Kan and Li

[sheng zhen]

[YMWong]

Edited October 21, 2008 by YMWong

[sheng zhen]

This explains mainly that 1. there are no shortcuts to exceptional results, all roads are long and hard to follow and 2. the mind is a dangerous subject

Thanks a lot YMWong!

 

I know! Mind can be dangerous. Or if not dangerous, very misleading

[宁]

 

In my esperience, Kan and Li mean various things in various schools at various levels of practice.

Before one tries to merge kan/li or yin/yang one needs to "have them" i.e. have developed a sense of separation which is - in my opinion - more *physical* then mental. Body and mind changes are equally necessary but it seems to me that nowadays most people only 'imagine' things.***

We have a saying:

average means lead to average results

deep means lead to deep results

exceptional means lead to exceptional results

imaginative means lead to imaginative results***

This explains mainly that 1. there are no shortcuts to exceptional results, all roads are long and hard to follow and 2. the mind is a dangerous subject

 

Best

 

YM

 

***EDIT: I say so especially since I read people commenting that the practice would be 'imagining water boiled into vapour in the belly etc." kind of things ...

 

 

I agree with that 100%

Until you really GOT to the level of refinement where you can ACTUALLY do the merging, you will waste time imagining things, and this is absolutely NOT what K&L is about.

The mind is a dangerous thing, only when it moves too fast.

 

I must add, from my experience, that there are different types of Kan and different types of Li. Which break the practice into different types for different purposes.

 

For instance, when I look at certain people that I see at my workplace, at my job, many of them have the Li, heat, separated and brought up, in the upper part of the heart, near the neck almost.

Many others have the Kan, water and dampness, too much and lowered to the lower part.

Each of them have a different symptom and diagnostic.

 

Although, through meditation and qigong it would be very beneficial for those persons to try and bring the water and fire to their places, and even interact, to produce the third essence, the practice of K&L that I speak of implies a different type of water, and a different type of fire.

 

The Xian Tian and Hou Tian can add much to understanding here.

I think those who have acces to the documentation can confirm this.

 

L1

 

PS: Even if the information is out it depends MUCH on the type of mind that receives it. So yes, it comes down to the mind, eventually, but in a Chinese way, the Xin, the heart-mind.

[sheng zhen]

One more for my Kan and Li rampage. This is from the Shaolin Wanham forum:

 

Lesser Kan and Li

 

In contrast to having Full Kundalini Arousal (Greater Kan and Li),

being Fully Kundalini Awakened (Lesser Kan and Li) means that that

you can connect ALL the wires, run your first stage generator (and

all the minor chakra generators) and make the energy go wherever you

want. You get increased perception, fluidity of movement, and all

that stuff, as long as you are actively running the energy. If you

keep working at it you also get the amazing, if temporary, effects

of really running energy from your base chakra all the way through

your crown chakra with all the first stage generators running and

all the pipes wide open. This is a sort of rehearsal for the "BIG

THING" . (It is pretty amazing and it is sometimes mistaken for

the "BIG THING" itself.)

 

I guess this is about the REAL Kan and Li process that Varjasattva mentioned.

[Ian]

the transfer of consciousness to the energy should happen during the Fusion formulas.

but this doesn't mean that everyone who practices Fusion can pass to that level.

 

I rather think this might be the important part of this thread.

[sheng zhen]

And here is a littlebit of what Taoist Yoga-book, an irritatingly chaotic and confusing book that still is too intriguing to put away, say about K'an and Li.

 

page 57

Kan and Li stand for lower abdomen and heart respectively. Vitality and spirit are respective functionings od Kan and Li. Spirit in Li (the house of fire) is (essential) nature and vitalit in Kan (the house of water) is (eternal life).

Fire in the house of water stands for vitality in vibration which then forms a (kind of) bellows (extending) from 1.2 inches below the heart to 1.3 inches under the navel, which is linked through the mortal cavity (sheng szu ch'iao at the root of the penis). This is 'fire in the house of water'.

page 59

When spirit and vitality vibrate in the lower tan tien cavity (under the navel), the latter is called the stove and when they rise to the upper tan tien (in the brain) the latter is called the cauldron. In the absence of spiritand vitality neither stove nor cauldron can be spooken of. Hence the old patriarch Chung Hsu Tsu said: 'the cauldron is originally non-existent'. The patriarch Lu Tsu said: 'Only those who know what stove, cauldron and bellows really are can use them efficiently.'

 

...whatever that means

Edited October 27, 2008 by sheng zhen

[sheng zhen]

[sheng zhen]

And of course Trunk has allready done A LOT of research on Kan and Li presented on his site www.alchemicaltaoism.com

 

I should remember to check that site before I spend valuble time on searching for things that is allready easily available on Trunks site.

 

Thanks A LOT Trunk!

[sheng zhen]

Just want to add this to conclude my Kan and Li thread.

 

exorcist_1699 @ Jun 11 2009, 12:33 PM)

 

Taoism never separates Water from Fire, what it emphasizes is the intercourse between them .Thinking that you can either cultivate the Water or Fire aspect of Taoism is absolutely wrong .

 

At post-heavenly level where TCM works , if without the intercourse between Water and Fire, never can you

have a healthy body, in fact, never can you sleep well in any night . So, at this level , there are always some intercourse, inflow and outflow between the two ends ; the Taiji inside us is turning day by day ...thinking that spirit is always at one end is illusory....

 

But what is more important is what the so-called Genuine Water and Fire at the pre-heavenly level . Yet without

Genuine Earth , post-heavenly Water and Fire can't be consolidated and upgraded to a new level , and ,it is the intercourse between Genuine Water and Fire that leads us to everlasting health and beauty.

 

QUOTE(sheng zhen @ Jun 11 2009, 03:09 AM)

 

Very very interesting! Could you explaing a little more about Genuine Earth and why that is needed for Genuine Fire and Water? And what is the difference between fire and water and Genuine fire and water?

 

exorcist_1699

 

It is the sinking of our spirit (post-heavenly Fire) and the rising of jing and qi (post-heavenly Water )from the lower abdomen ,their intercourse that makes our sleep possible .Overusing our mind or having too much sex always undermine this process , therefore leads to sleepless night.

 

Yet the most that an intercourse between Post-heavenly Fire and Water can give us is an energetic face after a good sleep, it can't grant us the privilege of forever youth ; it is the intercourse between pre-heavenly Fire and Water that makes it possible. However, it requires Genuine Earth's help to accomplish .

 

Genuine Earth is in fact Genuine Intention(真意), a state of mind deeper and higher than just being peaceful and mindless : after an abrupt awakening from chaos , you find your mind absolutely clear and consolidated,your hearing absolutely calm and seemingly noiseless, your breathing stop, your whole body's energy consolidated .... In that case, you start to understand how a Genuine Mind ( Genuine Fire) can be so different from a daily trivial mind and how it gives rise to another state of consolidated jing and qi (Genuine Water) , so vivid and delicate ...

 

Genuine Earth is also a pre-condition for grasping pre-heavenly qi from outside, as Master Zhang Zhi Yang of the South School said: " 真土擒真铅" .

 

 

QUOTE(Pietro @ Jun 11 2009, 05:15 AM)

 

 

Can you tell us your school? It sounds like Quanzhen, is that correct?

 

Best Regards,

Pietro

 

 

Although the North School ( QuanZhen) is said to be emphasizing or starting from nourishing spirit/ upper dantian/ single cultivation , and the South school is said to be emphasizing or starting from refining jing/ lower dantian/ dual cultivation ,the common aim of both Schools is the same : first the intercourse between post-heavenly Water and Fire , then between Genuine Water and Fire.

[Pietro]

Hello Sheng Zhen,

finally I read this thread.

 

...

And then I read the Tien Shan Qigung course where they say Kan and Li is the union of mind and breath. A process (as I understand it) that happens when your mind is still and united with your breath naturally, without any directing of focus or thoughts running wild. Now THAT seems a lot more tangible and true.

...

 

Can you tell me more about this (in particular about the part in bold).

Where did you found it described, who teaches it, what are the effects, which practitioners do we have around here doing this, and so on. You know, Tien Shen Qi Gung is pretty generic. I would be surprised if there was only one school with that name.

 

Regards,

Pietro

[WhiteTiger]

Thanks a lot YMWong!

 

I know! Mind can be dangerous. Or if not dangerous, very misleading

 

I second that. Thanks for the contribution!

[sheng zhen]

Hello Sheng Zhen,

finally I read this thread.

Can you tell me more about this (in particular about the part in bold).

Where did you found it described, who teaches it, what are the effects, which practitioners do we have around here doing this, and so on. You know, Tien Shen Qi Gung is pretty generic. I would be surprised if there was only one school with that name.

 

Regards,

Pietro

Tien Shan Qi Gung is a correspondance course from the 80's or 70's that is available as torrent now. Its a long time since I read it but I think it is a 3 year program where you get new excercise every month. Mainly teaching techniques to control the breath. I think it was Adam West that gave us the link some time ago.

 

I dont know much more about it.

[Pietro]

Tien Shan Qi Gung is a correspondance course from the 80's or 70's that is available as torrent now. Its a long time since I read it but I think it is a 3 year program where you get new excercise every month. Mainly teaching techniques to control the breath. I think it was Adam West that gave us the link some time ago.

 

I dont know much more about it.

 

Thanks, following your info I could find it:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...amp;#entry64951

 

Hey guys,

 

Some of you may have this program, if so, let us know what you think or what you have heard about it. I have looked through it and it looks great - a comprehensive and complete documentation of an authentic tradition, apparently(?).

 

Interestingly, they work the Micro-Cosmic Orbit both ways - up the spine and down the spine. Please see the below link to the compete PDF lessons.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/425579/The-Compl...en-Tao-Chi-Gung

 

Here is a link to downloading the PDF and video instructional files - please make a donation to the publisher if you find benifet in it, as you are so inclined.

 

http://www.mininova.org/tor/1196992

 

Description:

Qi Gong Complete Course

 

There are a lot of Qi Gong courses on the market. And all of them show a variety of movements and standing postures and all of them claim that that is Qi Gong. But most of them are offered by the Chinese who actually try to hide the real qi gong from non-Chinese. And the rest of them are offered by deluded Westerners who have not really found their own Qi but merely mimic their Chinese teachers. They offer the branches and leaves but hide the root. The root is the calm breath-energy circulating at will throughout the body.

 

The Tien Tao Qi Gong Correspondence Course originally cost over US$300 and you can still probably find it being offered for that price. And the videos were another US$300 in total. But they all are worth every penny because they actually teach you how to find and to circulate your Qi, your Life Force. And since Qi is the basis of all Chinese Kungfu and Chinese Culture, if you can find it within yourself, you will be able to unravel all of the mysteries, all of the religions, all of the cultural treasures of Asia because you will KNOW what they are talking about and what they are actually teaching. And your power of kungfu will be increased a hundred fold.

 

Make no mistake: Learning qi gong is both easy and difficult. It is easy because sitting quietly and breathing in a special way is easy. But it is difficult because sitting quietly and breathing gently without your mind filling with 10,000 thoughts is not easy. Calming the Mind and relaxing the muscles is difficult, but once you can do it, it's easy. And once you can perceive your True Mind, then Enlightenment is not as distant as you may have supposed.

 

Although this torrent contains ten videos, the real treasure is found in the written lessons, themselves: The Tien Tao Qi Gong Correspondence Course. Read and study the course carefully; practice just one of the exercises daily for a month each, and at at the end of ten months you will be an adept at qi gong.

 

Contained in this torrent: ten videos and one Adobe Acrobat file:

 

Mystery_of_Qi.wmv

Tien_Tao_Qi_Gong.wmv

Kong_Jing_1.wmv

Kong_Jing_2.wmv

Kong_Jing_3.wmv

Kong_Jing_4.wmv

6_Healing_Breaths.wmv

8_Active_Methods.wmv

Keep_Fit_Qi_Gong.wmv

Muscle_Tendon_Change.wmv

 

Tien Tao Qi_Gong_Lessons.pdf <== the real treasure

 

Total cost of all videos and written lessons retail: between US$600 and US$700. So, if you find benefit from these lessons, please contact the publishers and offer a donation for this amount.

 

Videos are color, Windows Media format, English language, vary in length.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

 

 

The links have moved around a bit.

Now you can find them from:

http://www.4shared.com/file/65234935/14317...o_Chi_Gung.html

for the pdf and the torrent is available from here:

www.btmon.com/Other/Unsorted/Qi_Gong_Course_Complete.rar.torrent.html

It's the link 25 tits on the left, 5 bums down under.

 

Regards,

Pietro

[WhiteTiger]

Edited June 15, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[sheng zhen]

One more level of Kan and Li described by Dr. Mae-Wan Ho

 

ISIS Report 17/06/09

Water and Fire

 

The Body Does Burn Water

#####################

 

Burning water is a way of life for all organisms, in animals

as in plants, with a little help from sunlight perhaps

Dr. Mae-Wan Ho

 

Can organisms like animals and humans burn water? Burning or

oxidising water is what green plants do with the greatest of

ease. They depend on absorbing energetic photons from

sunlight to make water give up electrons. A great deal of

current effort ia dedicated to artificial photosynthesis [1]

(Harvesting Energy from Sunlight with Artificial

Photosynthesis, SiS 43), and oxidising water (H2O) to oxygen

(O2) is certainly half of the reaction; the other half is

the production of hydrogen (H2) that can actually be burnt

as fuel.

 

But can other organisms such as animals and human beings do

the same? Not in that way, but they burn water all the same.

They oxidize water, not to get energy as much as to create

exquisitely targeted local weapons for killing bacteria and

other microbes. (The recent discovery that the water in

cells and tissues of living organisms may be charged up by

exposure to infrared light suggest that animals too, may

depend on sunlight to energize themselves [2] (Water

Electric, SiS 43). I have often wondered why I feel so

energetic after sunbathing.)

 

Antibodies that burn water

 

Some years ago, a team of Californian researchers discovered

the surprising ability of antibodies produced by the immune

system to create highly reactive chemicals that cells can

use to cleanse themselves and poison invaders, by burning or

oxidizing water. Chemists Richard Lerner and Paul Wentworth

at the Scripps Research institute of La Jolla, stumbled upon

this new role of antibodies by accident [3]. They found

antibodies generating H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) when exposed

to UV light. They tested numerous other antibodies and the

result was the same each time. The antibodies were

generating H2O2 from singlet oxygen (1O2), an energetic and

highly reactive form of the oxygen molecule produced when a

source of energy, such as UV light excites the ordinary

triplet oxygen (3O2), catalyzed by the antibody.

 

Singlet oxygen and hydrogen peroxide belong to a class of

molecules called reactive oxygen species (ROS) that have

become the subject of much research effort in recent years

(see Box).

 

Read the rest of this article here

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/theBodyDoesBurnWater.php

[Li TaoRen]

In my understanding, Taoist teachings were cloaked in metaphor and cryptic language for several reasons.

One being to promote self-understanding over dogmatics, another; to keep information out of the wrong hands. Persecution, yet another reason. "Cauldrons" have been used in reference to the triple burners, as well as the three dantians. In cultivation, the 5 elements are important to bring balance to the five yin organs. Kan and Li. Fire and Water are generally speaking the most out of balance. To get back on track; the cryptic language makes things seem more complicated than they are- especially in an intellectual and skeptical age. This balance and union will naturally occur with any well rounded internal discipline. Your own insight, and biofeedback will guide you through the process. If a certain system has yielded good results and is tried and true- practice. Often we can simplify without deviation. Simplify, don't modify. In Taoist teachings, once you get past the mere words things become very clear and laughably simple

[JustARandomPanda]

Are Kan and Li taught in KAP?

[Way]

Are Kan and Li taught in KAP?

 

Yes, a simple but effective version.

 

Way

[JustARandomPanda]

Yes, a simple but effective version.

 

Way

 

Woohoo.

 

Ok...I know I'm supposed to become unattached to attain enlightenment but the more I hear the more it seems I'm failing Enlightenment 101.