Kan and Li

[sheng zhen]

[宁]

Sorry but you're mistaken: Master Chia didn't say about "just visualization"...

 

 

The System involves all the senses converged into one. Sensing is transformed into living act.

It's part of the Fusion Formulas, that's why you cannot attend College before graduating Highschool.

 

By the way, that's why I'm still in Kindergarden level with it all...

It's more contentfull...

 

 

L1

[sheng zhen]

Sorry but you're mistaken: Master Chia didn't say about "just visualization"...

The System involves all the senses converged into one. Sensing is transformed into living act.

It's part of the Fusion Formulas, that's why you cannot attend College before graduating Highschool.

 

By the way, that's why I'm still in Kindergarden level with it all...

It's more contentfull...

L1

Thanks Little1. I was hoping for your answer And I hope you will continue this discussion a little bit.

 

Sensing is also sort of visualization, from my perspective. It is creating something out of your own conditioning instead of letting it happen naturally by being in stillness, like mentioned in the quote.

 

From my perspective it looks like with visualization(including all 5 senses), we still have to wait for the union of breath and mind to take place. But in addition we have a lot higher risk of getting stuck in delution.

 

I can visualize whatever I want, and I allways use all my senses to make it a physical sensation. My teacher calls it "perseptering" in Norwegian, translates to something like "percepting" or "perceptation" in english. Its including all senses, emotions and everything to make it as close to the real experience as possible.

I can get the MCO going with visualization in no-time. And Im shure if I spend one week visualizing a cauldron steaming in my stomach it will "feel" very real. But is it real? I suspect it is not the really real thing. And then what is the point?

 

How many years have you been doing the Fusion forumlas, Little1? And how do we know when to move from first-Fusion to the next Fusion-level?

[宁]

Thanks Little1. I was hoping for your answer And I hope you will continue this discussion a little bit.

 

Sensing is also sort of visualization, from my perspective. It is creating something out of your own conditioning instead of letting it happen naturally by being in stillness, like mentioned in the quote.

 

From my perspective it looks like with visualization(including all 5 senses), we still have to wait for the union of breath and mind to take place. But in addition we have a lot higher risk of getting stuck in delution.

 

I can visualize whatever I want, and I allways use all my senses to make it a physical sensation. My teacher calls it "perseptering" in Norwegian, translates to something like "percepting" or "perceptation" in english. Its including all senses, emotions and everything to make it as close to the real experience as possible.

I can get the MCO going with visualization in no-time. And Im shure if I spend one week visualizing a cauldron steaming in my stomach it will "feel" very real. But is it real? I suspect it is not the really real thing. And then what is the point?

 

How many years have you been doing the Fusion forumlas, Little1? And how do we know when to move from first-Fusion to the next Fusion-level?

 

 

The trouble with Master Chia's system is that it looks simple and westernized only on the first glance... I know many won't agree and maybe I'll have do *duck and cover*

 

I said it before, there are great teachers out there, that are still digging deep into this system.

I don't know why they do it.

I'm just following some footsteps, and, where I'm going and am until now, I like it. It really brings clearness, gratitude and wisdom. Health too, prosperity also... It seems these are all connected.

 

When I speak to people that practice a more traditional way of daoism, it feels so different.

Someplaces daoism is a very precise thing, just as newspaper writing or I don't know, house building, even in the sense of a sort of a proffesion. I still have no definitive conclusions on this, still researching.

But, coming back to what I was writing above, there are people that, by dao and daoism understand "the way of Nature", "the middle way"... So you see and feel it in their lifestyle. Some of them have special abilities, and even a close connection with the Heavens, that they use to help others. And just when you'd say, maybe they'll move on to something more interesting, they say: "Master Chia's system is just very good, very good. You only need to just practice it... There are more out there talking about it than practicing it". And there they go, studying it even closer, and closer. And after all these years, I ask them: "What practice do you do?" They say: "Oh some Inner Smile, some Healing Sounds, some MCO...".

 

I mean, they don't go on for something more "special" or powerfull.

 

I can't advice you, cause you see, I'd be putting myself the same questions and problems if I were you. And I actually did... they led me to trouble, but it seems to end up good, I think and hope. Can't tell more about it. - But I always have the case of these wonderful people before my eyes. I cannot deny any of it... Belive me, I have a very doubtfull mind, and searched it all inside out. And I'm not done yet.

 

 

Anyway,

 

the system seems to be like this...

you can go on and skip some of the practices, or jump to more advanced if you'd like.

But it's more of a process of refinement... each of the formulas are stages of refinement of the energy.

You can go further, but the Basics are always like a warm and welcoming home.

It's not like you go on and get to another level because you are curious with it. Your being will feel when you need to move to the next level.

Sometimes you move to the next level for a little time, then coming back.

It takes time before you cristallize your new position, you understand.

 

So, in conclusion I never moved to practice Fusion on a regular basis. Sometime I do have the kind of power and focus one needs for it, and I do it.

 

I understand your concerns though, regarding what is true or not. For me, the only proof I need right now is the life of the practicioner. If their life is well arranged, has harmony and power, intelligence and wisdom, I'd be a fool not to learn what they learn, whatever that is. I don't like to concern myself with scholarly matters on this, this would come second, and only as a hobby.

 

I hope you'll like my answer. To keep a record of it, I'll paste it on my article section also.

 

 

Cheers

 

L1

 

 

PS: Of course I always suspect it must be more to it, it always is. So it's still work in progress for me... Like I said, kindergarden...

[idquest]

But it's more of a process of refinement... each of the formulas are stages of refinement of the energy.

You can go further, but the Basics are always like a warm and welcoming home.

It's not like you go on and get to another level because you are curious with it. Your being will feel when you need to move to the next level.

Sometimes you move to the next level for a little time, then coming back.

It takes time before you cristallize your new position, you understand.

 

This is exactly how I feel the Chia's system after practicing it for a while. I try next formulas and then go back to basics to refine.

[sheng zhen]

I hope you'll like my answer. To keep a record of it, I'll paste it on my article section also.

Cheers

 

L1

PS: Of course I always suspect it must be more to it, it always is. So it's still work in progress for me... Like I said, kindergarden...

Thanks Little1. But I think you are exposed now. This wisdom could never have come from someone in kindergarden

 

Yes, his system looks very westernized on the surface. But I'm a sceptic about what is underneath the surface too.

 

Wish you could say more about how these question led you to trouble though

 

I understand how the basics feel good. I do my stillness meditation every day. The first meditation I learned and did several years before I started reclessly experimenting with all other kinds of meditations. Like all kinds of visualizations and energywork. Now Im back to just regular breathing and stillness, and that seems to work a whole lot better for my life and evolution than all the visualizations I have done over the years.

 

Ok, so back to Kan and Li. From what I can gather it is a natural effect of the mind uniting with the breath in stillness. And this naturally generates energy in the Dan Tien to circulate in MCO. Without any visualization or mind doing any directing and controlling.

 

The the few moments Ive had some experiences that I can relate to this is so different from what I have visualized that I'm loosing all faith in visualization(with any or all senses) or any mind-creations. When I feel the energy move and I follow it with my mind it dissipates and I loose it. So I put more and more faith into just stillness and natural development.

[宁]

Trouble? Simple... if you are to study something, in a way that truely changes your life, I don't think it's just chanse. It has to be destiny. Imagine you playing with your destiny. Which I picture to be like an overwhelming force. It has the power to push you back into your riverbed, everytime you try to go abroad.

I remembered something about Castaneda now: it's a page in one of his early books, where the Indios are discussing about christian saints, with Don Juan... DJ said, they are not your protectors, they don't protect you. The others said, well, they forgive our sins and advice us not to sin any more. DJ said, if they were your protectors, they would teach you, and then even force you to be good, and not to sin anymore.

Coming from a quasiEastern mindset, I can understand what he said, although it can sound outrageous to an American, or any liberty fan. I hope you can.

Life's not simple.

I may spoil all the wisdom you seen in the other article, but it's the truth. We have little choise.

"Choise is a word invented by those with power for those who have not any". - The Merovingian

"The only freedom that a warrior has is to be impecable. Any other thing would mean his annihilation." DJ

 

 

 

 

Back to Kan and Li, I haven't practiced it. But if it was as it is with the basics, it could be like this: anything you work to get it moving, it doesn't matter, as long as you are doing progress. Those who stand and wait for things to happen, I think they have misread their cultivation books.

Back to the river analogy, you can push the water - that's not very smart. Or you can make a riverbed for the water to flow into. And I feel this is what proper practice does. The inner smile.

[sheng zhen]

Ken Cohens Kan and Li too... its all about just visualizalizing water in the stomach being vaporized by fire from the heart. He even say this visualization can change the actual structure of the bones, prevent osteporosis and strengthen the imunesystem. Strengthen the immunesystem thats ok, any meditation does that. But change the actual structure of the bones??? ...I would like to see that happen to someone visualizing this...

 

Ken Cohen seem to be such a great guy. Someone mentioned he was even an ordained daoist priest. Why does he present Kan and Li as a simple visualization? Did the ancient taoist immortals really visualize water from the stomach being vaporized from fire in heart and off they went through the Kan and Li process??

 

I just cant believe it...there seem to be something fundamentally wrong here...

[Procurator]

Ken Cohens Kan and Li too... its all about just visualizalizing water in the stomach being vaporized by fire from the heart. Did the ancient taoist immortals really visualize water from the stomach being vaporized from fire in heart and off they went through the Kan and Li process??

 

I just cant believe it...there seem to be something fundamentally wrong here...

and there is. cohen is a fraud.

[Trunk]

Kan & Li shows up in different ways in different schools. There's a variety of methods and depths to mixing and transforming. The Book of Balance and Harmony talks about different versions of this. (If I can find the passage I'll post it.)

 

One that I remember, not sure where I first heard it, is "putting conscious knowledge under real knowledge". That in mundane consciousness, conscious knowledge normally rises and dominates as a kind of frenetic unanchored false heat and we lose the presence of real knowledge. And that a primary version of kan & li is to submit conscious knowledge to real knowledge. And - from a certain point of view - without that, none of the alchemical formulas are going to work but will only end up in a tangle. And that, with that, any of the methods will work. (Somewhat of an exaggeration, but you get my point.)

[SiliconValley]

..

Edited October 17, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Dog]

[sheng zhen]

Kan & Li shows up in different ways in different schools. There's a variety of methods and depths to mixing and transforming. The Book of Balance and Harmony talks about different versions of this. (If I can find the passage I'll post it.)

 

That would be great Trunk! Hope you can do that

 

I also want to add that the pearl that appears from breathing and keeping the attention fixed in the Dan Tien, is a completely different pearl than the one I create with visualization. I see why they call it a pearl, or a spark, a small ball of heat, it looks and feels like it. But that dosent mean we get the same result from visualizing it. Conscious knowledge is not the same as real knowledge, like Trunk said.

 

Unless you are so good at this that what you visualize is what happens. But then again, that would suggest you have allready gone through the union of Kan and Li, so your mind and breath operates as one. That kind of visualization wont compare to the visualization normal people do because it is not visualization, it is real life action...

[宁]

sheng zhen,

 

what you are searching for is found out in the xian tian side of the practice. one cannot jump to that, it happens naturally as you continue the practice of the formulas. after you transfer your awareness to the nonphysical. this cannot happen by force. it's a process. after that you learn to work directly into the nonphysical, and see what methods are effective and what methods are not. you may have some suprises. as Trunk said, there's more than one way to do things...

 

Good luck bro'

 

L1

[sheng zhen]

sheng zhen,

 

what you are searching for is found out in the xian tian side of the practice. one cannot jump to that, it happens naturally as you continue the practice of the formulas. after you transfer your awareness to the nonphysical. this cannot happen by force. it's a process. after that you learn to work directly into the nonphysical, and see what methods are effective and what methods are not. you may have some suprises. as Trunk said, there's more than one way to do things...

 

Good luck bro'

 

L1

aha, that might be!! Xian Tian... I dont know. But from what you describe it sounds like what Im looking for, yes. Thanks Little1

 

So if I understand this correctly, there is a Xian Tian and Huo Tian part of Kan and Li? Where the Huo Tian part is visualization or breathing or whatever method, and the Xian Tian part is the actual process?

[wudangquan]

I have never tried Mantak Chia's material, so I'm not fit to comment on it.

 

But I just wanted to add that (I THINK) Kan and Li mean VERY different things at different levels.

 

J

[宁]

aha, that might be!! Xian Tian... I dont know. But from what you describe it sounds like what Im looking for, yes. Thanks Little1

 

So if I understand this correctly, there is a Xian Tian and Huo Tian part of Kan and Li? Where the Huo Tian part is visualization or breathing or whatever method, and the Xian Tian part is the actual process?

 

 

there's xian tian and hou tian for any level of the practice.

when you involve feeling it's the hou tian.

 

the transfer of consciousness to the energy should happen during the Fusion formulas.

but this doesn't mean that everyone who practices Fusion can pass to that level.

 

actually i think this is kind of a gate: if you pass it, the doors of the formulas open wide.

that's why people that got to kan and li or even sealing the senses, and then started saying it's not what they expected...- they didn't follow the natural development of the elixir, aka, the energy, which in the formula of the Fusion becomes a receptacle for human consciousness, in a very precise way.

 

Master Chia himself said that he studied this matter a long time, before he came to any acheivement.

 

glad to be of some service, bro'

 

take care now

 

Emanuel S.

 

all you need to know is in what you study. i don't know how involved is your teacher in studying the system, but it'w wonder within wonder... it doesn't bring up instantaneous bliss or illumination, but it helps one refine his being... until when? it depends on destiny. but it can take one pretty far, in one lifetime. it doesn't bring power first, yet it develops wisdom and compassion, and health, both physical and emotional. that's not easy to find.

let us dig deep in what life put before our noses.

you can follow Winn's doubts and research on it if you want. neither he did accept it on the spot. now he seems he made his mind up. and still he remains a researcher...

[sheng zhen]

I have never tried Mantak Chia's material, so I'm not fit to comment on it.

 

But I just wanted to add that (I THINK) Kan and Li mean VERY different things at different levels.

 

J

wudangquan, maby you want to say a little about how you Kan and Li from your practice? Was it Quanzhen your where doing?

[wudangquan]

No I don't want to disrupt an existing conversation talking about me or what I think.

 

I respond to pms' though.

[sheng zhen]

No I don't want to disrupt an existing conversation talking about me or what I think.

 

I respond to pms' though.

hahaha

 

Suddenly you sound just like my girlfriend!

 

A pms is on the way!

Edited October 19, 2008 by sheng zhen

[sheng zhen]

[thelerner]

Thanks for sharing the Pure Yang Mudra, fascinating way to feel the IChing.

 

 

 

I've always thought there was an exercise called Kan & Li(Chia, Winn & other systems have it), involving visualizing heat, cold and creating steam. Then there is the state of KanandLi; where the practitioner has gone through Kundalini. Glenn Morris described as a profound physical and psychological experience. Having your mental and energetic clock cleaned, if you're circuits are running clear its a wonderful experience, if not it can be a sledge hammer.

 

 

Michael

[Vajrasattva]

Thanks for sharing the Pure Yang Mudra, fascinating way to feel the IChing.

I've always thought there was an exercise called Kan & Li(Chia, Winn & other systems have it), involving visualizing heat, cold and creating steam. Then there is the state of KanandLi; where the practitioner has gone through Kundalini. Glenn Morris described as a profound physical and psychological experience. Having your mental and energetic clock cleaned, if you're circuits are running clear its a wonderful experience, if not it can be a sledge hammer.

Michael

 

 

Going through real Kan & Li is the key.

[Dog]

Found something interesting about Kan and Li and a Pure Yang Mudra as presented here.

 

 

 

This might not relate to the Kan and Li process, but it is still about Kan and Li and very interesting

A sixth finger in the ancient times seemed to be very special world wide. Now they often cut them off considering it to be a birth defect. I figure with proper fusion training the lack of a sixth finger can be over come. But the ancients considered it special and only those with six fingers where entrusted with special tasks. I read some were that ancient giants often had six fingers.

[sheng zhen]

 

Going through real Kan & Li is the key.

Vajrasattva, would you be so kind to explain what is the real Kan and Li??

 

That is exactly what Im trying to confirm with my research here...what the real Kan and Li really is.

Edited October 20, 2008 by sheng zhen