getting paralyzed from chi kung?

[h.uriahr]

is this possible? I mean I have a little trouble feeling my legs and I just drove home and I have difficulty in walking

When you are doing your meditation are you sitting by chance? If so how are you sitting?

 

Dude I have no idea what you're arguing about. I'm just trying to keep things truthful, and to help people understand that it can be dangerous.

I think it's like gun control sorta. You cant argue the dangers of firearms with an NRA member. Cool graphic by the way! Oh..and...I'm pro gun!!!

[h.uriahr]

Dude I have no idea what you're arguing about. I'm just trying to keep things truthful, and to help people understand that it can be dangerous.

Scotty, you are completely right. When dealing with circulation it can become dangerous, especially if it goes into your head and remains trapped. Now this is directed towards salaam, I'm not sure why this has completely skipped my mind but if you are sitting full or half lotus then you could be , which is common, giving yourself poor circulation, and maybe getting up too fast is causing some damage. I'm not sure about whether or not it could be from a blockage becoming clear or not. Maybe someone in your area would be kind enough to check you out, or you could see an acupuncturist aswell. Scotty, the hatchet is buried. Do you practice qigong?

[autopoetic]

The odds of qigong hurting you are about the same odds that I'm really clark kent and I can fly and shoot lasers from my eyes and pick up trains. The whole thing about "Oh it's sooooooo dangerous, beware!!!" is that it keeps the student teacher relationship strong and healthy. I'd place real money on the fact that maybe 2-3 people on this forum have actually experienced negative effects from qigong, even then they arent negative, just because you feel pain or dizziness, etc, it's 99% of the time a blockage and you are just undoing the blockage.

 

Where are you drawing your "odds" from? You and a handful of your buddies? Get real man. At least two people have on this forum have told you they hurt themselves seriously with this stuff. The person you are responding to (the original poster) seems to have been in a serious tangle. People in the Mo Pai tradition get seriously ill or die pretty frequently. At least two people in my lineage have hurt themselves very seriously. One a student who mixed practices (against her teacher's advice) and became psychotic. One was a very high level practitioner who did too much healing and gave himself serious liver damage. Bad shit happens all the time.

 

Maybe the odds are good that nothing bad will happen. But most of the people who do these practices go nowhere with them, and don't even reach a stage where they could hurt themselves.

 

I dont know how many times this has to beat into people's heads.

 

You can repeat yourself all you like. Until you come up with a real argument instead of "because I say so dammit" nobody is going to believe you.

[h.uriahr]

Where are you drawing your "odds" from? You and a handful of your buddies? Get real man. At least two people have on this forum have told you they hurt themselves seriously with this stuff. The person you are responding to (the original poster) seems to have been in a serious tangle. People in the Mo Pai tradition get seriously ill or die pretty frequently. At least two people in my lineage have hurt themselves very seriously. One a student who mixed practices (against her teacher's advice) and became psychotic. One was a very high level practitioner who did too much healing and gave himself serious liver damage. Bad shit happens all the time.

 

Maybe the odds are good that nothing bad will happen. But most of the people who do these practices go nowhere with them, and don't even reach a stage where they could hurt themselves.

You can repeat yourself all you like. Until you come up with a real argument instead of "because I say so dammit" nobody is going to believe you.

People in the Mo Pai tradition get ill? People in the Mo Pai lineage dont die frequently. All I'm going to say on the Mo Pai is that it's simple and it works. Nothing about the Mo Pai kills people. I'm not going to bother arguing the Mo Pai anymore. There are way more health issues that could cause a problem, not ncessarily his qigong practice. I forgot about that recent headline in the news about the deadly dangerous qigong practice. Please leave the talking to the big boys ok? I've never SAID IT WONT HURT YOU!! IT'S NOT DEADLY OR DANGEROUS ENOUGH TO CALL IT DANGEROUS. SKYDIVING COULD BE SAID TO BE DANGEROUS BUT IT'S NOT! With that said, I respect your opinion. I'm having some tea, care for some?

[h.uriahr]

People in the Mo Pai tradition get ill? People in the Mo Pai lineage dont die frequently. All I'm going to say on the Mo Pai is that it's simple and it works. Nothing about the Mo Pai kills people. I'm not going to bother arguing the Mo Pai anymore. There are way more health issues that could cause a problem, not ncessarily his qigong practice. I forgot about that recent headline in the news about the deadly dangerous qigong practice. Please leave the talking to the big boys ok? I've never SAID IT WONT HURT YOU!! IT'S NOT DEADLY OR DANGEROUS ENOUGH TO CALL IT DANGEROUS. SKYDIVING COULD BE SAID TO BE DANGEROUS BUT IT'S NOT! With that said, I respect your opinion. I'm having some tea, care for some?

I want to make it clear again, I'm not saying that qigong cannot be dangerous. It most certainly can. It's just not everyday that people experience problems. Some people may go there whole life without any negative effects. Keeping it on a respectful level. Also, dont believe everything you read in that Mo Pai book of yours.

[mjjbecker]

I want to make it clear again, I'm not saying that qigong cannot be dangerous. It most certainly can. It's just not everyday that people experience problems. Some people may go there whole life without any negative effects. Keeping it on a respectful level. Also, dont believe everything you read in that Mo Pai book of yours.

 

In 2001 I first met John Chang, at the invitation of Kostas, in his home in Indonesia. He was a very gracious host, demonstrating some of his ability and allowing us to sit at his table and eat with him. The evening before I left to go back to the UK, John Chang arranged to have people he knew bring keris to his home. This was for the benefit of Kostas, not myself, but many of us got to witness the keris move and hear their stories via Pak John.

 

Having studied qigong and neigong before I started the Mo Pai practice, I showed some of what I knew to Pak John. He remarked, 'it's like level 3'. Not a huge surprise but very interesting since the Mo Pai and the other school share a common link.

 

I count several people as friends who have been, or still are, direct students of Pak John. Direct, personal, students. From these people, I know that the training is potentially very dangerous, and that it has killed and seriously injured others. One student in Germany blew a valve in his heart. Others have had strokes.

 

That certain breathing exercises can-and do-cause serious injury and death has been recorded by others. Bruce Frantzis once wrote about Hung I Hsiang's brother dying of a lung haemorrhage caused by practicing White Crane qigong.

 

Several methods of qigong and neigong require considerable physical effort. Over exertion or incorrect practice can be dangerous. High blood pressure, and the conditions it can lead to, such as strokes, dizziness, haemorrhoids, impotence, are well documented side effects.

 

MPWay, whoever you are, I'm pleased you find some benefit to what you are doing. However, you are only studying at a low level-level 2 Mo Pai practices at the most. That given, you are nowhere near being 'someone who knows neigong, and knows it well'. You are at best a relative novice in a system where you can only ever make a very small amount of progress. Level 2 out of 72 levels.

 

There are enough people around here with plenty of knowledge and experience, so it ill behoves you to be condescending in the manner that you are.

 

I am making no claims of personal mastery, of being better than others, but I do know about the Mo Pai, and I speak from personal experience, and from reliable sources that I know to be personal students of John Chang. People on this forum know me from when I was a moderator on the old Wenwukuan forum. They know I have some connection to the Mo Pai. I post under my real name, not from behind a forum nom de guerre.

 

In summation, from the time I spent in the Mo Pai, from my experience and what I have been told by personal students of John Chang, it does not tally with your claims. Maybe one of the western students has shown you a little. That by no means makes you some kind of authority on the practice. I wish you well in your personal practice, but please stop this fiction that you are anything more than at best a beginner with a very small amount of knowledge.

 

The truth remains that there is only one living person, within this branch, who can claim to know the Mo Pai neigong and know it well, and that is John Chang.

 

I post this merely to clarify what is real, as opposed to opinion and/or fantasy. As mentioned before I have another school and another teacher now. The unceasing raking over of old ground is not productive to anyone.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[h.uriahr]

In 2001 I first met John Chang, at the invitation of Kostas, in his home in Indonesia. He was a very gracious host, demonstrating some of his ability and allowing us to sit at his table and eat with him. The evening before I left to go back to the UK, John Chang arranged to have people he knew bring keris to his home. This was for the benefit of Kostas, not myself, but many of us got to witness the keris move and hear their stories via Pak John.

 

Having studied qigong and neigong before I started the Mo Pai practice, I showed some of what I knew to Pak John. He remarked, 'it's like level 3'. Not a huge surprise but very interesting since the Mo Pai and the other school share a common link.

 

I count several people as friends who have been, or still are, direct students of Pak John. Direct, personal, students. From these people, I know that the training is potentially very dangerous, and that it has killed and seriously injured others. One student in Germany blew a valve in his heart. Others have had strokes.

 

That certain breathing exercises can-and do-cause serious injury and death has been recorded by others. Bruce Frantzis once wrote about Hung I Hsiang's brother dying of a lung haemorrhage caused by practicing White Crane qigong.

 

Several methods of qigong and neigong require considerable physical effort. Over exertion or incorrect practice can be dangerous. High blood pressure, and the conditions it can lead to, such as strokes, dizziness, haemorrhoids, impotence, are well documented side effects.

 

MPWay, whoever you are, I'm pleased you find some benefit to what you are doing. However, you are only studying at a low level-level 2 Mo Pai practices at the most. That given, you are nowhere near being 'someone who knows neigong, and knows it well'. You are at best a relative novice in a system where you can only ever make a very small amount of progress. Level 2 out of 72 levels.

 

There are enough people around here with plenty of knowledge and experience, so it ill behoves you to be condescending in the manner that you are.

 

I am making no claims of personal mastery, of being better than others, but I do know about the Mo Pai, and I speak from personal experience, and from reliable sources that I know to be personal students of John Chang. People on this forum know me from when I was a moderator on the old Wenwukuan forum. They know I have some connection to the Mo Pai. I post under my real name, not from behind a forum nom de guerre.

 

In summation, from the time I spent in the Mo Pai, from my experience and what I have been told by personal students of John Chang, it does not tally with your claims. Maybe one of the western students has shown you a little. That by no means makes you some kind of authority on the practice. I wish you well in your personal practice, but please stop this fiction that you are anything more than at best a beginner with a very small amount of knowledge.

 

The truth remains that there is only one living person, within this branch, who can claim to know the Mo Pai neigong and know it well, and that is John Chang.

 

I post this merely to clarify what is real, as opposed to opinion and/or fantasy. As mentioned before I have another school and another teacher now. The unceasing raking over of old ground is not productive to anyone.

 

Best,

 

Mike

Assumptions arent healthy Mike. Assumptions from excommunicated students are especially unhealthy Mike.

 

You dont know me. The only youre right on is the incorrectness in my statement about knowing neigong. Incorrect when put against John of course. Neigong is a commonly used term thanks to the documentary and of course Kosta's book. What most people think is neigong isnt, so of course, I do know neigong better than that of the average practitioner. Dont assume things.

 

Respectfully,

Steve aka Dick

[mjjbecker]

Assumptions arent healthy Mike. Assumptions from excommunicated students are especially unhealthy Mike.

 

You dont know me. The only youre right on is the incorrectness in my statement about knowing neigong. Incorrect when put against John of course. Neigong is a commonly used term thanks to the documentary and of course Kosta's book. What most people think is neigong isnt, so of course, I do know neigong better than that of the average practitioner. Dont assume things.

 

Respectfully,

Steve aka Dick

 

Steve from Brisbane? Former associate of Andreas? If so, then there is no 'assumption' at all regarding your training level. Even if you are not the above, there is still no 'assumption' regarding your level.

 

As usual when someone challenges your 'world view' you resort to attempts at belittling them. 'Excommunicated'. How droll.

 

Ah, lets not try and make this about me-because it is in fact about YOU and your claims.

 

As I have stated publicly, I was a student of Kostas in the Mo Pai. I have long since left and now study under a different school and different teacher. I have no argument with John Chang and as far as I know he has non with me. If I was in his home town I would go and pay my respects, (yes I do know where he lives). I still follow the oath I took in regards to the school. Otherwise, my life has moved on.

 

In the great scheme of the Mo Pai, I am persona non grata, just like you. Aside from a small group of Chinese ethnic origin students, who have access to the Mo Pai manual, everyone else is persona non grata. That group is led by the most senior student. John Chang is essentially retired. Not assumption, but fact.

 

I don't have to 'know you'. I know, from those who ARE and HAVE BEEN directly in contact with John Chang, that the most you can know is the level 2 methods. End of story. That makes you a 'beginner', whether your ego likes it or not. That is not assumption. That is fact.

 

You are right, a lot of people don't appreciate neigong from a Mo Pai stand point, but there are enough people out there, teaching publicly, that DO actually have some understanding of neigong. They can and do teach students to a level beyond Mo Pai level 2, (given the student actually has the ability to progress that far, and the inclination to make the effort). Not assumption, but fact.

 

However, if in fact you actually DO know more than level 2-and I suspect you may not even know that-then do feel free to post your full name and the actual details of your teacher, training and level.

 

You see, when you make claims to know much more than the rest of us 'mere mortals' people are going to ask these questions. And when you respond with vagaries and nonsense, people are just going to nod their heads knowingly and go some place more interesting instead.

 

As it stands, what I have posted are the plain and simple facts that I know. If the best you can do is refute them with comments about excommunication and 'don't make assumptions'...well, that says it all.

 

I've already spent more time than I wanted to on this. The facts are there for people to take, or leave, as they choose.

 

Cordially yours,

 

Mike

[h.uriahr]

Steve from Brisbane? Former associate of Andreas? If so, then there is no 'assumption' at all regarding your training level. Even if you are not the above, there is still no 'assumption' regarding your level.

 

As usual when someone challenges your 'world view' you resort to attempts at belittling them. 'Excommunicated'. How droll.

 

Ah, lets not try and make this about me-because it is in fact about YOU and your claims.

 

As I have stated publicly, I was a student of Kostas in the Mo Pai. I have long since left and now study under a different school and different teacher. I have no argument with John Chang and as far as I know he has non with me. If I was in his home town I would go and pay my respects, (yes I do know where he lives). I still follow the oath I took in regards to the school. Otherwise, my life has moved on.

 

In the great scheme of the Mo Pai, I am persona non grata, just like you. Aside from a small group of Chinese ethnic origin students, who have access to the Mo Pai manual, everyone else is persona non grata. That group is led by the most senior student. John Chang is essentially retired. Not assumption, but fact.

 

I don't have to 'know you'. I know, from those who ARE and HAVE BEEN directly in contact with John Chang, that the most you can know is the level 2 methods. End of story. That makes you a 'beginner', whether your ego likes it or not. That is not assumption. That is fact.

 

You are right, a lot of people don't appreciate neigong from a Mo Pai stand point, but there are enough people out there, teaching publicly, that DO actually have some understanding of neigong. They can and do teach students to a level beyond Mo Pai level 2, (given the student actually has the ability to progress that far, and the inclination to make the effort). Not assumption, but fact.

 

However, if in fact you actually DO know more than level 2-and I suspect you may not even know that-then do feel free to post your full name and the actual details of your teacher, training and level.

 

You see, when you make claims to know much more than the rest of us 'mere mortals' people are going to ask these questions. And when you respond with vagaries and nonsense, people are just going to nod their heads knowingly and go some place more interesting instead.

 

As it stands, what I have posted are the plain and simple facts that I know. If the best you can do is refute them with comments about excommunication and 'don't make assumptions'...well, that says it all.

 

I've already spent more time than I wanted to on this. The facts are there for people to take, or leave, as they choose.

 

Cordially yours,

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

I was wondering if you could maybe point those who are interested, like myself, in the right direction. You say that some people teach publicly a method similar to Mo Pai and was wondering if you could maybe say where they are or what region of the world or how to contact them? Oh and why does it seem like there's a Kosta vs Andreas vs Jim thing going on all the time?

[h.uriahr]

Steve from Brisbane? Former associate of Andreas? If so, then there is no 'assumption' at all regarding your training level. Even if you are not the above, there is still no 'assumption' regarding your level.

 

As usual when someone challenges your 'world view' you resort to attempts at belittling them. 'Excommunicated'. How droll.

 

Ah, lets not try and make this about me-because it is in fact about YOU and your claims.

 

As I have stated publicly, I was a student of Kostas in the Mo Pai. I have long since left and now study under a different school and different teacher. I have no argument with John Chang and as far as I know he has non with me. If I was in his home town I would go and pay my respects, (yes I do know where he lives). I still follow the oath I took in regards to the school. Otherwise, my life has moved on.

 

In the great scheme of the Mo Pai, I am persona non grata, just like you. Aside from a small group of Chinese ethnic origin students, who have access to the Mo Pai manual, everyone else is persona non grata. That group is led by the most senior student. John Chang is essentially retired. Not assumption, but fact.

 

I don't have to 'know you'. I know, from those who ARE and HAVE BEEN directly in contact with John Chang, that the most you can know is the level 2 methods. End of story. That makes you a 'beginner', whether your ego likes it or not. That is not assumption. That is fact.

 

You are right, a lot of people don't appreciate neigong from a Mo Pai stand point, but there are enough people out there, teaching publicly, that DO actually have some understanding of neigong. They can and do teach students to a level beyond Mo Pai level 2, (given the student actually has the ability to progress that far, and the inclination to make the effort). Not assumption, but fact.

 

However, if in fact you actually DO know more than level 2-and I suspect you may not even know that-then do feel free to post your full name and the actual details of your teacher, training and level.

 

You see, when you make claims to know much more than the rest of us 'mere mortals' people are going to ask these questions. And when you respond with vagaries and nonsense, people are just going to nod their heads knowingly and go some place more interesting instead.

 

As it stands, what I have posted are the plain and simple facts that I know. If the best you can do is refute them with comments about excommunication and 'don't make assumptions'...well, that says it all.

 

I've already spent more time than I wanted to on this. The facts are there for people to take, or leave, as they choose.

 

Cordially yours,

 

Mike

No not Steve from Brisbaine. Steve from the good ol US of A. It's a common thing to let rise the ego and throw out challenges eh? I suppose that at highnoon tomorrow we will be at the clocktower waiting to do our paces and then shoot to the death lol. Well Mike, I'm only just a tad disappointed with your 'challenge' of posting my full name ( no problem), but my teacher and training aswell? I suppose you'll want me to say John's name and location aswell? I've met John. I found him on my own merit. How do you think I came about my teacher? It's true that the school is somewhat closed. I'm not going into detail about the actual business of the Mo Pai but you are mistaken if you think the school isnt back in John's hands as it is. We can PM all you want but certain things about the Mo Pai arent for public business as you should very well know. However, being a student of Kosta it shows that you are just as disrespectful. For anyone reading this please excuse my insulting behaviour but you have to understand that certain things are being brought up when they shouldnt be, out of respect for John. I'm a dick, I understand this, as I see it there's a difference between a dick (myself) and an asshole (you). The controversy around the Mo Pai for those that arent aware is because of the ego surrounding assholes. I can be as big of a dick as you want. The fact of the matter is that just because you are no longer with the Mo Pai , and I'm sorry to hear that, doesnt mean that other people are just shut off from it too. I've been to see John just a teeny weeny bit more recent than back in 2001.

 

With respect, and I mean that.

Steve

 

Hi Mike,

I was wondering if you could maybe point those who are interested, like myself, in the right direction. You say that some people teach publicly a method similar to Mo Pai and was wondering if you could maybe say where they are or what region of the world or how to contact them? Oh and why does it seem like there's a Kosta vs Andreas vs Jim thing going on all the time?

I cant say for certain about the whole trio of terror lol but here's an opinion on the matter. Andreas got greedy and his ego hurt. Kosta has an incredible ego problem and if for no other reason, read his book and you can see that he has an ego problem. I know nothing of Jim. I think somewhere on the forum someone said he tried to charge money or something.

[mjjbecker]

No not Steve from Brisbaine. Steve from the good ol US of A. It's a common thing to let rise the ego and throw out challenges eh? I suppose that at highnoon tomorrow we will be at the clocktower waiting to do our paces and then shoot to the death lol. Well Mike, I'm only just a tad disappointed with your 'challenge' of posting my full name ( no problem), but my teacher and training aswell? I suppose you'll want me to say John's name and location aswell? I've met John. I found him on my own merit. How do you think I came about my teacher? It's true that the school is somewhat closed. I'm not going into detail about the actual business of the Mo Pai but you are mistaken if you think the school isnt back in John's hands as it is. We can PM all you want but certain things about the Mo Pai arent for public business as you should very well know. However, being a student of Kosta it shows that you are just as disrespectful. For anyone reading this please excuse my insulting behaviour but you have to understand that certain things are being brought up when they shouldnt be, out of respect for John. I'm a dick, I understand this, as I see it there's a difference between a dick (myself) and an asshole (you). The controversy around the Mo Pai for those that arent aware is because of the ego surrounding assholes. I can be as big of a dick as you want. The fact of the matter is that just because you are no longer with the Mo Pai , and I'm sorry to hear that, doesnt mean that other people are just shut off from it too. I've been to see John just a teeny weeny bit more recent than back in 2001.

 

With respect, and I mean that.

Steve

I cant say for certain about the whole trio of terror lol but here's an opinion on the matter. Andreas got greedy and his ego hurt. Kosta has an incredible ego problem and if for no other reason, read his book and you can see that he has an ego problem. I know nothing of Jim. I think somewhere on the forum someone said he tried to charge money or something.

 

I have no ego invested in this, simply a desire for the facts to be told.

 

Being a teacher of English, I should bear in mind that British and American interpretations differ. My bad.

 

By 'details', I mean the name of your teacher and what level you are studying at, not John Chang's Indonesian name, address, and the actual details of the training method.

 

Nowhere have I shown disrespect to the school or John Chang. I don't need a lecture on such from you, especially given the manner of your behaviour in public. Taking the name of the school as your forum name, calling your teacher by his first name in public, behaving like, and I quote you, a 'dick', while claiming to represent the school. Claiming to 'know neigong, and know it well', when in fact you are a rank beginner.

 

John Chang in person is one of the most polite, humble, individuals I have ever met. You and your behaviour show him, his school and his example no respect whatsoever. You know ego, and you know it well, but that is about it.

 

It is a shame you cannot discuss issues without resorting to name calling and pitiful attempts to belittle. Again, that is your problem and no one elses.

 

Fine, so you claim to be a student of John Chang. Good for you.

 

You still haven't given us your full name, (you did say it would not be a problem).

 

You still haven't explained how you are seemingly unaware of the dangers of training, while those within the school are. Given what has happened, it is remarkable that you claimed there were no dangers whatsoever to the training.

 

You still sidestep the issue of the limited level that you, or anyone else who is not going to be the headmaster, can study to. If John Chang would not teach Jim, who by all accounts was a dedicated and capable student, level three, how far will you get? The school is a closed door if you are seeking 'enlightenment'.

 

As mentioned, I have another teacher and another school now, so there is nothing to be 'sorry' about.

 

As for Kostas, Andreas and Jim, perhaps you should reserve judgement as it seems you have not had the opportunity to encounter any of them in any shape or form.

 

Yours Cordially,

 

Mike

[h.uriahr]

I have no ego invested in this, simply a desire for the facts to be told.

 

Being a teacher of English, I should bear in mind that British and American interpretations differ. My bad.

 

By 'details', I mean the name of your teacher and what level you are studying at, not John Chang's Indonesian name, address, and the actual details of the training method.

 

Nowhere have I shown disrespect to the school or John Chang. I don't need a lecture on such from you, especially given the manner of your behaviour in public. Taking the name of the school as your forum name, calling your teacher by his first name in public, behaving like, and I quote you, a 'dick', while claiming to represent the school. Claiming to 'know neigong, and know it well', when in fact you are a rank beginner.

 

John Chang in person is one of the most polite, humble, individuals I have ever met. You and your behaviour show him, his school and his example no respect whatsoever. You know ego, and you know it well, but that is about it.

 

It is a shame you cannot discuss issues without resorting to name calling and pitiful attempts to belittle. Again, that is your problem and no one elses.

 

Fine, so you claim to be a student of John Chang. Good for you.

 

You still haven't given us your full name, (you did say it would not be a problem).

 

You still haven't explained how you are seemingly unaware of the dangers of training, while those within the school are. Given what has happened, it is remarkable that you claimed there were no dangers whatsoever to the training.

 

You still sidestep the issue of the limited level that you, or anyone else who is not going to be the headmaster, can study to. If John Chang would not teach Jim, who by all accounts was a dedicated and capable student, level three, how far will you get? The school is a closed door if you are seeking 'enlightenment'.

 

As mentioned, I have another teacher and another school now, so there is nothing to be 'sorry' about.

 

As for Kostas, Andreas and Jim, perhaps you should reserve judgement as it seems you have not had the opportunity to encounter any of them in any shape or form.

 

Yours Cordially,

 

Mike

Since the mo pai training methods arent posted here by you or anyone else why would you expect anyone else to post them or methods similar to the mo pai? The same goes for his teacher aswell. If you've found a new teacher why you dont post your teachers name? I've asked you for advice before and all you seem to do is ignore which is fine because it's your business who you help but I dont see the reason for him posting all this information when you wont either. Even I, a mere bystander, can see that theres alot of secrecy around the mo pai and other methods. In the book magus of java, John says there are other masters some even higher than himself so it's not impossible to find them, if there's any truth to the book. Also, he says its his opinion about the trio. Not fact. I'm not standing up for anybody but even I can see through the arguements. I also dont see you putting your full name either and for that matter who would put their fullname, full name of their master and the full blown training aswell, if it's that shrouded in secrecy? I dont even put my full name and I have nothing to hide. I enjoy the anonomousness of the forum.

[mjjbecker]

Since the mo pai training methods arent posted here by you or anyone else why would you expect anyone else to post them or methods similar to the mo pai? The same goes for his teacher aswell. If you've found a new teacher why you dont post your teachers name? I've asked you for advice before and all you seem to do is ignore which is fine because it's your business who you help but I dont see the reason for him posting all this information when you wont either. Even I, a mere bystander, can see that theres alot of secrecy around the mo pai and other methods. In the book magus of java, John says there are other masters some even higher than himself so it's not impossible to find them, if there's any truth to the book. Also, he says its his opinion about the trio. Not fact. I'm not standing up for anybody but even I can see through the arguements. I also dont see you putting your full name either and for that matter who would put their fullname, full name of their master and the full blown training aswell, if it's that shrouded in secrecy? I dont even put my full name and I have nothing to hide. I enjoy the anonomousness of the forum.

 

If you are going to quote and then criticise what someone writes, you should read it properly first:

By 'details', I mean the name of your teacher and what level you are studying at, not John Chang's Indonesian name, address, and the actual details of the training method.

 

Given the claims made by MPWay, I consider the questions regarding his teacher, (who would be someone within the same line as John Chang, as I am-I have not been 'kicked out'), his level, (he made the claim of 'knowing neigong, and knowing it well'), and his name, (comes back to the claims of being someone who knows more than everyone else), quite legitimate. My own association with the Mo Pai I have made clear. It is therefore quid pro quo. Regarding my current teacher and study, that is wholly irrelevant to this matter. We are discussing the Mo Pai and claims related to it.

 

You are not a 'mere bystander' by your own admission. Your are someone who is unhappy because I will not discuss things with you that you want to know. Yes, you have sent me several PM's and I have not responded, because of what you ask and also the way you ask.

 

Not once have you signed your messages with your name, made any kind of effort to introduce yourself, bothered with any basic social niceties. I don't know you from Adam, yet you want me to discuss individuals and information regarding the Mo Pai. No.

 

The same applies to other schools. I'm not sending someone along to another teacher whom I have not the slightest clue about. It would be remarkably bad mannered to do so.

 

Fine, you want to be anonymous and not bother with the customary introductions and pleasantries. That is your choice. In Asia, such things tend to be a prerequisite. In the west they are simply good manners.

 

My name is in my signature line, quite clear for any and all to see.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[宁]

Quote:

 

I HAVE AN EGO PROBLEM?? WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM!

YOU HAVE AN EGO PROBLEM!

YOU-TOO-HAVE-AN-EGO-PROBLEM...

 

sounds like a bad gangsta toon, gentlemen.

 

please, bow, say you're sorry, and get along. we among men can't see it, but if girls are watching, IT LOOKS SO DAMN BAD... imagine the consequences

[h.uriahr]

Quote:

 

I HAVE AN EGO PROBLEM?? WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM!

YOU HAVE AN EGO PROBLEM!

YOU-TOO-HAVE-AN-EGO-PROBLEM...

 

sounds like a bad gangsta toon, gentlemen.

 

please, bow, say you're sorry, and get along. we among men can't see it, but if girls are watching, IT LOOKS SO DAMN BAD... imagine the consequences

Noone said anything about girls WTF MAN??!!!!

[宁]

Shash!... They might hear you...

[h.uriahr]

If you are going to quote and then criticise what someone writes, you should read it properly first:

By 'details', I mean the name of your teacher and what level you are studying at, not John Chang's Indonesian name, address, and the actual details of the training method.

 

Given the claims made by MPWay, I consider the questions regarding his teacher, (who would be someone within the same line as John Chang, as I am-I have not been 'kicked out'), his level, (he made the claim of 'knowing neigong, and knowing it well'), and his name, (comes back to the claims of being someone who knows more than everyone else), quite legitimate. My own association with the Mo Pai I have made clear. It is therefore quid pro quo. Regarding my current teacher and study, that is wholly irrelevant to this matter. We are discussing the Mo Pai and claims related to it.

 

You are not a 'mere bystander' by your own admission. Your are someone who is unhappy because I will not discuss things with you that you want to know. Yes, you have sent me several PM's and I have not responded, because of what you ask and also the way you ask.

 

Not once have you signed your messages with your name, made any kind of effort to introduce yourself, bothered with any basic social niceties. I don't know you from Adam, yet you want me to discuss individuals and information regarding the Mo Pai. No.

 

The same applies to other schools. I'm not sending someone along to another teacher whom I have not the slightest clue about. It would be remarkably bad mannered to do so.

 

Fine, you want to be anonymous and not bother with the customary introductions and pleasantries. That is your choice. In Asia, such things tend to be a prerequisite. In the west they are simply good manners.

 

My name is in my signature line, quite clear for any and all to see.

 

Best,

 

Mike

Mikie buddy....hand smacks forehead...I say puppy you hear vomit...I say washington you hear canadian bacon. I'm having difficulty trying to figure out why you cant put what I'm saying together and form meaning. The relevance of my teacher's name is on the level with knowing John's real name, or your actual teachers name. John himself pointed me in the direction of my teacher. Let's say that I gave you his name, you wont get anything on google with it lol. I'm not giving his name for the same reason I'm not giving Johns real name, or location! As for my level? Just completed level 3. We all have the same abilities it's just deligence and determination that seperate the rest of us. On another note, John can and will train westerners to a certain point. You assume WAY TO MUCH Mr Mike. Yeah youve been kicked out because by definition if he didnt kick you out he would still train you wouldnt he but he doesnt???? Kicked out bud. Not your fault necessarily as everyone gets the boot at some point.

 

My name is in my signature line, quite clear for any and all to see.

 

Best,

 

Steve

[Aetherous]

[h.uriahr]

It's not polite to roll your eyes SHEESH If youre gonna roll your eyes atleast throw these on

[mjjbecker]

Mikie buddy....hand smacks forehead...I say puppy you hear vomit...I say washington you hear canadian bacon. I'm having difficulty trying to figure out why you cant put what I'm saying together and form meaning. The relevance of my teacher's name is on the level with knowing John's real name, or your actual teachers name. John himself pointed me in the direction of my teacher. Let's say that I gave you his name, you wont get anything on google with it lol. I'm not giving his name for the same reason I'm not giving Johns real name, or location! As for my level? Just completed level 3. We all have the same abilities it's just deligence and determination that seperate the rest of us. On another note, John can and will train westerners to a certain point. You assume WAY TO MUCH Mr Mike. Yeah youve been kicked out because by definition if he didnt kick you out he would still train you wouldnt he but he doesnt???? Kicked out bud. Not your fault necessarily as everyone gets the boot at some point.

 

My name is in my signature line, quite clear for any and all to see.

 

Best,

 

Steve

 

Thank you for confirming what I suspected, i.e. to put it politely you are living in a fantasy world with no actual connection with the Mo Pai.

 

No point in furthering this conversation.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[Sloppy Zhang]

Soooooooooooooooo......

 

What are some practices that a beginner can do to get started that aren't too dangerous?

 

Pretty much what I do is zen meditation which I learned from my karate days, then some qigong related to tai chi (mostly simple stuff, mostly breathing/stretching like stuff, simple movement, learned it from Yang Jwing-Ming's book on Tai Chi 24 and 48 forms, as well as his book on Yang style Tai Chi), and the tai chi form itself, of course (though I few that more on martial arts terms and less with qi and energy work, even though I keep it in mind as well). I've been trying to get lotus position down when I meditate, and work on lotus position pretty much every day, though I can't always hold it for a long time

 

So what's something else I can do in addition to all that?

[h.uriahr]

Thank you for confirming what I suspected, i.e. to put it politely you are living in a fantasy world with no actual connection with the Mo Pai.

 

No point in furthering this conversation.

 

Best,

 

Mike

I found him on my own, not because my teacher had the connections. Your arguement is illogical and makes no sense. For the same reason I , and I certainly hope you aswell, wont display Johns name or actual location is the same reason I wont display my current master's name or location. I wouldnt have succeeded had it not been for John. Go figure that the only reason people think it's closed is because of Andreas. I completed level 2 under the wing of John. From that point on he showed me another avenue. I'm saying nothing more to you, as chicks are watchin

 

I can use my first name too,

 

Steve

[Sloppy Zhang]

I found him on my own, not because my teacher had the connections. Your arguement is illogical and makes no sense. For the same reason I , and I certainly hope you aswell, wont display Johns name or actual location is the same reason I wont display my current master's name or location. I wouldnt have succeeded had it not been for John. Go figure that the only reason people think it's closed is because of Andreas. I completed level 2 under the wing of John. From that point on he showed me another avenue. I'm saying nothing more to you, as chicks are watchin

 

I can use my first name too,

 

Steve

 

Aight, look Mr. Steve/Mr. MPWay, I just figure I should point out some of the things that I've seen as an observer, but first of all, I'd like to mention a little bit about my background...

 

Several years ago I was active in the martial arts community on youtube. And by that I really just mean I'd hang out, and see what videos other martial artists had up and talk about them with the poster and other members, giving opinions/critiques/etc. Every once in a while some guy would come on and say stuff like, "I don't know what u guyz r talkin about that guy waz week u r all noobs thinking ur better than u really r"

 

So then we'd talk to that person and ask why he thought that way, things like that. Most of the answers we got were along those lines. "No that's not real martial arts." and "oh you think that guy is good/bad but you don't REALLY know what good/bad is. I haven't even studied for that long but I know what good/bad is I laugh when I hear ur commentz bcuz u gaiz dunno wut is really good/bad" (good or bad depending on the situation)

 

So naturally we asked, "hey what style do you train in? What lineage? What teacher?" and naturally they would say things along the line of either "what r u gonna stalk me ur a gay stalker" or "you can't find him on youtube/google so I won't even bother." Those people would continue flaming and all that jazz and it was pretty obvious there were there to just slam some guys.

 

Now some guys had some variations... like they would come in all hating and just slamming stuff, terrible grammar and punctuation, but then when a conversation would drag out they'd "clean up" their comments a bit, but all in all not say much.

 

Why am I bringing this up?

 

Well as an observer, I must say first off that I don't train in Mo Pai or any other lineage like that. I'm new to self cultivation and still have a lot to go even on the basics, so I don't think I am biased when I say that there are LOTS of similarities between your posts in this thread and the haters that you encounter on youtube.

 

Several of your initial posts here seemed borderline inflammatory. You made rash generalizations, and even bordered on ridiculing people with statements such as "you guys who think you know qigong don't even know qigong" (kind of like the haters that said "you noobs dont kno wut reel MA is"...)

 

Then when we ask for clarification on your training/lineage you are hesitant to give it, and only after several other posts in which a system has been outlined for you do you post where you are in that system that has been outlined for you... I must also add that I'm a college student, and while I enjoy studying things for the sake of learning, there are times when I don't have as much time to study something as I want, so I have to b/s some things. I don't want to brag... but with a good imagination/improvisation/acting skill I've gotten pretty good at it. I know stalling and fishing for info from the other person in order to construct a statement when I see it. And the way that you put off answering certain questions seems... fishy.

 

On top of that, you repeatedly mention that you found your teacher through your own means, but in the same paragraphs you mention how you found your teacher through Mr. Chang... then go back to how it is all your work.

 

Now I'm not calling you a liar, I'm going to be straight up with that. For all I know you've been on a path for a long time and have done lots of things so naturally you may refer to one thing and then refer to another, merely pointing out two separate points on your journey.

 

But from an objective and unbiased standpoint, there are some things that raise suspicion, and I just thought that you should know what some of the observers might think.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[Spectrum]

It's all about the girls though...

[Aetherous]

Yes it is.