Once Enlightened, One Can Fall? - Kunlun Question

[ddilulo_06]

Maybe Chris, Mantra68, should answer this... or perhaps someone on here is *VERY* advanced in Kunlun.

 

I've been reading all the very informative (thank you) Kunlun posts on here and I've see Chris post a few times about direct experience with our divine true nature such as this post:

 

"Beyond physical sensations and benefits, Kunlun can give you direct experience with your divine true nature. In this state answers to many of your questions become clear."

 

I interpret that as it's not permanent. I thought once the ego dies... you're done. No more pain, suffering, reincarnating etc. If followed through to the end, will Kunlun allow one to transcend the ego for good? Does Kunlun induce the ULTIMATE state of becomming the all, like the over-used metaphor of a drop dripping into the ocean to become the ocean?

 

Confused,

 

Dusty

Edited October 7, 2008 by ddilulo_06

[Spectrum]

first to

force nothing

try easy

win last

[dragonfire]

I"m not a kunlun practitioner, but enlightenment does not guarantee you will lose your way. Enlightenment

or know the truth is just one step. Look at Rojineshi or OSHO. He was no doubt enlightened, but he still

spent lavishly on cars. Who the hell needs 20+ bentleys. When you are enlightened, I do think you have the power to escape samsara though after death. As a human living on earth, you are no different from any other human. YOu will still get sick and die.

 

 

 

Maybe Chris, Mantra68, should answer this... or perhaps someone on here is *VERY* advanced in Kunlun.

 

I've been reading all the very informative (thank you) Kunlun posts on here and I've see Chris post a few times about direct experience with our divine true nature such as this post:

 

"Beyond physical sensations and benefits, Kunlun can give you direct experience with your divine true nature. In this state answers to many of your questions become clear."

 

I interpret that as it's not permanent. I thought once the ego dies... you're done. No more pain, suffering, reincarnating etc. If followed through to the end, will Kunlun allow one to transcend the ego for good? Does Kunlun induce the ULTIMATE state of becomming the all, like the over-used metaphor of a drop dripping into the ocean to become the ocean?

 

Confused,

 

Dusty

[Mantra68]

Maybe Chris, Mantra68, should answer this... or perhaps someone on here is *VERY* advanced in Kunlun.

 

I've been reading all the very informative (thank you) Kunlun posts on here and I've see Chris post a few times about direct experience with our divine true nature such as this post:

 

"Beyond physical sensations and benefits, Kunlun can give you direct experience with your divine true nature. In this state answers to many of your questions become clear."

 

I interpret that as it's not permanent. I thought once the ego dies... you're done. No more pain, suffering, reincarnating etc. If followed through to the end, will Kunlun allow one to transcend the ego for good? Does Kunlun induce the ULTIMATE state of becomming the all, like the over-used metaphor of a drop dripping into the ocean to become the ocean?

 

Confused,

 

Dusty

It is not that reaching an enlightened state is particularly difficult. All it takes is surrender to the divine whilst doing your practice. It can happen in an instant.

 

The real challenge is coming back from that state and retaining the perspective throughout your day. After all, we have done this very thing by choosing to take an earthly life. Most of us run around confused.

 

We eventually end up buying into the illusion and forgetting our true nature.

 

To maintain recognition of our true nature is to retain an enlightened state.

Edited October 8, 2008 by Mantra68

[Trash Filter]

imo kunlun is almost exacly like qi gong,. Just do qi gong is same thing. I did have a wonderful experience once however with some of there seated exercises.

[SiliconValley]

[mat black]

[doc benway]

In light of the quotations of Ramana and other comments, what about living a human life?

 

There is a lot of discussion about abiding in the Self and what that entails and requires. Is that possible while attending one's profession and family, enjoying friends and relationships, developing physical skills and devoting oneself to hobbies and interests, and so forth? And if not, at what cost is all this? Why is it that we would need to sacrifice all of this? Will we not abide in the Self for all of eternity? In this brief human incarnation, is there a role to live the human illusion to the fullest?

[Aetherous]

"Beyond physical sensations and benefits, Kunlun can give you direct experience with your divine true nature. In this state answers to many of your questions become clear."

 

What people tell you can always be contested. Asking someone with experience whether the enlightened state lasts or doesn't last will mislead you, even if they tell you the complete truth of their experience. Reach the enlightened state yourself and find the truth. Until you do that, all answers are meaningless.

 

Some true answers can't be discussed without totally confusing people. It's not just a matter of paradox sometimes...sometimes the truth is truly mind blowing and simply cannot be conceptualized. Trying to explain it is futile. It's like someone describing their experience of chocolate to someone who has never tasted it. "So you're telling me it's creamy smooth stick to my tongue bittersweet...?" It will just make no sense. The true taste is indescribable. It must be tasted to be known.

 

The finger pointing at the moon appears to be pointing somewhere else entirely. Imagine yourself pointing at the moon and someone standing beside you...even if you try with all your might to point directly at the moon, by looking straight at your finger and lining it up perfectly, the person beside you will see it from a different angle and it will appear as if you're pointing at the stars or empty space instead.

 

So I guess the best kind of person to explain anything is someone who can put themselves exactly in the questioner's shoes, and then adjust their enlightened finger (descriptions) so that it makes sense to the unenlightened...who can do this?!

 

Anyway just some thoughts. All of this being said, I'm not there yet. But I can tell you one thing: it is possible to achieve an enlightened state and fall from it. Been there done that; through a different practice than kunlun. Maintaining it is the goal that I have.

 

Something entirely hilarious to someone that is enlightened.

[seekeroftruth]

 

Anyway just some thoughts. All of this being said, I'm not there yet. But I can tell you one thing: it is possible to achieve an enlightened state and fall from it. Been there done that; through a different practice than kunlun. Maintaining it is the goal that I have.

 

 

You can't leave us hanging like that.

 

Do tell. What was it like to "achieve an enlightened state and fall from it".

[Aetherous]

I don't really remember, it was years ago. Plus to describe what I do remember is super problematic. But I will do it anyway. When I write this, I'm sure many people will think the experience is contradictory to enlightenment. Even I think it's contradictory to my concept of enlightenment. Whatever, though. Enlightenment to me is a state where you lose the ego, and that's what this was.

 

To give some background: I was doing a somewhat self made practice where you lay down and don't move a muscle besides to breathe and swallow spit, until you reach enlightenment. I was inspired by stories of the Buddha's final night, and also a story from the Bodhidharma about a caged bird lying still. So I laid there and made sure I was conscious of my whole body, and didn't move at all for a few hours. Pain got worse and worse, and towards the end I truly thought I was going to die...I let go, let go, let go and let go...honestly facing my own death and saying "take me or enlighten me" and being 100% willing to die for it, and suddenly...

 

1) It was like my mind flipped inside out or exploded, then my perspective was entirely different than normal.

2) My awareness seemed to be huge, like encompassing the entire room or more.

3) Energy rushed through my body like a river, through the feet and out the head. At the time I had a faint impression that the energy was God and he was telling me without using words, "You aren't ready yet".

4) I was scared, and thoughts were racing through my mind. I remember trying to hold onto the state somehow yet being terrified.

5) The state lasted maybe 30 seconds.

6) When I came out of it, I couldn't tell if I had just been yelling and screaming or not. I was exhausted, and remained exhausted for like 3 weeks.

7) During it, this is the best way I could describe how I experienced everything: when I was breathing, it was as if the breath was breathing me. A sound that happened outside the room was happening to me. I didn't percieve things like, "I am listening to that sound". The sound was happening AT me. Now, to understand how there was still a me but it was an egoless state:

8) I could still identify myself as my body and all of that, but in the pure experience of it, there wasn't a self. Pretty hard to describe, remember what it was like, or even try to explain to myself, now. To put it simply and most truthfully: it's not what you think it is.

[Spectrum]

Fall into Enlightenment

[seekeroftruth]

I don't really remember, it was years ago. Plus to describe what I do remember is super problematic. But I will do it anyway. When I write this, I'm sure many people will think the experience is contradictory to enlightenment. Even I think it's contradictory to my concept of enlightenment. Whatever, though. Enlightenment to me is a state where you lose the ego, and that's what this was.

 

To give some background: I was doing a somewhat self made practice where you lay down and don't move a muscle besides to breathe and swallow spit, until you reach enlightenment. I was inspired by stories of the Buddha's final night, and also a story from the Bodhidharma about a caged bird lying still. So I laid there and made sure I was conscious of my whole body, and didn't move at all for a few hours. Pain got worse and worse, and towards the end I truly thought I was going to die...I let go, let go, let go and let go...honestly facing my own death and saying "take me or enlighten me" and being 100% willing to die for it, and suddenly...

 

1) It was like my mind flipped inside out or exploded, then my perspective was entirely different than normal.

2) My awareness seemed to be huge, like encompassing the entire room or more.

3) Energy rushed through my body like a river, through the feet and out the head. At the time I had a faint impression that the energy was God and he was telling me without using words, "You aren't ready yet".

4) I was scared, and thoughts were racing through my mind. I remember trying to hold onto the state somehow yet being terrified.

5) The state lasted maybe 30 seconds.

6) When I came out of it, I couldn't tell if I had just been yelling and screaming or not. I was exhausted, and remained exhausted for like 3 weeks.

7) During it, this is the best way I could describe how I experienced everything: when I was breathing, it was as if the breath was breathing me. A sound that happened outside the room was happening to me. I didn't percieve things like, "I am listening to that sound". The sound was happening AT me. Now, to understand how there was still a me but it was an egoless state:

8) I could still identify myself as my body and all of that, but in the pure experience of it, there wasn't a self. Pretty hard to describe, remember what it was like, or even try to explain to myself, now. To put it simply and most truthfully: it's not what you think it is.

 

Thank you very much Scott. _/\_

[SiliconValley]

"Flashes of the self are encouragement...to continue with steadfastness...but not Enlightenment. Enlightenment is liberation that never ceases or changes. It seems to always increase without bounds and so does the associated joy". - Aurobindo.

 

There is a similar statement in Katha branch of Yajurveda but I cannot recollect the exact verse at this point. It is the mind that "experiences" and "separates" and "recollects". But once it is dissolved, which indeed is enlightenment, it cannot re-surface.

Edited October 9, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Dave .]

Thank you very much Scott. _/\_

Yes, thank you.

[Aetherous]

"Flashes of the self are encouragement...to continue with steadfastness...but not Enlightenment. Enlightenment is liberation that never ceases or changes. It seems to always increase without bounds and so does the associated joy". - Aurobindo.

 

There is a similar statement in Katha branch of Yajurveda but I cannot recollect the exact verse at this point. It is the mind that "experiences" and "separates" and "recollects". But once it is dissolved, which indeed is enlightenment, it cannot re-surface. smile.gif

 

I believe that as well. What I experienced wasn't perfect and endless liberation. Just a glimpse.

[Loke]

Can anyone tell me the differece between "enlightenment" and this "yang body"?

What I see from my point of view is that there are two Taoistic(?) alignments, some

of you try to supress emotions to reach "enlightenment" and at least one of you is

collecting energi to build a "yang body".

I guess that what I call "supress emotions" is some kind of balance which is posible

to lose but a "yang body" is permanent.

 

upadated...

[Aetherous]

This isn't related to your question, Loke...

 

If you read this whole thing, it describes enlightenment really well:

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml

[Spectrum]

Progress moves forward while falling back.

[mat black]

This isn't related to your question, Loke...

 

If you read this whole thing, it describes enlightenment really well:

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml

 

Nice Scotty, I like this to help clarify things as well:

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw3ihxTZNTI

[ddilulo_06]

Thanks for all the responses. "I think" I have gotten a glimpse before:

 

I was severely depressed - contemplating suicide. At the time, life seemed like a struggle, like I was always working and never playing. I had let my capacity to enjoy life dwindle into self-pity and secretly (even to myself) enjoying being the victim.

 

I had been reading David Hawkins stuff at the time (GOOD stuff!) and I had just set my intention to surrender to God. Everything. It was like a mantra, then it became an attitude, and then a feeling. This happened over 3 days. I did nothing else - I was unemployed and to emotionally distraught for college.

 

I would say stuff like, "Lord, I surrender to you. Make me a flute of the divine song. Please, take me home..." etc etc. This is all I thought about for 3 days. My self-created pain allowed me to think about nothing else.

 

After the first day, instead of me doing the surrendering, I began to perceive what "I" was doing as "I" was being surrendered... seemed to be happening spontaneously.

 

Letting go more and more, it was like my consciousness floated up about a foot and a little behind my head and was there... just watching the body do it's thing. It was weird. "I" could "control" the body, or just let it do whatever. Really really weird but AMAZINGLY COOL! That's the best I can describe it.

 

I didn't feel any bliss or funny feelings in my body, by my perception was like... not in my body, while in about a 2 foot radius around the body's head...

 

It was as obvious as looking at an apple and saying "The apple is red." No faith needed.

 

I thought I was "home" but it was just temporary. It sure relieved suffering for the moment though!

 

Does this sound like a glimpse, or something else? Whatever it was....WOW! Hella cool.

Edited October 10, 2008 by ddilulo_06

[JustARandomPanda]

7) During it, this is the best way I could describe how I experienced everything: when I was breathing, it was as if the breath was breathing me. A sound that happened outside the room was happening to me. I didn't percieve things like, "I am listening to that sound". The sound was happening AT me. Now, to understand how there was still a me but it was an egoless state.

 

Interesting. It makes me think of that little inner homunculus Philosophers through the ages have argued about - what makes me, me?

 

Remember Descarte and his solution? I think, therefore I am? What happens when that ol me that identifies as my thoughts thinking "I think, therefore I am" simply fades away. I'm beginning to think maybe that's what is meant by this ego-less state. The part that thinks thoughts and identifies itself as "my" thoughts fades away and what's left is....enlightenment.

 

To put it on a strictly non-spiritual, non-enlightened and purely physiological level I wonder if it's allowing us to bypass the parts of our brain that gives rise to the Ego and instead directly access the parts that are so deep they formed prior to the Frontal Lobe's evolution (the part of the brain that gives rise to Consciousness - the part that knows that we know.)

Edited October 10, 2008 by SereneBlue

[SiliconValley]

[Aetherous]

Remember Descarte and his solution? I think, therefore I am? What happens when that ol me that identifies as my thoughts thinking "I think, therefore I am" simply fades away. I'm beginning to think maybe that's what is meant by this ego-less state. The part that thinks thoughts and identifies itself as "my" thoughts fades away and what's left is....enlightenment.

 

Maybe it doesn't fade away, but just somehow the perspective is changed so that it too is experienced as the same as all other objects of perception.