Daoist and Tibetan Transmissions

[Spirit Ape]

Though i would start a thread on what type of transmissions are involved in Daoism and Tibetan Buddhism, Indian traditions.

 

I dont know any at all apart Reiki does anyone know if Daoist have transmissions and if so what are they or how it differs compared to Tibetan or Indian type transmissions?

 

SA

[wudangquan]

I'm going to get ripped to shreds for this, but . . .

 

Real Taoism doesn't do this stuff.

 

There may be some instances of energy being transferred, but it's more like radiant energy.

 

The stuff like GuanDing is a clear sign that something is not Taoist, or is a very heterodox Taoist practice, a low grade practice, or a side path. Or it could be something much worse and much more dangerous.

 

In other practices - they do this. Like Tantrism, and certain other esoteric practices.

 

Taoism is a lineage practice, and it doesn't seek to save all beings like Buddhism. The real stuff goes to one student but this kind of thing isn't done.

 

My feeling on this matter is that anybody who's doing anything like pouring energy into your head, etc. is not doing an orthodox Taoist practice, and not only is it not Orthodox Taoist religion, it's also not even from the same cultivation school.

 

It's legitimate in other cultivation schools, but it's not a Tao practice.

 

Therefore the Master

acts without doing anything

and teaches without saying anything.

Things arise and she lets them come;

things disappear and she lets them go.

She has but doesn't possess,

acts but doesn't expect.

When her work is done, she forgets it.

That is why it lasts forever.

 

If you overesteem great men,

people become powerless.

If you overvalue possessions,

people begin to steal.

 

The Master leads

by emptying people's minds

and filling their cores,

by weakening their ambition

and toughening their resolve.

He helps people lose everything

they know, everything they desire,

and creates confusion

in those who think that they know.

 

Practice not-doing,

and everything will fall into place.

 

If you open yourself to the Tao,

you are at one with the Tao

and you can embody it completely.

If you open yourself to insight,

you are at one with insight

and you can use it completely.

If you open yourself to loss,

you are at one with loss

and you can accept it completely.

 

Open yourself to the Tao,

then trust your natural responses;

and everything will fall into place.

 

Knowing others is intelligence;

knowing yourself is true wisdom.

Mastering others is strength;

mastering yourself is true power.

 

The great Way is easy,

yet people prefer the side paths.

Be aware when things are out of balance.

Stay centered within the Tao.

 

Rushing into action, you fail.

Trying to grasp things, you lose them.

Forcing a project to completion,

you ruin what was almost ripe.

 

Therefore the Master takes action

by letting things take their course.

 

I have just three things to teach:

simplicity, patience, compassion.

These three are your greatest treasures.

Simple in actions and in thoughts,

you return to the source of being.

Patient with both friends and enemies,

you accord with the way things are.

Compassionate toward yourself,

you reconcile all beings in the world.

 

When they lose their sense of awe,

people turn to religion.

When they no longer trust themselves,

they begin to depend upon authority.

 

 

*ducks*

[ToL]

So initiation in an orthodox Daoism, is just a Symbolic Ceremony, or does it have more then that...?

[YMWong]

Real Taoism doesn't do this stuff.

 

There may be some instances of energy being transferred, but it's more like radiant energy.

 

The stuff like GuanDing is a clear sign that something is not Taoist, or is a very heterodox Taoist practice, a low grade practice, or a side path. Or it could be something much worse and much more dangerous.

 

Right on, brother

 

YM

[wudangquan]

You agree that you will, and you demonstrably show that you can do certain things and not do other certain things, similar to abiding by precepts in Buddhism (as I understand Buddhism, which as I say is limited).

 

You have to learn certain things first - some things like stepping patterns, and other ritualized things for performing specific functions.

 

Then you get trained to do whatever your school, temple, or whatever has Daoshi to do, and work on your own cultivation.

 

Even alot of Chinese think that there's Guanding in Taoism, but there isn't.

 

Being Daoshi just means that you are trained to do the things that Daoshi do, and are empowered with authority (through training) to do them.

 

It's an idea that's been popularized by Wuxia, chivalrous novels and questionable cross-pollination of lineages, schools, and practices during the qigong era.

 

I've seen some sects where they do some things like . . . It's hard to explain it without saying wild sounding things, but where they may use gong to get rid of some bad things, remove obstructions (like in Niwan), etc.

 

But the idea of supplementary cultivation energy, or getting some highlander quickening or whatever - it's not Taoist.

 

I have just finished recording Secret Of The Golden Pill, and will put that up along with some other recordings tonight or tomorrow. There is some applicable stuff in there.

 

There are some people who do this kind of thing under the banner of Taoism, though.

 

But what they are doing is putting their own things in you.

 

Where does the energy come from? Not your own cultivation. Nobody knows for sure.

 

What is the purpose of the things they install? They don't tell you clearly because you wouldn't accept them if they did.

 

What is really cultivating? You would shudder to think about it.

 

You train yourself in Taoism. You cultivate yourself. It's not like Christianity where the hero can bear your karma for you.

 

Your teacher is your teacher. Not your messiah, and he also is in the 3 realms - he probably doesn't have anything to spare for you.

 

EDITED FOR CLARITY 5 MINUTES LATER . . . .

 

But my point is not to change anyones mind. Just as a word of caution for people who want to listen. Those who don't, it's ok and not my business.

Edited October 5, 2008 by wudangquan

[ToL]

Normally speaking, neigong is practiced alone. But when Master Wang daigong with a group of people, he can greatly increase the efficiency and result.

 

As I understand it, Longmen Pai is a Daoist lineage, and I can understand from this quote taken from the wonderful blog of Shen Laoshi, that the Master does give an increase of energy to his students.

[wudangquan]

Sure.

 

A good teacher can create a field, and can also lower resistance.

 

I haven't trained or studied with Wang, so I can't talk about him specifically - just my own general and limited understandings.

 

What I would assume, and what I have seen with the good teachers is that:

 

1. They can create an energy field that is more conducive to good practice

2. They can lower the environmental and personal constraints that people have

3. Their cultivated bodies can clear some things up that most people can't even see

 

What they don't do is give you cultivation energy that you haven't cultivated yourself.

 

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[YMWong]

As I understand it, Longmen Pai is a Daoist lineage, and I can understand from this quote taken from the wonderful blog of Shen Laoshi, that the Master does give an increase of energy to his students.

 

ToL,

 

this has nothing to do with what "transmission", in the empowerment sense, is frequently discussed here.

 

"Daigong" simply means that Wang leads a group of students, for instance in meditation, and of course the results might be quite different from the group practicing alone.

 

But there is no 'infusion' of anything, so secret-touch-that-gives-power.

 

There is no power, actually

 

YM

[三江源]

Sure.

 

A good teacher can create a field, and can also lower resistance.

 

 

What I would assume, and what I have seen with the good teachers is that:

 

1. They can create an energy field that is more conducive to good practice

2. They can lower the environmental and personal constraints that people have

3. Their cultivated bodies can clear some things up that most people can't even see

 

What they don't do is give you cultivation energy that you haven't cultivated yourself.

 

In my experience good teachers can if they wish give you a burst of energy and allow it to do it's thing in healing you, or moving you on to the next level which is appropriate to you.

It is also my experience that in a lineage transmission the recipient may well pick up parts of the transmision that the person transmitting it is unaware of.

The intelligence in the qi transmitted interacts with the intelligence of the qi inside the recipient, and an individual alchemy is formed.

The more you are in resonance with your teacher, the more you will be aware of what you are receiving, and the more responsive you will be.

If you are in resonance, then just thinking of your teacher will harmonise your qi, and their presence will induce deep states, no transmission required.

 

 

 

I am reading Lama Zopa Rinpoche's book on Inner Fire right now, and he says that you need to go get a teacher to get the 'initiation; into the practice. You can get the teachings from his book, he says, but for the initiation you need the real live human being. So I would say that is a Tibetan Transmission.

 

If you read autobiography of a yogi, by paramahansa yogananda , which I strongly recommend, you will understand a lot more vividly about tranmission and possibly receive transmission from the book, if you are open to it.

 

 

 

 

The point about them 'not giving you cultivation energy that you havent cultivated yourself' is an interesting point.. how can a teacher transmit higher teachings, non - verbally, if s/he is not doing precisely this very thing?

[YMWong]

I am reading Lama Zopa Rinpoche's book on Inner Fire right now, and he says that you need to go get a teacher to get the 'initiation; into the practice. You can get the teachings from his book, he says, but for the initiation you need the real live human being. So I would say that is a Tibetan Transmission.

 

If you read autobiography of a yogi, by paramahansa yogananda , which I strongly recommend, you will understand a lot more vividly about tranmission and possibly receive transmission from the book, if you are open to it.

 

Cat,

 

WDQ's point, and mine for what that matters, was that DAOISM does not have trasmission/enpowerment and not that tibetan-yogi-whathaveyou do not have it

 

YM

[三江源]

'Radiant Energy' is a transmission to initiates.

[autopoetic]

My teacher warned us against any such transmission of qi. His take on it was that if you receive such an 'opening', you take on the pattern of energy of your teacher, which may not be the right pattern for you. Only until you are cultivated to or beyond the point that your teacher was when he transmitted to you will your own pattern begin to emerge. This emphasis on the need to respect individual difference was one of the things that attracted me to the lineage I'm learning from.

[wudangquan]

Cat,

 

WDQ's point, and mine for what that matters, was that DAOISM does not have trasmission/enpowerment and not that tibetan-yogi-whathaveyou do not have it

 

YM

 

Yes.

 

Guanding (sorry I don't know the Tibetan or Sanskrit word off hand) is definitely a part of Tantrism and Tibetan tantrism.

 

As I understand it (and not so well) they do it to open your lucky straw and create some other mechanisms.

 

If you're doing these things, and calling it Tantrism, and have received legitimate transmission yourself - then ok. That's just Tantrism (I mean just as it just is, not as a belittlement).

 

If you're doing it under the banner of Taoism - then something else is going on because these practices don't exist. Taoism uses energy channels and is different than Tantrism.

 

For example - Tantrism uses mutual cultivation of male and female at some levels. Not male and female elements, but beings.

 

Taoism believes that you have both yin and yang in your own body, and doesn't necessitate these kinds of practices.

 

That doesn't mean that one is better than the other - They're just different practices, and they were created out of different situations, necessities, and actually to be honest - completely different pre-conditions for cultivation and historical periods (on the macro, kalpa sort of level).

 

At the higher levels of Taoist practice, yin and yang mean something different, as well.

 

What I don't want to do is accidentally cause any kind of sectarian argument between Taoists, Tantrists, etc. because I don't invalidate and I respect all upright paths.

 

It's just that Taoism is not Tantrism, and it doesn't have these things. Not as the Taoist religion, and not even as an overall school of cultivation and anyone who does them is misunderstanding a key issue, or is up to no good.

[三江源]

My teacher warned us against any such transmission of qi. His take on it was that if you receive such an 'opening', you take on the pattern of energy of your teacher, which may not be the right pattern for you. Only until you are cultivated to or beyond the point that your teacher was when he transmitted to you will your own pattern begin to emerge. This emphasis on the need to respect individual difference was one of the things that attracted me to the lineage I'm learning from.

 

What lineage is that, autopoetic?

 

In my experience of watching people receive transmissions, they only 'pick up' what they are capable of receiving. Yet I do feel that it is wise to be cautious with this kind of thing. Definitely.

[wudangquan]

'Radiant Energy' is a transmission to initiates.

 

Sorry and don't mean to be argumentative but this is not really correct.

 

The transmission in question is one of direct transfer of energy, with intent to do so for a specific purpose of empowering or enhancing someones cultivation.

 

A true accomplished master, or an enlightened being radiates "energy" and rectifies everything around them.

 

Like the Buddha with Angulimala.

 

It's not the same thing.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jonathan

[三江源]

WDQ, yes, they are different! Tantrism is not Taoism.

 

I was answering to Spirit Ape's OP.

 

I am very happy to have the differences outlined, I find it fascinating.

 

What do you mean about the use of male and female beings in Tantrism? I'd be grateful if you could clarify.

 

 

 

Sorry and don't mean to be argumentative but this is not really correct.

 

The transmission in question is one of direct transfer of energy, with intent to do so for a specific purpose of empowering or enhancing someones cultivation.

 

A true accomplished master, or an enlightened being radiates "energy" and rectifies everything around them.

 

Like the Buddha with Angulimala.

 

It's not the same thing.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jonathan

 

What I should more clearly have said is "radiant energy is RECEIVED as transmission to initiates' in that it furthers, fosters and promotes their level of practice.

 

So the distinction is about 'intent'.

[wudangquan]

Hey cat,

 

I've had a very long day today, and am quite tired so apologies if I came off in any way other than one of friendly discussion.

 

Weekends are very long for me, and involve crazy amounts of physical work - to the point of complete exhaustion, and I've just finished up my two heaviest (physical) days for the week.

 

I take Mondays off, and then just meditate Tue.-Fri. so right now I am going to watch season 4 of Battlestar Galactica on my laptop, then wake up refreshed tomorrow, grease the wheels with some baijou, a double McCheeseburger reward, and light reading, and will return to this thread and pontificate, at length -much to your and everyone elses dismay.

 

J

[Aetherous]

How can anyone claim to know all of what's happened in Taoism throughout all of history?

 

Not that I believe Taoism has included transmissions. I really don't know. But how can you know?

 

Also...what is "real" Taoism? Living in a temple in China, wearing robes, doing certain rituals, reading certain books? I would claim that is "fake" Taoism.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Scotty

[三江源]

heh heh, I'm going to have some popcorn and watch some of the Original Star Trek!

 

Have a great chill out.

 

xxxx

[Aetherous]

Edited October 5, 2008 by Scotty

[三江源]

Thankyou for your great politeness, wdq. I appreciate it.

[Oolong Rabbit]

How can anyone claim to know all of what's happened in Taoism throughout all of history?

 

Not that I believe Taoism has included transmissions. I really don't know. But what I do know is it's ridiculous to claim to know one way or the other.

 

 

I agree. The more you try to define taoism, the more you limit it. There are countless sects with varying practices. I find it hard to believe that none practice energy transmission. If you were to say that sect x does not officially practice energy transmission, that's one thing.... but to say energetic transmissions has no place in taoism? It seems a bit arrogant to me to make such statements.

 

On another note you better trust your teacher 100% before accepting a transmission.

 

BTW,

 

The sanskrit term for transmission is Shaktipat:

 

Shaktipat

 

Shaktipat or Śaktipāta is a Sanskrit word in the Hindu spiritual tradition that refers to the act of a guru or spiritual teacher conferring a form of spiritual "power" or awakening on a disciple/student. Śakti translates as spiritual energy and "pāta" as descent(to fall down).[1][2] Shaktipat can be intermediated by the spiritually enlightened master either by transmission of sacred word or mantra, a look, a thought or by touch. The touch is usually given to the ajna chakra or third eye of the disciple. Shaktipat can be transmitted in person or at a distance, through an object such as a flower or fruit, or via telephone or letter.[3]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktipat

[ToL]

On another note you better trust your teacher 100% before accepting a transmission.

 

Why people warn about transmissions?

[Oolong Rabbit]

Why people warn about transmissions?

 

To use the anaolgy of a computer: if you start downloading and installing programs indiscriminantly, you risk running malicious code on your system.

[Taomeow]

To use the anaolgy of a computer: if you start downloading and installing programs indiscriminantly, you risk running malicious code on your system.

That's not transmission, that's possession.

 

Transmissions, however, are the heart of absolutely all genuine systems, not just taoism (and of course genuine taoism is transmitted, no ifs and buts -- like any other genuine ancient system. Taoism without a transmission is a taxidermy art, a study of a stuffed nightingale sitting on a shelf. In the meantime, a real live nightingale sings its transmission and flies away! ) E.g., in Kabbalah, it's called "to light a candle from a candle." So, Rabbit, unlike in your computer analogy, the candle of the teacher's gong ignites your own, and how clean or how smoky your own flame will be, how bright it will burn or how soon it will go out --

this depends on the candle you are. A transmission ignites your own light, what will happen to it once it's yours depends on you.