Kunlun Portland 2008

[fiveelementtao]

So, I went to the Kunlun seminar in Portland. I had posted some questions on this forum before. I shared that I was also a Tao practitioner in the same lineage as Max and a couple of you asked me to share my experience of Max and kunlun. So here goes...

 

First, let me say that Max was very kind to me and seemed genuinely happy to meet a fellow brother in the Lum lineage. He made me feel like an honored guest.

 

I did not go there to test him as I knew I would know very quickly if he had in fact learned anything of any significance from the Sifu. I can confirm that Max did learn from Lum Sifu. The techniques that he taught had the same energetic "signature" as the other stuff I have learned. As it turns out, My body had already started to do RP as a result of my training. It felt alot like coming home...

As I said, I did not go there to test him. I was only there to learn internal/meditative techniques from my tradition that my teachers did not have. However, Max did show me some Tao Ga techniques and I was able to feel some significant Tao Ga power in his strikes. The Tao Ga energy is very unique so I would have been able to detect if he did not have this energy. So, I can also confirm that he has also trained in the Lum family martial arts. I was happily surprised to learn some Tao Ga techniques from him (some that I had not learned before) and are now in my repertoire of techniques

 

About Kunlun... Kunlun is a different energy . But they can be used together well. I found that the Kunlun energy and transmission is as people have described. Although, the spontaneous movements can look like people are being possessed or controlled, I found that, actually, it is a cooperative type of energy. Max performed one of the Kunlun "Magic" techniques on me. and I found exactly as people have already said, If I was open to the experience, Max was able to influence me. But, I definitely had my own will and I found that if I chose to resist, I could. Max does have a transmission power. But, I also found that he was gentle with it.

 

Other confirmations.

I was taught by my teachers that our Tao was different than most other Tao disciplines. My teachers taught me that our practice goes "from Nothing to Something to Nothing" and most other traditions go "from something to nothing to something" I did not understand this for a long time. I experimented with other taoist disciplines such as Chi Kung, taoist visualization methods, mantak chia, etc... Some I liked, but the energy was different and was not a "tight Fit". I also practiced Kundalini Yoga and Sanskrit mantra for many years, but I have found that they do not fit together with my stuff well. When I do kundalini raising stuff, I get a headache.

 

So, here is my conclusion... "Something to Nothing to something" refers to rising energy like kundalini. The root chakra is manifestation "something" the crown opening is "nothing" (Union, samadhi, shivashakti etc..) and returning to the Root chakra is "something" again.

 

Kunlun is descending, so you start at the crown (nothing) etc.. Also the kunlun philosophy is that you start at an understanding you are already "God" (nothing). some other types of energy work, like some forms of Chi Kung, pull energy from outside of the body and store it and you build up more and more of this energy. In my training, the exercises merely awaken dormant energy centers within the body and you are "plugged in" and the energy simply flows through you. Kunlun seems to be similar.

 

Please be aware that I am not making value judgements on different traditions or techniques. I don't believe there is a "best" or "Right" path. I'm just simply verbalizing the conclusions I have come to. In terms of "enlightenment" my personal view is that all energetic disciplines and techniques are merely tools. They can certainly help on the road to enlightenment, but are not necessary. (and in some cases are a hindrance) So, when it comes to enlightenment, IMHO nothing is more enlightened than the person who simply loves others and themselves as best they can. Any energetic accomplishments are simply icing on the cake. (my .02 about that)

 

So, in summation, I would say that I thoroughly enjoyed my kunlun experience and I am looking forward to learning more from Max in the future. I recommend kunlun to anyone curious about it. However, It's not for everyone. It may be too intense for some as many people there had some powerful emotional and physical experiences. I would also recommend that you give yourself a day or two afterward to rest. and also drink PLENTY of water during and afterward. I think I lost about 5 pounds this past weekend and I find I have to remind myself to eat lately. I would also caution people to be very respectful of Red Pheonix. It is deceptively powerful. All of those "other" practices should NEVER be abused. There IS a backlash and there are immortals watching and keeping tabs on how this stuff is used. (Don't ask me how I know) Practice it with respect!!!

Lastly, I want to say that Max's staff were especially kind and friendly to me. It really opened my heart to the whole process.

Thanks to Max, Chris, Kan, Diana and all the rest (whose names escape me) for a great weekend.

Edited October 17, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[Aetherous]

Wow, nice report. I agree with everything that you've said, which I'm capable of agreeing with. It's an honor for everyone to have another Maoshan practitioner besides Max get into the practices and post a report: so thanks.

[三江源]

.

Edited June 9, 2016 by 三江源

[fiveelementtao]

A question that may be unanswerable.. what do you think happens to the awakened kundalini when you practise a downward flow?

 

A very good question, Cat! The short version: "I don't know."

 

The long version: (My opinion only) I have only recently begun making a determined effort to make a distinction between the energies. I can definitely tell you that kundalini is NOT a chi type of energy. Kundalini seems to be most connected to the aspect of personality development. To me, that corresponds to the "something" aspect of the equation. In order to have a human personality one must identify with being "something". The MS stuff seems to bypass that altogether and go straight to "nothingness" (but the human personality can tag along if it wants to and has the strength.)

 

My experience with the "other" energy is that it greatly amplifies whatever energy you are working with. That is why I stopped mixing sanskrit Mantra with Tao Ga. This may also be why Max teaches RP before kunlun. It probably amplifies the power of kunlun to help facilitate transmission. ( I have no idea, I'm just guessing).

 

My theory as to why most arts start by being "something" is that this is for protection. The advanced "other" stuff has the potential to be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Simply because it is not necessary to go through all the emotional and psychological barriers to energetic power. Whereas to make any real energetic progress with yoga, one must face their psychological issues and reduce their personality attachments before the energy flows. This is not the case with MS. MS (in my experience) however will shatter conventional reality. The issue here is that one must have a very strong constitution or they will crap their energetic pants. Most people fail on the M S path not because it is too hard. No, it is actually a very simple path. People fail because it is too frightening. This may be another reason why Max chooses to merge kunlun (bliss) with MS (reality busting). ( again, I'm just guessing here, I can't speak for Max)

 

So, to finally answer your question, I think that the kundalini may be awakened through practices like Kunlun but that it is a secondary side effect. However, I don't know. Kundalini is definitely a "human" energy and M S is not. (I'm too young on the kunlun path to make an accurate assessment other than it feels good )

 

Sorry for rambling....

Edited October 18, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[Cameron]

Awesome review.

 

Yes, the feeling of being "plugged in" rather than building up energy seems to be a trademark of Max's system.

 

How about the 5 element standing and Gold Flower mudra? Had you seen those before?

 

Cam

[fiveelementtao]

Awesome review.

 

Yes, the feeling of being "plugged in" rather than building up energy seems to be a trademark of Max's system.

 

How about the 5 element standing and Gold Flower mudra? Had you seen those before?

 

Cam

 

I had been introduced to the standing jongs before but not Golden flower

[Spirit Ape]

To the best of my knowledge reading some old post Red Phoenix is also a visualization One pointed mind culativation method like skeleton meditation would be!?

 

also Tao Ga is that the name of the kung fu system or you saying Tao Ga as in Lums family taoist methods as he is Maoshan cause i have heard of a kung fu system named Tao Ga or Dao Gar not confusing as just a Daoist family system.

 

Ape

Edited October 15, 2008 by Spirit Ape

[Spectrum]

I thought this was October 17th?

[Yoda]

Many ***amazing*** insights! Thanks Fiveelementtao!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[fiveelementtao]

I had been introduced to the standing jongs before but not Golden flower

Tao Ga is Lum family martial arts that are based on "other" practices...

Edited October 17, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[Spirit Ape]

Is there only one Tao Ga system in hawaaii?

[fiveelementtao]

Is there only one Tao Ga system in hawaaii?

 

No there is at least one other system taught by another student of Lum sifu... But it is a closed door class.

[Spirit Ape]

Is the Tao Gar forms (fighting forms from Master Lum) like long external and internal movements similar to Hung Fut or Fut Gar?

[fiveelementtao]

Is the Tao Gar forms (fighting forms from Master Lum) like long external and internal movements similar to Hung Fut or Fut Gar?

 

I am not familiar with those disciplines so I cannot say. Lum Tai Young taught many different versions of Tao Ga to different people (As does Andrew Lum). I have seen forms that are very physical and other versions that look more like a shamanic dance. And even within the same forms there are different schools. I know of Monkey king style and Kwan Yin style. I was taught Kwan Yin style. So, depending on who was taught what, the same form could look completely different. But, to casual the observer, yes the Tao Ga forms look similar to other internal Martial Arts forms.

[fiveelementtao]

Is the Tao Gar forms (fighting forms from Master Lum) like long external and internal movements similar to Hung Fut or Fut Gar?

 

Actually Spirit Ape, now that I think about it there ARE other forms of Tao Ga. Arthur Lee was taught a modified form of Tao Ga by Lum Tai Young. He calls it Shao Lin Fut Ga, It is not Shao Lin of course, but that's because Lum Tai young told him it was Shao Lin in order to hide the original heritage. And I also heard of another teacher in Hong Kong who teaches an art he calls Tao Ga. I have no idea if it is related to Lum's Tao Ga.

Edited October 28, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[rain]

thank you. touching report about mutual reconition and respect.

 

 

quote fivelelmentstao;

"(but the human personality can tag along if it wants to and has the strength.) "

understatement of the day!!

 

 

 

............"tag along"..

 

..."if it has the strenght"...

 

FFantastic!

Edited October 16, 2008 by rain

[YMWong]

I am absolutely amazed at seeing how much you all have no clue about Maoshan Shangqing Pai and take some popular martial arts and dragon dance kind of stuff for 'esoteric daoism' <sic>.

 

Impressive, really impressive, but in a negative way

 

YM

[Aetherous]

YM,

 

It seems that not many people care about your opinion...since no one has listened to you before.

 

Also, you're mistaken. No one is thinking what you're suggesting. As fiveelementtao said: "Tao Ga is Lum family martial arts BASED ON other Mao Shan practices".

[sheng zhen]

It seems that not many people care about your opinion...since no one has listened to you before.

Oh but we care very much about YMWong contribution. He is one of those rare but precious gems that make taobums worth hanging around for us interested in taoism more than just regular spirituality.

[rain]

I wish he wouldnt generalize so much. I used to enjoy reading his posts, I stopped reading because of this endless "you all " "me alone" attitude. that very often met the response "you alone and "we all"..

 

 

Edited October 16, 2008 by rain

[宁]

Oh but we care very much about YMWong contribution. He is one of those rare but precious gems that make taobums worth hanging around for us interested in taoism more than just regular spirituality.

 

 

Enjoyed and appreciated

What's not to like about messages like that? That they dont concord with your ideas?

Well that's the beauty of it...

Live and learn

 

L1

[YMWong]

I wish he wouldnt generalize so much.

 

I was speaking to/for those who are posting (were posting before I did) on this thread.

 

They clearly have no clue and do so you if you agree or believe in ***Hawaii Maoshan Daoism***

 

In my opinion, of course, should I specify so ?

 

YM

Edited October 16, 2008 by YMWong

[宁]

Of course there is Maoshan in Hawaii

There's Zealand, and New Zealand,

York and New York

Georgia and New Georgia

 

Age, and New-Age...

 

and so on and so forth...

 

 

So for everything conceivable, there is a "New" and "Fashionable" version.

Why not Hawaian Maoshan Sorcery?

 

 

Lollz

 

But wait, we are all playing with words, don't we... If only masters would have the patience to read internet forums

 

 

That'll be the day!

 

 

L1

Edited October 16, 2008 by Little1

[Aetherous]

Oh but we care very much about YMWong contribution. He is one of those rare but precious gems that make taobums worth hanging around for us interested in taoism more than just regular spirituality.

 

Fair enough...then when it comes to Taoism mixed with regular spirituality (in other words, Taoism that's practical) then he should stay in his lane.

 

I was speaking to/for those who are posting (were posting before I did) on this thread.

 

They clearly have no clue and do so you if you agree or believe in ***Hawaii Maoshan Daoism***

 

In my opinion, of course, should I specify so ?

 

Why rehash an old topic? Does anyone care to argue that point again? And again and again?

 

I believe Sifu Lum who Max learned from was a Maoshan Taoist who happened to live in Hawaii. If you don't, then that's your problem. I don't see why someone wouldn't.

[fiveelementtao]

I am absolutely amazed at seeing how much you all have no clue about Maoshan Shangqing Pai and take some popular martial arts and dragon dance kind of stuff for 'esoteric daoism' <sic>.

 

Impressive, really impressive, but in a negative way

 

YM

 

YM, I'm surprised at you. Of course there is no Magic anymore! I can't believe you took us seriously! LOL This is just an inside joke between friends. We post this stuff about magic for fun. It's sort of like playing dungeons and dragons. We're PRETENDING. I get a kick out of watching people get upset when they think we are being serious. I'm sorry. I thought everyone on the taobums knew about the game. You're welcome to play along if you want. You can be Merlin the Magician or Gandalf the Wizard or even Darth Vader. Sorry about the confusion. The real historical magic disappeared in the middle ages. Anybody who claims to practice magic is either lying or is deluded.

Edited October 28, 2008 by fiveelementtao