Is a Guru/Master/etc needed?

[Unconditioned]

I am curious as to what other people's opinions are on finding a Guru/Master/Teacher for your spiritual practice. I have not had one to date and have used books, youTube, forums (like this one), etc. to learn practices which I then do and learn directly from those experiences.

 

I've also done some 'experimental' meditation - for example during meditation if i do something such as move my eyes upwards I feel a strong sense of energy. I later found out that this is a type of yoga meditation for the ajna chakra. This has happened on a half a dozen occasions where I did something that resonated only to find out that it is a formal meditation practice.

 

So, is listening to the 'inner guru' (intuition) an effective technique or am I just reinventing the wheel through experimentation from time to time within my daily practice?

[sheng zhen]

Yes a teacher is needed.

 

You could ask yourself if someone can become a scientist without going to school? You can fool around with newspaperarticles and believe that you know a lot, but you wont get anywhere with your science-projects without many years of difficult study at the university.

 

Same with cultivation.

 

You can fool around with youtube and books, but the real development comes when you have a good teacher.

 

A lot of people will probably say that all you need is the divine and the inner guru. That is true, but the inner guru will eventually guide you to a teacher because that is the only way real cultivation can happen.

 

I fool around with youtube and books as a hobby, not as my real cultivation

Edited October 27, 2008 by sheng zhen

[Yuen Biao]

 

You could ask yourself if someone can become a scientist without going to school? You can fool around with newspaperarticles and believe that you know a lot, but you wont get anywhere with your science-projects without many years of difficult study at the university.

 

An empiricist would tell you it is possible to learn a thing without guidance.

I'm not advocating that at all but it is possible due to the naturalness that one feels in their training. If things are uncomfortable you refine and learn from that experience.

 

A teacher can help but is surely not necessary.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Yuen Biao

[sheng zhen]

An empiricist would tell you it is possible to learn a thing without guidance.

I'm not advocating that at all but it is possible due to the naturalness that one feels in their training. If things are uncomfortable you refine and learn from that experience.

 

A teacher can help but is surely not necessary.

But how many people with outstanding results in their cultivation have not had any teachers other than their own connection to the divine?

 

In theory it is possible, but not in reality. The divine will sooner or later guide the individual to the perfect teacher.

[thelerner]

In the western world I don't know if we need a master or guru, but having a regular teacher will excellerate your progress ofcourse a teacher is no substitute for regular practice.

 

Without a teacher the groove you create may become a rut. Bad posture, moving too fast or too slow, sloppiness and complacency.

 

 

Michael

[Yuen Biao]

But how many people with outstanding results in their cultivation have not had any teachers other than their own connection to the divine?

 

In theory it is possible, but not in reality. The divine will sooner or later guide the individual to the perfect teacher.

 

Buddha, Chang San-feng perhaps? There are many more, people who defined their art without guides or help.

 

But I agree with 'thelerner' in that we often need guidance in our practise to make sure we do not develop bad habits.

[sheng zhen]

Buddha, Chang San-feng perhaps? There are many more, people who defined their art without guides or help.

 

But I agree with 'thelerner' in that we often need guidance in our practise to make sure we do not develop bad habits.

Yes, of course

 

But still, for the majority of cultivators this is not a reality. Statistically the chance of one of us being a genious to the level of buddha, Chang san-feng or the like, is close to zero. Most people, which statistically would be like saying all people, will have more luck getting a good techer.

 

I dont see any difference between cultivation or any other art. You can learn to play the piano by spontanously hit it with your hands. Or you can get a little further by whatching and instructional video on youtbe. And you can go even further with time and practice. But with a teacher your skill will really flourish! Cultivation is no differnent.

[mantis]

Buddha, Chang San-feng perhaps? There are many more, people who defined their art without guides or help.

 

But I agree with 'thelerner' in that we often need guidance in our practise to make sure we do not develop bad habits.

 

lol so are you comparing yourself with the buddha or chang san-feng?

[styrofoamdog]

Why are you asking this question on a forum, from people who may have very different traditions than your own? Some will say that it is necessary, and some will not. If you are learning from different sources, what do they say about learning from books?

 

There have been great Daoist masters who only learned from books and classics. There have also been great Buddhist masters who have only read the sutras, but studied carefully, practiced with dedication, and achieved enlightenment. The difference between them and you, is that they had access to good information and knew how and what to study. Not to mention that when people had access to these texts, they valued the information and practiced diligently.

 

Trying to learn something as serious as cultivation haphazardly from different sources (including YouTube) and trying to piece them together is a serious mistake. Whether you have a master or not, you should go through one door and study broadly, deeply, and carefully.

[Yuen Biao]

lol so are you comparing yourself with the buddha or chang san-feng?

 

Er no! And LOL at you jumping to conclusions and generally being facetious.

[mystic red pheonix]

In my own experience teachers come and go, but masters none. The journey is about exploration with much coming from within. I have a feeling a guru will turn up when needed, in the mean time much can be done solitary. Are not mistakes to be learnt from.

[Taoist81]

Every lineage/tradition either started from another one, or was founded by someone who "made it up". At the same time, having a teacher to go to with questions and to be tested by is advantageous. If you can find a teacher, do it, if not, do what you can on your own until you can or until you "make it". Good luck.

[Sloppy Zhang]

It'd be good to have a master, someone who's been there done that and can give you valuable pointers.

 

Then again, what about the people "in the beginning" who didn't have anything except themselves and a place to sit, but somehow they got along fine

 

lol so are you comparing yourself with the buddha or chang san-feng?

 

Well the Buddha seemed like a pretty normal guy who did some self cultivation and then attained Buddhahood... kind of an oversimplification buuuuut... I think I'm a fairly normal guy doing some self cultivation so... I guess you could say that I am... I mean hey, anything is possible, right?

 

Then there's Zhang Sanfeng being my taobum namesake so....

Edited October 27, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[Taiji Bum]

You dont need a master in my opinion, just meditate.

[Starjumper]

Well the Buddha seemed like a pretty normal guy who did some self cultivation and then attained Buddhahood... kind of an oversimplification buuuuut...

 

Buddha was from the Warrior class in a ruler's family, and had extensive training in the martial arts, including the spiritual side of those arts, no doubt from high level masters. Martial/spiritual goes the farthest, I think, particularly for those that start at a young age.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Starjumper7

[mantis]

Er no! And LOL at you jumping to conclusions and generally being facetious.

 

okay, we'll see if you accomplish what he did

 

in 20 lifetimes

 

peace

[sheng zhen]

okay, we'll see if you accomplish what he did

 

in 20 lifetimes

 

peace

20 lifetimes??? You're too kind

 

Buddha was from the Warrior class in a ruler's family, and had extensive training in the martial arts, including the spiritual side of those arts, no doubt from high level masters. Martial/spiritual goes the farthest, I think, particularly for those that start at a young age.

Yes. Probably ALL those who claim sudden revelation has had extencive training beforehand. For MANY liftimes. With MANY teachers. But they go into the historybooks as someone lucky, blessed, special or divine. When in reality what was needed was hard work through disipline, groundshaking traumas, crisis and deep fear. ...and good teachers.

Edited October 27, 2008 by sheng zhen

[Unconditioned]

Trying to learn something as serious as cultivation haphazardly from different sources (including YouTube) and trying to piece them together is a serious mistake.

 

I respectfully disagree!

 

There is a lot of real Truth to be found on the internet. In fact, I believe this medium is one of the greatest gifts our creativity has provided us - the ability to communicate across the globe in less than a second.

 

Why do you think this is a mistake? I agree if anyone follows anything haphazardly it is a waste of time. I mean why is it a mistake to get your information from a different source? I can read the Tao Te Ching from my laptop or a book but the words are the same.

 

Isn't life a great teacher too? If I make a mistake, I realize it then correct it, learn, gain experience, and at the end of the day throw it ALL away, from it's source, and just BE. I think this is where my question came from - is it possible to live Enlightenment without the aid of a master?

 

I think the answer is yes - look at all of the masters who've done it. With serious respect for what masters have accomplished at the end of the day we are no different than a master except they are awake, they are in the state of enlightenment. We're all the same bound within our fleshy cages, it's an illusion to think that you are less than a master or greater than a master.

 

Anyhow, thank you all for the posts!

-Nate

[seadog]

Just remain open to possibilities.

Teachers can come in many forms

but they all hold one thing in common

Truly all they can do is point you

in a direction of

Stillness&emptiness.

Anything other is simply window dressing to hook your attention.

Relax the body

Relax the mind

Relax the spirit

Regardless of what we do, or don't do, the blue sky remains behind the clouds

[Unconditioned]

Just remain open to possibilities.

Teachers can come in many forms

but they all hold one thing in common

Truly all they can do is point you

in a direction of

Stillness&emptiness.

Anything other is simply window dressing to hook your attention.

Relax the body

Relax the mind

Relax the spirit

Regardless of what we do, or don't do, the blue sky remains behind the clouds

 

Thank you

[Sloppy Zhang]

Buddha was from the Warrior class in a ruler's family, and had extensive training in the martial arts, including the spiritual side of those arts, no doubt from high level masters. Martial/spiritual goes the farthest, I think, particularly for those that start at a young age.

 

Yes but there were plenty of other warriors and members of the upper class that didn't become enlightened with what they already knew He was perfectly "normal" within the context of his own society.

 

But even now, most people in the modern world in a developed country have some level of schooling and most of them have certain religious exposure, that's a heck of a lot more than non-royal classes had back in the day, and even in the modern world a lot more than some people receive in a lifetime!

 

Even if you compare a "normal" person today to a "normal" person back then, the normal person today (well at least judging from an American standard, as that's the education system that I was brought up in, can't speak for other education systems) is much more educated than your average joe back in the day. Even compared to an aristocrat of the old times, in some places a high school education gives you a great amount of exposure (there are some darn good schools out there), but even your standard 4 year college graduate, an "average" working guy, could have had the same levels of educational exposure.

 

I really don't feel like going into too much detail on comparing education systems of the modern world, the ancient world, crunching numbers for the literary rates, levels of education, and blah blah blah but it seems to even out.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[mantis]

this is where i agree with william bodri, when he says that you cannot continue your ways and expect the tao to find you; it doesn't work that way, you have to put the sweat & tears in, imho.

[Taiji Bum]

All the masters I respect spent years in solitary meditation all day long and had no master. If you want to be a buddha then do what buddha did. If you want to be Chang San Feng then do what he did.

[styrofoamdog]

[mantis]

In practice this is not really true. In ancient times, cultivators practiced with extreme self-control and discipline for many years. Some would sit until their legs oozed pus, refusing to move as they emptied out their minds and cleansed their bodies. Are our efforts really equal to these? Masters in the past did not stumble upon immortality or enlightenment by luck.

 

But since you are partial to learning from the Internet, here is a meditation method to enter into samadhi and transform your mind and body. It's Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara's method that he used to eventually become enlightened. It's a traditional Buddhist cultivation method, but some Daoists and others used hearing as well to enter into the state of samadhi. This excerpt is from the Surangama Sutra....

 

have to agree with you here, most of us don't even have the good life (what buddha had) and we can't give even that away (how many of you are willing to become a hermit - possibly forever?). i find it extremely disrespectful, to say the least, that people think becoming a buddha or attaining enlightenment is some type of cakewalk. an increasing percentage of this community can not even control their tempers (myself included) but we think we deserve it all.

Edited October 28, 2008 by mantis