Chanting names of goddess

[mwight]

Nope. Not true.

 

 

I've heard that people who have mastered meditation can fill a dantein in a little under a week if they meditate all day every day, for everyone else though I would still say it would take thousands of hours.

 

Also if you have some stories to share of symbols, ritual, or otherwise western magickal concepts holding real power over the physical world without being powered by chi or spirits I would love to hear about them.

 

Mwight, you know those monks who do tummo? They also chant mantras. A lot of them. They probably chanted hundreds of thousands of mantras before they even learned it.

That said, I don't really buy wicca and a lot of new age stuff either. I mean maybe people can have some benefit, better life, but that's it. But I think similarly about qigong (except I know for sure it's not just bs unlike some other things) which you value so highly...

 

madoDvtKEes

[Unconditioned]

ok guys and gals...

 

feel free to do all the silly rituals, and recite all the names of all the goddesses that ever were, stand on your head and chant ohm padmay hum, while spinning around three times and drinking the dragons blood potion through your nose. Because you know what... its BS... it will never get you closer to enlightenment... it will never get you closer to liberation.... it will never aid you in the development of powers or abilities.... as a matter of fact it wont do anything at all except for make you look really retarded.

Deep deep deep meditation, deep enough to the point where your fully aware but completely disconnected from the physical sensory data your body is relaying to your brain, thats where you want to be. The void... beyond death... thats where you want to be.

Wasting your time with newage wicca spells and potions and mantra's and sigils and signets and chanting and getting naked and dancing round bonfires.... is just a colossal waste of your time, that is assuming you actually want to accomplish something with your practice.

 

Different strokes for different folks

 

I cannot say one way or the other what is 'better' but I can say that we should at a minimum respect each other's paths, decisions, and beliefs. Skepticism is an extremely useful tool but there is no benefit in calling out one person's path as better or worse.

 

What color is better, blue or red? It's all a matter of subjectivity... what resonates with each of us is more important than comparing one way to another.

 

With love and respect,

-Nate

[Pero]

Mwight, so what? He learned to heat up his body or whatever, big deal. I have that power too. I can wear warmer clothes. His power is cooler though.

Anyway, if you think that will get you enlightenment why don't go to this guy and learn from him? Then when you learn it, come back and tell us how much more enlightened you are.

 

I think it's kind of like asking Pithagoras to teach you how to construct a space ship because he figured out some math stuff.

[mwight]

I was simply trying to point out with that video that chanting doesn't play a role in tummo itself.

[Pero]

But tummo technique by itself doesn't lead to enlightenment either.

[mwight]

But tummo technique by itself doesn't lead to enlightenment either.

 

no but it gets results and is well documented... unlike wicca and witchcraft.

 

my primary objective for living is to stop the rebirth process, so I try to investigate systems which actually produce results like tummo. figure out how and why they work what's going on and how it might help me with my goal. I try hard only to listen to opinions given by individuals in systems which get results, and I don't pay attention to any from those in systems that don't. I don't really care if I achieve enlightenment anymore, I just don't want to be reborn into a world like this one again.

[Pero]

I see. May I ask why?

[Stigweard]

mwight,

 

Friend, you entirely missed what I was saying and as a result your 'rebuttal' actually gave proof to the point I was making.

 

If you read my post carefully you would have realised that I explicitly acknowledge the failings of many Western magical traditions. And you would have understood that the very same traditions that you extoll are the same ones that I practice and promote.

 

And I will also say that you seem far to fixated on external 'tricks' as validity for your chosen spiritual path. I was a professional magician for many years, I know how easy it is to fool people into believing one has supernatural powers.

 

The real magic is the transformation of consciousness and the true proof is someone who is living a life that contains the Five Taoist Blessings: Happiness, Longevity, Wealth, Health, and a Natural Death.

 

You want proof of magic? Take a young drugged out hippy suffering from chronic illness and mental delusions and see him transform into an independent, mature, self-responsible man with a beautiful wife, children and grandchildren, living a life full of health, prosperity and happiness.

 

That my friend is all the evidence I need that Taoist 'magick' truly works. How about you?

 

Sorry Stig,

 

I call BS.

 

If you think magick of any kind is so powerful, then lets see it. And this isn't just directed to you its to anyone else here also... seth etc.

 

Show one example. Just one..

 

Post a video of you using mantras or symbols sigils, potions, chanting, or spells and crystals to produce some paranormal phenomenon.

 

There is tons of awesome research done on qigong, neigong, metta meditation, tummo meditation.

 

Lots of things believed to be impossible caught on camera and studied in a laboratory... Monks who can control their metabolism, sit out in the snow all night naked or go into a coma like state and be pronounced dead by MDs, monks who can generate huge amounts of gamma band brainwaves, qigong masters who can throw chopsticks through sheet metal from 15 feet, and monks who can throw sowing needles through 1/2in glass, qigong masters who produce huge amounts of infrasonic sound 70db or more and infrared radiation from their palms, anomalies in the decay rates of cesium via qigong, and lots more. I've got a whole video section in my personal practice section of really awesome documentaries on these guys...

 

But you'd think we'd see SOMETHING like this for modern newagey magick users if there was one shred of validity to any of it wouldn't you?????

 

So I challenge you to present me with some good evidence....

 

lets see it... put your money where your mouth is.

[mwight]

I see. May I ask why?

 

There is a splinter in my mind, driving me mad... lets leave it at that.

 

 

0_8Zq_iWuFg

Edited November 3, 2008 by mwight

[mwight]

mwight,

 

If you saw someone who, through their own stupidity, drove their car over a cliff ... you wouldn't hold the car to blame would you?

 

So just because your misguided friends deluded themselves with spells and rituals does not necessarily mean that the use of Talismanic Characters, Chants, Rituals, Invocations etc. are all, to use your words, "BS".

 

 

To use your analogy, I've never seen any "cars" period. Just a bunch of idiots jumping off cliffs, making vroom vroom noises.

 

 

I've never seen talismans or chants rituals or invocations produce results, and if they do I suspect that the underlying principal behind them is either trickery, chi or the use of spirits.

 

I would be interested in learning more about systems that make use of such things, assuming that they are at least as well documented and confirmed as qigong/neigong is currently. I find that reasonable.

 

I think my biggest problem with such systems is faith, I don't like faith as a concept. I like believing in things which you have observed or experienced, rather than pure faith. I was atheist until I experienced something beyond my comprehension, and watched others experience aftershocks from it. I'm a I'll believe it when I see it (or experience it) kind of guy.

 

The power of void meditation, qigong and neigong to me is undeniable, I've experienced it, others in my life have also.

 

Western style magick.... not so much..

[Seth Ananda]

seth,

 

The point I am making is there is plenty of evidence to support qigong, neigong, tummo, and metta meditations...

 

There isn't any (that I know of) to support magickal chants, sigils, rituals, etc.

 

Also I fail to see how its narrow minded to reject systems which aren't validated with hard evidence, thats just being rational.

Fair enough. But I would like to say again there is plenty of evidence for the brain state change that happens during Ritual. Swami Rama also baffled the havard medical team controlling his body heat, pain sensing, heart and blood movement using just strongly visualized Symbols from the Tattva symbols. (I think it was Havard, its a long time since my Psych text books)

 

So what Kind of 'Proof do you want? Empirical or Anecdotal?

 

Skeptics today Hide behind a wall of Empirical data from an ever increasing tidlewave of Anecdotal evidence.

If you ever had a psychic episode where you suddenly had access to information not normally available to you or you did something that you just 'can't' do in 'reality' then all a skeptic has to do is scream "Anecdotal Evidence!" and that is it for them. they never have to think about it again.

 

And when (in one poll) 85% of people claim to have had a supernatural experience (of any kind) they can still just shout their Saftey Mantra, "Anecdotal Evidence". A position which is highly insulting as it only leaves open 3 categories for the experiencer. that of :

'Nuff Nuff - a below standard intelligence person.

or a Lying fraud with something to gain..

Or just plainly wrong, mistaken or coincidental.

 

It doesn't matter how Impossible what happened was, its still just anecdotal evidence.

 

Not all Subjects give up there secrets in a laboratory, and yes it is closed minded to demand that kind of Proof. Magick deals far more in spontaneity and once off effects as you generally dont need to make something happen again once you have had your success. and Empirical testing demands that it all happen in the Controlled lab, over and over again, under an 'Aura' of scientific disbelief. All completely antithical to the environment needed to make Magick happen.

 

How can you Prove a child's past life memory in a lab? the anecdotal evidence is piled up so high it amazes me intelligent people can still deny it.

 

I'm with you on the 'new agey' magick but even that can trigger something sometimes and that may inspire someone to look a bit deeper for the real stuff.

 

What about the McDonalds Logo and Nike and... If symbol systems had no power Advertizing wound be the second biggest industry on the planet. There are (yes, empirical )studies where they have hooked up someones brain and showed them different corporate logo's and low and behold, Mcdonalds triggers the hunger response... Sounds like magick to me.

 

Seth Ananda.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Seth Ananda

[SiliconValley]

Seth, very well-said!

[Seth Ananda]

To use your analogy, I've never seen any "cars" period. Just a bunch of idiots jumping off cliffs, making vroom vroom noises.

I've never seen talismans or chants rituals or invocations produce results, and if they do I suspect that the underlying principal behind them is either trickery, chi or the use of spirits.

 

I would be interested in learning more about systems that make use of such things, assuming that they are at least as well documented and confirmed as qigong/neigong is currently. I find that reasonable.

 

I think my biggest problem with such systems is faith, I don't like faith as a concept. I like believing in things which you have observed or experienced, rather than pure faith. I was atheist until I experienced something beyond my comprehension, and watched others experience aftershocks from it. I'm a I'll believe it when I see it (or experience it) kind of guy.

 

The power of void meditation, qigong and neigong to me is undeniable, I've experienced it, others in my life have also.

 

Western style magick.... not so much..

Thought Id add quickly, that you don't want Faith or belief in Magick. Its better that way. Occasionally you choose to deliberately believe something for a short period to add power, but if you are doing results Magick dont bother. It is just a standard formula and requires nothing but a wilingness to try it.

To any other practitioners, that is just the way I see it. Have Fun!

Seth Ananda

 

Seth, very well-said!

Thanks Silicon. I think this Empirical/Anecdotal debate is one of the most important issues on the planet right now.

Seth Ananda

[mwight]

Fair enough. But I would like to say again there is plenty of evidence for the brain state change that happens during Ritual. Swami Rama also baffled the havard medical team controlling his body heat, pain sensing, heart and blood movement using just strongly visualized Symbols from the Tattva symbols. (I think it was Havard, its a long time since my Psych text books)

 

So what Kind of 'Proof do you want? Empirical or Anecdotal?

 

Skeptics today Hide behind a wall of Empirical data from an ever increasing tidlewave of Anecdotal evidence.

If you ever had a psychic episode where you suddenly had access to information not normally available to you or you did something that you just 'can't' do in 'reality' then all a skeptic has to do is scream "Anecdotal Evidence!" and that is it for them. they never have to think about it again.

 

And when (in one poll) 85% of people claim to have had a supernatural experience (of any kind) they can still just shout their Saftey Mantra, "Anecdotal Evidence". A position which is highly insulting as it only leaves open 3 categories for the experiencer. that of :

'Nuff Nuff - a below standard intelligence person.

or a Lying fraud with something to gain..

Or just plainly wrong, mistaken or coincidental.

 

It doesn't matter how Impossible what happened was, its still just anecdotal evidence.

 

Not all Subjects give up there secrets in a laboratory, and yes it is closed minded to demand that kind of Proof. Magick deals far more in spontaneity and once off effects as you generally dont need to make something happen again once you have had your success. and Empirical testing demands that it all happen in the Controlled lab, over and over again, under an 'Aura' of scientific disbelief. All completely antithical to the environment needed to make Magick happen.

 

How can you Prove a child's past life memory in a lab? the anecdotal evidence is piled up so high it amazes me intelligent people can still deny it.

 

I'm with you on the 'new agey' magick but even that can trigger something sometimes and that may inspire someone to look a bit deeper for the real stuff.

 

What about the McDonalds Logo and Nike and... If symbol systems had no power Advertizing wound be the second biggest industry on the planet. There are (yes, empirical )studies where they have hooked up someones brain and showed them different corporate logo's and low and behold, Mcdonalds triggers the hunger response... Sounds like magick to me.

 

Seth Ananda.

 

Seth,

 

You bring up anecdotal versus empirical I don't think it needs to be that complicated really. Either magickal ritual etc is capable of producing objective results, or it isn't. I guess by the strict definition of anecdotal evidence most of my firm belief in chi is anecdotal,

e.g. I project chi into someone and observe their response without telling them I was attempting such an experiment. It's because of the direct cause and effect nature of chi that I believe in it, if the same could be said of magick I might believe in it also.

 

I'll be honest there may be a treasure trove of legit teachings I am missing. And I do believe that visualization and intention can affect your chi and your being greatly.

 

I just don't believe that symbols, and ritual have any intrinsic power. e.g there is no combination of words you can chant or potions you can create out of herbal ingredients to "hollow out mountains" or "command armies of the undead". From everything I have seen the universe doesn't work like that, there is no correct combination of rituals or chants your can do every time to reproduce a specific result.

 

 

Sure we can be conditioned to associate symbols with stimuli, e.g. McArch with food etc. but that doesn't mean its the arch thats sending out electromagicknetic waves to make you hungry, its your own mind linking the symbol to the stimuli.

 

Maybe symbolism and patterns can be used to control the people, I've heard magick users say politicians are the highest level of magick users. If thats all it is about... the control of other peoples minds via propaganda and mind control techniques... I'm not interested in that kind of power. I don't want power over others, only myself.

Edited November 3, 2008 by mwight

[dwai]

seth,

 

The point I am making is there is plenty of evidence to support qigong, neigong, tummo, and metta meditations...

 

There isn't any (that I know of) to support magickal chants, sigils, rituals, etc.

 

Also I fail to see how its narrow minded to reject systems which aren't validated with hard evidence, thats just being rational.

 

The role of Mantra meditation --

 

Just the same as you would use Tai Chi forms or Yoga Asanas to quieten the mind, Mantras work in exactly the same way. By focusing you active mind on the task of repeating mantras, you are silencing your mind.

 

The sounds that constitute any valid mantra have to resonate and especially in sanskrit mantras, the words have effects on different parts of the body. The resonance/vibrations thus induced will result in blockages being released, thus increasing the flow of energy, helping in soong.

 

Your statement about hard evidence seems like that of a material scientist questioning the veracity of Chi or Prana.

Are you one of those Taoists who think Chi doesn't exist but is only the "biomechanical alignments" of the physical body?

[mwight]

 

Your statement about hard evidence seems like that of a material scientist questioning the veracity of Chi or Prana.

Are you one of those Taoists who think Chi doesn't exist but is only the "biomechanical alignments" of the physical body?

 

Well I've always been the kind to pick things apart and figure out how they work, I want to understand the nature of what is going on here in this world, and beyond. You know... Really Grok it...

 

No I don't believe chi is only the biomechanical alignments of the body... It seems to me to be a projectable substance, wave or force of some sort.

 

Maybe mantra does act like an aid for getting the mind stuck in a loop of sorts, forgetting your even chanting like when you repeat a word over and over and it stops sounding like a REAL word... Perhaps there is some legit purpose for the sake of meditation itself. But I haven't seen chanting or mantras as used in western magick ever accomplish anything.

 

e.g. if I chant this spell long enough I will win the lottery.... or she will fall in love with me...

[SiliconValley]

Here is what Master Huai-Chin Nan says about Mantras:

 

As stated, to achieve these transformations (including the transformations of jing into chi, chi into shen, and then shen into emptiness), the Tao school, yoga school and Esoteric school practitioners devote themselves to a variety of cultivation techniques including breathing exercises, the ingestion of special herbs, visualization practices, mantras, emptiness meditation, and so on. The purpose of these practices is to help kick off the initiation of these transformations, and set the relevant processes of transmutation into high gear.

 

Some of these practitioners with unflagging resolution use mantras and special dharma techniques to preserve their bodies. When they have perfected this means of cultivation, they are known as immortals of the lesser way.

 

To be precise, the skandha of sensation is related to the impressions you automatically impress upon your mind. In other words, feeling is related to nien, or mindfulness. For example, having a person on your mind may bring you pleasant feelings, even though you are not always thinking about them. This is caused by the operation of the skandha of sensation. Or let us say that you have the thought of scaling a cliff, which causes your feet to tingle or your body to shake. Having that thought will cause these feelings to arise which will affect your body and compel you in a certain way. This is also the sensation skandha in operation. As another instance, if someone continually recites a mantra, then after a long time the mantra will be there without any effort on your part. We can say that this, too, is a result belonging to the sensation aggregate because the impression becomes imprinted on your mind.

 

Many mantras are therefore an outcome of supernatural hearing; Hinduism says they are sound formulae constructed by carefully stringing together selected primordial vibrations (bija) according to a natural cosmological relationship. According to these teachings, a properly activated mantra acts on the universe according to the make-up of its structure. How did various mantras originally develop? Enlightened beings discovered the great mantras in the universe through their own cultivation efforts. Therefore, the mantras of the great Buddhas can be powerful indeed.

 

Another means to free yourself from these situations is to recite the Heart Sutra or Zhunti mantra. For example, Xuan Zang, hero of The Journey to the West, encountered all sorts of demons intent on destroying him when he began crossing the desert to India. To resolve the dangerous situations he often recited the Heart Sutra for personal protection, and which also reminded him that all these threats were empty.

 

When people who meditate feel heat in the area of their tan-tien, they sometimes get very excited and think this is kundalini, but this initial heat phenomenon corresponds to a process of internal friction involving the four elements of the body. The result of this frictional process is like an internal fever, and is often called the phenomenon of "steaming the bones". All you have to do is mantra for several hours, or practice holding your breath for several minutes, and this phenomenon is sure to manifest.

 

Naturally, there are many ways to attain the four dhyana and formless samadhi, and certain of these methods are common to a number of different spiritual schools. Mantra practice is one such method, as are visualization and breathing techniques.

 

Not talking "both internally and externally" also helps us to attain samadhi, although of course, some cultivation methods require us to recite mantras. But even in these cases, your mind should be internally listening to the mantra without adding any extra commentary to the sounds; the only sound experienced within mantra practice should be the sound of the mantra itself rather than any internal talking.

 

The cultivation methods employed in the world may vary considerably from school to school, but we must always remember that the ultimate target of all these methods is the same. As a single example, the various esoteric schools like to practice vajra chanting (where you do not move your lips or teeth) to get rid of all the miscellaneous thoughts of the sixth consciousness. If you practice Hindu japa mantra recitation for a long time, then the chi and the sound will become one, and there will be no more random thoughts either. This is done in Hinduism as well as Islam, Christianity and Judaism. In Christianity, if you lose yourself in reciting the rosary, this accomplishes the same task and achieves the same result.

[Seth Ananda]

Seth,

 

You bring up anecdotal versus empirical I don't think it needs to be that complicated really. Either magickal ritual etc is capable of producing objective results, or it isn't. I guess by the strict definition of anecdotal evidence most of my firm belief in chi is anecdotal,

e.g. I project chi into someone and observe their response without telling them I was attempting such an experiment. It's because of the direct cause and effect nature of chi that I believe in it, if the same could be said of magick I might believe in it also.

 

I'll be honest there may be a treasure trove of legit teachings I am missing. And I do believe that visualization and intention can affect your chi and your being greatly.

 

I just don't believe that symbols, and ritual have any intrinsic power. e.g there is no combination of words you can chant or potions you can create out of herbal ingredients to "hollow out mountains" or "command armies of the undead". From everything I have seen the universe doesn't work like that, there is no correct combination of rituals or chants your can do every time to reproduce a specific result.

Sure we can be conditioned to associate symbols with stimuli, e.g. McArch with food etc. but that doesn't mean its the arch thats sending out electromagicknetic waves to make you hungry, its your own mind linking the symbol to the stimuli.

 

Maybe symbolism and patterns can be used to control the people, I've heard magick users say politicians are the highest level of magick users. If thats all it is about... the control of other peoples minds via propaganda and mind control techniques... I'm not interested in that kind of power. I don't want power over others, only myself.

Ahh, I would tend to agree that symbols and rituals dont have any Intrinsic power on there own, after all the symbols are out there and are doing nothing with out us. Which makes Us the key Factor. That is why it is so important to find systems that 'feel' meaningful or that suit your temprament and use those.

for instance I use some Kabbalah in my Magic because of my judeo/christian up bringing and It sits right to a certain extent. I never for a moment believe that it has any special properties that I don't give it, but this brings up some interesting questions. If I were Jewish I would probably stick solely to Kabbalah as my entire religion would be invested in it, just as a Tibetan monk chants Tibetan mantras to Tibetan deities as they feel special to him or her. That feeling of Sacredness is very important. But are there Echoes of all the past Associations attached to Symbols/Rituals/Deities? I tend to think so but who knows.

 

Jung was astounded to find complex alchemical and other symbols coming up again and again from patients in depth therapy as these Alive and meaningful realities deep in their unconscious. That led him to formulate his theory of the collective unconscious and it's non local and shared reality.

If you have no experience of this world yet I suggest you spend some time getting more associated with your right brain.

I too have been astounded at seeing what effects a symbol can have on my or others minds in my work with Trance states and therapy and Magick.

 

I was part of a group that sometimes invent a new God and then create its sacred rituals, and then carry them out and it is really amazing. But then again, Nothing compares with my meetings with Kali. its completely irrational but I have no choice than to see her as my Mother and She completely overwhelms me, even when I think I don't believe in Her. Maby thats just me or maby thats because She is one of the oldest Goddesses in existence and still has a couple of million worshipers. Test that in a lab.

 

As for my Anecdotal 'proof' Magick works for me, over and over again through ever strange and wondrous avenues that just could not be tested in a lab.

My Life is Awesome and so fulfilling I can hardly handle it sometimes

in the periods I have stopped Magick everything goes back to normal. All the proof I need.

 

I wont bother debating any further as you will never Know till you give it some Honest attempts and I am more than satisfied with what it has done for me so I feel happy to sit back and laugh as people claim its non existence.

 

Love and Play

Seth Ananda

 

 

"Hey you damn lazy undead! Fetch me my slippers!"

Edited November 4, 2008 by Seth Ananda

[mwight]

Here is what Master Huai-Chin Nan says about Mantras:

 

 

He explains that mantras are an aid to meditation, I can see that.

 

But most people I know focused on western magick aren't into meditation they want to chant a spell, and drink a potion and magically accomplish something amazing like win the lottery or get rich or get that girl of their dreams or whatever.

 

What I am saying is I haven't ever heard of any magickal ritual or spell or whatever that can display real world results.

 

If magick works like that, then surely someone somewhere has been successful, and can repeat and demonstrate their talents. The online communities for wicca and witchcraft and neopaganism etc. are far larger than the communities on taoism, and qigong. Surely someone there has had success with developing magical powers.

 

If so I haven't heard about it, or seen or read any studies about it.

 

Thats the point I'm trying to make...

 

Where's the beef?

[SiliconValley]

Another means to free yourself from these situations is to recite the Heart Sutra or Zhunti mantra. For example, Xuan Zang, hero of The Journey to the West, encountered all sorts of demons intent on destroying him when he began crossing the desert to India. To resolve the dangerous situations he often recited the Heart Sutra for personal protection, and which also reminded him that all these threats were empty.

 

But he says this, which is not directly related to meditation! This can be interpreted as internal demons but not necessarily!

[mwight]

Ah... it seems maybe magick in the western sense to you is more about influencing the collective unconsciousness, effecting future events via a butterfly effect mechanism, aiding karma kind of thing...

 

That does sound fun... not my cup of tea... I like cold hard reproducible effects... mechanical cause and effect relationships... hands on understanding... etc.

 

Magick as you and others describe it sound like your trying to find some invisible Rube Goldberg Machine/Mechanism to the universe... and maybe thats how it works but I haven't seen any evidence of anyone finding that.

 

Don't get me wrong I think there is a lot science hasn't even touched, many fields of study yet undiscovered. People in 4000AD are probably laugh at our science like we would at science from 1400AD..

 

 

 

Ahh, I would tend to agree that symbols and rituals dont have any Intrinsic power on there own, after all the symbols are out there and are doing nothing with out us. Which makes Us the key Factor. That is why it is so important to find systems that 'feel' meaningful or that suit your temprament and use those.

for instance I use some Kabbalah in my Magic because of my judeo/christian up bringing and It sits right to a certain extent. I never for a moment believe that it has any special properties that I don't give it, but this brings up some interesting questions. If I were Jewish I would probably stick solely to Kabbalah as my entire religion would be invested in it, just as a Tibetan monk chants Tibetan mantras to Tibetan deities as they feel special to him or her. That feeling of Sacredness is very important. But are there Echoes of all the past Associations attached to Symbols/Rituals/Deities? I tend to think so but who knows.

 

Jung was astounded to find complex alchemical and other symbols coming up again and again from patients in depth therapy as these Alive and meaningful realities deep in their unconscious. That led him to formulate his theory of the collective unconscious and it's non local and shared reality.

If you have no experience of this world yet I suggest you spend some time getting more associated with your right brain.

I too have been astounded at seeing what effects a symbol can have on my or others minds in my work with Trance states and therapy and Magick.

 

I was part of a group that sometimes invent a new God and then create its sacred rituals, and then carry them out and it is really amazing. But then again, Nothing compares with my meetings with Kali. its completely irrational but I have no choice than to see her as my Mother and She completely overwhelms me, even when I think I don't believe in Her. Maby thats just me or maby thats because She is one of the oldest Goddesses in existence and still has a couple of million worshipers. Test that in a lab.

 

As for my Anecdotal 'proof' Magick works for me, over and over again through ever strange and wondrous avenues that just could not be tested in a lab.

My Life is Awesome and so fulfilling I can hardly handle it sometimes

in the periods I have stopped Magick everything goes back to normal. All the proof I need.

 

I wont bother debating any further as you will never Know till you give it some Honest attempts and I am more than satisfied with what it has done for me so I feel happy to sit back and laugh as people claim its non existence.

 

Love and Play

Seth Ananda

"Hey you damn lazy undead! Fetch me my slippers!"

[phore]

i think its important to note that most mantras affect chi. all the ones ive used anyways

rituals focus chi

herbs use earth chi

gods and goddesses invokes chi in the patterns they represent

symbols arrange chi into patterns.

sound is just a type of chi.

i think thats right

magic uses 5 elemental chi a lot it seems. which are different patterns of chi.

I bet john chang could do better wicca than me.

[Seth Ananda]

He explains that mantras are an aid to meditation, I can see that.

 

But most people I know focused on western magick aren't into meditation they want to chant a spell, and drink a potion and magically accomplish something amazing like win the lottery or get rich or get that girl of their dreams or whatever.

 

What I am saying is I haven't ever heard of any magickal ritual or spell or whatever that can display real world results.

 

If magick works like that, then surely someone somewhere has been successful, and can repeat and demonstrate their talents. The online communities for wicca and witchcraft and neopaganism etc. are far larger than the communities on taoism, and qigong. Surely someone there has had success with developing magical powers.

 

If so I haven't heard about it, or seen or read any studies about it.

 

Thats the point I'm trying to make...

 

Where's the beef?

Ok. 1 more (and last)

This is getting ridiculous. You said you have never heard of Magick getting results in the real world which is B.S. as I just told you that It works for me, and you obviously haven't looked very far. Go to any number of forums and read. they are not sitting there asking each other if anyone has ever seen anything real actually happen. They are talking about the REAL RESULTS they are getting, or their failures and asking for advice on how to improve their technique witch is a never ending process of growth.

 

And which real world are you talking about? the Scientific Materialist one?

Some people have demonstrated their Talents publicly and you can usually consider their path a cautionary tale.

 

You Keep missing my point that Magick is spontaneous. When you Need or really want something the charge is there and the magic will work but thats no guarantee that it will work once the charge has gone (a second time)

Also The most important principle of making Magick work is forgetting about it after the ritual. A usefull analogy is Letting go of the ball, so it can follow your will. This means that you can not do results Magick with some member of the Scientific Priesthood there who is waiting to see the results, as while he is there the results will never happen. Score One for the Irrational! Yeah

 

If you want to ask how Magick works, outside of hollowing out mountains and hordes of undead slaves, and other Hollywood drivel as well as the useless pop culture teenage witch stuff, I am more than Happy to share my views and Experiences, but otherwise I really am pulling out now and leaving this thread to the Goddess Discussion.

The Rational is only half the story.

Magick doesn't follow any neat set of rules.

Things I have done in the real world with Magick:

Made rain in a drought many times.

Brought hard needed Cash many times...

Aquired all kinds of Items...

Knocked over some people without touch

Cursed an enemy (back in the old days) with devastating results in all areas of his life.

Redirected the Attention of the Authorities many times.

Helped heal many people of diseases, including one man of HIV. All his many previous tests were declared a remarkable case of repeated miss-diagnosis.

Read minds and varified it.

Had ongoing telepathic exchanges with various people, and later we would confirm the conversations.

 

All this is still far less Interesting to me than the Internal changes and subtler stuff.

So either I am lying, deluded, unstable, or Stupid...

Or maby I am Telling the truth as best I can about something Real.

 

Peace.

Seth Ananda

 

 

 

 

Seth Ananda

[mwight]

Seth,

 

I'd have to confirm your findings in person in order to truly accept them, I would hope you would expect the same of me. If you can cast a spell and make me fall over, I'd believe your practice is a legit no doubt man.

 

I am not saying your a liar. I wouldn't expect you to just automatically believe me if I said others have felt my chi and reacted immediately to it without me hinting or telling them about it.

 

 

What I am saying is in my life I have never encountered anything like that before, I want to study such a phenomenon. Document it, observe it, understand it, figure out what makes it tick. Understand it, grok it.

 

If I can't do that then its worthless to me, as I can't pick it apart and figure out what makes it tick.

 

If magic doesn't follow the rules, and or it isn't able to be repeated on command then you can't really study it or perfect it in a scientific sense. There is no way to know if is actually doing something or what your experiencing is coincidence.

 

To me different schools of Taoist neigong offer a very systematic and methodical and mechanical approach.

e.g. Practice mediation in this manner and you will experience these results after so many hours of total training, x,y,z,

 

I'd say its a very scientific approach to religion and spirituality. At least for me it is, and thats why I like it and dislike western magick so much it seems more random and chaotic and prone to chance and happenstance.

Edited November 4, 2008 by mwight

[dwai]

 

To me different schools of Taoist neigong offer a very systematic and methodical and mechanical approach.

e.g. Practice mediation in this manner and you will experience these results after so many hours of total training, x,y,z,

 

I'd say its a very scientific approach to religion and spirituality. At least for me it is, and thats why I like it and dislike western magick so much it seems more random and chaotic and prone to chance and happenstance.

 

Systems like Yoga and Taoist Nei gung indeed are very systematic and pragmatic ways to experience Infinity.

And my limited exposure to Magick etc tells me that a lot of the New-agey stuff that's happening out there might be haphazard and not very practically organized. But the roots of these systems have some depth to them.

 

For instance, The Native American's way of experiencing Infinity is as bonafide as that of a Taoist or a Yogi. The end result is what matters, the methods are just means to the end. Based on one's practice the results will come sooner or later. The results will be benign or malignant. The effects will be sublime or violent.

 

I took exception to your statement that Mantras are bogus. It is obvious that you did not know enough about Mantras to make that judgment. Similarly, isn't it possible that your knowledge in the subject of Wicca is inadequate and that you might not be very well equipped to make a judgment?

 

Best,

 

Dwai