Daoist and Tibetan Transmissions

[autopoetic]

What lineage is that, autopoetic?

 

In my experience of watching people receive transmissions, they only 'pick up' what they are capable of receiving. Yet I do feel that it is wise to be cautious with this kind of thing. Definitely.

 

The lineage is called Taiji-Men. It is not well known, but has been around for about 700 years. It's daoist qigong, incorporating insights from buddhist vipassana meditation.

 

That's not transmission, that's possession.

 

Transmissions, however, are the heart of absolutely all genuine systems, not just taoism (and of course genuine taoism is transmitted, no ifs and buts -- like any other genuine ancient system. Taoism without a transmission is a taxidermy art, a study of a stuffed nightingale sitting on a shelf. In the meantime, a real live nightingale sings its transmission and flies away! ) E.g., in Kabbalah, it's called "to light a candle from a candle." So, Rabbit, unlike in your computer analogy, the candle of the teacher's gong ignites your own, and how clean or how smoky your own flame will be, how bright it will burn or how soon it will go out --

this depends on the candle you are. A transmission ignites your own light, what will happen to it once it's yours depends on you.

 

What do you mean by 'transmission' here? A teacher actively and consciously opening the student up energetically with their own qi? Or the non-verbal understanding that happens between all people, all the time? There is a world of difference, and probably many shades in between. So which do you mean?

Edited October 5, 2008 by autopoetic

[ToL]

E.g., in Kabbalah, it's called "to light a candle from a candle."

 

 

Where do you study Kabbalah?

Edited October 5, 2008 by ToL

[Taomeow]

The lineage is called Taiji-Men. It is not well known, but has been around for about 700 years. It's daoist qigong, incorporating insights from buddhist vipassana meditation.

What do you mean by 'transmission' here? A teacher actively and consciously opening the student up energetically with their own qi? Or the non-verbal understanding that happens between all people, all the time? There is a world of difference, and probably many shades in between. So which do you mean?

The teacher consciously and energetically opening the student up, but not with what Westerners (as well as Western-minded Asians) understand as "qi" (I think I will act on everyone's nerves if I reiterate once again that "qi" of my understanding is not "energy" but I have to, lest we use the same word but mean totally different phenomena) -- not with a "bolt of energy" but with a "bolt of meaning," "bolt of transformation," "bolt of truth," "bolt of new vision," "onslaught of different-level information" and so on -- yes, THAT is also qi, but it is not the "energy qi" of Western theories, it is the "medium and message of meaningful change" of traditional taoist understanding. Different traditions do it differently. Some will transmit with things like ayahuaska (in taoism, the true purpose of the ingestion of the immortality pill is exactly the same), others will send you on a vision quest to a sacred "transmitting" spot, some will give you an object of power (a talisman) that will act as a "transmitter." Many will transmit in dreams (taoism is prominently prone to this mode of transmission though it is not the only one it uses -- but there's hundreds of classical stories where the teacher-student transmission takes place via the teacher showing up in the student's dream, or else the teacher taking a student because the student happened to show up in the teacher's dream). Some will use the method that is probably the one most often thought of as "the" transmission -- a kind of "charged" touch from the teacher, either physical or "energetic." This is legit, but it's only one way, out of many, and the same student might get a "portion" of the transmission this way and then other portions via other methods.

 

Whole transmissions -- of the teacher's entire spirit, entire being -- are also part of many traditions, these typically only happen when the teacher dies and has selected his or her direct successor. This is a classic shamanic tramsmission, where the shaman is not thought of as an individual at all but rather as a force that comes to manifest via a succession of bodies, all of these bodies are different people living in different times but they are all essentially one and the same shaman, because what's transmitted is not the personality an individual had but the force, power, art, craft, connection, conduit it was quite aside from the individual personality and physical being.

 

That's what I meant. Taoism is transmitted via pretty much "any and all" of these methods and more, but whatever uses none of them isn't taoism, is just a scholarly hobby...

 

 

Where do you study Kabbalah?

Oh, I didn't really study it in any depth, just read a few books. But if you want to study it seriously, seek out a kabbalistically trained rabbi, a few of them might have weekend or evening schools for beginners or can point you in the direction of one.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Taomeow

[Oolong Rabbit]

That's not transmission, that's possession.

 

Transmissions, however, are the heart of absolutely all genuine systems, not just taoism (and of course genuine taoism is transmitted, no ifs and buts -- like any other genuine ancient system. Taoism without a transmission is a taxidermy art, a study of a stuffed nightingale sitting on a shelf. In the meantime, a real live nightingale sings its transmission and flies away! ) E.g., in Kabbalah, it's called "to light a candle from a candle." So, Rabbit, unlike in your computer analogy, the candle of the teacher's gong ignites your own, and how clean or how smoky your own flame will be, how bright it will burn or how soon it will go out --

this depends on the candle you are. A transmission ignites your own light, what will happen to it once it's yours depends on you.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on that one Taomeow. I think the analogy of lighting a candle from a candle is a little too simplistic for what takes place during a transmission. My analogy is not perfect either, but I think it paints a better picture.

 

Brgds!

[.broken.]

I agree with Taomeow. How could there be a teacher-student relationship without energy transfer from one to the other? Qi is in words and action as much as it is in silence and non-action.

 

Yours humbly,

James

Edited October 5, 2008 by .broken.

[rain]

I agree. The more you try to define taoism, the more you limit it. There are countless sects with varying practices. I find it hard to believe that none practice energy transmission. If you were to say that sect x does not officially practice energy transmission, that's one thing.... but to say energetic transmissions has no place in taoism? It seems a bit arrogant to me to make such statements.

 

On another note you better trust your teacher 100% before accepting a transmission.

 

BTW,

 

The sanskrit term for transmission is Shaktipat:

 

Shaktipat

 

Shaktipat or Śaktipāta is a Sanskrit word in the Hindu spiritual tradition that refers to the act of a guru or spiritual teacher conferring a form of spiritual "power" or awakening on a disciple/student. Śakti translates as spiritual energy and "pāta" as descent(to fall down).[1][2] Shaktipat can be intermediated by the spiritually enlightened master either by transmission of sacred word or mantra, a look, a thought or by touch. The touch is usually given to the ajna chakra or third eye of the disciple. Shaktipat can be transmitted in person or at a distance, through an object such as a flower or fruit, or via telephone or letter.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktipat

 

 

shaking hands, you know when or not time is right. Your body knows. even when you head says you want it.

 

"when the STUDENT is ready the teacher appears.." it is about love all the time?

 

You can throw the belt back and you can shake the hands off.

 

perhaps?

[三江源]

 

The lineage is called Taiji-Men. It is not well known, but has been around for about 700 years. It's daoist qigong, incorporating insights from buddhist vipassana meditation.

 

 

thankyou, that sounds very interesting.

Edited October 5, 2008 by cat

[autopoetic]

That's what I meant. Taoism is transmitted via pretty much "any and all" of these methods and more, but whatever uses none of them isn't taoism, is just a scholarly hobby...

 

When 'transmission' is defined this broadly, I can't help but agree. Your sense of 'qi' seems so inclusive that it's hard to imagine anything that isn't qi. In this sense, we all 'transmit' teachings to each other all the time. Your message was a 'transmission' to me, and likewise mine is a 'transmission' to you. You seem to know quite well that this isn't what I had in mind, but if you prefer to talk in this way, that's fine by me.

[Taomeow]

When 'transmission' is defined this broadly, I can't help but agree. Your sense of 'qi' seems so inclusive that it's hard to imagine anything that isn't qi. In this sense, we all 'transmit' teachings to each other all the time. Your message was a 'transmission' to me, and likewise mine is a 'transmission' to you. You seem to know quite well that this isn't what I had in mind, but if you prefer to talk in this way, that's fine by me.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my words, so let me try again.

 

A Transmission is different from a Lesson. It is also different from a series of lessons of any length and depth, and from any and all systems of learning that aren't communicated via a transmission, such as informing, showing, telling, teaching by example, training, coaching, stimulating the student's own creativity with assorted methods and props, assigning tasks and goals, monitoring the student's performance, correcting mistakes, and so on. None of these are transmissions nor parts of a transmission in the sense the word is used in our context. A Transmission in our context is an alternate-reality, nonordinary-consciusness event. I assert this is what takes place in all ancient genuine traditions, including taoism.

 

This event, I further assert, can take a number of shapes and forms and be accomplished via a number of different methods. I mentioned a few of the most common traditional ones, but I don't profess the knowledge of "all" of them, although I do know of quite a few more than the ones I mentioned.

 

Qi is not the same nor even close to something that some folks understand as certain "special energy of the transmission," even though qi, being indeed quite ubiquitous, is usually present -- before, during, and after the transmission. If transmission in the sense of a non-ordinary mode of learning is discussed in the sense "whether qi is or isn't being transmitted," it is simply being discussed in a wrong context. Whether other-dimensional reality is involved in a transmission is a much more relevant question. I assert it always is in a transmission.

 

 

Did I do better this time?

[xenolith]

Can females experience transmission (TM's definition) through internal alchemy?

 

If so, by what mechanism?

[Spirit Ape]

Autopoetic,

 

Can you talk more about TAIJI MEN?

 

Thanks all for your post this is a not a bad thread alot of different views and perspectives on what people feel are Transmissions!

 

regards

Spirit Ape

[Vajrasattva]

I agree with Taomeow. How could there be a teacher-student relationship without energy transfer from one to the other? Qi is in words and action as much as it is in silence and non-action.

 

Yours humbly,

James

 

 

Exactly you need transmission either by Divine Source or Physical Human Source.

[de_paradise]

Crystal clear to me Taomeow.

 

I remember taijimen from when I lived in Taiwan, they are HUGE there. Its the kind of group that can fill up football fields, all doing some tai chi in unison, wearing the same t-shirt.

 

http://www.taijimen.org/tjm2008b_eng/html/index.php

Edited October 6, 2008 by de_paradise

[wudangquan]

Wow . . .

 

Season 4 of Galactica was craaaazy! And the finale? Some straight up Charlton Heston "You did it!" action!

 

It's an indication of my attachments and my human sentimentality, but I get crazy over some interesting TV because I haven't watched tv for about 10 years.

 

Anything I could watch over here would be like . . . The English language channel cctv9 - aka the "Everything's OK" channel, or goofy variety shows with Chinese people singing in high school prom outfits, or the every popular - "Bow legged evil Japanese commander gets outsmarted by the brave Chinese peasant" bs. It's like Hogan's hero's, except nobody realizes it's supposed to be ridiculous. C'mon. They beat you when you had them out numbered 1,000,000,000,000,000 to 1!!!

 

Next big project? Lost season 5 in about 10 months, hopefully. Can't wait to find out where they moved that island and what those characters were carved down there in that wheel room, etc.!

 

Totally awesome stuff!

 

Anyway . . .

 

I don't want to argue about stuff about Taoist guanding or transmission with anyone. I feel like I've said everything I should say, and have tried to be not so discreet within the realm of civillized discussion and the rules that we mutually accept as users of this forum about what I think is really going on in alot of these cases.

 

Now I'll shut up about it and let people walk their own paths.

[autopoetic]

A Transmission in our context is an alternate-reality, nonordinary-consciusness event. I assert this is what takes place in all ancient genuine traditions, including taoism.

 

This event, I further assert, can take a number of shapes and forms and be accomplished via a number of different methods. I mentioned a few of the most common traditional ones, but I don't profess the knowledge of "all" of them, although I do know of quite a few more than the ones I mentioned.

Whether other-dimensional reality is involved in a transmission is a much more relevant question. I assert it always is in a transmission.

Did I do better this time?

 

This is much clearer, thank you. Since my teacher did not induce any "other-dimensional reality" experience in me (except by giving lessons and meditating with me) I am not practicing a "genuine tradition". Too bad for me, I suppose. I have had some mind-altering experiences through my qi-gong, but by myself, in the course of my daily practice.

 

Autopoetic,

 

Can you talk more about TAIJI MEN?

 

Thanks all for your post this is a not a bad thread alot of different views and perspectives on what people feel are Transmissions!

 

regards

Spirit Ape

 

Sure! I was taught an eyes-closed, sitting/standing/lying down meditation, which is the fundamental practice of the tradition. There are no specific movement patterns we are to do, though the standing form (a "holding ball" kind of form I think) does tend to cause some spontaneous movement. It is a healing form of qigong, meaning the focus is much more on balance than a lot of power. A steady and gradual increase of energy is developed, which clears out psychic/emotional/spiritual blockages... 'untying the knots' as the saying goes. This process is experienced as sensations or emotions bubbling up from the unconscious, which we are taught to practice non-attachment towards, letting them come, and letting them go. Eventually, with enough practice (and the right kind of body/mind), a permanent fusion of consciousness and the unconscious occurs, which is called "awakening". From there, the process continues to the wu-ji state, which is the ultimate (perhaps unattainable) goal of total awareness.

 

Crystal clear to me Taomeow.

 

I remember taijimen from when I lived in Taiwan, they are HUGE there. Its the kind of group that can fill up football fields, all doing some tai chi in unison, wearing the same t-shirt.

 

http://www.taijimen.org/tjm2008b_eng/html/index.php

 

I was excited for a minute when I thought I had found the rest of my school, then horrified when I saw the website! But now I'm almost positive that is a different tradition. There is no formalized tai chi in my tradition... and the hand position while sitting is different. We hold our hands crossed over the lower dan-tien, whereas they seem to have them face down on their knees. And my teacher would never talk about 'limitless energy'... he is much more realistic than that.

 

Also, no t-shirts!

[Taomeow]

This is much clearer, thank you. Since my teacher did not induce any "other-dimensional reality" experience in me (except by giving lessons and meditating with me) I am not practicing a "genuine tradition". Too bad for me, I suppose. I have had some mind-altering experiences through my qi-gong, but by myself, in the course of my daily practice.

 

Oh no, this is not how one would arrive at a conclusion that someone isn't practicing a genuine tradition at all, and of course I didn't and wouldn't in your case, because I have no information to go on at all in the case of your practice. See, a transmission is something that can take place years after one starts a genuine practice, and there's no telling how genuine it is from the timing of the transmission. It can be the first, the middle, or the last event of a practice, and the fact that it didn't happen YET doesn't by any means indicate that the practice is not genuine. In fact, in a traditional taoist learning process, you would spend some eight years on physical and general-education tasks before you would be deemed ready to sit in your first meditation, let alone be initiated by transmission. And then, when your body, mind and spirit are prepared accordingly, you might get it from a different entity than your teacher -- a taoist (or any other) school or sect usually has scores of patron deities and spirits looking in on its practitioners, and even demons, who might compete for a chance to transmit to you with the benevolent entities -- hence the importance of proper prior preparation so that by the time you're open enough to get noticed by an immortal entity, you will be prepared to accept or decline a transmission with adequate understanding of what is happening and what it is you're accepting or declining. Free will! A transmission incorporates free will, unlike a possession.

[wudangquan]

You should tell them WHY a demon would offer them energy.

 

Or what happens to them if they accept it from an animal or something other than a real Tao.

 

No gains without corresponding loss.

 

A chance to be human is an enviable blessing. The ignorant state of being human is pitiable and sad.

Edited October 6, 2008 by wudangquan

[Taomeow]

You should tell them WHY a demon would offer them energy.

 

Or what happens to them if they accept it from an animal or something other than a real Tao.

 

No gains without corresponding loss.

 

A chance to be human is an enviable blessing. The ignorant state of being human is pitiable and sad.

 

Oh, that's buddhist territory, I'm no expert on that. In taoism, you accept energy from anything you like, the whole cultivation is about learning how to transform it for your purposes, that's what alchemy is. There's nothing wrong with getting energy from animals, and in fact some prominent founders of taoism were animal transformers -- notably Laozi, emperor Yu, Fu Xi, and scores of others. There's nothing wrong with getting it from plants and minerals either, all of TCM is about that. What do you think "real tao" is, a humans-only club? "Study the cat, Saihung. Everything you need to learn, she knows already." -- Deng Ming-dao

 

"Energy" and a "transmission" are not the same. You can get energy from anything you like, and it doesn't turn you into what you're getting it from. With a transmission, it might... but it's still up to you. A transmission opens a door into a different you; whether you walk in or not, and how far you will go, is your call.

[宁]

Oh I'll study Long Johnson allright

 

 

signed

 

don piano

[wudangquan]

I wouldn't say that it's exclusively Buddhist, as they basically just come at the same problem from different angles, but that's just me.

 

And I guess I should have been more clear about what I was saying.

 

Sure, Lao Zi or this or that patriarch of this or that lineage can do certain things, and they have the discernment to do it.

 

An immortal might give energy to Lao Zi during his cultivation because they recognize him, or recognize his potential or something.

 

Something offering cultivation energy to Joe six-pack who wants to fly through the bamboo forest and hit hot Fetian with the Taoist dope dick probably is doing so for a different reason.

 

And really this is kind of difficult to have a conversation about, because we're not using a common set of meanings for the words we're typing, but I'm not talking about Qi.

 

If people want to pull in Qi from the earth, trees, fog gobbling, or what have you - I don't think it's a big deal.

 

The thing that concerns me is the idea that someones going to offer you the energy that only comes through cultivation, or which brings about levels that you haven't cultivated to.

 

Opening up states for people to experience - If I were able I probably wouldn't do it.

 

Giving or receiving energy that brings you to a level that you don't have the attainment status for? Mmmmm . .

 

Anyway like I said I think the problem is that we're not all using the same language, or meanings for our words.

 

I believe a person can transfer Qi to you, sure.

 

I believe in the cases of exceptionally rare people with rare qualities, that they might get energy which boosts their level from higher level beings for various reasons.

 

But to stick with a word that I can understand clearly - I don't believe Taoism has guanding.

 

Best regards,

 

Jonathan

[YMWong]

Oh, that's buddhist territory, I'm no expert on that. In taoism [...]

 

Oh !

Here goes the first then:

 

My link to Siberian-Mongolian-Manchu-shamanic/Maoshan/Tibetan Buddhist/Russian vorozhba traditions is a birthright.

 

 

YM

[Procurator]

Oh !

Here goes the first then:

Here goes the first then:

 

 

QUOTE

My link to Siberian-Mongolian-Manchu-shamanic/Maoshan/Tibetan Buddhist/Russian vorozhba traditions is a birthright.

 

 

 

 

 

YM

 

its the Sarah Palin argument - " i am living in a borderline state so i am an expert on foreign policy". Same here -" i live within 2 000 miles so i am somehow an expert on is going on in the area"

 

Sarah Palin is hot!

[Taomeow]

Oh !

Here goes the first then:

 

 

YM

 

Tibetan buddhism of the Badmaev lineage which is what you didn't want to find out anything about when I offered an explanation as to how come it's a "pout pourri" (by your definition) where I come from

 

is not the same as the buddhist beliefs of various online adherents. On the latter, I'm no expert. Matter of fact, I'm no expert on the former either, nor ever tried to be -- it just happens to be part of my teacher's lineage and has been mentioned in this context. If you can't do better than go personal on an ideological/experiential disagreement in this pathetic fashion, you're cheaper than my initial appraisal. Where's your de? dignity, self-respect?.. common sense?.. something better to do with your time?..

[autopoetic]

And then, when your body, mind and spirit are prepared accordingly, you might get it from a different entity than your teacher -- a taoist (or any other) school or sect usually has scores of patron deities and spirits looking in on its practitioners, and even demons, who might compete for a chance to transmit to you with the benevolent entities -- hence the importance of proper prior preparation so that by the time you're open enough to get noticed by an immortal entity, you will be prepared to accept or decline a transmission with adequate understanding of what is happening and what it is you're accepting or declining. Free will! A transmission incorporates free will, unlike a possession.

 

I'm afraid I've lost what you're talking about again. I've done sitting with trees, and gotten shifts of consciousness that way. Was that a transmission? My teacher has said that through cultivation, one slowly begins to learn to deal with energies outside of themselves, and that the process of going into oneself is similar to the process that a shaman would go through. But he didn't mention any spirits, demons or deities. Perhaps that is just for a later lesson.

[Taomeow]

I'm afraid I've lost what you're talking about again. I've done sitting with trees, and gotten shifts of consciousness that way. Was that a transmission? My teacher has said that through cultivation, one slowly begins to learn to deal with energies outside of themselves, and that the process of going into oneself is similar to the process that a shaman would go through. But he didn't mention any spirits, demons or deities. Perhaps that is just for a later lesson.

 

Well, it's not for me to say whether it was a transmission, you're a better judge of it. As a general rule though, shifts of consciousness happen WAY more often than transmissions. OK, let me give you one example of what would qualify as a transmission.

 

A Song dynasty emperor, Qinzong, was very young when he inherited the throne, very ignorant, and controlled by his corrupt ministers. Using the opportunity, a competing tribe of Jin declared war in 1125 and started gobbling up larger and larger parts of his kingdom. Eventually the Jin entered the capital, Yenjing (known today as Beijing) and captured the royal family. The young prince Zhao Gou managed to escape.

 

All alone and lost in a dark forest, however, he started losing heart and thinking of surrender and death as a welcome finale. He came to the conclusion that his father and grandfather failed as kings, and that it must be for the better if he dies and puts an end to the dynasty. With this decision, he came upon an abandoned temple hidden in the forest, walked in and, tired as he was, almost immediately fell asleep by the altar.

 

Suddenly, in his sleep, he heard a voice that said, "Get up! The Jin will be here soon." The prince saw a man of striking appearance standing before him. The stranger drew the characters of "Song" and "obstacle" above him and said, "Many obstacles lie ahead. Are you willing to overcome them and revive the kingdom of your ancestors? Or are you going to abandon your own fate, your family and your people to the Jin conquerors?"

 

The prince replied, "If I am given a chance to escape, I will overcome the obstacles, revive my kingdom and bring peace to my people."

 

The man said, "You will find food and wine on the altar. Outside, you will find a horse."

 

At this point Zhao Gou woke up, smelling freshly cooked food and sweet wine. He got up and ate in a hurry. Then in the moonlight he saw his dream visitor standing by a fresco of a white horse painted on one of the temple's walls. Zhao Gou recognized him. It was Cai Fu, the judge of the living and the dead.

 

He bowed and promised that if he lives to become emperor, he would build temples dedicated to Judge Cai Fu throughout the land and uphold justice the way he did.

 

When he looked up, he saw that both Cai Fu and the fresco of the horse had disappeared. He heard neighing outside though and saw a white horse tethered to a tree. He mounted it and rode away, barely escaping a Jin patrol.

 

The rest is history -- the Song dynasty ruled for another 150 years till they were conquered by the Mongols -- and the above is an example of a "transmission."