Enlightenment Poll

[Jakara]

I was just curious, do you think enlightenment is:

 

a ) A physical (or energetic) change in the mind/body

b ) Solely a realization of the mind (no energetic difference required)

c ) Neither or both

 

(Can a realization occur in the mind without changing its energy patterns?)

 

Thanks,

Jak

Edited October 23, 2008 by Jakara

[Aetherous]

C (both).

Edited October 23, 2008 by Scotty

[thedole]

I would say all is relative and that there is no definitive truth! Not only beauty is in the eye of the beholder..

[ddilulo_06]

c) both

[h.uriahr]

Enlightenment is something that I believe only a few people have attained and can answer that question and sadly they arent around anymore. It's not just realization of somesort because millions of people, I'm sure, would be enlightened. Can you compare your enlightenment to that of Christ or Buddha? If you cannot confidently say that you are on the level, mentally, with Christ or Buddha then you arent enlightened. I do believe that there's more to it than mental but you get my point.

Edited October 23, 2008 by MPWay

[Aetherous]

Enlightenment is something that I believe only a few people have attained and can answer that question and sadly they arent around anymore.

 

That is certainly a belief. Have you met everyone in the world, to know that they aren't around anymore? Do you know what enlightenment is, to be able to recognize it or not?

 

It's not just realization of somesort because millions of people, I'm sure, would be enlightened.

 

What do you think it is? I agree with you here...just wondering what your thoughts are.

 

Can you compare your enlightenment to that of Christ or Buddha? If you cannot confidently say that you are on the level, mentally, with Christ or Buddha then you arent enlightened.

 

It's one thing to respect masters, but another thing entirely to put them on an illusory pedestal that's way too high for anyone to attain.

 

It helps to read what Christ and Buddha actually had to say...rather than focusing on their multitudes of followers, and miracles.

 

Then to take their words, and use them as a guide to find out for ourselves. That is exactly what Christ and Buddha suggested to do, as well. To not believe until having experienced. To seek perfection for ourselves.

[JackSquat]

c) both

[mantis]

Enlightenment is something that I believe only a few people have attained and can answer that question and sadly they arent around anymore. It's not just realization of somesort because millions of people, I'm sure, would be enlightened. Can you compare your enlightenment to that of Christ or Buddha? If you cannot confidently say that you are on the level, mentally, with Christ or Buddha then you arent enlightened. I do believe that there's more to it than mental but you get my point.

 

there is a name for what you're talking about but i don't remember it right now - but yes, people like jesus and buddha where bodhisattvas, which is imo on a whole 'nother level; maybe lin ai wei can comment on this.

[Taiji Bum]

A) A physical (or energetic) change in the mind/body

[thelerner]

Both, they can happen separately. One can lead to the other or not. There are gentle souls like Eckhardt Tolle who is on one scale of psychological enlightenment but is described as fragile, and high level martial artists whose voltage you can feel as they walk into the room.

 

 

Michael

[gossamer]

( C ) Both

Edited October 23, 2008 by gossamer

[h.uriahr]

That is certainly a belief. Have you met everyone in the world, to know that they aren't around anymore? Do you know what enlightenment is, to be able to recognize it or not?

What do you think it is? I agree with you here...just wondering what your thoughts are.

It's one thing to respect masters, but another thing entirely to put them on an illusory pedestal that's way too high for anyone to attain.

 

It helps to read what Christ and Buddha actually had to say...rather than focusing on their multitudes of followers, and miracles.

 

Then to take their words, and use them as a guide to find out for ourselves. That is exactly what Christ and Buddha suggested to do, as well. To not believe until having experienced. To seek perfection for ourselves.

I cant claim to have met everyone lol. It's possible that certain people alive today do have real enlightenment but I'm sure the chances of anyone meeting them are slim to none..

 

Are you saying that Christ and Buddha were normal people? I'm not sure if that question is portraying what I really mean. I cant think of a better way to put it though. None of Christ's disciples ever accomplished his level of enlightenment. There is no illusory pedestal. The reality of it is that Christ and Buddha both obtained the real, actual enlightenment. It's not impossible to reach. I believe that everyone can achieve this through an almost guaranteed lifetime of practice.

 

I cant even make an attempt to comment on what I believe enlightenment is. Same goes for speaking on God. I cant even begin to describe my feeling and beliefs on the two because for me, the words arent there. I know this though, enlightenment isnt just a wake up to realization. Once you progress to the real enlightenment I dont think you can ever come back, forever changed by it.

 

No doubt that by reading their words you can follow paths to enlightenment but it takes dedication. You dont just read it go bam, I'm enlightened. Same goes for buddhism. If that were so then every church on every corner would be full of enlightened beings.

 

Realization does not = enlightenment

[Aetherous]

Are you saying that Christ and Buddha were normal people? I'm not sure if that question is portraying what I really mean. I cant think of a better way to put it though. None of Christ's disciples ever accomplished his level of enlightenment. There is no illusory pedestal. The reality of it is that Christ and Buddha both obtained the real, actual enlightenment. It's not impossible to reach. I believe that everyone can achieve this through an almost guaranteed lifetime of practice.

 

I cant even make an attempt to comment on what I believe enlightenment is.

 

How can you say that they obtained real enlightenment? Where is the evidence?

 

You didn't ever meet them, since they lived many years ago. So what is the key thing which makes you think they were enlightened? Is it a certain saying that clues you into it? Or the fact that miraculous things happened around them? I'd like a specific answer if you want to continue talking about this...then we can get somewhere!

 

How can you judge someone as enlightened when you don't know what it is?

 

I know this though, enlightenment isnt just a wake up to realization. Once you progress to the real enlightenment I dont think you can ever come back, forever changed by it.

 

Wouldn't truly realizing and waking up be a forever changed thing?

 

You dont just read it go bam, I'm enlightened.

 

Agreed.

 

Realization does not = enlightenment

 

How do you know, having not attained it?

 

Good discussion.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Couldn't really tell ya, as I'm not enlightened.

 

Though if you read stories like Journey to the West and other folklore you hear of enlightened masters doing some pretty amazing things sometimes physical! (stuff like changing into animals, running fast, teleporting, lifting something heavy, etc) So... is there a physical aspect? Or do they just totally transcend physical all together? I don't know... I'm not enlightened!

Edited October 23, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[h.uriahr]

How can you say that they obtained real enlightenment? Where is the evidence?

 

You didn't ever meet them, since they lived many years ago. So what is the key thing which makes you think they were enlightened? Is it a certain saying that clues you into it? Or the fact that miraculous things happened around them? I'd like a specific answer if you want to continue talking about this...then we can get somewhere!

 

How can you judge someone as enlightened when you don't know what it is?

Wouldn't truly realizing and waking up be a forever changed thing?

Agreed.

How do you know, having not attained it?

 

Good discussion.

The evidence for me is in the teachings and the miracles performed. Walking on water, making limbs grow back, etc are abilities that arent your 'run of the mill' abilities. The abilities themselves, I believe dont actually show enlightenment but advancement in training that is beyond normal. I perceive them as enlightened mainly due to the teachings, but the abilities due help a bit lol.

 

My own belief on enlightenment goes like this. When a person first starts meditation he ( I only use he because writing he/she would take longer, so I'm not at all excluding females. FEMALES ROCK!) can use only a small part of his brain and body, because both arent "open" yet. So, when your mind is doing what it can with chi manipulation and your body is absorbing, circulating, whatever, it is slowly becoming used to it and opens slowly. I believe that due to the adaptability of the human body, your body becomes accustomed to chi work and starts building up, just like muscles and lifting weights. As you continueously work your body you are working your mind aswell, so your mind starts feeling and controlling chi alot better. Eventually, your mind opens up and you become enlightened. Enlightened to the point where you can literally do anything.

 

My description is kind of funky, I'm not good with words... There's obviously more to it than that.

 

Now, when's the last time you met someone who walked on water?

 

The evidence for me is in the teachings and the miracles performed. Walking on water, making limbs grow back, etc are abilities that arent your 'run of the mill' abilities. The abilities themselves, I believe dont actually show enlightenment but advancement in training that is beyond normal. I perceive them as enlightened mainly due to the teachings, but the abilities due help a bit lol.

 

My own belief on enlightenment goes like this. When a person first starts meditation he ( I only use he because writing he/she would take longer, so I'm not at all excluding females. FEMALES ROCK!) can use only a small part of his brain and body, because both arent "open" yet. So, when your mind is doing what it can with chi manipulation and your body is absorbing, circulating, whatever, it is slowly becoming used to it and opens slowly. I believe that due to the adaptability of the human body, your body becomes accustomed to chi work and starts building up, just like muscles and lifting weights. As you continueously work your body you are working your mind aswell, so your mind starts feeling and controlling chi alot better. Eventually, your mind opens up and you become enlightened. Enlightened to the point where you can literally do anything.

 

My description is kind of funky, I'm not good with words... There's obviously more to it than that.

 

Now, when's the last time you met someone who walked on water?

 

Before you ask, I've never met anyone who can walk on water

[Aetherous]

I've never seen anything which really blew my mind. If I saw someone walking on water, yea that would blow my mind. Do I believe it happened...I don't know man. I'm the type who needs to see it to believe it, and also test it a bit to see that it's not just a trick. Even if it is Jesus himself...I can't just believe it.

 

They say siddhis and enlightenment are like two opposite endeavors. If you try to cultivate powers, you're going the opposite direction of attaining enlightenment. I tend to agree, kind of. The motivation for powers comes from the very thing which enlightenment aims to eliminate: the illusion that there's a self which controls everything. But once enlightened do powers come to you naturally? Perhaps, although I've had no experience with that.

 

Anyway, my main point about miracles is that some people are really gullible, some people make things up, some people are nuts. Maybe miracles and powers aren't real at all.

 

As you continueously work your body you are working your mind aswell, so your mind starts feeling and controlling chi alot better. Eventually, your mind opens up and you become enlightened. Enlightened to the point where you can literally do anything.

 

I agree that the mind can open up as a result of good energy work. Or to think of it in a different way, which I experienced myself, energy can suddenly flow drastically as a result of a real enlightenment experience. Or maybe not as a result but the two go hand in hand for sure.

 

But I couldn't literally do anything. Is there an enlightenment which enables you to do this?

 

Perhaps in fantasy land. If anyone disagrees, then show me what you can do.

[passenger1980]

The evidence for me is in the teachings and the miracles performed. Walking on water, making limbs grow back, etc are abilities that arent your 'run of the mill' abilities. The abilities themselves, I believe dont actually show enlightenment but advancement in training that is beyond normal. I perceive them as enlightened mainly due to the teachings, but the abilities due help a bit lol.

 

My own belief on enlightenment goes like this. When a person first starts meditation he ( I only use he because writing he/she would take longer, so I'm not at all excluding females. FEMALES ROCK!) can use only a small part of his brain and body, because both arent "open" yet. So, when your mind is doing what it can with chi manipulation and your body is absorbing, circulating, whatever, it is slowly becoming used to it and opens slowly. I believe that due to the adaptability of the human body, your body becomes accustomed to chi work and starts building up, just like muscles and lifting weights. As you continueously work your body you are working your mind aswell, so your mind starts feeling and controlling chi alot better. Eventually, your mind opens up and you become enlightened. Enlightened to the point where you can literally do anything.

 

My description is kind of funky, I'm not good with words... There's obviously more to it than that.

 

Now, when's the last time you met someone who walked on water?

Before you ask, I've never met anyone who can walk on water

 

I didn't know Jesus used to meditate.

[Gerard]

MENTAL.

[h.uriahr]

I've never seen anything which really blew my mind. If I saw someone walking on water, yea that would blow my mind. Do I believe it happened...I don't know man. I'm the type who needs to see it to believe it, and also test it a bit to see that it's not just a trick. Even if it is Jesus himself...I can't just believe it.

 

They say siddhis and enlightenment are like two opposite endeavors. If you try to cultivate powers, you're going the opposite direction of attaining enlightenment. I tend to agree, kind of. The motivation for powers comes from the very thing which enlightenment aims to eliminate: the illusion that there's a self which controls everything. But once enlightened do powers come to you naturally? Perhaps, although I've had no experience with that.

 

Anyway, my main point about miracles is that some people are really gullible, some people make things up, some people are nuts. Maybe miracles and powers aren't real at all.

I agree that the mind can open up as a result of good energy work. Or to think of it in a different way, which I experienced myself, energy can suddenly flow drastically as a result of a real enlightenment experience. Or maybe not as a result but the two go hand in hand for sure.

 

But I couldn't literally do anything. Is there an enlightenment which enables you to do this?

 

Perhaps in fantasy land. If anyone disagrees, then show me what you can do.

 

There's no doubt that you can argue different levels of enlightenment just by opinion alone. I however, dont believe any enlightenment except utltimate enlightenment which I keep using Jesus and Buddha for examples of. Nothing wrong with not believing in certain things unitl you experience them, other than limiting yourself. Also, if you are wanting to gain enlightenment than you are still wanting, which plays into ego. I personally have witnessed some amazing things but I can very well pull my experience out of my head and drop into yours can I. I dont believe in enlightenment and then powers. I believe in powers and then enlightenment. Meditation isnt all about enlightenment anyway. A meditational system can give you power regardless of belief if the system is designed that way. You dont have to want to gain powers to gain powers either, as I said, some systems are designed to do certain things whether you think so or not. Do you do anytype of meditation?

[h.uriahr]

I didn't know Jesus used to meditate.

There's no proof that he didnt. Personally, I believe that everytime the bible mentions Jesus going off to pray on his own he was in deep meditation to chat with God.

[Jakara]

Interesting answers. It does seem that you get both types, the highly powered martial type and the skinny and frail but mentally enlightened type.

 

Can both paths lead to enlightenment?

 

I mean does the high power of the high-powered guy give any advantage in becoming enlightened? Likewise does the skinny frail guy need to build or manipulate internal energy?

 

I had read that all the prophets in judaism/christianity/islam had gone to meditate at some point, usually 40 days and nights in a cave. The more recent christian saints like st francis etc certainly did. It seems meditation is a universal tool for becoming something special, regardless of religion.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited August 27, 2009 by mjjbecker

[h.uriahr]

Ah, ye ole free will debate eh?

[h.uriahr]

Ah, ye ole free will debate eh?

And I thought my balls were huge lol

[Gerard]

Interesting answers. It does seem that you get both types, the highly powered martial type and the skinny and frail but mentally enlightened type.

 

Can both paths lead to enlightenment?

 

I mean does the high power of the high-powered guy give any advantage in becoming enlightened? Likewise does the skinny frail guy need to build or manipulate internal energy?

 

I had read that all the prophets in judaism/christianity/islam had gone to meditate at some point, usually 40 days and nights in a cave. The more recent christian saints like st francis etc certainly did. It seems meditation is a universal tool for becoming something special, regardless of religion.

 

 

 

Read my signature. Meditation is a must. But IMA will help most of us creatures living in the urban environment with developed blockages as a result. To attain a Buddha state requires an enormous amount of energy directed to the mind plus removal of all blockages at all levels. Not an easy task. Energy work alone won't help you achieve Nirvana.