

Its unfortunate that we have this discussion in two threads, partially. This is where egos get upset about who is wiser than another. This is not about the "I am am wiser" pedestal. It is about the teachings that are expounded being in accord with teachings of wholesome education. Maybe there are people out there that have the eyes to tell what is and isn't wholesome... Does it have to be someone from the Taobums...? I use the Buddha Dharma to see the truth of something. Other people use other methods... but in truth, wholesomeness is wholesomeness regardless of its package.

 

Nothing personal, but I don't really see eye to eye with you guys. I tend to think that this is all very premature. Like: keep going for a while longer with your practices before getting caught up in this stuff.

 

What's premature?

 

Wanting to establish a mystery school where you can decide what's worthy or unworthy of being approved...that can be a huge distraction from the path! Besides distracting many other people with your possibly false ideas.

Stig, no offense at all meant to you personally, and I don't know you, but:

 

In this respect you should cut off your own head. Wanting to create a cultivation society where you decide what different traditions are worthy or not is quite deluded.

 

No. Its not a mystery school, and no one is deciding what's worthy and not. What is being established is a platform for wholesome cultivation. It is a shame that some people can't recognize wholesome cultivation, and those that do are looked down upon as being egotistical and conclusive.

 

The glimmer of hope here is that you guys are wanting to do it to promote the truth and goodness in different traditions...but it doesn't seem to me that anyone here is really ready to do that. We would truly need an actual Buddha to start this up, for me to support such an organization.

Sounds good.

Is the realization of one's Original Nature not another state? How could you tell the difference?

 

This is why it was stated that because we are going to lay down this platform, our virtue and conduct must be pure. We must cultivate even more diligently. What I am saying is for people to realize Buddhahood! Act like the Buddhas, think like them, sit like them, eat like them, talk like them, meditate like them.. these seeds eventually result in its respective outcome...just don't say "I am a Buddha"....

 

Realization of one's Original Nature is amazingly a slap in the head! One should be able to tell what they have awakened to. It becomes quite apparent, the defiled state, and the state of Non-Production.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited October 3, 2008 by 林愛偉

[wudangquan]

Hi,

 

As mentioned I am working on an audio/video/text library of sorts at http://www.TaoistTraining.comb

 

I kind of envision it to be something more in the future, hopefully.

 

To be totally frank I am relatively incompetent and not so dependable as far as practical things go, however.

 

If people wanted to use any of the material I am recording (audio, video [much more video in the near future], etc.) that is fine with me.

 

If you use it externally from the site maybe a link back to me would be appreciated, but I mean . . . That stuff and the Tao in general is certainly not exclusive to me. I would just appreciate a recognition of my time if someone uses it. But you guys can feel free to burn any of the stuff I record to cd/mp3 players, pass it around and do whatever you want with it. I'm just more interested in things being accessible to someone who was where I was at a point earlier in my life, and while I am certainly poor by western standards I have a place to live, food to eat, good teachers and an awesome woman, so I am not after anyones money right now.

 

I will try to keep the site up indefinitely, and will be adding more stuff to it weekly. Right now I'm a bit behind on th audio that I'm supposed to be putting up because my girlfriend took a train for 32+ hours from Kunming to Wudang/Shiyan to visit me for Golden week, and I'm sure nobody would hold my priorities against me.

 

Anyway I don't want to co-opt anybody's anything. I also don't want to give much of a platform for any self professed messiah's or kooks. I think . . . Clearly I try to be open about the fact that I'm not enlightened myself, and don't know anything myself, but I take a very orthodox kind of approach to things (I try and may do some unorthodox things myself [3 cheers for mail order DMT in China! haha] but wouldn't promote them publically unless I WERE enlightened or something), and am not really up for - well I don't want to be held responsible or karmically culpable for being part of anything that leads to other peoples disasters.

 

What everybody has said seems like a cool idea, though.

 

As a matter of fact I can contribute something, though. You can hang out on my site and add stuff to it if you want. *OR* - if some responsible party who everyone respects is interested and creates an account with godaddy I am willing to push any of the following domains which I own over for the use in a project like this (I just can't handle a seperate project at the moment but think it sounds like a nice idea).

 

Here's a list of the domains from which I can donate one (hey it's $9 but some of them are kind of cool names!):

 

 

AnalysisParalysis.org (Kind of a joke, but it could degenerate into this!)

Lao-Zi.net

Popullution.com (I really should develop this at some point, but . . . .)

Sun-Zi.net

TaoistMeditation.Net

TaoistMonk.com

TaoistQigong.net

TaoistTemple.net

TaoistTemple.org

TaoYin.info

Zhuang-Zi.net

 

I also own:

The .org/.net/.info tld's for Popullution

AnalysisParalysis.Info

BookOfFiveRings.Org

ExtinctByInstinct.Com

KongFuZi.info

KongMenQuan.com/.info

Wudang.TV

WudangQuan.com

WudangMountain.com

WudangShan.info

YumenQuan.info

etc ...

 

From the above list if the group SERIOUSLY wants one, and is SERIOUS about really doing the work to develop something - you can of course have it for free if you promise to keep it non-commercial.

 

For the other ones - it's kind of my hobby.

 

If there's something else I can do to help please let me know and if I am able to commit I will.

 

I had been planning on doing something kind of similar to this at some point, actually. I am here in China, and get around to some of the more famous places, so I have a pretty good idea of alot of people who are coming over for training, what sort of training they're doing, etc. and thought about doing a push for a temple with Western Daoshi in a few years . . . But that's a few years off.

 

Oh and I shaved off the beard and got a haircut for my gf's visit

http://picasaweb.google.com/iamjon75/Golde...ey=QdNuuZWK590#

Edited October 3, 2008 by wudangquan

[Aetherous]

Lin,

 

Its unfortunate that we have this discussion in two threads, partially. This is where egos get upset about who is wiser than another. This is not about the "I am am wiser" pedestal. It is about the teachings that are expounded being in accord with teachings of wholesome education. Maybe there are people out there that have the eyes to tell what is and isn't wholesome... Does it have to be someone from the Taobums...? I use the Buddha Dharma to see the truth of something. Other people use other methods... but in truth, wholesomeness is wholesomeness regardless of its package.

 

It'd help if you defined what "teachings of wholesome education" are and what the goal of those teachings is.

 

But I think my main point has to do with what you said: "maybe there are people out there that have the eyes to tell what is and isn't wholesome". My point is: maybe there aren't.

 

Most, if not all people tend to be imperfect and biased. They might not see the brilliance of another tradition, because of that. So unless they consciously keep a very open mind and just let it be a free for all, kind of like this very website, there WILL be the "I am wiser pedestal" thing happening. And who can really say with 100% certainty they will be able to maintain something like that? Who would want to?

 

I don't think that's the real goal you guys are looking at achieving, is it?

 

What's premature?

 

Teaching and leading without really having attained much.

 

No. Its not a mystery school, and no one is deciding what's worthy and not. What is being established is a platform for wholesome cultivation. It is a shame that some people can't recognize wholesome cultivation, and those that do are looked down upon as being egotistical and conclusive.

 

No one will decide what's worthy or not? Okay...that's fine then! So it will be like this website, taobums, but happening in real life instead of just online? That would be great in my opinion.

 

I was really under the impression that this would be a board of designated people who attempt to weed out teachings which they deem as not "wholesome".

 

This is why it was stated that because we are going to lay down this platform, our virtue and conduct must be pure. We must cultivate even more diligently. What I am saying is for people to realize Buddhahood! Act like the Buddhas, think like them, sit like them, eat like them, talk like them, meditate like them.. these seeds eventually result in its respective outcome...just don't say "I am a Buddha"....

 

That sounds great, except someone acting like Buddha doesn't have the wisdom and realization. They are far from it. And how does someone know what Buddha would act like? Anyway this is kind of unrelated to the topic at hand.

 

Realization of one's Original Nature is amazingly a slap in the head! One should be able to tell what they have awakened to. It becomes quite apparent, the defiled state, and the state of Non-Production.

 

Yes, one should be able to tell for themselves, but I was talking about how to recognize it in someone else. Because apparently you guys were going to declare that "all states are merely stepping stones", which can lead to a destruction of the goal itself: enlightenment. Then when actual Buddhas start popping up, they would be said to be liars and looked down upon by the "platform".

[林愛偉]

Most, if not all people tend to be imperfect and biased. They might not see the brilliance of another tradition, because of that. So unless they consciously keep a very open mind and just let it be a free for all, kind of like this very website, there WILL be the "I am wiser pedestal" thing happening. And who can really say with 100% certainty they will be able to maintain something like that? Who would want to?

 

My hope is people will not be biased. Maybe I do hold too high of vision..but that is what keeps me going.

Wholesome is that which does not advocate killing others, indulging in extreme sexual practices like sleeping with as many people as possible, stealing people's energy during sex, and using others to higher one's level of cultivation. Not harming others, not mentally hurting others as well...along these lines.

 

Yes, a free for all is good, but with direction, not a whole bunch of info thrown out there. Who would not want to try to do it? Its not about fame, but really clearing the mess that has become cultivation... in mainstream for the least.

 

 

Teaching and leading without really having attained much.

No one will decide what's worthy or not? Okay...that's fine then! So it will be like this website, taobums, but happening in real life instead of just online? That would be great in my opinion.

 

There was a thought for this..it will take more cultivation to maintain, and even attain the wisdom to lay the groundwork. The idea has manifested, there is some maturity in the creator of the idea's mind.. I believe that was Song Yong Dao.

 

What will be looked at is if the teachings hurt people and the cultivator.

 

I was really under the impression that this would be a board of designated people who attempt to weed out teachings which they deem as not "wholesome".

That sounds great, except someone acting like Buddha doesn't have the wisdom and realization. They are far from it. And how does someone know what Buddha would act like? Anyway this is kind of unrelated to the topic at hand.

 

 

Not a "They" that decide what they like, not a bureaucracy. One aspires to become a Buddha...if the road they take is indeed wholesome, they will be guided by the most purest of wisdom. I just hope that those who will take part in this work promote Patience, Compassion and Wisdom. By reading Sutras, one can get an idea of how the Buddha's manifest character as. Yet, by cultivating diligently, they will realize that mind...when the cultivating has matured.

 

Yes, one should be able to tell for themselves, but I was talking about how to recognize it in someone else. Because apparently you guys were going to declare that "all states are merely stepping stones", which can lead to a destruction of the goal itself: enlightenment. Then when actual Buddhas start popping up, they would be said to be liars and looked down upon by the "platform".

 

No, do not twist this teaching. It is not simple, but can be quite simple. Recognizing one is a Buddha, does not require one to give a pat on the shoulder and say, "Hey, you are a Buddha." It simply requires observation, and leaving them be. When a being attains Buddhahood, there will be signs... its not an easy task to attain, and any small attainment is nothing to jump and sing about. States are stepping stones...they are little check points on the path, but grasping, chasing for states is detrimental to one's cultivation.

 

The platform is not the people. Its the place where the teachings are said to reside, the upholding of the teachings. When someone attains small states, its good, if they know its good, fine, but if they say its great, and assume they are great sages, they are wrong.

 

Like I said before, I personally hold up all teachings to the mirror of the Buddha Dharma, and the Dharma utilized is the Shurangama Dharma. It is a Demon-Spotting Mirror and hated by many. So far, it has been right on point, even after the Buddha expounded the teachings in his time, and other Buddhas did the same in their time.

 

I would only support the Buddha's teachings. And basically, anything that benefits all living beings through the cultivation of Patience, Compassion and Wisdom is just the Buddha's teachings, even if it comes out of the mouth of Allah, Jesus, Mohammad, Ghandi, etc...

 

I do talk much, but this is good. Your questions are catalysts for deep and thorough explanations of the intent.

Once these are clear and laid out properly, then an open forum can be underway.

 

Mind you, there will not be several people sitting at a table saying "I like this guy, I like that one, I don't like him.. blah blah blah". It would be more of a gathering of the teacher's info, history, reading his material to gain a feel for what he/she stands for. If they are people who just read a book and decided they were great sages, or are people who have some cultivation under their belt, and would like to share something they feel may be of some benefit.

 

:-)

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited October 3, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Stigweard]

I really wasn't trying to be offensive...just giving my honest (yet harsh) view that perhaps it's not yet time to lead. I truly meant it to be constructive...not to drag anyone down.

 

Cheers again for your observations Scotty much appreciated. Since you are being harsh, I will attempt to likewise honest.

 

Haven't you yourself just now looked down upon this process based on your own platform of what you think is worthy or not and declared the suggestions put foward as unworthy?

 

Let us not enter the verbatim of superficial views of right and wrong.

 

You have concerns ... brilliant. Your voice is the conservative caution to balance out the optimism expressed so far. By stepping forth and presenting the 'Devil's Advocate' perspective you add much to our considerations. Helping us to weed out the 'delusions' and ego-centred perspectives.

 

Perhaps I went too far in including teachers/masters in my previous initiative to 'myth bust' claims of special abilities. I thank you for bringing this to my attention. You are right, it is a fools errand to try and assess the mountain's peaks whilst standing on the valley floor. Please forgive my previous presumptiousness and ignorance.

 

1) Do you have what it takes to know what's actually true and false? To be an effective mythbuster, and not just "myth bust" based on false opinions that you may have?

2) Are you sure this plan isn't just another distraction from your own cultivation?

3) Are you cultivated enough to be a leader of a judgemental organization, so that it doesn't affect your own cultivation?

4) Are you sure enough about where you're going on your path, that you know how to guide people in the right direction?

5) Really? Are you really sure?

 

These questions are valuable Scotty (except for the 'judgemental organization' statement ... this is not the intent) ... thank you for posting them. I trust that you also consider them carefully when making assertions of what is delusion and what is not.

 

In fact I have printed these questions up and stuck them to the wall so that I will reflect on them every day.

 

Thanks again Scotty ... your contribution has been truly valuable.