Chi gong and its relation to quantum physics

[froggie]

Kind of a strange question maybe, but has anyone looked into quantum physics and how it may relate to various kinds of chi gong and so?

 

You know, energy particles and how they work so you can work with them, etc.

 

Somehow they seem very related, but on the other hand not very much physics research going on with energy cultivation etc

Edited October 12, 2008 by froggie

[Gerard]

Edited October 12, 2008 by durkhrod chogori

[mwight]

Through meditation I realized we don't live in a universe we live in a multiverse.... A place where all possible worlds exist to account for each possible choice that can be made.

 

Each second we are alive we are navigating in and out of all these possible worlds via our choices, thoughts and actions. In a literal sense this is karma.

 

Every possible outcome has already happened. every possible world already exists, every possible book has already been written, every possible thought has been conceived, and every action already taken.

 

So in essence this person writing this message right now is a work of fiction, so too the person reading it is also. We build up this character and identify with them, but that isn't who or what we really are.

 

In my personal practice discussion there is a post about my six dimensional theory of reality which goes into the nature of reality as I experienced it more in depth.

Edited October 12, 2008 by mwight

[froggie]

i believe that you can

create certain conditions

so that an electromagnetic field is created (and an influx (of chi, whatever its quantum mechanical name may be) at certain 'low resistance points')

so that some kind of universal energy can be harnessed

and worked in/with/etc in various ways

Edited October 12, 2008 by froggie

[Apech]

I think that the essential problem is that science sees consciousness as an epiphenomenon, that is something which arises through the complex interaction of physical processes, whilst Taoism and Buddhism regard consciousness/sentience as a primary attribute of 'that which is'. Quantum mechanics gets itself tied on knots over the observer and observed problem whilst I think we would have no problem with the idea of this interaction - i.e. the wave function of the observer is part of the equation.

 

I doubt very much if any self respecting physicist would accept that it is possible to perceive quantum effects bodily as Qi for instance. They would say that we are constantly bombarded by cosmic rays for example and we cannot feel them. If they were to accept that such a sensitivity exists then they would look for experimental evidence for a measurable interaction which our nervous system could pick up and our brain interpret. I think they would at best see any Qi based description of quantum energy and so on as metaphorical at best.

Edited October 13, 2008 by apepch7

[Guest artform]

I think that the essential problem is that science sees consciousness as an epiphenomenon, that is something which arises through the complex interaction of physical processes, whilst Taoism and Buddhism regard consciousness/sentience as a primary attribute of 'that which is'. Quantum mechanics gets itself tied on knots over the observer and observed problem whilst I think we would have no problem with the idea of this interaction - i.e. the wave function of the observer is part of the equation.

 

I doubt very much if any self respecting physicist would accept that it is possible to perceive quantum effects bodily as Qi for instance. They would say that we are constantly bombarded by cosmic rays for example and we cannot feel them. If they were to accept that such a sensitivity exists then they would look for experimental evidence for a measurable interaction which our nervous system could pick up and our brain interpret. I think they would at best see any Qi based description of quantum energy and so on as metaphorical at best.

 

I wonder if this is quite so? If Roger Penrose (The Emporer's New Mind and Shadows of the Mind) is right about the microtubules and quantum entanglement as yet another and the fastest pathway for the mind-brain, even into the timeless now, as seems to be being experimentally supported currently, then doesn't that open new doors?

 

My own experiential paths suggest that uncovering the techniques of mitochondrial group/masses communication is crucial and that they may also be microtubule sourced similarly; the reason being I'm inclined to think that chi may be a mitochondria-based physical pulsed phenomenon when we get right down to it. Mitochondria are our crucial energy converters, an originally independent life-form with complete communication capabilities as well as its own DNA, now fully integrated co-beings in the totality of us. The whole body mitochondrial hive-mind as an integral dimension of our sensory apparatus and hovering web of electrochemical/electromagnetic/quantum-entanglement mentality/consciousness: that is the working Artform Hypothesis.

 

What do you think and how?

 

artform

Edited October 13, 2008 by artform

[Apech]

I wonder if this is quite so? If Roger Penrose (The Emporer's New Mind and Shadows of the Mind) is right about the microtubules and quantum entanglement as yet another and the fastest pathway for the mind-brain, even into the timeless now, as seems to be being experimentally supported currently, then doesn't that open new doors?

 

My own experiential paths suggest that uncovering the techniques of mitochondrial group/masses communication is crucial and that they may also be microtubule sourced similarly; the reason being I'm inclined to think that chi may be a mitochondria-based physical pulsed phenomenon when we get right down to it. Mitochondria are our crucial energy converters, an originally independent life-form with complete communication capabilities as well as its own DNA, now fully integrated co-beings in the totality of us. The whole body mitochondrial hive-mind as an integral dimension of our sensory apparatus and hovering web of electrochemical/electromagnetic/quantum-entanglement mentality/consciousness: that is the working Artform Hypothesis.

 

What do you think and how?

 

artform

 

I haven't read Penrose but obviously I should.

 

Excellent - yes. But what would be the physiological process for detecting quantum effects and how would that relate to mitochondrial (or any other kind ) pulsing.

 

BTW there seems to be two very similar threads - is this some kind of weird quantum effect itself?

[Guest artform]

I haven't read Penrose but obviously I should.

 

Excellent - yes. But what would be the physiological process for detecting quantum effects and how would that relate to mitochondrial (or any other kind ) pulsing.

 

BTW there seems to be two very similar threads - is this some kind of weird quantum effect itself?

 

The focus is on the rhythmic pulsing of mitochondria and their possible role(s) in generating chi and orgasmic energies, particularly the energies sensed in kundalini, and dry multiple orgasms in the Key Sound (Jack Johnston) and Aneros practices. The speed and levels of co-ordination may well only be explainable over whole body scales by microtubule-quantum communications, as compared to heart muscle mitochondrial pulse synchronization.

 

The quantum effects would initially be inferred, however there are lab techniques for measuring quantum electron entanglement at a distance...

 

This curiosity about science and age-old traditions is a natural cultural artifact of this era: the age of radical reintegration.

[minkus]

Through meditation I realized we don't live in a universe we live in a multiverse.... A place where all possible worlds exist to account for each possible choice that can be made.

 

Each second we are alive we are navigating in and out of all these possible worlds via our choices, thoughts and actions. In a literal sense this is karma.

 

Every possible outcome has already happened. every possible world already exists, every possible book has already been written, every possible thought has been conceived, and every action already taken.

 

So in essence this person writing this message right now is a work of fiction, so too the person reading it is also. We build up this character and identify with them, but that isn't who or what we really are.

 

In my personal practice discussion there is a post about my six dimensional theory of reality which goes into the nature of reality as I experienced it more in depth.

 

Hey mwight, i have the exact (!) same view, nice you describe this subject so clearly. I enjoyed reading this post, its a bit of an affirmation hehe. Gonna check your practice discussion.

 

Cheers.

[Jakara]

I think youre on a more correct track describing qi as a bio-chemcial phenomenon rather than a quantum physical one. Which aspect of qi is quantum related? Quantum just means the smallest measure of something possible, like an electron has the smallest measure of charge and is therefore one "quanta" of charge. New physics is required to describe the interactions of such minute amounts, termed quantum physics.

 

The problem is that interesting properties arise with quantum physics (like entanglement) that exist only in the quantum world, i.e. very microscopic interactions. But these effects dont propagate into the bigger world for things like qi. For example, quantum physics has something called quantum tunnelling where an electron has a chance to pass through solid matter (infact this happens in the Sun as a main process of radiation transport). But you wouldnt run up and smack face first into a solid brick wall expecting to pass through it, even though technically there is an extremely small chance that you might due to quantum physics. The probablility that you would pass through the solid wall is so small that it would never happen even if you ran into the wall every minute for millions of ages of the universe, but the chance is still not zero! :-)

 

Now, just to be the annoying skeptic, there is also a problem with the many world theory called "Quantum Immortality". It says that a guys puts a gun to his head and pulls the trigger, there is a 50/50 chance that it will fire (its a crappy gun) so he will either live or die. Now each time he survives or dies a new world is created, resulting in infinite number of worlds. Now because every possibility must be played out, there is a world where this guy has pulled the trigger millions of times and each time he doesn't die, thereby claiming himself immortal. The same effect would apply to other scenarios, some guy in one of these worlds has lived to be 500 years old becasue each time he has a chance to die every scenario must be played out and theres always one where he keeps surviving.

 

There's also a world where I am king and rule the world, because each possibility must be played out and there are an infinite number of possibilities.

 

My point is that quantum effects aren't carried into the "real" world on an every day scale and therefore quantum is probably not the answer (though theres a small non-zero chance due to quantum effects).

[Guest artform]

Hi Jakara

 

Your comments do pose some of the problems, in extremis, of linking quantum phenomena into the meso-cosmos, human scale, just another arbitrary way station on the scales of being.

 

The quantum effects come not in the energies and their origins, which I agree are likely fundamentally bio-chemical, but the speed of the triggering and patterning of these energies and our perceptions of the them or their effects. If Penrose is being proven correct that there is a quantum effects dimension to consciousness and its mechanics, originating in the microtubules in neurons, what is to say that mitochondria, originally independent lifeforms, cannot/do not also use those effects in their microtubules as communications in linking and syncing their energy transform pulses? So, the theory is, that it is not the production of the energies, but the co-ordination and orchestration signalling that requires the exquisite ecstatic timeless timing to achieve the results we can experience.

 

Then, given the quantum dimension to consciousness, who is to say we cannot enter realms that pose the challenges you touch on? I want to look in on the conversation mwright and minkus have just begun here...

 

Thanks everyone of everyone of each of us.

 

all the best to all

 

artform

Edited October 17, 2008 by artform