JessOBrien Posted October 7, 2008 Hi all, My friend and I are starting up a Chi Gung class here in the Bay Area (California), that will focus on the set known as Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body as taught by BK Frantzis. Anybody here worked with it before? Any thoughts on it? I've spent quite some time on it and found it to be quite useful on different levels. But particularly as a shortcut to power training for martial arts. Take care, Jess O Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pranaman Posted October 7, 2008 I got the book a few months ago. I've just been belly breathing since. Maybe sometime i'll do it as a warmup. What benefits or changes have you noticed using it? I'm particularly interested in it as a shortcut to power training for martial arts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spectrum Posted October 7, 2008 (edited) I'm particularly interested in it as a shortcut to power training for martial arts. Start there the rest will happen naturally. Apply to work first then rest after. Let go of the concept of power seek coordination and harmony, power follows like musical crecsendos. Edited October 7, 2008 by Spectrum Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted October 7, 2008 I've just started this a few days ago. I ordered the matching DVD to go with it as seeing him give such extremely detailed pointers helped me understand the book instructions better. I'm surprised at how difficult the Standing and Dissolving is for me. I can only last five minutes standing then I switch to sitting. And I never would've guessed I was such an uptight, anal retentive person until I started. I'm so uptight everywhere it feels like my muscles are frozen solid. I get the depressed feeling it may be years before I figure out how to dissolve to water...let alone air. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted October 7, 2008 I've just started this a few days ago. I ordered the matching DVD to go with it as seeing him give such extremely detailed pointers helped me understand the book instructions better. I'm surprised at how difficult the Standing and Dissolving is for me. I can only last five minutes standing then I switch to sitting. And I never would've guessed I was such an uptight, anal retentive person until I started. I'm so uptight everywhere it feels like my muscles are frozen solid. I get the depressed feeling it may be years before I figure out how to dissolve to water...let alone air. make sure your knees aren't locked when you do the standing. They should be relaxed and open Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JessOBrien Posted October 7, 2008 Glad you guys are liking the book. Agreed that the standing and dissolving is harder than it looks. But over a few months it gets easier, watch out though it can be addictive! Relax each part one at a time. I think of it as a way to get to know yourself a bit better. You'll also start to notice your mind chattering, but that's another story. Let go of tension wherever you find it, that's the main point of dissolving. The next stage is the simple Cloud Hands movement. You can use the one in the book, or from your own Tai Chi form, either way. The point is to combine the Dissolving work with the simple movement. This creates a whole new level of difficulty. It's amazing how fast we get sidetracked from something as simple as feeling inside ourselves! Trippy how our lives are so geared toward mental activity that our basic physical body becomes so distant to our experience. Again, over time it becomes much easier. My feeling is that by consciously dissolving and letting go of hardness, it becomes unconscious. So eventually you let go of stuff before it even gets stuck. I've experienced this a small amount in my life. It becomes your first line of defense against habitual tension and clenching, etc. You tend to notice more how you feel inside, which is a good thing. Kumar teaches in a very detailed manner. You'll see in the DVD that he goes into pretty absurd levels of detail. At first it's too much. But over time you can spend a while with each alignment or requirement and they become more useful. It's easy to get stuck in a sense of it being too hard though. Just take it easy, and spend a few minutes a day on it, is my advice. -Jess O Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JessOBrien Posted October 8, 2008 The martial aspects of Opening the Energy Gates can be quite fruitful. On one level, combining nei gung principles with the various exercises just plain increases your ability to concentrate. So if you can keep your attention on breathing while at the same time standing or moving, that in itself can help strengthen your concentration. The more complex it gets the more you train your mind to stay present. This in itself is a huge part of the Internal approach to fighting. Under the stress of full contact fighting, if you can stay 1% more awake than the other guy, it's a big advantage. So by training that during nei gung on your own, you are creating the ability to increase your mind's strength under pressure. Of course when the punch lands on your face, it gets a LOT harder! And at first you tend to lose while attempting to do this. But again, over time it really builds on itself. Another level is utilizing the Dissolving work while standing, moving and then fighting. It's very very hard to do at first. Keeping the flow of releasing tension going while you move fast means that it must be programmed in on automatic. If you have to concentrate on the dissolving during a match, you will get clobbered. However, the irony is that by trying this stuff in sparring, you'll actually vastly increase your ability to do it solo. Like swimming in the deep end, it's scary and you might drown. But if you don't, the shallow, mellow end of the pool gets way easier to deal with. That's why I like to say that martial arts is a shortcut to Chi Gung. If you can apply this stuff while fighting, doing it solo is much easier. Dissolving during sparring is a whole new level of difficulty. However, if you can get the dissolving going, every little bit helps. It helps loosen up and release the weight of your body, so that each movement becomes more full, heavy and higher impact. Another key aspect is that over time it creates a kind of soft Iron Body. When you get hit, you apply the dissolving to that area. You release, soften, let go of and "melt" the pain of the strikes. It's weird but the kinetic energy of the strike then kind of sticks to your field. It's like being a vampire, when they hit you, you use dissolving to "steal" their energy. It sounds crazy, but if your mind is able to stay present during the impact, you can absorb and keep a small little bit of their energy when they hit. Of course, if it's a strong enough strike to really hurt you, you can't absorb it. But if you are able to stay with it, I think dissolving is a great way to decrease the pain of being struck, and indeed make it your own advantage. This is just the tip of the iceberg really. I've learned a lot from this set, and there is much more to it. Then when you get to the swings, you get into the offensive power, which can be very very useful. Just a few thoughts, take care, Jess O Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pietro Posted October 8, 2008 I would like to add to everything Jess said, that next year, from the 26th March to the 8th of April there will be an instructor workshop on opening the energy gates in Brighton. From what I heard no one ever, so far, had become an instructor in opening the energy gates with Bruce if he did not know the whole set before. (In contrast with *ehm* the Dragon and Tiger set, for example). The opening the energy gates instructor training is given every few years. On the other side it is not unreasonable to study now with Jess, and then come to the instructor training, and become an instructor yourself. Cheers, Pietro Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted October 8, 2008 I've had this book for a while, came across an old version of it in the library of all places For me it was good reference...I like cloud hands et al but dont practice the stuff regularly because I've got plenty of other stuff on my plate. Best thing I got from this book was longevity breathing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Prince... Posted October 8, 2008 I had some questions about this book. I've got a lot of books on my table (literally) so I've pushed Opening the Energy Gates to the side. My Taiji lineage came through Vietnam and it's different from what I've seen online from other Yang style practitioners, so I had a question about the Cloud Hands that Kumar has in the book. I may pick up the DVD so that I can actually see how the exercises are supposed to look in the future. If I were still in San Diego, I would definitely drive up the coast to attend the workshops. I don't consider myself a Taoist, but if I move back to the West Coast, I definitely want to learn Kumar's Neigong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted October 8, 2008 I've just started this a few days ago. I ordered the matching DVD to go with it as seeing him give such extremely detailed pointers helped me understand the book instructions better. I'm surprised at how difficult the Standing and Dissolving is for me. I can only last five minutes standing then I switch to sitting. And I never would've guessed I was such an uptight, anal retentive person until I started. I'm so uptight everywhere it feels like my muscles are frozen solid. I get the depressed feeling it may be years before I figure out how to dissolve to water...let alone air. I found standing difficult and well boring. What really helped was listening to a certain guided meditation. The Archaeous series by Rawn Clark. It goes through a 4 element sequence where the legs & waist are earth, belly/gut are water, lungs to shoulder are air, head is air/awareness. By moving slowly into the feelings from solidity to lightness standing 15 minutes became much much easier. The archaeous series is free at ABARDONCOMPANION.COM. Its part of a series, its not intended to be done standing, but works very well. Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daoseeker Posted October 9, 2008 Hi all, My friend and I are starting up a Chi Gung class here in the Bay Area (California), that will focus on the set known as Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body as taught by BK Frantzis. Anybody here worked with it before? Any thoughts on it? I've spent quite some time on it and found it to be quite useful on different levels. But particularly as a shortcut to power training for martial arts. Take care, Jess O I practiced Zhanzhuang from the Yiquan tradition and never really knew how to improve... Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt book helped a lot for working on the outer and inner structure. But the real breakthrough came from a weekend course with Bruce about Neigong and following up with his book. I could do standing and dissolving for 15 min after a month of training and would practice Bagua circle walking afterwards for 30 min. The double effect of Zhanzhuang and afterwards practicing basic training of Bagua or Taichi is breathtaking! I consider the dissolving practice in general the most useful tool for every basic training of Neigong or martial arts - also as a precondition of non-moving energy practice. My Bagua circle walking would squeeze and spiral Qi through all parts of my body after the standing and dissolving training - much more powerful than before. I would even sweat at my toes and smell like a bump after a while...... it's a treasure indeed! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JessOBrien Posted October 10, 2008 Very glad to see the responses here! I think this set is a solid one and the book is a good resource, with a mix of inspiring tales and concrete instructions for forming a foundation of chi gung practice. Also good to see people using it in conjunction with martial arts. Kumar did a lot of martial arts and worked hard at it. All of his chi gung material meshes really well with martial arts. Working with him opened my eyes a bit to how martial arts and spirituality can work together. At first I just wanted to be good and be able to fight. Once I could do that a bit, I realized that the fighting was a way to make my mind and body work under pressure, it became a fascinating test to see how awake I could be under difficult conditions. And it continues to be a very challenging process. One thing about these "internal" arts that I always love is how they mesh with each other so well. The skills transfer in useful ways and one can grow within their arts as they grow older and "wiser". Or so I'd hope!! More to post on this set, will do so soon. Take care, Jess O Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted January 8, 2009 To me, this is where the only real progress happens. You have to sit with it until it transforms. Easier said than done, but nothing else does it (in my opinion). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taiji Bum Posted January 8, 2009 With me it was the shoulders. The different places we hold tension tell us alot about our personal issues too. I think Louise Hay writes about that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yuen Biao Posted January 8, 2009 With me it was the shoulders. Are we talking Zhan Zhuang? If so I would agree on the shoulders and maybe the elbows, the energy just starts to burn after awhile and becomes too powerful and I can't seem to dissolve it. Any recommendations of what to do or focus upon? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted January 8, 2009 Relax and correct posture. Tough when everything's burning, but find your way through that and there's usually plenty of reserves underneath to keep going. Dont let the mind win that battle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 8, 2009 Relax and correct posture. Tough when everything's burning, but find your way through that and there's usually plenty of reserves underneath to keep going. Dont let the mind win that battle The hardest for me is the "inner demons" that keep popping up...latent unfulfilled desires, psychoses that we suppress deep inside ourselves... I personally like Bruce's two books on the Water Method Meditations (Relaxing into your being and Inner Stillness)...and reading him was like listening to my teacher telling us stuff in the class...lots of overlaps between the two systems. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted January 9, 2009 Hi there! I found that in standing it goes through long periods of plateaus where there seems nothing to be happening ,for days and weeks. I just kept on practicing,not looking for results,taking all the experiences kind of not to seriously. Then came really strong experiences,especially with the releasing downward energyflow,new kinds of energetic experiences and a sense what the sinking Chi could feel like. Find it very important to keep the space in the body well opened and thus let the energy sink through those opened spaces. Sometimes standing for me is a drag,sometimes its a smooth wonderful experience. Never mind,just persevere without straining your body,your energy,your mind... the 70% rule What I really find tricky is dissolving into the space around my physical body,seems my awareness don`t reach this far. But maybe thats on the next level. I really can imagine now that a continuous standing practice can make one v e r y strong, and be t h e great help to find ones internal connections. After practicing B.K.Frantzis`Neigung for awhile now I can only say I love it. An addict. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taiji Bum Posted January 9, 2009 Are we talking Zhan Zhuang? If so I would agree on the shoulders and maybe the elbows, the energy just starts to burn after awhile and becomes too powerful and I can't seem to dissolve it. Any recommendations of what to do or focus upon? I noticed the shoulders during seated meditation first. I'd sit for as short a period as 20 minutes and they would end up around my ears. Standing meditation was a leg shaking problem mostly until I figured out it was a balance exercise and not a strength one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yuen Biao Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) I see the pose you're speaking of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang Do you focus on holding your arms from the shoulder blades/upper back? What about gently massaging the energy channels in your hand? Yes the 'classic' posture, there are many others, such as the hands/palms facing outwards. I sometimes begin with a gentle massage (or tap) of the meridians along the body. Shoulders are a hot spot on my body too. It was my number one irritation when I started chi gung. My standing warmup pose is just like the guy on the right in this pic: http://fiveelementarts.com/premium/images/...ng_standing.gif I used to stand in the Wuji also but prefer sitting now, then move on to Qigong and Zhan Zhuang postures then Taijiquan. I noticed the shoulders during seated meditation first. I'd sit for as short a period as 20 minutes and they would end up around my ears. Standing meditation was a leg shaking problem mostly until I figured out it was a balance exercise and not a strength one. I'm not too bad with sitting it's mostly when I stand in Zhan Zhuang, I'm trying to dissolve that energy. My legs are very strong (balanced) from over ten years training in Taijiquan. Edited January 9, 2009 by Yuen Biao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jesse Posted January 9, 2009 practicing B.K.Frantzis`Neigung for awhile now I can only say I love it. An addict. I completely second your quote Harold, I love it also Jesse Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JessOBrien Posted January 13, 2009 Wow, cool that many people enjoy standing chi gung. I think it's a wonderful training method, with many benefits. In BK Frantzis's system, there is a progression within the training of the Nei Gung sets. There are three main sets, Opening the Energy Gates, Heaven & Earth, and Gods Playing in the Clouds. Each set is used to explore the territory of sixteen different elements of nei gung. Once you've completed training within those sixteen aspects of nei gung, you then move on to internal martial arts, healing and or meditation in order to work with these nei gung elements, to refine them and use them for various purposes. You can use the nei gung to improve your fighting ability, your healing ability or ability to meditate and uncover your inner nature. Opening the Energy Gates is the first main set, and it includes standing, the swings and a spine stretch. This set works with the nei gung elements of energy channels, dissolving, lengthening and twisting among others. Once you have the basics down, you move on to the second half of Opening the Energy Gates, which is known as Spiraling Energy Body. It's not really a set of it's own, it's just the second, more difficult half of the Energy Gates set. Some consider the Spiraling work to be super advanced, but originally it was taught immediately after the student got the basics of dissolving. Dissolving within the Energy Gates set teaches you how to ground and release stuck energy in your body. If you can do this, then you always have a way of ensuring the the work of Spiraling doesn't screw you up. It's a safety mechanism of sorts, a self-defense against the rising of energy that can get stuck in the brain or elsewhere. Whereas Opening the Energy Gates only uses the Wu Ji posture for the dissolving work, Spiraling takes place while holding any of the two hundred standing postures that are a part of the system. The key difference is that at this point, you work with drawing energy up from the earth, rather than just dropping it through your body over and over which is what you do in Energy Gates. By slightly pointing the tailbone and minutely shifting the weight onto the balls of your feet, you begin drawing energy up your legs, and eventually all the way through the top of your head. However, this process is taught slowly, so that you "wire in" the energy at each stage of your body. First with general flows, then with each and every single specific energy gate in the body, you draw energy up, then dissolve it back down. Over and over for each point until the moving of the energy is second nature and doesn't result in emotional or mental jolts. Of course, energy is already moving in your body on its own, the Spiraling process is about using your consciousness to further engender and strengthen these flows, as well as helping to open up areas where flows are blocked. In this particular system you need a solid basis in dissolving and letting go in a downward direction to strengthen your nerves and open up your blockages before you get into the upward flows. Systems that pull the energy up from the start have the potential to be overly effective and cause the student to "pack" their system with too much energy and cause distorted mental and emotional states. That's why this system puts such an emphasis on letting go and dissolving first. Other aspects of the Spiraling work include dissolving the energy around your body progressively further out into space which is "external" dissolving, intentionally spinning the energy of each individual energy gate, and then finally drawing energy flows through those spinning gateways, which causes such flows to spiral in their normal pathways. This can really help build up your energy for daily life, and for specialized use such as martial arts, healing and meditation. My friend Isaac Kamins and I have been teaching the Energy Gates set for the last few months here in the Bay Area, and for the month of February we will go into some of the Spiraling Energy Body work, for those who are interested and ready to dig into it a bit. Then from March - May we will go back to the Energy Gates and continue refining the basics of standing/dissolving, swings and spine stretch. Please join us if you want to check it out! www.watertradition.net Sincerely, Jess O'Brien 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites