Why is payment necessary for learning the Tao?

[Li Jiong]

Thanks to all! You taught me a lot, it seems I'd better to pay you instead of to charge you.

Some asked me:"why are you so fortunate that you can get such a good teacher and get success on your cultivation?"

I answered:"that is because I am so foolish. About four years ago, when my teacher said it was necessary to give up your wealth first, I gave up 100,000CNY without any question, that was almost all my wealth that time."

I never mentioned this before, that is because I ensure none of you can do this as me, or as what Siddhartha Gautama did about 2,500 years ago. If any of you are able to give up all your wealth, I would like to teach you wholeheartedly and won't refer to money anymore.

[Stigweard]

Thanks to all! You taught me a lot, it seems I'd better to pay you instead of to charge you.

 

 

LOL what are friends for hey? Now where would you like me to send the invoice?

[wudangquan]

Just to play devils advocate and stir the pot (for no sake other than stirring the pot . . . Which is silly) . . .

 

How do you know that Li Jiong hasn't figured out that your financial status and ability to pay is indicative of your previous cultivation, and accrued De from previous lives, and is therefore a reliable indicator or at least a good filtering mechanism for people with low enlightenment quality?

Edited October 3, 2008 by wudangquan

[h.uriahr]

If you wish to teach for a living and support your family then all is well. I have a loving wife and child to attend to so I can see how charging can apply, for certain things anyway.

 

Just out of curiousity how many members are right around the young age of 20ish? In this modern day 20ish is still very immature and childish. My point, why speak on anything when you have no real experience with it?

[Li Jiong]

My teacher took the money, but he was not for himself, he has a very austere living all along, and does not need much money personally. He spend the money on virescence, he contracted waste mountain from the government, and planted trees and herbs there.

If the money I get go beyond my personally need, I will also spend the superfluous money on environmental protection.

[sheng zhen]

Payment is fine. But why lie about it? If my teacher needs money, that right there evokes my compassion. Even if they don't I want to pay them back. It's human nature to return a favor. These gifts are just a physical shell for the real sentiment. And I think it's beautiful. Because the truth is, you do pass such a spiritual threshold when you give from the heart. But this can't be requested from you. It has to come from you.

Wow, this comment should not drown in all other comments.

[billb]

Just to play devils advocate and stir the pot (for no sake other than stirring the pot . . . Which is silly) . . .

 

How do you know that Li Jiong hasn't figured out that your financial status and ability to pay is indicative of your previous cultivation, and accrued De from previous lives, and is therefore a reliable indicator or at least a good filtering mechanism for people with low enlightenment quality?

So are you saying that financial status is indicative of previous cultivation?

[Pietro]

If a teacher says that he wants you to pay because he needs money, he is telling the truth, and I think that if affordable you should pay him.

 

But if a teacher says that he wants you to pay because you need to give something to have something else, or for any other reason which is important for the student, but not for the teacher, then why is the teacher who have to receive that money. Can't you just burn the money, or give it to people who really need it.

 

By the way, burning the money has the effect of making money in the society more worth (lowering the inflation), so you are effectively giving your money to everybody in the society, just you are sharing it giving more to people who have more money.

 

So if you think that having money is a sign of spiritual superiority than burning money makes sense.

 

If you think this is BS, then donating the money is better.

 

Maybe you can find a cause where both you and your teacher feel the money would be well placed.

 

But I just don't get why a teacher would say, "I make you pay because you need to, and, ehm, as a side effect I get the money."

 

And, btw, when I teach I generally charge, too. Not for them, for me!

 

Edited for spelling mistake

Edited October 3, 2008 by Pietro

[Li Jiong]

If a teacher says that he wants you to pay because he needs money, he is telling the truth, and I think that if affordable you should pay him.

 

But if a teacher says that he wants you to pay because you need to give something to have something else, or for any other reason which is important for the student, but not for the teacher, then why is the teacher who have to receive that money. Can't you just burn the money, or give it to people who really need it.

 

By the way, burning the money has the effect of making money in the society more worth (lowering the inflation), so you are effectively giving your money to everybody in the society, just you are sharing it giving more to people who have more money.

 

So if you think that having money is a sign of spiritual superiority than burning money makes sense.

 

If you think this is BS, then donating the money is better.

 

Maybe you can find a cause where both you and your teacher feel the money would be well placed.

 

But I just don't get why a teacher would say, "I make you pay because you need to, and, ehm, as a side effect I get the money."

 

And, btw, when I teach I generally charge, too. Not for them, for me!

 

Edited for spelling mistake

Yes, from the just beginning, I always say I need money.

When I say "If any of you are able to give up all your wealth, I would like to teach you wholeheartedly and won't refer to money anymore." I donot mean you must give all your wealth to me, you can burn your money, you can donate all your wealth, you can also give it to me, any way you think it is good for humanity is OK.

[wudangquan]

So are you saying that financial status is indicative of previous cultivation?

 

No, not at all.

 

I'm not involved with Li Jiong, haven't bought his books, or met him.

 

What I was curious about is whether people think it's a possibility that there might be a reason (even a spiritually valid reason) that a person would set a barrier to entry based on financial abilities.

 

I'm not a preacher, am not preaching and tend to believe that most good teachers don't require so much money, or if they do it's only to help with your own attachment to it, but . . .

 

I'm open to the possibility that when doing mass market type of stuff, and not having the chance to meet your students, using new and emerging media, etc. that there are different criteria for evaluating the relative merit of lack thereof in a student.

 

That's all.

 

And I don't understand why $70 or whatever is that big of a deal. If you think it's worth it, than pay it. If you don't then the guy may be aggressively marketing, but he's not forcing anyone to do anything.

 

Also - I'm probably one of the poorest people on this forum, by any material standard, but I don't begrudge the guy doing whatever.

 

I haven't looked at or read his stuff so I can't say what I think of it . . .

 

But . . . Come to Wudang and see how you get charged $600/month to learn barrel rolls and pirrouettes, or Wang Liping asking 5k from foreign students for a seminar.

 

Thats not to disparage either one of them.

 

Cultivation is difficult and lonely work, though. Very difficult and very lonely, and not very rewarding in the typical meaning of the words.

 

If you want to get on a plane, have people scream something like basically "Not Chinese!!!!" directly to your face 24 hours a day, have your humanity completely invalidated, live hand to mouth, forever be at the whims and mercy of people who are definitely NOT cultivating and who are motivated by the most base instincts, forget about all security, personal connections, etc. - then it's possible to find very good people who MAY (and equally as likely that you won't!) share very good and high level stuff with you.

 

(And before people blast me about having financial/family/personal responsibilities I have them too. I have familial relationships that are just as valid as yours, I desire security as much as you do, and so do all of the other people who turn away from that stuff on the *HOPE* (not even the likelyhood!!!) of finding the Tao.

 

For those people looking for a magic bulllet - just pay magic bullet prices and maybe you'll get what you want. Who knows.

Edited October 3, 2008 by wudangquan

[Blind Owl]

By the way, burning the money has the effect of making money in the society more worth (lowering the inflation), so you are effectively giving your money to everybody in the society, just you are sharing it giving more to people who have more money.

 

made me remember these guys:

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

Just out of curiousity how many members are right around the young age of 20ish? In this modern day 20ish is still very immature and childish. My point, why speak on anything when you have no real experience with it?

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

I don't know how old you are, but perhaps you should find some 20 year olds in real life that are actually working hard in life rather than thinking that all the 20 year olds are like what you see on tv. After all, why speak on anything when you have no real experience with it?

 

Yeah. We're out here.

 

Young?

 

Perhaps.

 

Imature?

 

I think not.

 

There are mature and immature people in every age group. To categorize everyone in a particular age group according to your own (potentially) limited perspective is... not good... sure, there are people in their early 20's who are exceedingly irresponsible, but there are many people in their early 20's that are on the other end of the spectrum. There are middle aged people out there who act irresponsibly, even if they have a family! Just having a family, or being around long enough to have some kind of "experience", doesn't make you responsible, and just being young doesn't make you irresponsible.

 

So just because you're not hearing about the responsible ones on tv/news/entertainment media doesn't mean we don't exist.

 

No offense intended, it's just that words like that can be somewhat offensive

Edited October 3, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[Taoist81]

Hmmm. Maybe there is some truth to this. All of the high priced gurus might have hit on the truth in reality. According to this: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/extract/299/9/1016 fake medicine works better if it is expensive...

[wudangquan]

I think that gets to the heart of the matter.

 

Most of what people need is freely available.

 

But they don't accept it, and always want to find this or that secret method, high level teacher, etc. when the answers are right in front of them. They just don't like the answer.

[h.uriahr]

I respectfully disagree.

 

I don't know how old you are, but perhaps you should find some 20 year olds in real life that are actually working hard in life rather than thinking that all the 20 year olds are like what you see on tv. After all, why speak on anything when you have no real experience with it?

 

Yeah. We're out here.

 

Young?

 

Perhaps.

 

Imature?

 

I think not.

 

There are mature and immature people in every age group. To categorize everyone in a particular age group according to your own (potentially) limited perspective is... not good... sure, there are people in their early 20's who are exceedingly irresponsible, but there are many people in their early 20's that are on the other end of the spectrum. There are middle aged people out there who act irresponsibly, even if they have a family! Just having a family, or being around long enough to have some kind of "experience", doesn't make you responsible, and just being young doesn't make you irresponsible.

 

So just because you're not hearing about the responsible ones on tv/news/entertainment media doesn't mean we don't exist.

 

No offense intended, it's just that words like that can be somewhat offensive

To catagorized everyone in a particular age group or any group is a stereotype. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. I wasnt speaking to anyone in particular so to speak but I've noticed some comments on other posts from a few members and you can clearly tell that they havent reached maturity. Have some tea and maybe a cake or pastry aswell. It's still hot

[Sloppy Zhang]

To catagorized everyone in a particular age group or any group is a stereotype. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. I wasnt speaking to anyone in particular so to speak but I've noticed some comments on other posts from a few members and you can clearly tell that they havent reached maturity. Have some tea and maybe a cake or pastry aswell. It's still hot

 

I agree that stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, and often they have some basis in fact.

 

But that still doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to categorize someone according to a stereotype. If you are going to judge someone at all, at least judge someone by their own merit or lack thereof, instead of the merits and demerits of their age group.

[h.uriahr]

I agree that stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, and often they have some basis in fact.

 

But that still doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to categorize someone according to a stereotype. If you are going to judge someone at all, at least judge someone by their own merit or lack thereof, instead of the merits and demerits of their age group.

Jah Nigga...is that a merit?

[YMWong]

Most of what people need is freely available.

 

But they don't accept it, and always want to find this or that secret method, high level teacher, etc. when the answers are right in front of them. They just don't like the answer.

 

 

Vey true, WDQ, very true

 

YM

[Li Jiong]

I think that gets to the heart of the matter.

 

Most of what people need is freely available.

 

But they don't accept it, and always want to find this or that secret method, high level teacher, etc. when the answers are right in front of them. They just don't like the answer.

You are right, that's also a reason for why payment is necessary.

[wudangquan]

You're preaching to the choir, dude.

 

I fully understand why you would charge for it, even if you were already rich (and I don't know your personal situation).

 

The "big names" of the previous generation of Western Taoists put cd's upon cd's upon dvd's of utter low level nonsense out year after year, charge people outrageous amounts for it and people continue to eat it up and pretend like it's the Tao itself they've bought into.

 

If somebody posted the simple truths of cultivation for free in an open forum like this, 99% of people would not even give it a second thought.

 

A sad truth, but as humans and consumers we buy things based on emotions, and then rationalize and tell ourselves logical "sounding" stories about "why" we did it post facto.

 

I've put a good chunk of the Quanzhen stuff up for free, and people will still spend thousands of dollars for much lower vehicles of teaching, and will rationalize it with things about transmission (that of course are not subject to divergence and were never passed on to lower grade disciples who couldn't embody it in it's totality, and that never happened in multiple iterations during the course of 7-10,000 years), etc.

 

And to be totally frank - While I don't practice it . . . The cultivation system that in my opinion is far and away closest to the truth which is taught in public is completely, 100% free but "Taoists" aren't interested -

 

1. Because it's free

2. Because it requires stepping out of humanness

3. Because they can't make money out of it later on down the road.

 

So I for one don't think you're wrong to sell it, if you believe that what you've got is good.

 

I like to give the stuff I do away, but I might not always do that, and I understand why someone who thinks they've got a good system wouldn't either.

 

And also . . . You believing you're enlightened and all that - I probably don't need to say this, but . . .

 

I don't think the heat from the end of the Qigong era has really died down yet, and you should think seriously about what you say to private students vs. what you say in public on the internet as long as you and they are in the PRC.

 

GZ is a relatively progressive city but it's not so far away from Zhongnanhai that you can't have big troubles if you're making such claims and actually get a large following.

 

I assume you know what you're doing, though and it's your business, not mine.

[h.uriahr]

Payment isnt necessary for learning the tao. Go to the library and grab a book on it. If youre talking about learning a "cool" practice then it'll probably cost initial out of pocket, ie plane tickets, passport, etc. The master may accept you for free and you just do chores or he may make you pay, it's entirely up to you as to whether or not it's worth it. Simple as that.

[Li Jiong]

You're preaching to the choir, dude.

 

I fully understand why you would charge for it, even if you were already rich (and I don't know your personal situation).

 

The "big names" of the previous generation of Western Taoists put cd's upon cd's upon dvd's of utter low level nonsense out year after year, charge people outrageous amounts for it and people continue to eat it up and pretend like it's the Tao itself they've bought into.

 

If somebody posted the simple truths of cultivation for free in an open forum like this, 99% of people would not even give it a second thought.

 

A sad truth, but as humans and consumers we buy things based on emotions, and then rationalize and tell ourselves logical "sounding" stories about "why" we did it post facto.

 

I've put a good chunk of the Quanzhen stuff up for free, and people will still spend thousands of dollars for much lower vehicles of teaching, and will rationalize it with things about transmission (that of course are not subject to divergence and were never passed on to lower grade disciples who couldn't embody it in it's totality, and that never happened in multiple iterations during the course of 7-10,000 years), etc.

 

And to be totally frank - While I don't practice it . . . The cultivation system that in my opinion is far and away closest to the truth which is taught in public is completely, 100% free but "Taoists" aren't interested -

 

1. Because it's free

2. Because it requires stepping out of humanness

3. Because they can't make money out of it later on down the road.

 

So I for one don't think you're wrong to sell it, if you believe that what you've got is good.

 

I like to give the stuff I do away, but I might not always do that, and I understand why someone who thinks they've got a good system wouldn't either.

 

And also . . . You believing you're enlightened and all that - I probably don't need to say this, but . . .

 

I don't think the heat from the end of the Qigong era has really died down yet, and you should think seriously about what you say to private students vs. what you say in public on the internet as long as you and they are in the PRC.

 

GZ is a relatively progressive city but it's not so far away from Zhongnanhai that you can't have big troubles if you're making such claims and actually get a large following.

 

I assume you know what you're doing, though and it's your business, not mine.

Yes, I know.

I am charging money, actually, it is nothing to do with my personal financial status, even if I am very rich, I will still charge for my teaching.

As I mentioned somewhere before, I am just playing a game, I do not care how many can be really saved, that's their business, not mine. I just offer an opportunity to everyone fairly, as for who take it, who reject it, who are hurted by it, I don't care.

[三江源]

.

Edited April 9, 2015 by 三江源

[SiliconValley]

I just offer an opportunity to everyone fairly, as for who take it, who reject it, who are hurted by it, I don't care.

 

Who are you? God?

 

or Li Hongzhi cloned?

[wudangquan]

Who are you? God?

 

or Li Hongzhi cloned?

 

In fairness, the "other" Li gives all of his stuff away.

 

I think he probably lives from the (likely massive) sales of his books, but they're available for free in word/pdf/or html on their websites, as well.

 

I'm sure he's not hurting for money, but to be fair he doesn't charge for any information, practices, etc.

 

Unless you count utter devotion.

 

He's someone else I also have not met, but I've met many many of his followers and they all devote their time and energy to doing stuff free and will teach you anything they have for free.

 

It's something that's not for me, personally for various reasons but I wouldn't think to slander it in the way that many other people do.