Is a Guru/Master/etc needed?

[h.uriahr]

This not only applies to meditation but to any other topic aswell. Having a teacher is very beneficial. On the other hand there's nothing wrong with studying on your own either. I am in favor of having a teacher, atleast having some of the basics pointed out and shown. As I said earlier, it depends on how you want to end up or what exactly it is youre looking for. A prime example is becoming a surgeon. I'm very confident that you can read up and practice cutting and what not but you cant really get all that far without going to school, college and med school.

[bindo]

This isn't true. Many people don't have easy access to a teacher and yet still pine for one and regard their practice as preparatory or otherwise not as a full-fledged authentic practice.

 

Very few people have what it takes to stand on their own two. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be encouraged though.

The assumption here is that making a mistake or taking a detour is a waste of time. There is also an undercurrent of laziness. People don't want to do hard work. Instead people just want someone with a nice beard and a top knot, or someone with a bald head and an orange robe to please just tell them "how it is".

 

The problem with teachers is that they almost always exist within some rather inflexible tradition. They have some very definite ideas about what is good and what is not. They want to see certain things in their students and they have various beliefs about their own internal state. All of this gets in the way of wisdom.

 

What I suggest is that people find spiritual friends with teacher-like qualities, but don't think of them as teachers and definitely not Gurus, because a concept of a Guru has a slavishly devotional component to it, and there is definitely a suspension of one's own inner authority and one's own inner honesty in favor of Guru's word in the traditional Guru-disciple relationship. This is ultimately a very harmful thing to the spirit, because it breeds unhealthy dependencies of all kinds and hurts the "Guru" as much as it hurts the student (or more).

 

People don't want to be alone and they want support. And they also want to have some father figure come in and say "What you are doing is OK. You are a good boy/girl. You are on the right track." If you are one of those people, it's OK that you want that, but don't give in. Just continue to reflect. A spiritual friend is something that can soften this otherwise hard situation.

 

Hey, Gurus need some love too. They need friends who can tell them to stop taking all that Guru-persona business very seriously. Do these Gurus really think there are students that need to be enlightened? They don't think it's a play of the empty groundless senses? If not, they need to hang up their robe, and if yes, why are they lying to their students? If you see a Guru, just give him or her a hug. Toss them some money or a scarf, or whatever they want, and keep moving.

 

[dragonfire]

From my learning or teachings, a teacher or master will reveal himself to you when

you are ready. If you search long enough, you will find him or he will find you.

 

There are many masters (Bodhisattva) that will even re-incarnate in the human form to

go through the same suffering each time to save humans. Bodhisattva's are regarded

as even higher than buddha.

 

In the meantime, study on your own, learn, and practice. Seek guidance everywhere.

This forum is full of helpful people. Some very accomplished, others still learning, but

still full of knowledge.

 

Its possible to go alone, but full of obstacles in my mind. With the help of others,

one can avoid some of the pitfalls. The Tao is not for everyone. Some people's

body and mind are not ready. It is dangerous. Even with guidance,

it can be dangerous in my mind.

[farmerjoe]

You are asking us here. That likely means you still did not disempower the convention within your mind. That means no matter what anyone says, you have an external Guru already, since you really believe the world is external and Gurus are there to teach you things you didn't know.

 

I say "likely" because you might just be fooling around and not being serious.

 

Let me rephrase the question: is a person needed whom you will never question and whom you will never look at critically? Is such one needed? Not only is such one not needed, but such one can derail the spiritual progress you've made prior to meeting one.

 

Wisdom is the ultimate resolution of all concepts and therefore of all intentions. Intentions and concepts which ground those intentions cannot be resolved if you follow a formulaic step-by-step path. The resolution is a manner of familiarization that is acquired during a curious and constant interaction with the deepest levels of meanings. This interaction has to be done in utmost honesty with the highest aspirations, or it will not have the power to move you beyond the ordinary. The Guru blocks all that. You cannot be honest with the Guru, because the Guru demands respect. But what if you feel like disrespecting your Guru? Already there is a block on certain feelings there through convention. It's not that disrespecting the Guru is important, but the fact that your respect is not spontaneous, but it is there as a duty and a debt, you appear constrained, disempowered and worthless.

 

"Even a fool has his own mind for a teacher." --chuang tzu

 

This is a long term affair. If you want to speed things up, you have the wrong motivation. The motivation should be on honesty, truth, quality and never on how fast you get something done. Ordinary mind panics when hurt and wants the pain over fast. That's where the "fast" motivation comes from. But a mind that is beyond ordinary is not paniced by any sensation at all. Enlightenment is anti-fast by its very nature. Seeking a short-cut one becomes very far from it, and not seeking any short cut you become very near. Chasing fast results on a path where forbearance is a virtue is very deluded.

 

Another reason people seek Gurus is because they are afraid to make a mistake. If you fear mistakes, you are screwed before you even start. Embrace mistakes. Love your mistakes. Make many mistakes. Explore! How else are you to learn? Mistakes are where the wisdom is. If Guru cuts off mistakes, Guru cuts off wisdom as well. If you are not seeking to avoid mistake and if you are not seeking a shortcut, what you need is a spiritual friend, perhaps, and not Guru.

 

Thanks for this. Joe.

[deci belle]

Edited February 22, 2009 by deci belle

[ThisLife]

[deci belle]

[doc benway]

I find it a bit telling that people who speak of there being no need for a guru, generally realize that after years of studying with one or more themselves.

 

It seems to me that first there is this lack of satisfaction with the status quo followed by a resolution to do something about it. For the beginner trying to get a handle on where to go from there, it is very difficult and very unlikely that they will find a way forward (or back or sideways) without seeking some sort of direction from a "spiritual authority." The "authority" will help them get established on a path but eventually they'll need to discard their dependence on the authority and find their way for themselves.

 

I personally believe that the really meaningful achievements are made without a teacher but through personal investigation. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that most of us could get to the point where we can make real independent progress without some preliminary guidance.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well for someone in my situation, I've explored all the teachers around my area that I have access to..... frilly New Age neo hippies that talk about surfing the waves of the cosmos while listening to groovy music. Not that that's bad, I mean whatever floats your boat.... but I'm looking for someone who's serious about it.

 

I find I get much more information coming to forums, reading books on my own, practicing, discussing, yadda yadda, then I do forking over my cash to teachers that are like,

 

teacher: "I let my intuition guide my instruction.... do you like peanut butter and jelly? Peanut butter and jelly just popped into my head, I get the feeling the universe is trying to reveal something to me, so I can reveal it to you. Do you like peanut butter and jelly?"

 

me: "uh.... I'm allergic to peanut butter...."

 

teacher: "oh, well then the universe is warning you to stay away from peanuts! Beware PB&J!!"

 

me: "so how much am I paying you?"

 

teacher: "$100 a month for four lessons and $150 for an hour and a half personal session."

 

me: "riiiiiiiight."

 

Disclaimer: true story.

 

Furthermore, I get the feeling that a lot of people mistake "studying from a book" for "studying from ONE book". That's rarely ever the case. If I find a method or a teacher who wrote a book, I do major internet searches. I research the teacher, teacher's teacher, read all about the lineage, the history, philosophy of the school, travel internet boards, find other students, talk to them, ask questions, continue practicing on my own, constantly read and re-read articles, I have bookmarked hundreds of articles for both martial arts and cultivation, saved even more on my hard drive.... A little detail here, a little detail there, piece it all together. Maybe one teacher stresses one thing, another student found some other method helped, a different variation on technique.

 

It's never ever just pick up one book, read it once and focus on the chapters I think are cool, awkwardly practice it in front of the mirror, and then think I'm enlightened.

 

I'm sure there are people who do it like that, and I'm sure there are people who think they are all great and that... but that's not how I do it. If you put in the right effort, when all available teachers fail, that's just how you have to do it.

[Martial Development]

Needed? Perhaps you should ask instead, "Am I better off with a teacher, or without one?"

And what do you suppose is the answer to that question?

 

 

From Idries Shah's latest book:

"People ransack books for Sufi exercises and psychological or spiritual techniques and they set about trying to employ these things. Well, of course, it does surprise us because if I were to find a textbook on surgery, I wouldn't try to take out my own appendix."

Edited February 23, 2009 by Martial Development

[goldisheavy]

"People ransack books for Sufi exercises and psychological or spiritual techniques and they set about trying to employ these things. Well, of course, it does surprise us because if I were to find a textbook on surgery, I wouldn't try to take out my own appendix."

 

You are so clever, ain't ya? Ha, ha, ha...

 

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=12...92&set_id=1

[eighty4proof]

You can either take the trail that's well-worn or you can blaze your own. Taking the one that's well-worn will probably be easier and faster with fewer obstacles, and you know where it leads. Blazing your own you'll encounter more obstacles, which IMHO, makes the process more meaningful. It gives reason to why things are done rather than just because "that's just the way it works". And maybe the trail you blaze will cross one that's worn. Just like anything else in this world, there are tradeoffs to either approach. And so I'll leave you with the words of Robert Frost... http://www.bartleby.com/119/1.html

[Martial Development]

You are so clever, ain't ya? Ha, ha, ha...

 

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=12...92&set_id=1

 

The most important sentence of this article was the last.

"Ramirez does not recommend her desperate, painful action to other women."

 

But if you are special, then by all means give it a try...

[Wayfarer64]

IT DEPENDS... Seems to pop up quite a lot in this thread... And that may be the most pertenant point. -It Depends on many different elements -

where yr at in yr search

who who have access to

what yr capasities are

where you wish to go with yr searchings...

etc etc...

 

There are just so many questions that arise that depend on conditional realities that it is not a certainty that any answer will fit -- (and that many thats are that!)

 

Meditation is a given to my way of thinking- a basic start that will lead you where you need to go... Start there and let yrself progress as you are willing and able...It is hard work to delve deep into ones' inner self and dismantle the inner walls and create paths to calm and power and the other tools we find within ourselves...

 

Teachers may help any one of us...or just waste time - but if you are drawn to a guru or martial arts sifu then it may be the right thing as circumstances opened up for that experience...But it may also be a sort of cosmic way-lay to give pause and warning of what/where NOT to go- and there again it is up to us to meditate through our options...

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I can see where this is heading with everyone. To ignore the other side is not good either

 

You are so clever, ain't ya? Ha, ha, ha...

 

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=12...92&set_id=1

In the article presented it also verifies that non-urban groups are more resiliant than urban groups. This is due to a number of factors, including contaminants, and the 60hz powerline i make reference to at the below link.

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=104244

It is quite possible she may have 'gifts' also however, but can we say the same of ourselves? Are we living out in the sticks?

 

Unfortunately you can attempt chikung, and training without a master like I did. But once you meat a real master/teacher it allows you to progress more than you could before. That was my experience. I did have some minor things I learned myself, however looking back on it I realize how rediculous it was to self-train.

 

I give an example here in this post, and it is important, otherwise you can do something you might regret:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=104651

 

Generally, some teachers do have strict views, but Bruce Lee held the same ideas that you had to follow a path in order to realize "nothingness" or "void" which was the foundation of his martial art he created. Later he realized his error in trying to teach that from the start. Stigweard barely touches on this concept in the below post when comparing ancient and modern teachers.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...&hl=teacher

 

The fact remains that no one can introduce you to path(s) (I say plural because there are many correct paths) like a teacher/master can. Without it, where do you know where others have been and misteaks they have easily made?

 

Then there were some energy problems that had to be corrected by visiting a five-element acupuncturist...

So is it really worth it? NO.

If you want to do damage to your body and only progress a little, be my guest. There are no well known masters who were not trained. You can be gifted, but if you dont have someone to guide you, you cannot progress.

 

Yeah there are teachers who dont have certification to be avoided, bad teachers and such, but for those starting they need it ( a real teacher that is). I mean really the things someone found by themselves later after investigation happened based upon things they originally learned.

 

At that, how do you learn the daoist bubble of white light meditation? If you havnt learned how to do this properly or had somone to inspect it for constistency throughout, how do you expect to progress? And if you havnt learned it or been initiated into the base teachings, what can you say? You will still feel like you are missing something like I did when someone mentioned this years ago. I had never heard of it.

Edited February 23, 2009 by TheWhiteRabbit

[goldisheavy]

The most important sentence of this article was the last.

"Ramirez does not recommend her desperate, painful action to other women."

 

I disagree.

 

But if you are special, then by all means give it a try...

 

It all depends on your mind, doesn't it? Maybe I am special. Or maybe I see that the situation is similar to being caught in a fire. You do what's necessary to get out. If the house is burning, you don't go around looking for qualified firemen. You get out ASAP, firemen or no, unless you are trapped by fire, in which case you can't do anything anyway. But if you are not completely trapped by the fire, it is the height of folly to sit around waiting for a fire engine while the fire is quickly encircling you and the gas fills the room.

 

I show something that I believe is an empowering story, but you've managed to find a single disempowering sentence there and to latch onto it. Congratulations.

 

It's not like teachers have never screwed their students in the past. Teachers provide a 100% guaranteed success. (not)

Edited February 24, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Martial Development]

It all depends on your mind, doesn't it? Maybe I am special. Or maybe I see that the situation is similar to being caught in a fire. You do what's necessary to get out. If the house is burning, you don't go around looking for qualified firemen. You get out ASAP, firemen or no, unless you are trapped by fire, in which case you can't do anything anyway. But if you are not completely trapped by the fire, it is the height of folly to sit around waiting for a fire engine while the fire is quickly encircling you and the gas fills the room.

 

I show something that I believe is an empowering story, but you've managed to find a single disempowering sentence there and to latch onto it. Congratulations.

 

A poor woman living deep in the mountains needs emergency surgery or her baby may die. And we should compare her to some rich (by her standards) dilettante, who can't be bothered with a few extra keystrokes to locate a proper teacher? What a joke.

 

If you can't teach yourself, is your baby going to die? Is your house going to burn down?

 

No. The self-taught man has a fool for a master.

[Unconditioned]

A poor woman living deep in the mountains needs emergency surgery or her baby may die. And we should compare her to some rich (by her standards) dilettante, who can't be bothered with a few extra keystrokes to locate a proper teacher? What a joke.

 

If you can't teach yourself, is your baby going to die? Is your house going to burn down?

 

No. The self-taught man has a fool for a master.

 

What is backing your opinion for depending on a teacher? I hear "don't be lazy" implied, which is absolutely a valid point if that's the only reason for not choosing to learn from a teacher.

 

Some people seem to learn pretty well on their own in the material world. When I was in college I hardly went to class and just learned from the book. I've taught myself most of what I use in my professional life SQL, PHP, C++, PMP certified, blah blah) and my personal life (self-taught guitarist playing in a band with regular gigs, learning Italian right now, etc.). That's not a pat on the back, it's my personal learning preference in the material world and it's worked so far for those things. I'm sure there are other people that have learned on their own within this forum too.

 

I'm interested in understanding a bit more about why you chose a teacher though.

 

Is it because they have experience in their art that you can pick up easier in person?

Is it because you trust them based on that experience?

Is it because your learning preference is more kinesthetic?

Is it because you find it helpful to have someone keep you 'in check' to make sure you're doing the right things? Is it to have someone else show you things about yourself and your practice that you wouldn't otherwise see? etc. etc.

 

Edit: I should also add that there are many types of practices with many goals in mind. Personally, my goal is to experience Truth, Reality, Tao, whatever you want to call it. My focus isn't on achieving immortality, special abilities, self-defense, etc. right now although all of which I can see many reasons to pursue.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Unconditioned

[ThisLife]

A poor woman living deep in the mountains needs emergency surgery or her baby may die. And we should compare her to some rich (by her standards) dilettante, who can't be bothered with a few extra keystrokes to locate a proper teacher? What a joke.

 

If you can't teach yourself, is your baby going to die? Is your house going to burn down?

 

No. The self-taught man has a fool for a master.

 

I agree with the point you were aking in your first two paragraphs. The story of a woman giving herself a Caesarian, (though interesting in itself),.... is stretching our credibility to suggest that the experience has close parallels to spiritual seeking in our current society.

 

However, I find that your own final statement similarly bears very little resemblance to spiritual truth as I see it. It praises one extreme and spurns its opposite as false and deluded.

 

To me, that process is like looking at the Yin-Yang symbol and extolling the perfection of the black parts. How much better and more relevant it would be without the white parts !!

 

I'm sure you see what I mean. I believe Buddha is quoted as saying something like, "The truth always lies in the Middle Way". From my own personal experience, I followed a Buddhist path with a certified Tibetan master for almost twenty years. The things I saw going on in that organisation amongst many of the supposedly 'most advanced' practitioners,... really almost beggars belief.

 

Believe me, there are NO GUARANTEES with a master, just as there are equally none trying on your own. I think that the best advice on following the spiritual path that I've ever seen is posted here by Sloppy Zhang on a neighbouring thread :

 

 

"To be honest.... I don't really know

 

I started out with pretty selfish and lame reasons, but those have mostly fallen away....

 

But I keep walking "

 

 

Perhaps, if we, ourselves, gradually let go of extremes and just keep on walking, this whole mystery of our existence will simply dissipate like a dream does to a relaxed and contented mind.

 

 

ThisLife

 

 

.

Edited February 24, 2009 by ThisLife

[Martial Development]

What is backing your opinion for depending on a teacher? I hear "don't be lazy" implied, which is absolutely a valid point if that's the only reason for not choosing to learn from a teacher.

 

Some people seem to learn pretty well on their own in the material world. When I was in college I hardly went to class and just learned from the book. I've taught myself most of what I use in my professional life SQL, PHP, C++, PMP certified, blah blah) and my personal life (self-taught guitarist playing in a band with regular gigs, learning Italian right now, etc.). That's not a pat on the back, it's my personal learning preference in the material world and it's worked so far for those things. I'm sure there are other people that have learned on their own within this forum too.

 

I'm interested in understanding a bit more about why you chose a teacher though.

 

Is it because they have experience in their art that you can pick up easier in person?

Is it because you trust them based on that experience?

Is it because your learning preference is more kinesthetic?

Is it because you find it helpful to have someone keep you 'in check' to make sure you're doing the right things? Is it to have someone else show you things about yourself and your practice that you wouldn't otherwise see? etc. etc.

 

Edit: I should also add that there are many types of practices with many goals in mind. Personally, my goal is to experience Truth, Reality, Tao, whatever you want to call it. My focus isn't on achieving immortality, special abilities, self-defense, etc. right now although all of which I can see many reasons to pursue.

 

Unconditioned, if I have learned anything about martial arts, it is that martial arts are not special. They present an excellent venue for learning how to learn; and unlike in some spiritual schools, there is always a helping hand nearby to shatter your delusions and fantasies.

 

Sure, you can teach yourself SQL, PHP, etc from a book. These subjects are child's play, in comparison to spiritual science. The details of the latter endeavor cannot be found in a book, and will never be found in a book, because the base language is an unwritten one.

 

Now that fact in itself would not, and does not prevent a certain gross level of self-education. But there are limits to self-education. Isn't this obvious? I am using "self" in the conventional sense.

 

One who would use "self" in the transcendental sense cannot deny the value of teachers. That would literally be nonsense.

[Martial Development]

I agree with the point you were aking in your first two paragraphs. The story of a woman giving herself a Caesarian, (though interesting in itself),.... is stretching our credibility to suggest that the experience has close parallels to spiritual seeking in our current society.

 

However, I find that your own final statement similarly bears very little resemblance to spiritual truth as I see it. It praises one extreme and spurns its opposite as false and deluded.

 

That statement is one of my favorite quotes, so I cannot take all the credit. It refers to a person who explicitly rejects the skills and experience of the...more skillful and experienced.

 

One of the bizarre quirks of the spiritual community, is that so many of its members deny the existence of skill and experience. If that were so, there would be nothing to learn, nothing to unlearn, and nothing to talk about.

 

To me, that process is like looking at the Yin-Yang symbol and extolling the perfection of the black parts. How much better and more relevant it would be without the white parts !!

 

I'm sure you see what I mean. I believe Buddha is quoted as saying something like, "The truth always lies in the Middle Way".

 

I do see what you mean, and I have a very different understanding of the Middle Way. I hope to share it in detail some day, but not today.

 

What lies midway between yin and yang?

Nothing! There is nothing there!

 

Believe me, there are NO GUARANTEES with a master, just as there are equally none trying on your own.

 

Someone, somewhere, knows something that you do not. This is the closest thing to a guarantee that anyone will encounter in their lifetime. As Confucius said, let that person be your teacher.

[farmerjoe]

Someone, somewhere, knows something that you do not. This is the closest thing to a guarantee that anyone will encounter in their lifetime. As Confucius said, let that person be your teacher.

There are teachers that can teach me something useful everywhere, so learning how to balance "within" and "without" has become the most important thing for me. I learned the hard way though that when there is a showdown that I should always let "inside" win. Joe.

[adam mizner]

hi

 

in short i would say yes almost every being needs a teacher. ignorance cannot show the way out of ignorance. there is a point when one no longer needs a physical teacher but even after that point the teacher can be a blessing to bring you down to earth or give you a kick up the but.

 

metta

adam

 

I am curious as to what other people's opinions are on finding a Guru/Master/Teacher for your spiritual practice. I have not had one to date and have used books, youTube, forums (like this one), etc. to learn practices which I then do and learn directly from those experiences.

 

I've also done some 'experimental' meditation - for example during meditation if i do something such as move my eyes upwards I feel a strong sense of energy. I later found out that this is a type of yoga meditation for the ajna chakra. This has happened on a half a dozen occasions where I did something that resonated only to find out that it is a formal meditation practice.

 

So, is listening to the 'inner guru' (intuition) an effective technique or am I just reinventing the wheel through experimentation from time to time within my daily practice?

[Sunya]

i have an idea

 

how about one of us gets enlightened, and then says whether a teacher is needed or not

this just seems like speculative masturbation

 

what do you guys think?

[Ya Mu]

Just some of the things I resonate with in this thread, randomly selected:

 

Sure, you can teach yourself SQL, PHP, etc from a book. These subjects are child's play, in comparison to spiritual science. The details of the latter endeavor cannot be found in a book, and will never be found in a book, because the base language is an unwritten one.

Unfortunately you can attempt chikung, and training without a master like I did. But once you meat a real master/teacher it allows you to progress more than you could before. That was my experience. I did have some minor things I learned myself, however looking back on it I realize how rediculous it was to self-train.

 

I give an example here in this post, and it is important, otherwise you can do something you might regret:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=104651

 

Generally, some teachers do have strict views, but Bruce Lee held the same ideas that you had to follow a path in order to realize "nothingness" or "void" which was the foundation of his martial art he created. Later he realized his error in trying to teach that from the start. Stigweard barely touches on this concept in the below post when comparing ancient and modern teachers.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...&hl=teacher

 

The fact remains that no one can introduce you to path(s) (I say plural because there are many correct paths) like a teacher/master can. Without it, where do you know where others have been and misteaks they have easily made?

 

Then there were some energy problems that had to be corrected by visiting a five-element acupuncturist...

So is it really worth it? NO.

If you want to do damage to your body and only progress a little, be my guest. There are no well known masters who were not trained. You can be gifted, but if you dont have someone to guide you, you cannot progress.

 

Yeah there are teachers who dont have certification to be avoided, bad teachers and such, but for those starting they need it ( a real teacher that is). I mean really the things someone found by themselves later after investigation happened based upon things they originally learned.

 

At that, how do you learn the daoist bubble of white light meditation? If you havnt learned how to do this properly or had somone to inspect it for constistency throughout, how do you expect to progress? And if you havnt learned it or been initiated into the base teachings, what can you say? You will still feel like you are missing something like I did when someone mentioned this years ago. I had never heard of it.

 

in short i would say yes almost every being needs a teacher. ignorance cannot show the way out of ignorance. there is a point when one no longer needs a physical teacher but even after that point the teacher can be a blessing to bring you down to earth or give you a kick up the but.

 

I think it is pertinent to remind ourselves that certain qualified individuals are living vessels of great wisdom.

This is across the board, not just in terms of spiritual matters.

 

Should we not acknowledge master crafts people for their ability,dedication and the insight they have?

Such individuals should be treasured for the repository of hard earned exprience often gleaned over many centuries.

 

From my learning or teachings, a teacher or master will reveal himself to you when

you are ready. If you search long enough, you will find him or he will find you.

 

Why do I resonate with these posts? Because I spent the first through later mid 70's trying on my own through books to learn and practice meditation and qigong. Made some good progress but when I found my first teacher (or he found me) it was the difference between darkness and Light.