Is a Guru/Master/etc needed?

[DaoChild]

No, a teacher is most certainly NOT needed. I have had some of the most transcendent and incredibly experiences of my life and have never had a teacher.

 

I would LIKE one, and having a teacher makes a lot of things easier. They can dispel fears ,they can confirm experiences, the can always pay attention to your faults and those areas of your life where you are unaware. It's important if you ask me - and if you can, get one. But It's most certainly not necessary.

 

If you want a teacher, go into the forest and ask for help.

 

But I'm also not talking about Taiji or any of that - I'm talking about experiencing Dao. If you are actually trying to learn exercises, (aside from basic ones you can find in books / on the internet), that is a very good reason to find a teacher.

 

Neijia (the internal arts, including Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi ) and martial arts in general, cannot be learned by yourself. That is very different. Anything that requires form and structure you will mess up trying to teach youreslf. People ask all the time if you can teach yourself martial arts - you cannot, effectively. You will be missing footwork information, posture, focus, awareness. The teacher can point out all these things in person, but they cannot if you are just watching a video.

Edited February 25, 2009 by DaoChild

[Unconditioned]

No, a teacher is most certainly NOT needed. I have had some of the most transcendent and incredibly experiences of my life and have never had a teacher.

 

I would LIKE one, and having a teacher makes a lot of things easier. They can dispel fears ,they can confirm experiences, the can always pay attention to your faults and those areas of your life where you are unaware. It's important if you ask me - and if you can, get one. But It's most certainly not necessary.

 

If you want a teacher, go into the forest and ask for help.

 

But I'm also not talking about Taiji or any of that - I'm talking about experiencing Dao. If you are actually trying to learn exercises, (aside from basic ones you can find in books / on the internet), that is a very good reason to find a teacher.

 

Neijia (the internal arts, including Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi ) and martial arts in general, cannot be learned by yourself. That is very different. Anything that requires form and structure you will mess up trying to teach youreslf. People ask all the time if you can teach yourself martial arts - you cannot, effectively. You will be missing footwork information, posture, focus, awareness. The teacher can point out all these things in person, but they cannot if you are just watching a video.

 

I completely agree, but then again my opinion is very one-sided as I've only had a handful of teachers in my life (coaches, school teachers, etc.). I do agree that comparing experiencing the Tao with learning a programming language really can't compare, excellent point from Martial.

 

I think for me, it's the fear of finding a teacher that leads me astray that keeps me from seeking a personal teacher. At the same time I think there is a lot to be said about personal meditation practice and even then I really hate that word because it implies so many things that I don't consider mediation.

 

All that said, I can't help but come back to the few individuals that have figured these things out on their own such as Ramana Maharishi and J.Krishnamurti.

 

Maybe it's just a fantasy that the average person can figure it out by seeing what our conditioning is and what the True nameless Self is, never adding or taking away, but just being a part of what is. Either way, definitely some things to consider regarding finding a teacher, thanks everyone.

[Ya Mu]

...

I think for me, it's the fear of finding a teacher that leads me astray that keeps me from seeking a personal teacher. ...

 

 

For me it was giving up the fear and concern. Once I did that then the teacher found me, almost like a slap in the face the attraction was so strong. That is why I keep saying about what I teach, if you don't resonate with this then these teachings are not for you...

[DaoChild]

For me it was giving up the fear and concern. Once I did that then the teacher found me, almost like a slap in the face the attraction was so strong. That is why I keep saying about what I teach, if you don't resonate with this then these teachings are not for you...

 

I absolutely agree with your comment on resonating with what you are practicing or learning.

[ThisLife]

I have an idea

 

How about one of us gets enlightened, and then says whether a teacher is needed or not ?

This just seems like speculative masturbation

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

In theory what you suggest sounds the only practical solution to a perennial problem. However, what I think you've overlooked is one of the oldest unspoken spiritual truths there is :

 

"Those who know, don't talk,... and those who talk, don't know"

 

So, if any of us are lucky enough to hit the spiritual jackpot, they'll probably just clam up, close off their membership to Tao Bums, and the rest of us will still be stuck here in the land of speculative masturbation, (as you so graphically describe it).

 

I'm afraid this is part of the price we pay for being born a human being. We can only help each other out this side of the veil.

 

 

ThisLife

 

 

.

[CarsonZi]

In my opinion Real Knowledge comes from within not from without. You can be taught something by a teacher, but until you realize what he/she is saying is right through personal experience, you only understand something not know it. So to say that a teacher is necessary is a bit of a catch 22. Guidance may be necessary in finding teachings that resonate with you, but attaching yourself to the one who "guides" you is just another form of attachment necessary to be broken. I think it is possible to achieve spiritual liberation without a formal teacher as I believe that anything and everyone can be a teacher if the state of mind is one of receptive curiousity and silent inner discernment.

 

Love,

Carson

[Wayfarer64]

What you do not know can not help you.

 

Learn with every available vehicle as it is offered to you...

[CarsonZi]

What you do not know can not help you.

Being "taught" does not equal "knowing". But you CAN "know" without being "taught".

 

Edited February 25, 2009 by CarsonZi

[Wayfarer64]

Being "taught" does not equal "knowing". But you CAN "know" without being "taught".

 

 

Faulkner had a good line about that -something like -"Knowing remembers before memory allows -or somesuch...As in - Actual knowing is a natural inclusive part of what you have become perhaps...

 

I guess learning -both self taught and teacher-taught comes thru many avenues... Touching hot stoves, petting stray dogs, the basics can be learned both ways... but getting bitten twice by the same dog means it didn't take the 1st time thru!

 

Or perhaps that dog just doesn't like you!

 

In any case a teacher can be a great boon to learning, and a few things can only be learned through the few folks who have the answers...Esoteric knowledge is often that way... But there are probably enough stray dogs around to learn from in general...

[Sloppy Zhang]

Learn with every available vehicle as it is offered to you...

 

I think the key phrase here is "as it is offered to you"

 

I learn on my own. I'm not saying a teacher is unnecessary, I'm saying that one can get by on one's own. If you have access to a legitimate teacher, by all means go for it! But if you're like me and have teachers like the one I described (bottom of page 3?) then you really have to go it alone (and with the help of forums like this as well )

 

I do not think it wise at all to spurn a teacher that is easily available.

 

Faulkner had a good line about that -something like -"Knowing remembers before memory allows -or somesuch...As in - Actual knowing is a natural inclusive part of what you have become perhaps...

 

+1 to Faulkner.

[adam mizner]

it is the deluded self, the ego that is resonating with like and dislike, not to be trusted. the truth is often counter intuitive. most of the time it is the teachings we recoil from that we need most, just another reason for a teacher.

 

the Buddha "admirable friends(teachers) are the whole of the holy life"

 

the path to freedom goes against the grain.

metta

adam

 

I absolutely agree with your comment on resonating with what you are practicing or learning.

[goldisheavy]

most of the time it is the teachings we recoil from that we need most, just another reason for a teacher.

 

I suggest you abandon Buddhism and instead take up having gay sex, but not before becoming a Muslim. Surely that's the path for you. Do it!

[Trunk]

[Bruce]

For practices like qigong or other energy moving practices, I think one is advised to stay close to a teacher. I've done a bit, but heeded the warnings about preceeding too far without expert advice.

 

For spiritual practice, I believe that old saying: when the student is ready the teacher will appear.

 

My best teachers have been normal, everyday people who had nothing to do with religion.

 

I do think having a formal teacher, at various points in life, is beneficial. I've had a few. Often my geographic location has made having a formal teacher on a regular basis impossible, at least without a lot of travel.

 

Once you get some experience in your practice, I think most know when they're "doing it right" and don't need a teacher there to tell them so. In vajrayana, you get an empowernment from your teacher then go off and practice it. You could spend 3 years doing some of those practices with very little need for direct contact with a teacher. It might be hard to do koan practice without a teacher. I've never done koan practice myself. My practice of Shikantaza is just a practice of sitting every day. Once you get what it is, you just do it, and once you've discussed some "experiences" with your teacher and they've told you in no uncertain terms that they're just experience, and "just keep sitting", you stop getting all excited about it and just sit.

 

So for now I'm teacherless, and content with it. There will probably come a time again when I really feel the need for one, or maybe one will just appear.

 

What I have been missing is being around other like minded people to talk about this kind of thing, and the other things we talk about here. I actually like this a bit better though. In a sangha, or group with a specific teacher, others often just reiterate what the teacher says. You don't get any differing views. I like having differing and sometimes divergent views. I tried some Buddhist forums, but never really enjoyed them. I like it here.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Bruce

[Sunya]

In theory what you suggest sounds the only practical solution to a perennial problem. However, what I think you've overlooked is one of the oldest unspoken spiritual truths there is :

 

"Those who know, don't talk,... and those who talk, don't know"

 

So, if any of us are lucky enough to hit the spiritual jackpot, they'll probably just clam up, close off their membership to Tao Bums, and the rest of us will still be stuck here in the land of speculative masturbation, (as you so graphically describe it).

 

I'm afraid this is part of the price we pay for being born a human being. We can only help each other out this side of the veil.

ThisLife

.

 

 

ThisLife

 

thanks for your thought

 

i must ask, are we truly helping each other out on this side of the veil by speculating over this? does wondering about these questions actually aid somehow? or does it bring us further from our goal?

[taocultivator]

I read/studied Taoism for 15years and felt that I was missing something important. I wandered into a Master in the last year who is now my Teacher. What I now know is that the Teacher will appear in their time. I have progressed since then. There were so many things that I was unaware of.

 

"If you are sincere in seeking this knowledge, you must look for a teacher and humbly ask your teacher to show you the opening of the Mysterious Gate. From then on, if your actions follow the Tao, you will progress.

Eva Wong, Cultivating Stillness

[ThisLife]

ThisLife

 

Thanks for your thought

 

I must ask, are we truly helping each other out on this side of the veil by speculating over this? Does wondering about these questions actually aid somehow? Or does it bring us further from our goal?

 

Dear Mikaelz,

 

I appreciate your connection in this discussion, as I think it points perfectly to what I feel is the answer to the question you raised. Yes, I very definitely feel that we are helping each other with all this speculating over spiritual questions,... BUT, probably not in the way we think. I venture to say that I'm sure, in our heart -of-hearts, that we all wish the discussions we have here and whatever practice we do had a direct and causal connection to Enlightenment, (or whatever term we wish to call our spiritual goal). In the way one's high school studies may well lead to a university degree.

 

Personally, I find myself questioning whether there is any connection at all. And, that is NOT to say that those who practice with sincerity and diligence, don't attain their goal. My feeling is that we are all simply expressions of Tao, or expressions of Consciousness,.... and that it is Consciousness that makes EVERYTHING happen. Sequential and causative practice, method, no-method,..... these are all concepts we humans who are still trapped in our dualistic minds develop , (and afterwards believe in), in our attempts to explain the unexplainable. Because the Tao is beyond comprehension by a dualistic mind,.... and it most certainly is not limited by any of the list of 'spiritual concepts' I have just listed, nor by any of the other myriad concepts and ideas we discuss on this forum.

 

We were all born with, and carry on with, a dualistic mind. It is not our fault. The Tao simply created us that way for whatever un-knowable reasons, (or non-reasons), it did.

 

So, on the level of simply dealing with "what is",... a phenomenon which frequently occurs is people who are driven by a thirst for answers to spiritual questions. I think that everyone who is drawn to spend their time here on this forum, has that thirst to some degree or other.

 

Another quality of a dualistic human being is the need for social interaction with like-minded people. That's a world-wide phenomena that manifests as supporters for football teams, sewing circles, Rotary Clubs, Bungee Jumpers Anonymous, Robin Reliant Owners Clubs, etc, etc. I think that this is where the value of this forum and this type of discussion lies.

 

And that is NOT to belittle the importance of this discussion in the slightest. To maintain a healthy human life we all need a supply of the clearly obvious necessities,"food, water, air, warmth and shelter",.... but there are also some invisible requisites which are equally vital for our healthy functioning. Among these, "social interaction and a feeling of connection with like-minded people", I feel is Number One.

 

People driven by this spiritual thirst are dotted about at random throughout world societies. Here in the West, with our tolerance, freedoms and wide acess to information, this seeking often takes many different forms such as an attraction to Taoism, Buddhism, etc. These are often not catered to socially in small communities or in sections of the country where neighbouring communities may be quite conservative in their beliefs. Many seekers actively dislike social organisations,.... yet still value the feeling of having connection to one or two people of a like mind.

 

Whatever the cause of our isolation, the wonderful advent of this computer age now allows people like ourselves to connect with others plagued by the same thirst,.... and simply the talking, the putting our ideas into words, (I know for myself), is of inestimable relief. At the risk of perhaps offending a few, I'd say that our discussions here, do perform the function of what you, quite aptly described as "speculative masturbation".

 

I know masturbation is one of those intensely private experiences which is usually best not talked about except in the realm of jokes. But it is, nevertheless, globally a very common and normal human activity. It does have the beneficial function of release from from internal desires, pressures, longings , which, if left unassuaged, would just otherwise turn to suffering or take some nastier outlet. Even when it simply relieves boredom I feel that this socially-tabooed activity is still equally valid. Phenomena occur for reasons. Masturbation, and Taoist forums on the internet are no different in that respect.

 

Whether either leads to Enlightenment. is beyond my knowing. But I do know that I am sitting here now, and I know without any doubt, that being able to meet and communicate with like minds on this forum has been a great relief, release, and reassurance for me. Where I am right now, I need this connection, and I am so very grateful to whoever started this forum for creating a place where we can all be part of this together,... and for everyone who contributes here,.... in whatever shape, form or disguise we all come in.

 

ThisLife

 

 

.

Edited February 28, 2009 by ThisLife

[contrivedname!]

No. The self-taught man has a fool for a master.

 

one of my favorite fools said this: "but in case we fail to enlighten ourselves, we have to seek the guidance of the pious and learned ones. On the other hand, those who enlighten themselves need no extraneous help. It is wrong to insist upon the idea that without the advice of the pious and learned we cannot obtain liberation. Why? Because it is by our innate wisdom that we enlighten ourselves, and even the extraneous help and instructions of a pious and learned friend would be of no use if we were deluded by false doctrines and erroneous views. Should we introspect our mind with real Prajna, all erroneous views would be vanquished in a moment, and as soon as we know the Essence of Mind we arrive immediately at the Buddha stage." (hui-neng sixth zen patriarch)

 

there is no Daoism without a teacher.

Daoism is a tradition orally transmitted from master to student.

 

Interesting it is that it seems most on here who say "you dont need a teacher" dont hesitate to look to the other side and add that it could be helpful or even necessary for some individuals, but on the other hand you both assert that there is no other side to the equation? so, there is just yin and no yang, or only yang and no yin? give me a break...

 

"People ransack books for Sufi exercises and psychological or spiritual techniques and they set about trying to employ these things. Well, of course, it does surprise us because if I were to find a textbook on surgery, I wouldn't try to take out my own appendix."

 

Sure, you can teach yourself SQL, PHP, etc from a book. These subjects are child's play, in comparison to spiritual science. The details of the latter endeavor cannot be found in a book, and will never be found in a book, because the base language is an unwritten one.

 

so the use of one somewhat arbitrary analogy to elucidate your experiential lens (or Idries Shah's) is okay, but someone using the same concept for an "opposing" point of view should be likened to child's play?

 

 

 

Re: "When the student is ready the master will appear", personally i dont think that this refers to some single master magically appearing when you are "ready", i think this implies that when you are "ready" you will realize that the real teacher/student is you, not two. or if you prefer, that every thing and situation you encounter you accept as a teacher, as something to learn from. like chokeham drunkpa , said "all situations become guru" (or something to that effect, i think, that quote is from memory), he also said that one needs a guru, quite interesting...

 

@goldisheavy i really enjoy your posts, it seems you put a lot of insight and thought into them, i think i may have just learned a thing or two from them (at least conceptually), but i dont think i am going to do prostrations at you

[Martial Development]

one of my favorite fools said this: "but in case we fail to enlighten ourselves, we have to seek the guidance of the pious and learned ones. On the other hand, those who enlighten themselves need no extraneous help. It is wrong to insist upon the idea that without the advice of the pious and learned we cannot obtain liberation. Why? Because it is by our innate wisdom that we enlighten ourselves, and even the extraneous help and instructions of a pious and learned friend would be of no use if we were deluded by false doctrines and erroneous views. Should we introspect our mind with real Prajna, all erroneous views would be vanquished in a moment, and as soon as we know the Essence of Mind we arrive immediately at the Buddha stage." (hui-neng sixth zen patriarch)

 

Hui-Neng? Where have I heard that name before? Oh yeah, he was the the head of a school dedicated to assisting its students.

 

And there was another guy named Hui-Peng, who decided to enlighten himself, by himself. Anyone heard of him? No? Hmm...

 

 

so the use of one somewhat arbitrary analogy to elucidate your experiential lens (or Idries Shah's) is okay, but someone using the same concept for an "opposing" point of view should be likened to child's play?

 

It is not the same concept, and as I have worked with C++, PHP and SQL myself, I am speaking from experience. Are you speaking from experience?

Edited March 2, 2009 by Martial Development

[Seth Ananda]

For Me for my first 16 years of practice, i practiced intensly any thing I could, read mountains and was completly dedicated to standing on my own without a teacher - Getting it from within as some put it.

 

I wouldnt trade this time in for anything.

 

But then I Found my teacher and the funny thing was with him, there is no in or out.

And Thankyou to him. He has and is still helping me see things i had missed, helping me experience more Samadhi, deeper connection...

 

In some way its no big deal. I think i probably would have got to this stuff eventually (only because I am unrelentig in my quest) but he has fine tuned and sped up the process.

So In some other way It is a great deal for me to have a teacher. God bless him forever.

 

The whole inner/outer thing seems hilarious now. There is only one Self and someone who knows this (Really not mentally) is invaluable.

 

Seth.

[contrivedname!]

Hui-Neng? Where have I heard that name before? Oh yeah, he was the the head of a school dedicated to assisting its students.

 

And there was another guy named Hui-Peng, who decided to enlighten himself, by himself. Anyone heard of him? No? Hmm...

It is not the same concept, and as I have worked with C++, PHP and SQL myself, I am speaking from experience. Are you speaking from experience?

 

have not heard of hui-peng, sorry

 

and no i dont have experience with either programming or surgery, my point was that if you are comparing any two vastly different types of practice, surgery and spiritual cultivation or programming and cultivation i think one might be running into the problem of oversimplification. i guess i see surgery and programming as two technical trades that dont have a whole lot to do w/ spiritual cultivation. i see it as being the same kind of concept in that they are analogies taking two things that arent spiritual practice and comparing them to spiritual practice in order to illustrate two diverging points, i agree that programming and surgery are probably a lot different.

 

good point about hui-neng; the exact "teaching" a student may need could be to "enlighten" themselves and to not rely on a teacher

[TheWhiteRabbit]

It seems that most people dont even know how to select a teacher that is good, let alone know what is good or bad for training.

 

You can intuit things, but as has been proven on this path if you do not know of the methods before hand, or for that matter know what a bowling ball is before you pick up the impressions of it intuitively... You wouldnt know how to interpret a bowling ball, if you didnt know what one was before.

 

I helped spear head a lot of study of this when dealing with magic and intuition on other forums. For the most part, this aspect of Chi Kung training takes a while to learn even with a teacher. On your own, perhaps longer...

And visualization is not it. It is actually FEELING the energy.

 

Even at that if you did know these perception type meditations, you still would have to deal with illusions that pop up that distort your reality, i.e. how you percieve things.

 

Even higher level chikung teachers like the Medical ChiKung people who are trained and certified say 'It is unethical to train someone in ChiKung of any kind without close supervision.' That has always seemed to be the rule rather than the exception, regardless of what people may think.

 

A good example is an illusion pops up in your mind that energy is flowing a different way in your body than it actually is. This is called an illusion, because most people have not been taught how to properly feel the energy they make misteaks, usually bad.