Myth Busting

[Stigweard]

I honestly believe that our greater society would benefit immensely from the rich wisdom and virtue of Taoism and Buddhism. However the proliferation of self-proclaimed masters showing off parlour tricks or making "Nutella in the shorts" claims of spiritual ascendency as means to attract attention, followers, and money tarnishes the credibility of these beautiful teachings.

 

And, because by nature Taoism and Buddhism tend to be quiet and humble paths, all our society sees are these crackpots and charlatans and unfortunately the devoted practitioners and authentic teachers get branded with the same label.

 

I applaud the suggested establishment of an international forum of authentic Masters. But maybe we should also compose a "myth busting" protocol to confirm or bust claims of 'special abilities' or spiritual ascendancy. Then with this 'filter' we can credibly post a Charter of Authenticity to serve both the integrity of our own cultivation and also to create the foundation of greater credibility for our chosen traditions within our own communities.

 

What say you?

[林愛偉]

**Reposted here from the Lobby section because I'm a Noob LOL **

 

I honestly believe that our greater society would benefit immensely from the rich wisdom and virtue of Taoism and Buddhism. However the proliferation of self-proclaimed masters showing off parlour tricks or making "Nutella in the shorts" claims of spiritual ascendency as means to attract attention, followers, and money tarnishes the credibility of these beautiful teachings.

 

And, because by nature Taoism and Buddhism tend to be quiet and humble paths, all our society sees are these crackpots and charlatans and unfortunately the devoted practitioners and authentic teachers get branded with the same label.

 

I applaud the suggested establishment of an international forum of authentic Masters. But maybe we should also compose a "myth busting" protocol to confirm or bust claims of 'special abilities' or spiritual ascendancy. Then with this 'filter' we can credibly post a Charter of Authenticity to serve both the integrity of our own cultivation and also to create the foundation of greater credibility for our chosen traditions within our own communities.

 

What say you?

 

 

This myth busting has been done in old African and Caribbean Battle Wizard cultures; Those who claimed they got it, were put to a test. If they couldn't produce the magic, they were killed on the spot b the elders because letting them live would just poison the society.

 

I will let you all know my abilities now, so as to save everyone the trouble of raising up in arms :

 

When I have to go to the bathroom, I remain patient until I see a bathroom. Then, I go to the bathroom.

Hungry, whatever will not upset my stomach and mind is good for me.

When faced with opposition, I see them talking in sign language, but I can't read sign language, so I

laugh. If they go to hit me, I get out of the way...

Alone, I am lazy, in company, I serve tea. Oh, and I do need to shower occasionally.

 

 

 

 

I say, no talk of spiritual powers. If people come saying they have this and that, ignore them. If they can produce it when its needed, good for them. Its best to not let them open their mouth and delude others, than it is for them to try and not produce.

 

Only when one "needs" the function, is the function producible. Other than that, its sheer ignorance to bring up "I have this power and I can see dead people..." That's good, I ask, What did the Buddha say in the Desire heaven's yesterday? Oh, couldn't hear the Dharma? The ability is useless.

 

It is best that the senses are turned inward, the mind bright. This way, all sounds are heard without needing to hear, and sights are seen without needing to be seen...etc, etc, etc... ( I am thankful for that musical the King and I...haha etc, etc, etc...)

 

All abilities manifest in wholesomeness when wisdom is cultivated. I wouldn't tell someone I do such and such and that if they study what I teach, they can get it too. No way. I would say, there is a method you can cultivate. Your attainment is dependent on your diligence and good roots.

 

That way, its safe for the teacher, and makes the student work hard. They will know the result of their cultivating when the time to harvest is proper. There is no need to rush. Some people have to wait lifetimes before they can float, fly, read minds, see realms, astrally project, etc. Attainments are no way one lifetime. Any teache saying otherwise is indeed lying to their students. And if the students can produce the result, ask them the day later, if they can't do it again, its only temporary and thus deviant.

 

Relying on such teachings of deviance would only make the student cultivate in vain. It is so important to uphold teachings of wisdom, that will result in attainment of spiritual abilities, but just not chasing after them. This can go on forever..hahahaha

 

I'll stop here

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Stigweard]

 

There was a story about business man who, with his gold and his skill, inquired about spiritual enlightenment from many, many masters.

 

One day a sage arrived and said to him, "Tell me of your achievement"

 

The business man replied, "I have learnt the true secrets of the universe. I understand the forces of nature. I understand the movements of the planets, and I understand the mysterious forces behind all creation."

 

The sage replied, "That's nice. Now tell me how are your bowel movements, what's your digestion like, and how are you with women?"

 

The business man replied, "Well I am constantly constipated, I have indigestion most of the time, and I am impotent."

 

The sage replied, "Never let the glitter of conceptual knowledge override the simple virtues of a natural, wholesome life."

Edited October 2, 2008 by Stigweard

[Vajrasattva]

at the end of the day an "Ability" occurs if the Creator wills it and grants the "Shakti" for things to happen.

 

Also certain things are not for show. They serve a higher purpose (Healing, mass change, transmutation etc). It may be common that when you are with a generous teacher your life changes, it is as if you are living a seperate reality or dream where all things are possible. This is the Creator working through your "guru" to show you the potential of the creator itself with in and with out you.

 

 

I have seen enough to not doubt and I have seen enough to know we are capable of the miraculous if our hearts are in the right place.

 

Also keep in mind as the Native Americans say " you see what you really want to see"...

 

 

If you want to see things not work they wont.

 

If you want to see things work and be miraculous they become that.

 

Peace & God Bless & eat your Nutella on toast and not in your shorts!

Santiago Dobles

Edited October 2, 2008 by Vajrasattva

[styrofoamdog]

Daoism and Buddhism have a long history of practitioners who had supernatural abilities, and both Daoist and Buddhist classics teach that supernatural abilities may develop naturally during practice. I don't think we should just cast this aside as if we know that they can't occur. But I don't think we should chase after them either. They're not the point of cultivation, just interesting side-effects.

[Unconditioned]

I agree with the approach but the difficult part is where do you draw the line between who is 'in' and 'out'?

[林愛偉]

[Stigweard]

Daoism and Buddhism have a long history of practitioners who had supernatural abilities, and both Daoist and Buddhist classics teach that supernatural abilities may develop naturally during practice. I don't think we should just cast this aside as if we know that they can't occur. But I don't think we should chase after them either. They're not the point of cultivation, just interesting side-effects.

 

 

I agree with what you have said wholeheartedly. I have had enough personal verification that there are indeed 'mysterious' forces in the universe and that certain individuals have the ability to produce extraordinary abilities. But these abilities are not in themselves the goal.

 

I also agree with Lin that a progression of discernment and wisdom in this matter is necessary.

[Spectrum]

Well said Lin. Thank you. I can relate to the signs, walking around w/ ear plugs creates a series of half knowns that seem to settle a lot of universal unknowns.

 

When I have to go to the bathroom, I remain patient until I see a bathroom. Then, I go to the bathroom.

Hungry, whatever will not upset my stomach and mind is good for me.

When faced with opposition, I see them talking in sign language, but I can't read sign language, so I

laugh. If they go to hit me, I get out of the way...

Alone, I am lazy, in company, I serve tea. Oh, and I do need to shower occasionally.

...

Only when one "needs" the function, is the function producible. Other than that, its sheer ignorance to bring up

 

The Perfect Move (unseen scenes move myths)

 

1. Get out of the way

2. Redirect

3. Technique

4. Setup (4 th nxt prfct mv)

[h.uriahr]

Abilities are byproducts of your training. If you train correctly they are unavoidable. Being able to clear the mind of thoughts and emotions is an ability. The ability to go days, weeks, months without food and water is an ability. There are many abilities and many people seem to hate them instead of embracing them. I would love to meet the guy who meditates just to have power and is an Ahole. Abilities are nothing more than progress and enhancement. Why people look down upon them is beyond me.

Edited October 4, 2008 by MPWay

[Stigweard]

Abilities are byproducts of your training. If you train correctly they are unavoidable. Being able to clear the mind of thoughts and emotions is an ability. The ability to go days, weeks, months without food and water is an ability. There are many abilities and many people seem to hate them instead of embracing them. I would love to meet the guy who meditates just to have power and is an Ahole. Abilities are nothing more than progress and enhancement. Why people look down upon them is beyond me.

 

 

You have missed the intent of this topic. Noone here, well at least myself anyway, is "looking down" on abilities at all, in fact I agree with everything you have said. If you reread the first post you will understand that my concern is how people claiming false abilities as a marketing gimmick are misrepresenting our traditions.

 

And in truth I will follow through on establishing a draft protocol on how to test the authenticity of claimed abilities and will post it here for review and amendment.

[h.uriahr]

TCM treats each person differently, same goes with the abilities. A generalized test may or may not work for everyone which leads to a whole lot of problems. Ego is the enemy in this post. Sounds like you just want to go out there and rid the world of all the 'fakes', all in the name of ego. Right objective wrong reason

[Stigweard]

TCM treats each person differently, same goes with the abilities. A generalized test may or may not work for everyone which leads to a whole lot of problems. Ego is the enemy in this post. Sounds like you just want to go out there and rid the world of all the 'fakes', all in the name of ego. Right objective wrong reason

 

I appreciate your comment and recognise the pitfalls you accurately highlight. Thank you for your insight. So if I hear you correctly, in your opinion, these 'tests' would only be valid if, just like TCM, appropriate care was given to ensuring that they treated each individual uniquely.

 

Am I right in saying so?

[h.uriahr]

I appreciate your comment and recognise the pitfalls you accurately highlight. Thank you for your insight. So if I hear you correctly, in your opinion, these 'tests' would only be valid if, just like TCM, appropriate care was given to ensuring that they treated each individual uniquely.

 

Am I right in saying so?

Yes. Although I'm sure that your own BS meter will go off when you meet many of these so called 'masters' I hope that you do infact develop this testing because it will be a joke in itself just to see how many 'masters' take the test or simply refuse it. I've seen some things that make me scratch my head and ask why so many people would buy into it and it's beyond me. I wish the best of luck to you with development. Keep me updated

[林愛偉]

This project isn't about finding out who's "real and who's not". Its about

cultivation, and utilizing that cultivation to benefit others. If someone comes with talk of a skill,

and can't put out, why should they teach what they teach...?

 

If someone has a skill, but no wisdom behind it in the education of one's cultivation, it may not be the most wholesome of things.

 

YET, when someone who has skill and wisdom comes, they will have a wholesome posture to them.

Not just only in the physical for some may be deformed, but hold great wisdom... but energetic, mental.

 

This situation is indeed NOT what many assume it is. Those involved may search for teachers, in doing so, they would research their background, find out their history. Research their teachings, and investigate the education there of so as to understand the manner of cultivation a teacher may bring.

 

Basically, it seems like an effort to create an outlet of good knowing advisors for those who seek cultivation of the way.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited October 5, 2008 by 林愛偉

[h.uriahr]

This project isn't about finding out who's "real and who's not". Its about

cultivation, and utilizing that cultivation to benefit others. If someone comes with talk of a skill,

and can't put out, why should they teach what they teach...?

 

If someone has a skill, but no wisdom behind it in the education of one's cultivation, it may not be the most wholesome of things.

 

YET, when someone who has skill and wisdom comes, they will have a wholesome posture to them.

Not just only in the physical for some may be deformed, but hold great wisdom... but energetic, mental.

 

This situation is indeed NOT what many assume it is. Those involved may search for teachers, in doing so, they would research their background, find out their history. Research their teachings, and investigate the education there of so as to understand the manner of cultivation a teacher may bring.

 

Basically, it seems like an effort to create an outlet of good knowing advisors for those who seek cultivation of the way.

 

Peace,

Lin

By finding out if someone who talks skill but actually has none is finding out who is fake and who is not correct?

No disrespect intended

[林愛偉]

By finding out if someone who talks skill but actually has none is finding out who is fake and who is not correct?

No disrespect intended

 

 

You are thinking too much about this issue. All living beings hold all spiritual abilities, they are just not pure in mind, and complete in virtue to realize it. Thus, its not finding who is fake, simply who has attained the skill...they would by no means be shunned.

 

This issue should be dropped, it creates too much false thinking.

 

Peace,

Lin

[h.uriahr]

You are thinking too much about this issue. All living beings hold all spiritual abilities, they are just not pure in mind, and complete in virtue to realize it. Thus, its not finding who is fake, simply who has attained the skill...they would by no means be shunned.

 

This issue should be dropped, it creates too much false thinking.

 

Peace,

Lin

The amount of thought involved is roughly equal to that which is involved in urinating. This is a simple matter.

[Stigweard]

This issue should be dropped, it creates too much false thinking.

 

Fair 'nuf, consider it dropped.

[mat black]

Abilities are byproducts of your training. If you train correctly they are unavoidable. Being able to clear the mind of thoughts and emotions is an ability. The ability to go days, weeks, months without food and water is an ability. There are many abilities and many people seem to hate them instead of embracing them. I would love to meet the guy who meditates just to have power and is an Ahole. Abilities are nothing more than progress and enhancement. Why people look down upon them is beyond me.

 

The intention here as i understand it is not about deriding abilities per se.

It is the potential mis-use of abilities, the potential harm caused by abilities, the potential ego inflation and boasting because of abilities that is to be identified, discouraged and eliminated from a proposed group gathering.

 

Maybe one way of determining if ones abilities are acceptable [in a gathering] would be to identify what their intent is.

 

My guess is that a good ability involves being able to: (but not limited to)

- assist in healing (with anothers' request & consent),

- articulate and explain important teachings and virtues in a clear and understandable way

- help eliminate impediments to learning

- identify an individuals' potential and then offer suggested methods best suited for their cultivation if and when requested by the individual

- to demonstrate and inspire co-operative, friendly and sincere conduct.

Edited October 5, 2008 by mat black

[Stigweard]

The intention here as i understand it is not about deriding abilities per se.

It is the potential mis-use of abilities, the potential harm caused by abilities, the potential ego inflation and boasting because of abilities that is to be identified, discouraged and eliminated from a proposed group gathering.

 

Maybe one way of determining if ones abilities are acceptable [in a gathering] would be to identify what their intent is.

 

My guess is that a good ability involves being able to: (but not limited to)

- assist in healing (with anothers' request & consent),

- articulate and explain important teachings and virtues in a clear and understandable way

- help eliminate impediments to learning

- identify an individuals' potential and then offer suggested methods best suited for their cultivation if and when requested by the individual

- to demonstrate and inspire co-operative, friendly and sincere conduct.

 

Cheers Matt, t'was my thoughts on the matter as well.

[h.uriahr]

Does anyone have the ability to recognize and control ego? I only ask because there is this man who likes to makes challenges to people and is pretty annoying and aggressive about it too. His name is James Randi. This very ignorant and vendictive man likes to debunk people with the attitude that HE is always right and that things of the metaphysical sense arent real. Developing a test also brings up ego. A feeling of wanting to debunk for the purpose saying "Look, I exposed a fake". To deny this is deny the problem. The only 'ability' that's worth anything, in the end, is being able to build someone up who has fallen and then make them realize that you had nothing to do with it and that it was their own strength and will that made them rise from the ashes so to speak. All the other abilities are just great for showing people that the method you follow works. The abilities are great for personal markers aswell.

[Stigweard]

Does anyone have the ability to recognize and control ego? I only ask because there is this man who likes to makes challenges to people and is pretty annoying and aggressive about it too. His name is James Randi. This very ignorant and vendictive man likes to debunk people with the attitude that HE is always right and that things of the metaphysical sense arent real. Developing a test also brings up ego. A feeling of wanting to debunk for the purpose saying "Look, I exposed a fake". To deny this is deny the problem. The only 'ability' that's worth anything, in the end, is being able to build someone up who has fallen and then make them realize that you had nothing to do with it and that it was their own strength and will that made them rise from the ashes so to speak. All the other abilities are just great for showing people that the method you follow works. The abilities are great for personal markers aswell.

 

There is a fine line of ego for sure. The intent, well at least mine, is not to 'debunk' as such nor is it to try and prove that such abilities are not possible. Because truth be told I do believe in paranormal phenomena, a belief built through my own experience and understanding.

 

Your concerns are very valid, and I share them right along side of you. But the other extreme to unbending skepticism is blind faith and that path is likewise fraught with danger.

 

Now Santiago has said that:

 

"If you want to see things not work they wont.

 

If you want to see things work and be miraculous they become that."

 

However in this there is a danger as well because (excuse me quoting from a fictional source, but...):

 

"People will believe a lie either because they truly want to or they fear it is true."

 

I have seen so many people, myself included in the past, who have so wanted to believe in 'something' that they will ignore the obvious in order to hang onto their cherished fantasy. And when such fantasies gather popular sentiment then we can, and have, witness unfortunate cultural aberations.

 

And yes of course the flipside is that people, in their desperate attempt to refute mysterious happenings, will ignore what is right in front of their eyes in order to cling to their cherished rationale.

 

So a balanced, impartial approach is required. We should neither "want to see things not work" nor should we "want to see things work" because both of these imply an attachment to a desired outcome. Instead we should apply all discernment to see things as they truly are, neither believing nor not believing but instead endeavouring to become fully aware of the true reality of things.

 

Should we unquestioningly believe in claims and demonstrations of powers? This approach is very convenient for 'masters' who are employing false abilities to gather more followers. And also to use such a false ability as a personal benchmark is the height of self delusion.

 

And should we avoid applying true discerning inquiry to the teachings and practices we are being taught? Now sure we should trust our teachers and follow their instruction. But to do so without discernment creates a dependency on the source which neither honours ourselves nor our teachers. And, in my view, a spiritually independent soul lives by their own virtue.

 

And in essence all of our teachings and practices have been passed down through aeons of trial and error experimentation. Did the sages of old wait until they were enlightened before they underwent their tests and experiments? Perhaps it was through exactly this process that they indeed became enlightened.

 

So should I wait until I can fly through the air and walk on water before I start questioning and applying impartial discernment to the possibilities that are presented around me?

 

Why shouldn't we question such claims of ability? So much good research has gone into the healing benefits of Qigong and much proof is prevalent about its benefits for many illnesses. So why should we then apply scientific research to one area of qigong and yet declare that the area of 'special qigong abilities' is off-limit?

[林愛偉]

Does anyone have the ability to recognize and control ego? I only ask because there is this man who likes to makes challenges to people and is pretty annoying and aggressive about it too. His name is James Randi. This very ignorant and vendictive man likes to debunk people with the attitude that HE is always right and that things of the metaphysical sense arent real. Developing a test also brings up ego. A feeling of wanting to debunk for the purpose saying "Look, I exposed a fake". To deny this is deny the problem. The only 'ability' that's worth anything, in the end, is being able to build someone up who has fallen and then make them realize that you had nothing to do with it and that it was their own strength and will that made them rise from the ashes so to speak. All the other abilities are just great for showing people that the method you follow works. The abilities are great for personal markers aswell.

 

 

Why control ego?

 

Just put it down.

[h.uriahr]

Why control ego?

 

Just put it down.

Here we go with the philosophical sayings Easily done with the right mindset desire to do so, however, on average, that wont happen. Good thoughts

 

There is a fine line of ego for sure. The intent, well at least mine, is not to 'debunk' as such nor is it to try and prove that such abilities are not possible. Because truth be told I do believe in paranormal phenomena, a belief built through my own experience and understanding.

 

Your concerns are very valid, and I share them right along side of you. But the other extreme to unbending skepticism is blind faith and that path is likewise fraught with danger.

 

Now Santiago has said that:

 

"If you want to see things not work they wont.

 

If you want to see things work and be miraculous they become that."

 

However in this there is a danger as well because (excuse me quoting from a fictional source, but...):

 

"People will believe a lie either because they truly want to or they fear it is true."

 

I have seen so many people, myself included in the past, who have so wanted to believe in 'something' that they will ignore the obvious in order to hang onto their cherished fantasy. And when such fantasies gather popular sentiment then we can, and have, witness unfortunate cultural aberations.

 

And yes of course the flipside is that people, in their desperate attempt to refute mysterious happenings, will ignore what is right in front of their eyes in order to cling to their cherished rationale.

 

So a balanced, impartial approach is required. We should neither "want to see things not work" nor should we "want to see things work" because both of these imply an attachment to a desired outcome. Instead we should apply all discernment to see things as they truly are, neither believing nor not believing but instead endeavouring to become fully aware of the true reality of things.

 

Should we unquestioningly believe in claims and demonstrations of powers? This approach is very convenient for 'masters' who are employing false abilities to gather more followers. And also to use such a false ability as a personal benchmark is the height of self delusion.

 

And should we avoid applying true discerning inquiry to the teachings and practices we are being taught? Now sure we should trust our teachers and follow their instruction. But to do so without discernment creates a dependency on the source which neither honours ourselves nor our teachers. And, in my view, a spiritually independent soul lives by their own virtue.

 

And in essence all of our teachings and practices have been passed down through aeons of trial and error experimentation. Did the sages of old wait until they were enlightened before they underwent their tests and experiments? Perhaps it was through exactly this process that they indeed became enlightened.

 

So should I wait until I can fly through the air and walk on water before I start questioning and applying impartial discernment to the possibilities that are presented around me?

 

Why shouldn't we question such claims of ability? So much good research has gone into the healing benefits of Qigong and much proof is prevalent about its benefits for many illnesses. So why should we then apply scientific research to one area of qigong and yet declare that the area of 'special qigong abilities' is off-limit?

Go for it. I personally question everything. I believe in every ability there is, with the exception of changing into a flying pig and the sorts I dont however, believe anyone when and if they say they have abilities beyond that of healing, even though I KNOW other abilities exist, it's just most people dont cultivate them or pursue their meditation any further. Just be sure that your intent is in the right place. Do it for whatever reason, except the ego.