Kunlun Portland 2008

[ToL]

 

you will be a great teacher

Edited October 16, 2008 by ToL

[Spectrum]

From any of the attendant forumites; does Kunlun practice Universal Post ie Wuji?

[Spirit Ape]

5ELEMENTS,

 

I think i have Andrew lum on video doing Tao Ga forms and yes the Lees use the name Fut gar!

 

8 poisions form etc did you learn that also are you chinese or gwai lo?

 

Ape

[fiveelementtao]

5ELEMENTS,

 

I think i have Andrew lum on video doing Tao Ga forms and yes the Lees use the name Fut gar!

 

8 poisions form etc did you learn that also are you chinese or gwai lo?

 

Ape

 

I'm not familiar with 8 poisons form. I am Human.

Edited October 17, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[Spirit Ape]

So you are a student of Andrew Lum but dont know what he teachers?

[YMWong]

I believe Sifu Lum who Max learned from was a Maoshan Taoist who happened to live in Hawaii. If you don't, then that's your problem. I don't see why someone wouldn't.

 

Sure Scotty, you believe and I don't and as you say you do I say I don't.

 

To be an american "land of the Free" you don't seem very open to let people express their ideas ...

 

Anybody who claims to practice Shang Ching Tao is either lying or is deluded.

 

Not everyone: only you guys

 

YM

Edited October 17, 2008 by YMWong

[fiveelementtao]

So you are a student of Andrew Lum but dont know what he teachers?

 

I am not a student of Sifu Lum's. I am a student of one of his closed door students. So, I do not know everything he teaches.

[Spirit Ape]

I see!

[VCraigP]

I am not a student of Sifu Lum's. I am a student of one of his closed door students. So, I do not know everything he teaches.

 

 

Hello my friend. Craig here. The guy wearing the colorful headband :-), in case your memory is already failing you.

 

Thank you very much for sharing your experience.

 

I have been busy travelling and so have only just seen your input here. Thanks very much for that.

 

To everyone else, I was also at the same Portland seminar attended by 5ETao. I can support everthing he said about Max's reception. It was very nice to observe, and Max definitely did share some things with him which to me as an outside observer seemed exactly like a senior sharing with a junior some details of a form they had both studied. I was able to watch Max demonstrate on 5ETao some movements and applications which were very interesting. Just some basic stuff, but Max was showing some subtle refinements therein. As I've said before I have seen only one other "white guy" move like Max does, and it was really fun to watch him show some basic martial arts technique (not basic at all really if you include what is going on internally).

 

It seemed very clear to me that they had studied the same material and were comparing notes. I think I saw 5ETao have at least one or two "aha" moments while observing some things Max showed.

 

My input for now, not much time for forums today.

 

5ETao - have you signed up on Kunlun forum? check it out. at least you won't have to defend your positions there, but it isn't as active as here.

 

Be well. watch out for the bubba's back home.

 

Craig

[三江源]

.

Edited July 23, 2014 by cat

[Cameron]

It's pointless to argue about whether you think Max's teacher was really an authentic Maoshan Master or not. I had a discussion with a fellow Kunlun pracitioner recently that made it pretty simple. All of the people who diss Max here have never met him in person. If they had, my guess is they would be backpeddling.

[YMWong]

It's pointless to argue about whether you think Max's teacher was really an authentic Maoshan Master or not. I had a discussion with a fellow Kunlun pracitioner recently that made it pretty simple. All of the people who diss Max here have never met him in person. If they had, my guess is they would be backpeddling.

 

Sorry, Cameron, but I fail to understand how meeting Max - for somebody who doesn't know anything about Shangqing Pai - would confirm or deny his relationship to this sect.

Can you help me ?

 

YM

[三江源]

.

Edited July 23, 2014 by cat

[Cameron]

Sorry, Cameron, but I fail to understand how meeting Max - for somebody who doesn't know anything about Shangqing Pai - would confirm or deny his relationship to this sect.

Can you help me ?

 

YM

 

 

Hi YM,

 

I am a beginner at these practices. I am not Maoshan Pai initiate or a Taoist scholar. My experience with the practices has been enough to basically trust what Max says. If he says he studied with a Maoshan Master for 29 years I am inclined to believe him.

 

Your entitled to your own views of course. If you question his honesty and integrity that's your right.

[YMWong]

I am a beginner at these practices. I am not Maoshan Pai initiate or a Taoist scholar. My experience with the practices has been enough to basically trust what Max says. If he says he studied with a Maoshan Master for 29 years I am inclined to believe him.

 

I appreciate your reply which is understandable of course.

I am also of the idea that trusting the person which we have chosen to study with is fundamental to learn.

 

At the same time, however, one has to remain open minded enough to at least hear what people have to say without being judgemental - especially when the information he works on come from a single source.

 

Hands-on experience is paramount but can be tricky.

The mind is fascinating but easy to be tricked as well.

 

Thanks for your reply

 

YM

[Aetherous]

At the same time, however, one has to remain open minded enough to at least hear what people have to say without being judgemental - especially when the information he works on come from a single source.

 

So Sifu Lum was lying in that he had anything to do with Mao Shan Taoism?

 

I guess what I'd need to even begin to consider this is evidence supporting your argument. There isn't any in this thread...so why would people be open minded to your point of view?

[YMWong]

So Sifu Lum was lying in that he had anything to do with Mao Shan Taoism?

 

I guess what I'd need to even begin to consider this is evidence supporting your argument. There isn't any in this thread...so why would people be open minded to your point of view?

 

If we meet for a beer and you tell me how happy you are to have found a great teacher of french and that your first lesson was about numbers where you learned that 1=unos 2=dos 3=tres if my french was rusty but still decent I would feel your new teacher was not sincere - to say the least - with you.

If we were friends or if I cared about you I'd probably feel compelled to warn you.

 

By the same token, for one who knows a bit about Shangqing Pai and is informed about Daoism in Hawaii, to read comments on various threads about "Maoshan" here the same bell rings.

 

Get yourself some of the good books, some are even monographies, written in the last 20-30 years about Maoshan/Shangqing Pai and see for yourself.

 

You don't have or need to listen to what I say, you have to do your homeworks.

Get yourself an engish-french dictionary

 

YM

Edited October 17, 2008 by YMWong

[YMWong]

This book, while dated, is still a good starting point

 

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Meditation-Ma...y/dp/0791413608

 

Taoist Meditation: The Mao-Shan Tradition of Great Purity (S U N Y Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture) (Paperback)

by Isabelle Robinet (Author), Julian F. Pas (Author), Norman J. Girardot (Author)

 

YM

[Aetherous]

I will get the book, but: what makes you think Isabelle Robinet, Julian Pas, and Norman Girardot have any clue about Shangching Pai? Maybe there are deeper things that these people weren't exposed to...like they got the beginner's/outsider's view?

 

When I tell people I know about kunlun I give them a very simplistic answer and don't reveal much. Perhaps it was the same for them?

 

The reason why I am supportive of the view that Sifu Lum is legit, is because the practices I know from Max are amazingly effective. But I'm open to the idea that it's not actually Maoshan stuff, and perhaps shouldn't be called that. At this point I'm really not convinced though.

 

I tend to have the reverse view at the moment: that you YM have been taught Spanish and and told it was French, by these people who take the scholarly outsider approach. But like I said, I'll get the book and keep an open mind.

[Cameron]

I agree remaining open minded is important.

 

ps. Perhaps there are different branches of Maoshan? Without brining up Max's teacher over and over..I know he doesn't want that..from my limited experience with other Taoist lineages-like Longmen Pai-there are different systems which might take a completely different approach to internal alchemy within the same sect. We have even seen this happen here on Taobums. One disciple of Longmen disagrees with the understanding of another. It's not that one or the other is wrong per se but learned a different system from there teacher.

 

But it's still Longmen Pai.

 

Wouldn't it at all be possible for there to be different lines of Maoshan? Is it possible your not familiar with the line Max studied? I mean is that even a remote possibilty in your mind?

[Yoda]

YM,

 

Looks like a cool book!

 

Scott,

 

Let me know if you check it out!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[YMWong]

Wouldn't it at all be possible for there to be different lines of Maoshan? Is it possible your not familiar with the line Max studied? I mean is that even a remote possibilty in your mind?

 

If we speak of Maoshan Shangqing Pai then there are sub-sects but they all have the same structure.

 

Everything is always possible, Cameron, but certain things are more - much more - probable than others.

 

And, finally, having been in France and having spoken with a lot of french there I'd tend to believe that I know how to count to three

 

The reason why I am supportive of the view that Sifu Lum is legit, is because the practices I know from Max are amazingly effective.

 

This is the logic that escapes me.

 

And, by the way, *effective* means a lot of different things to different people.

For instance, by reading the Kunlun reports I wouldn't judge those results as "effective" from (my) a Daoist viewpoint.

I would see them more as 'deviant'.

 

But, needless to say, that's my point of view which can be agreed to or not.

 

YM

Edited October 17, 2008 by YMWong

[fiveelementtao]

please feel free to ramble, I like it! Actually I'm going to ramble back, now.

Formyself, I got the head back and open mouth and no breathing thing, on the one workshop with Max, and in daily practice I get a lot of no breathing, flung backward, position which feels to me like packing is going on in in the central channel, but I dont get a ton of bliss,

 

cat, I had similar experiences. I get a very nice "clean" feeling and a calm "content" feeling after KL. (my opinion coming here..) I think the dramatic emotional and physical responses to KL (i.e coughing, laughing, crying etc..) is a result of the energy cleaning out emotional blockages and attachments. I think I heard Max say as much a few times in the workshop. So, I took that to mean that I may have already worked through alot of personal stuff. So, for me, I actually took it to be a good sign that there were the signature physical responses but not alot of emotional ones.

[VCraigP]

If we speak of Maoshan Shangqing Pai then there are sub-sects but they all have the same structure.

 

Everything is always possible, Cameron, but certain things are more - much more - probable than others.

 

And, finally, having been in France and having spoken with a lot of french there I'd tend to believe that I know how to count to three

This is the logic that escapes me.

 

And, by the way, *effective* means a lot of different things to different people.

For instance, by reading the Kunlun reports I wouldn't judge those results as "effective" from (my) a Daoist viewpoint.

I would see them more as 'deviant'.

 

But, needless to say, that's my point of view which can be agreed to or not.

 

YM

 

YM

 

What is your knowledge of maoshan which does not derive from books?

 

You said

"If we speak of Maoshan Shangqing Pai then there are sub-sects but they all have the same structure."

You write this as if it were irrefutable fact. Please support this statement.

 

 

 

You claim to have a Daoist view point. Are you a Daoist, according to your own definitions? which sect?

Please support this statement.

 

 

What is your education. i.e. who are your teachers and what lineage do they derive from?

 

Why do you interpret what you have read about Kunlun practice as deviant? How do you define this?

Please support this statement.

 

It is all well and good to offer your point of view, but you are quite short on providing answers to what informs your point of view. You seem to desire to get your opinion across on this subject and I and others wish you would provide more information to attempt to support your view point and credibility.

 

Please be direct with your answers.

 

thanks

 

Craig

[fiveelementtao]

I will get the book, but: what makes you think Isabelle Robinet, Julian Pas, and Norman Girardot have any clue about Shangching Pai? Maybe there are deeper things that these people weren't exposed to...like they got the beginner's/outsider's view?

 

Hey Scotty, There are two other scholarly books that YM did not mention which I recommend to any interested. (I myself read them while on the toilet.): "The Method of Holding the Three Ones" By Poul Anderson and "The Way of Great Clarity" by James Miller.

Edited October 28, 2008 by fiveelementtao