Yin Xian Fa and Ling Bao Bi Fa Cultivation Methods

[宁]

Procurator,

 

I know you're a person will valuable things to say. But why are you sabotaging yourself? I think you have every right and reason to question, but the way you do it really reduces your chances of getting a good answer.

 

It's his style.

He has nothing to sell, and his arguments valid.

If you dont like the method, don't worry, he doesn't need or want to be liked.

He just wants you to put what he thinks are the right questions.

 

If you remarked so far, there are a couple of guys here with nothing to sell, not even an idea.

They just don't care too much about it.

 

And you, as daoist practicioners, should have more understanding on this.

If what he hits is just your egos, then maybe he's your friend.

What do you feel about his intentions (negative or positive)?

 

The fact that the man walks his talk should make you consider his words - whether sweet or bitter - with a different attitude. There were a lot of sweet-talking fools around, that you liked and enjoyed.

Enjoy this!

 

PS: Just food for thought, don't narrow your views too much. Taste is not debatable.

[Procurator]

Procurator,

 

I know you're a person will valuable things to say. But why are you sabotaging yourself?

 

 

Hi how are you?

 

i donno about that. I went back to my initial question, re-read it ...did not see anything but a polite request. Sabotaging is in the eye of the beholder, i guess.

 

I think you have every right and reason to question, but the way you do it really reduces your chances of getting a good answer.

 

sure, may be. but please consider this..if a polite, straightforward question is answered with an evasive back talk, followed by "how dare you to question my great and terrible master"...may be a "good answer" was not ever an option.

 

Even if i kowtowed and knocked my head on the ground probably this guy would have found another pretext to weasel out of giving a good answer.

Edited October 2, 2008 by Procurator

[VCraigP]

Hi how are you?

 

i donno about that. I went back to my initial question, re-read it ...did not see anything but a polite request. Sabotaging is in the eye of the beholder, i guess.

sure, may be. but please consider this..if a polite, straightforward question is answered with an evasive back talk, followed by "how dare you to question my great and terrible master"...may be a "good answer" was not ever an option.

 

Even if i kowtowed and knocked my head on the ground probably this guy would have found another pretext to weasel out of giving a good answer.

 

Talk about weaseling. Come on. RESPECT. We all know what it is. You clearly have enough background to know that it takes nothing away from you to give respect. Are you grown up enough to act respectfully towards all, regardless of your opinion of them?

 

Grow up.

 

Craig

[Procurator]

 

 

Grow up.

 

Craig

u go straight to my ignore list Craig.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Procurator]

Any continuation of this behaviour and I-and no doubt others-will communicate with the moderators and ask them to deal with it.

 

Best,

 

Mike

pffft ..what are u 11? , in the meantime ..rest in peace dude

 

u r a welcome addition to my ignore list

[宁]

Well, if he doesn't need or want to be liked, why does he react so sensitively to people communicating with him in a similar manner to the way he communicates with them? I have no problem with straight talking-in fact I much prefer it. Straight talking is not being deliberately rude, and THAT is the issue here.

 

Valid arguments? No. You can ask a question and query the answer, or lack of, certainly.

 

To ask a question and then resort to haranguing and insults when you don't get the answer you want, no.

 

To simply express opinions in a deliberately rude and confrontational manner, no.

 

To insult people you have never met, no.

 

I could not give a fig what he thinks about me, but I don't have to tolerate his insulting my friends, fellow forum members and valued contributors.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this time it doesn't feel like a request of fairness, it feels more like personal vengeance.

Well. Who am I to tell.

Do as you wish, but it always takes (at least) two to make a fight...

 

L1

[松永道]

Ok, peace with it then.

 

I've been busy all day these days, but I'd like to get this topic back on track so here is just a little bit on the 10th method, 凝神寂照 Ning Shen Jizhao Crystallizing the Spirit.

 

调息要调真息息，炼神要炼不神神，

凡息停而真息动，真息生而内炁行；

识神断而真神生，真神生而炼元神，

阴神全而阳神生，目空心空见真性。

 

Breath regulation means to cultivate the real breath,

Shen cultivation means to practice a state of thoughtless awareness,

When the common breath stops the real breath ignites,

when the real breath begins internal Qi flows;

Halt the ego (Shi Shen) and real awareness (Zhen Shen) emerges,

Use real awareness to cultivate the original spirit (Yuan Shen),

Yang Shen is born when the Yin Shen is pure,

Eyes empty, heart empty, encounter true nature.

 

Peace,

Song

Edited October 3, 2008 by 松永道

[sheng zhen]

When the common breath stops the real breath ignites,

Is this to be understood literally? Does the breathing through lungs stop completely, like in no diaphragmic movement, or is it just slowed down to the point that is "looks like" or "feels like" it has stopped?

[YMWong]

Breath regulation means to cultivate the real breath,

Shen cultivation means to practice a state of thoughtless awareness,

When the common breath stops the real breath ignites,

when the real breath begins internal Qi flows;

Halt the ego (Shi Shen) and real awareness (Zhen Shen) emerges,

Use real awareness to cultivate the original spirit (Yuan Shen),

Yang Shen is born when the Yin Shen is pure,

Eyes empty, heart empty, encounter true nature.

 

Is that your translation, SYD, or an interpretation ?!?

 

There is quite a bit, IMHO, to be heavily re-worked

 

YM

[松永道]

Is that your translation, SYD, or an interpretation ?!?

 

There is quite a bit, IMHO, to be heavily re-worked

 

YM

 

It was a quick translation to try and save a sinking thread and maybe a wee comment on why the thread detoured in the first place...

 

Please post or contact me with your critique, I respect your words.

[VCraigP]

Is that your translation, SYD, or an interpretation ?!?

 

There is quite a bit, IMHO, to be heavily re-worked

 

YM

 

So easy to criticize.

Easier for you than most of us to help SYD improve on his translation.

 

Perhaps you could offer your suggestions directly to SYD?

 

To my mind these words point to some truth. Perhaps it needs polishing but this mirror does reflect...something.

 

Care to use some window cleaner yourself. Or do you prefer to sit on high on snicker at our meager efforts?

 

Craig

 

PS - IMHO. The H stands for Humble.

[Procurator]

Ok, peace with it then.

 

I've been busy all day these days, but I'd like to get this topic back on track so here is just a little bit on the 10th method, 凝神寂照 Ning Shen Jizhao Crystallizing the Spirit.

 

 

 

调息要调真息息，炼神要炼不神神，

凡息停而真息动，真息生而内炁行；

识神断而真神生，真神生而炼元神，

阴神全而阳神生，目空心空见真性。

 

Breath regulation means to cultivate the real breath,

Shen cultivation means to practice a state of thoughtless awareness,

When the common breath stops the real breath ignites,

when the real breath begins internal Qi flows;

Halt the ego (Shi Shen) and real awareness (Zhen Shen) emerges,

Use real awareness to cultivate the original spirit (Yuan Shen),

Yang Shen is born when the Yin Shen is pure,

Eyes empty, heart empty, encounter true nature.

 

Peace,

Song

as you said yourself the texts are literal, so the most glaring mistakes are those that result from non-literal translations. I have underlined those.

 

The key here is the proper understanding of 调. Here, it does not mean regulate. No siree..far from it.

Edited October 4, 2008 by Procurator

[Aetherous]

Why is it that people say "you're wrong about your translation" and not give a more correct one?

[VCraigP]

Why is it that people say "you're wrong about your translation" and not give a more correct one?

 

Well...trying to look at the cup half full, at least Procurator suggested something. Maybe SYD can work with that.

 

I don't get the impression that Procurator really wants to help in a direct way. Maybe indirectly he can still help with the translation process.

 

Still, it IS annoying.

 

Craig

 

PS - Lets see if Pro really put me on his ignore list

[Stigweard]

A conflagration like this presents us all with a wonderful opportunity for greater self-awareness.

 

The whole issue started with these two comments:

 

"I asked the question to assess if your school teaches the true method. Care to answer my question?"

 

followed by:

 

"Well that is assuming you know what is a "true method". what make you think that?"

 

An argument of any magnitude will only start when both parties make an emotional investment in a fixed point of view and when those points of veiw are threatened in any way we become defensive and we more than often opt for offence as the best defence. However with both parties defending their points of view you become more entrenched and fixated to it and as such the confrontation escalates. Now add to the mix other people also feeling their points of view are 'offended' and they throw their defensive/aggressive sentiments in.

 

And thus we find ourselves in this unfortunate stouch.

 

But like I said, we have here a great opportunity to learn.

 

To Procurator, I know your orginal request was straight forward and sincere but can you see how the comment "true method" made it appear you were taking the stance of "I know the real truth"? Now granted you may indeed know such a truth, but can you see how this approach grated on other people's sensibilities?

 

To Ken and others, can you see how Procurator's comments struck an emotional chord in you which threatened you in some way? If we were really secure in our beliefs we wouldn't feel the need to defend them. To defend a point of view is an attachment to self and such attachments limit our ability to reach the fullness of awareness.

 

So let's take a moment to dispell our invested positions, allow our awareness to expand beyond our fixated points of view and continue this united quest for Universal Truth.

 

Blessings,

[YMWong]

So easy to criticize.

 

You may have missed the fact that I was the fist or the second to add additional translation to this thread, my friend.

 

You also might have a lot of spare time and probably cannot conceive that people have a life and things to do.

 

My question to SYD, which he has clearly understood, was about the possibility that some of his insigths might have been there - thus making for an interpretation instead of a literal translation.

 

I'll post some about that later tonight, if we are all here to discuss.

 

YM

[YMWong]

Back online.

 

Let's start with the first two stanzas:

 

调息要调真息息，炼神要炼不神神

 

SYD reads it as:

 

Breath regulation means to cultivate the real breath,

Shen cultivation means to practice a state of thoughtless awareness

 

my reading is:

 

(To) adjust the breath one has to adjust the breath of real-brething

(To) practice the spirit one has to practice the spirit of no-spirit

 

凡息停而真息动，真息生而内炁行

 

SYD reads it as:

 

When the common breath stops the real breath ignites,

when the real breath begins internal Qi flows

 

my reading is:

 

(When) normal breathing stops then real breathing moves

(When) real breathing is born then internal Qi flows

 

Any take ?

 

YM

[松永道]

Another long day.. I've got a very interesting translating job, but it isn't leaving me with much extra Shen to devote to this thread at the moment. I'll certainly be giving more consideration to this particular translation in the (hopefully near) future - it's one of the more important poems.

 

YMWong and Procurator, thanks, please keep it coming. I can see both of you favor a very literal translation. In your case YM, I'd even suggest that instead of using the word spirit, perhaps it's best to just use Shen. Jing, Qi, and Shen commonly translated as Essence, Energy, and Spirit has always seemed a bit unfitting. Spirit especially is a loaded term in the west, it carries a lot of extraneous ideas. Procurator evidently also takes the same issue with Tiao, commonly translated as 'to regulate'.

 

I still haven't figured out just how literal is appropriate for these ancient texts. Truly in Chinese they are often meant to be read surprisingly literally. However, part of the culture just doesn't translate, such as "spirit of no-spirit" or "Shen-less Shen". Shen is consciousness, it's the observer behind the mind, but it's also more.. how to translate? That I'm neither a master nor a poet is two strikes against me!

 

Thank you both for the critiques, they have certainly not fallen on deaf ears.

 

---

 

Craig and friends, thank you for your support, but no worries. I really appreciate criticism. And if it's constructive, all the better! I had a friend tell me today, "living in society makes the weak, weaker and the strong, stronger." It resonated. The insults, inhumanities, comforts, and cravings will tear us down unless we use each one as an exercise for enlightenment.

Edited October 5, 2008 by 松永道

[YMWong]

In my opinion a translation should be as literal as possible, an interpretation should contain the interpreter's understanding. I enjoy both, as long as the author stick to one of the two and openly so.

 

Shen, again to me, is not consciousness but spirit.

I may be wrong as english is not my first language but a see a huge difference between the two.

Shen-spirit is (almost) an entity that resides within.

 

YM

[VCraigP]

In my opinion a translation should be as literal as possible, an interpretation should contain the interpreter's understanding. I enjoy both, as long as the author stick to one of the two and openly so.

 

Shen, again to me, is not consciousness but spirit.

I may be wrong as english is not my first language but a see a huge difference between the two.

Shen-spirit is (almost) an entity that resides within.

 

YM

 

Thanks for stepping back in. You have come back with better feedback as I had hoped you would. YM, I know you have quality input to give, so I was dissappointed to see merely an unsupported criticism in your earlier post. Your further input solidifies my impression that you do have something valuable to add.

 

Seeing the two interpretations side by side is valuable to all.

It is interesting to note that SYD's rendering to me immediately elicits meaning. The very literal translation while it may translate the chinese characters literally does not have much meaning to the native english speaker.

This is the quandary of translation. You put forward a translation which may elicit meaning to you in English, but your actual context is non english derived. SYD puts forward his interpretation with some knowledge of what the literal translation is, but attempts to convey meaning to the English speaker who has only english context from which to attach meaning.

 

Neither translation or interpretation would be of much use to anyone without further context provided by education in the deeper meaning of practice/cultivation.

 

In my view SYD's interpretation is a useful one. I have context from a teacher educated in Longmenpai from the same lineage as SYD's. My teacher's translations/interpretations from Chinese to English bear more resemblance to SYD's than to yours, and he is a native Chinese speaker. The difficulty remains to create a translation that conveys the meaning. Words like cultivation convey agriculture to most English speakers, yet to those of us whose teachers use such terms they convey a whole other set of concepts and say a lot more than -practice- for example.

 

As SYD says - keep it coming.

 

SYD - Keep up the good work and accept my apology for rushing unneeded to your defense.

 

Craig

[gendao]

[Procurator]

However, part of the culture just doesn't translate, such as "spirit of no-spirit" or "Shen-less Shen". Shen is consciousness, it's the observer behind the mind, but it's also more.. how to translate?

Hi Song,

 

the important thing here is to put aside the preconcievied notions. YM is correct in his interpretation of Shen but there is more to it than that. Please take a look at this glossing of shen of no shen:

 

殊不知此神乃後天之神，而非先天之神，乃神而實不神者。先天之神，非色非空，

至無而含至有，至虛而含至實，乃不神之神，而實至神者。奈何世人只知後天之神而神，甘入於輪迴，不知先天不神之神，能保乎性命，無怪乎萬物盜我之氣而罔覺也。

 

http://www.stanford.edu/~pregadio/etexts/LiuYM_YFJ.html

[Procurator]

Back online.

 

Let's start with the first two stanzas:

 

调息要调真息息，炼神要炼不神神

 

SYD reads it as:

 

Breath regulation means to cultivate the real breath,

Shen cultivation means to practice a state of thoughtless awareness

 

my reading is:

 

(To) adjust the breath one has to adjust the breath of real-brething

(To) practice the spirit one has to practice the spirit of no-spirit

 

 

 

Any take ?

 

YM

 

Yeah i will bite

 

还原法 Huan Yuan Fa

 

第一法 收心静坐 Shouxin Jingzuo

The First Method: Sitting and Collecting the Mind

 

第二法 调身安体 Tiao Shen An Ti

The Second Method: Regulating the Body

 

第三法 无视返听 Wu Shi Wu Ting

The Third Method: See Nothing, Hear Nothing

 

第四法 收视返听 Shoushi Fan Ting

The Fourth Method: Watching and Listening

 

第五法 调整凡息 Tiaozheng Fan Xi

The Fifth Method: Regulating the Breath

 

第六法 调心安神 Tiao Xin An Shen

The Sixth Method: Regulating the Heart/Mind

 

第七法 调养真息 Tiaoyang Zhen Xi

The Seventh Method: Restoring the Original Breath

 

Hi YM,

 

you have opted for "to adjust" instead of "to regulate" for 调 but both have pretty much the same meaning, shi bu shi?

 

Please look at the context above for 调, is regulate/adjust the only meaning that is applicable? is it the best meaning?

 

And..

 

you translate 炼 as 'practice"....well it does mean practice, but it also have another, literal meaning. Which one is more suitable in context of a jin-dan text?

Edited October 5, 2008 by Procurator

[YMWong]

It is interesting to note that SYD's rendering to me immediately elicits meaning. The very literal translation while it may translate the chinese characters literally does not have much meaning to the native english speaker.

 

Craig,

 

reading Daoist texts is not the same as reading the newspaper. They have a number of usages one of which is instilling 'things' in your mind in a non-direct way.

 

So if I ask my wife or daughter, who are both native speakers, to read those stanzas and tell me what they mean they won't have an immediate direct answer.

 

A literal translation, in my opinion, as as close as it comes to give similar results in another language.

The brain will work on that, consciously and later unconsciously, in a similar way as a native speaker would do i.e. in the original way the author meant it to be done.

Needless to say one reading the translation might miss quite a number of things given the fact that his and the language backgrounds are different, but at least he won't get *mislead* by someone else's interpretation.

 

Daoist texts, most of them, has been (classically) interpreted by various masters of the past for the usage of later Daoists - but those are specifically called 'commentaries' which are given AFTER the original text.

 

YM

Edited October 6, 2008 by YMWong