Chanting names of goddess

[mwight]

Systems like Yoga and Taoist Nei gung indeed are very systematic and pragmatic ways to experience Infinity.

And my limited exposure to Magick etc tells me that a lot of the New-agey stuff that's happening out there might be haphazard and not very practically organized. But the roots of these systems have some depth to them.

 

For instance, The Native American's way of experiencing Infinity is as bonafide as that of a Taoist or a Yogi. The end result is what matters, the methods are just means to the end. Based on one's practice the results will come sooner or later. The results will be benign or malignant. The effects will be sublime or violent.

 

I took exception to your statement that Mantras are bogus. It is obvious that you did not know enough about Mantras to make that judgment. Similarly, isn't it possible that your knowledge in the subject of Wicca is inadequate and that you might not be very well equipped to make a judgment?

 

Best,

 

Dwai

 

Depending on your goals, mantra may still be worthless and bogus. Can you mantra your way to winning the lottery, no. Can you mantra your way into a mediative trance, maybe.

 

I don't know much about native American systems and traditions, so I can't really comment on them.

 

For my purposes at least I find wicca and modern neopaganism worthless, I've never seen or heard of anything I consider notable coming from years of research and practice in it that field. Perhaps if it makes some people happy as a hobby and or religion then it does fit their needs, so its not worthless to them.

 

 

They say; mimicry is the highest form of flattery.

 

I seek to mimic systems that work, and understand how and why they do. To develop my own map of reality if you will.

 

At least to me it makes perfect sense, a clear cut no bull approach.

 

Maybe I'm missing something though.

[dwai]

Depending on your goals, mantra may still be worthless and bogus. Can you mantra your way to winning the lottery, no. Can you mantra your way into a mediative trance, maybe.

 

You can chant Mantras into a trance or you can attain liberation, merge with the Tao. That's what I've been trying to articulate -- the power of Mantra is limited by the level and intelligence of the practitioner and the accuracy of approach. It's the same with Nei Gung...wouldn't you say so?

 

I don't know much about native American systems and traditions, so I can't really comment on them.

 

For my purposes at least I find wicca and modern neopaganism worthless, I've never seen or heard of anything I consider notable coming from years of research and practice in it that field. Perhaps if it makes some people happy as a hobby and or religion then it does fit their needs, so its not worthless to them.

 

What kind of objective Scientific research have you come across on Taoist Nei Gung that will stand under the scrutiny of a materialist scientific study? I'm interested in knowing..will add to my collection of material used in refuting and debating Material Scientists.

 

They say; mimicry is the highest form of flattery.

 

I seek to mimic systems that work, and understand how and why they do. To develop my own map of reality if you will.

 

At least to me it makes perfect sense, a clear cut no bull approach.

 

Maybe I'm missing something though.

 

 

You are right. But perhaps Mimic is not the appropriate word -- practice maybe? Mimic gives the sense of mindless automaton-like imitation.

 

Okay...Let me recommend you look up the Theory of Bio-cultures. It postulates that depending on the culture a subject is born into (and belongs to), a specific part of the brain leads his/her interaction with the world. This in turn defines how the subject perceives and interprets sensory stimuli.

Bottom line is that there is no "right way or wrong way" to perceive and interpret things. Based on one's bioculture, sensory as well as interpretive apparatuses vary and work.

 

Take some time to read this article -- it's a very good starter to understanding why/how people of different backgrounds have different insights and experiences with things.

 

Neurobiology and Yoga -- From the gods of the Amygdala to the God of the Heart

The more I observe the behaviors and approaches of different types of people, the biocultural theory seems more and more plausible and infact logical to me.

[Xienkula1]

Depending on your goals, mantra may still be worthless and bogus. Can you mantra your way to winning the lottery

 

Who are you to limit the power of mantra, have you experienced it? Humble yourself.

[mwight]

To be honest I am not sure if mantra can aid in liberation or not, perhaps as a tool for mediation maybe, but then any object of focus could do that. Perhaps walking and living if given 100% of your focus and attention could serve the same purpose. To be honest I don't know I've never met a liberated being.

 

As to scientific evidence, check out my videos in my personal practice section.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...6-2005Jan2.html

 

http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Qigong-Ex...2861&sr=8-1

 

some random links from google:

 

http://www.mindboxing.com/articles/art-9.htm

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/2000...100A0357987.php

http://www.tcminter.net/Artikel/Qigongresearch.html

 

 

 

 

You can chant Mantras into a trance or you can attain liberation, merge with the Tao. That's what I've been trying to articulate -- the power of Mantra is limited by the level and intelligence of the practitioner and the accuracy of approach. It's the same with Nei Gung...wouldn't you say so?

What kind of objective Scientific research have you come across on Taoist Nei Gung that will stand under the scrutiny of a materialist scientific study? I'm interested in knowing..will add to my collection of material used in refuting and debating Material Scientists.

You are right. But perhaps Mimic is not the appropriate word -- practice maybe? Mimic gives the sense of mindless automaton-like imitation.

 

Okay...Let me recommend you look up the Theory of Bio-cultures. It postulates that depending on the culture a subject is born into (and belongs to), a specific part of the brain leads his/her interaction with the world. This in turn defines how the subject perceives and interprets sensory stimuli.

Bottom line is that there is no "right way or wrong way" to perceive and interpret things. Based on one's bioculture, sensory as well as interpretive apparatuses vary and work.

 

Take some time to read this article -- it's a very good starter to understanding why/how people of different backgrounds have different insights and experiences with things.

 

Neurobiology and Yoga -- From the gods of the Amygdala to the God of the Heart

The more I observe the behaviors and approaches of different types of people, the biocultural theory seems more and more plausible and infact logical to me.

 

 

Who are you to limit the power of mantra, have you experienced it? Humble yourself.

 

grbSQ6O6kbs

 

LOL...

 

In all seriousness though.. I don't think it has any real world power. Maybe its a good tool to slip into a trance. If you know of any mantra's which do cool nifty things please keep me updated.

Edited November 4, 2008 by mwight

[SiliconValley]

In all seriousness though.. I don't think it has any real world power. Maybe its a good tool to slip into a trance. If you know of any mantra's which do cool nifty things please keep me updated.

 

You are not ready to listen to anything being said with an open mind! You do not trust the scriptures! You do not believe the tales about masters of the past who are said to have worked wonders internally and externally using mantras. You do not trust words of a current master who is believed widely to be enlightened by even the likes of Dalai Lama! You do not want to invest some time and check for yourself if mantras have any power. You also want to claim that you are more sensible than generations of so called wise men across different cultures who devoted lifetimes to practice of mantra. And the basis of your argument against all of this is: "I Don't think"

 

So, now that you have decided you want to "perceive" the Supreme Being who is supposedly "imperceptible" through the Physical Faculties of sense and mind, there is really nothing anyone can say to convince you. I would think no one really needs to waste time trying to do that for you are probably meant never to experience the bliss of mantra practice. May be your path is different which makes you argue endlessly in this fashion! One lesson I learnt here is the patience displayed by some members on this board who have patiently tried to reason when the person here has already made up his mind not to be reasonable! If one were sincere, I could take him/her to my teacher, who is a Research Scientist in a top notch organization, and an accomplished master, who can actually make the presence of deities felt through the power of mantras. Or I can suggest a very powerful mantra like Chinnamasta which, if practiced for even a week sincerely and correctly can prove itself beyond any doubt. But what really is the point? There are people right here on this board who, through the merit of mantra practice, have experienced deities like Tara and Vajrakilaya.

 

The fifty-one letters of Sanskrit alphabet are supposed to be the limbs of the Deity of learning Sarasvati. Every specific combination has a specific result and represents a particular deity. Actually the fifty-one letters themselves constitute of a mantra called Matrika, which is practiced as a foundational technique to prepare the channels for opening. At a certain stage, when you are reciting this mantra, you can actually see prana gushing to different areas in your body and the feeling is simply unexplainable. Now, if one can believe that moving hands left and right in Chi Kung can have some effects, why cannot one believe that specific brainwave patterns generated by reciting specific mantras can have similar effects at some level? This is like: I don't believe God...prove to me if he exists. This is cause mantra represents the sound form of the deity and yantra the visual. Go figure out through methods other than argument

Edited November 4, 2008 by SiliconValley

[phore]

Hey guys i just bought a circle is cast by libanna (from my first post)

its really beautiful chanting

i will definitely buy the other two cds in the morning

highly recommended (unless you have some sort 4 page vendetta against wicca then you might want to steer clear of this one )

Edited November 4, 2008 by phore

[sirius]

heya phore!

 

many years ago, when i was a member of a "serious" wicca group, i made an experiment with the invocation of a godess. i was ill (had caught a terrible cold) and i called the godess isis for help. i did this out of intuition. soon after my "invocation" i fell asleep. i started dreaming. and in my dream i met the godess. i was so surprised and impressed that i tried to paint a picture with water colours some days later, when i felt better.

i cant say that the process of healing was shorter or something like that. and of course the sceptics will say that my dream-vision was nothing but a result of fever. but for me this was a real encounter with the godess.

it was very convincing, because in my dream i had seen isis with all her attributes (that i did not know before). and afterwards i found all these details (that i had seen in my dream) in a book.

 

my experiences with wicca were mostly positive. i learned a lot about energy work. and the excercises they did remind me a little bit of the zanh zhuang chi kung. and the healing ceremonies were similar to some of the chi kung practices.

wiccan energy work led me to chi kung some years later...

 

a gwyr arwin arbed

 

sirius

[phore]

heya phore!

 

many years ago, when i was a member of a "serious" wicca group, i made an experiment with the invocation of a godess. i was ill (had caught a terrible cold) and i called the godess isis for help. i did this out of intuition. soon after my "invocation" i fell asleep. i started dreaming. and in my dream i met the godess. i was so surprised and impressed that i tried to paint a picture with water colours some days later, when i felt better.

i cant say that the process of healing was shorter or something like that. and of course the sceptics will say that my dream-vision was nothing but a result of fever. but for me this was a real encounter with the godess.

it was very convincing, because in my dream i had seen isis with all her attributes (that i did not know before). and afterwards i found all these details (that i had seen in my dream) in a book.

 

my experiences with wicca were mostly positive. i learned a lot about energy work. and the excercises they did remind me a little bit of the zanh zhuang chi kung. and the healing ceremonies were similar to some of the chi kung practices.

wiccan energy work led me to chi kung some years later...

 

a gwyr arwin arbed

 

sirius

 

thanks for the tip. Im starting to figure what its all about. Seems to be some inner alchemy going on.

 

the buddha encouraged skepticism. I think the way to approaching skepticism is to question why and how something works. To immediately discredit any new idea you encounter seems foolish to me.

 

My approach to skepticism has lead me to a great deal of understanding about various things i have encountered.

I have met many people that take the incorrect approach to skepticism. They like to be called southern babtists around here. (bible belt joke )

[mwight]

Silicon,

 

I think above all else Buddha himself stressed logic and rationality to keep us grounded.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

-Buddha

 

All I'm asking for is evidence, my mind is open as long as there is hard evidence or experience to support it. I always said I would believe in God if I experienced something paranormal, well that day came and I did so I had to live up to that. Believing things are valid without evidence to support them is just being silly, and irrational, and I wouldn't call that being "open minded".

 

 

I have never seen or even heard of spells mantra or ritual producing real world effects. Perhaps they can put you in a meditative trance, perhaps it can alter your brainwaves, maybe it can improve your vocal function. Thats about all I see coming from it realistically unless someone offers studies showing it can do more.

 

 

 

 

 

You are not ready to listen to anything being said with an open mind! You do not trust the scriptures! You do not believe the tales about masters of the past who are said to have worked wonders internally and externally using mantras. You do not trust words of a current master who is believed widely to be enlightened by even the likes of Dalai Lama! You do not want to invest some time and check for yourself if mantras have any power. You also want to claim that you are more sensible than generations of so called wise men across different cultures who devoted lifetimes to practice of mantra. And the basis of your argument against all of this is: "I Don't think"

 

So, now that you have decided you want to "perceive" the Supreme Being who is supposedly "imperceptible" through the Physical Faculties of sense and mind, there is really nothing anyone can say to convince you. I would think no one really needs to waste time trying to do that for you are probably meant never to experience the bliss of mantra practice. May be your path is different which makes you argue endlessly in this fashion! One lesson I learnt here is the patience displayed by some members on this board who have patiently tried to reason when the person here has already made up his mind not to be reasonable! If one were sincere, I could take him/her to my teacher, who is a Research Scientist in a top notch organization, and an accomplished master, who can actually make the presence of deities felt through the power of mantras. Or I can suggest a very powerful mantra like Chinnamasta which, if practiced for even a week sincerely and correctly can prove itself beyond any doubt. But what really is the point? There are people right here on this board who, through the merit of mantra practice, have experienced deities like Tara and Vajrakilaya.

 

The fifty-one letters of Sanskrit alphabet are supposed to be the limbs of the Deity of learning Sarasvati. Every specific combination has a specific result and represents a particular deity. Actually the fifty-one letters themselves constitute of a mantra called Matrika, which is practiced as a foundational technique to prepare the channels for opening. At a certain stage, when you are reciting this mantra, you can actually see prana gushing to different areas in your body and the feeling is simply unexplainable. Now, if one can believe that moving hands left and right in Chi Kung can have some effects, why cannot one believe that specific brainwave patterns generated by reciting specific mantras can have similar effects at some level? This is like: I don't believe God...prove to me if he exists. This is cause mantra represents the sound form of the deity and yantra the visual. Go figure out through methods other than argument

[dwai]

Silicon,

 

I think above all else Buddha himself stressed logic and rationality to keep us grounded.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

-Buddha

 

All I'm asking for is evidence, my mind is open as long as there is hard evidence or experience to support it. I always said I would believe in God if I experienced something paranormal, well that day came and I did so I had to live up to that. Believing things are valid without evidence to support them is just being silly, and irrational, and I wouldn't call that being "open minded".

I have never seen or even heard of spells mantra or ritual producing real world effects. Perhaps they can put you in a meditative trance, perhaps it can alter your brainwaves, maybe it can improve your vocal function. Thats about all I see coming from it realistically unless someone offers studies showing it can do more.

 

I have only one thing to add to this already long and pointless debate. You mwight are probably not all-knowing. So, your knowledge or lack of it thereof doesn't condition the veracity of any practice. Sure, you want proof. So the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Find a good master and learn Mantra meditation from him/her. You will get the result that is proportional to the effort you put in.

 

Incidentally, are you familiar with the "Hng" and "Hah" meditation in Taoist practices? You practice with these sounds. We also meditate by vibrating our Dan tien with the sound of gongs. These are props that are a means to an end.

[mwight]

I have only one thing to add to this already long and pointless debate. You mwight are probably not all-knowing. So, your knowledge or lack of it thereof doesn't condition the veracity of any practice. Sure, you want proof. So the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Find a good master and learn Mantra meditation from him/her. You will get the result that is proportional to the effort you put in.

 

Incidentally, are you familiar with the "Hng" and "Hah" meditation in Taoist practices? You practice with these sounds. We also meditate by vibrating our Dan tien with the sound of gongs. These are props that are a means to an end.

 

Is there a mantra master who gained real world power as a result of his training in mantras? I'd be interested in hearing more if so, if not I don't want to waste my time. The only master I have heard about that used voice to display ability was Kiai master Sasaki from Japan. He could kill birds and ring bells from many feet away with the power of his voice. If you have something similar for mantra masters I'm willing to research them.

Edited November 4, 2008 by mwight

[dwai]

Is there a mantra master who gained real world power as a result of his training in mantras? I'd be interested in hearing more if so, if not I don't want to waste my time. The only master I have heard about that used voice to display ability was Kiai master Sasaki from Japan. He could kill birds and ring bells from many feet away with the power of his voice. If you have something similar for mantra masters I'm willing to research them.

 

These powers that you seek are simply side-effects of sincere spiritual practice. They are very cool but are distractions and don't serve any purpose but inflate the ego and delusional in nature.

 

Read Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahamsa Yogananda that will not only give you insight into these powers but also guide you about the real goal of spiritual practices.

[mwight]

So in this book, he describes actual teachers with abilities that came from using mantra exclusively? If so are there any studies on them and are they located in the usa?

 

Abilities are not the end goal, they are merely mile markers.

 

The purpose abilities (in teachers) serve is to establish their authenticity.

 

I do not believe all teachers or all paths are equal. There are a lot more junk and BS teachers and systems than there ever will be true paths. Teachers with abilities are like lighthouses at night.

Edited November 4, 2008 by mwight

[SiliconValley]

There are a lot more junk and BS teachers and systems than there ever will be true paths. Teachers with abilities are like lighthouses at night.

 

Don't you think Gurus people get are what they deserve? A passionate seeker, filled with determination, sincerity and faith never gets entangled in falsehood - be it false guru, false concepts or false teachings! Let's give some credit to the intelligence of Mother Nature

 

Moreover, scriptures and great masters of the past have warned repeatedly that abilities or Siddhis should never be the criteria to determine a true master or his level of realization! These so-called abilities, which require a subject and an object, someone to show and someone else to see, are at best only activities of the mind and mind has nothing to do with a realized master. This is not to reject such abilities altogether, as I vouched for them earlier, but only to mean that such abilities are not necessarily the signs of a true master.

Edited November 4, 2008 by SiliconValley

[mwight]

Don't you think Gurus people get are what they deserve?

 

Unfortunately I do agree with you on this one.

[orb]

These powers that you seek are simply side-effects of sincere spiritual practice. They are very cool but are distractions and don't serve any purpose but inflate the ego and delusional in nature.

 

Read Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahamsa Yogananda that will not only give you insight into these powers but also guide you about the real goal of spiritual practices.

 

I am very interested in these "simple side-effects" that you are talking about and I don't give a rat's ass about their delusional nature either, and personally I think there's more truth to Harry Potter then to that Yogananda book that I read when I was 12 and still couldn't believe a single word in it.

[Stigweard]

So in this book, he describes actual teachers with abilities that came from using mantra exclusively? If so are there any studies on them and are they located in the usa?

 

Abilities are not the end goal, they are merely mile markers.

 

The purpose abilities (in teachers) serve is to establish their authenticity.

 

I do not believe all teachers or all paths are equal. There are a lot more junk and BS teachers and systems than there ever will be true paths. Teachers with abilities are like lighthouses at night.

 

Heya mwight, with respect I have taken a few days to respond to you again so that I can get a clear view of the depths of our communications. From my perspective our differing views lay in two areas:

 

1. The 'goal' of Taoist cultivation

2. The 'proof' of authenticity

 

You have stated that you want to escape from being reborn into this world; that you want to get out of here. And that you are looking for the fastest most direct way to achieve this goal.

 

Whilst I also aspire to spiritual ascendancy, my primarily goal is in the here and now. On a practical level I aspire to achieve the Five Blessings:

 

1. Happiness

2. Longevity

3. Naturally/harmoniously achieved wealth

4. Health

5. Natural Death

 

My view is that the process on becoming a Shien, a Heavenly Immortal, must be founded on the stable bedrock of a wholesome, virtuous life and nurtured by a healthy body, harmonious emotions, and a clear and balanced mind.

 

If we fight against the realities of our life then our emotional and mental equanimity are impaired and the major foundations of our life are destroyed. Destroying along with it our aspirations for spiritual liberation.

 

In terms of 'proofs' you assert that external manifestations of paranormal abilities are the best way to determine someone's level of achievement.

 

I abstain from this belief for a couple of reasons:

 

1. It is frighteningly easy to fool people into believing they are witnessing paranormal abilities.

2. I have witnessed so called masters parading such abilities and yet they exhibit a very low level development in terms of virtuous fulfillment. For example one such master that has been very popular on this forum is also addicted to cigarettes ... this to me is an alarming contradiction.

 

So for myself, because The Five Blessings are my primary goal, I tend to base my discernment of 'proof' upon whether or not a master/teacher has developed these basic achievements.

 

There is, however, an area where I am sure we agree on. That being that, if they are used at all, the use of talismans, chants, invocations etc. are, and should only ever be, a supplement to the real work of internal cultivation.

 

Thank you by the way mwight, in hearing your point of view you have helped my path become clearer.

 

Blessings,

[dwai]

So in this book, he describes actual teachers with abilities that came from using mantra exclusively? If so are there any studies on them and are they located in the usa?

 

Abilities are not the end goal, they are merely mile markers.

 

The purpose abilities (in teachers) serve is to establish their authenticity.

 

I do not believe all teachers or all paths are equal. There are a lot more junk and BS teachers and systems than there ever will be true paths. Teachers with abilities are like lighthouses at night.

 

Odds are that a practitioner of Yoga (and not your everyday Western "What is the latest fad--Yogi trying to tighten up one's buns") will include Mantra japa to his/her daily practice. Mantra is a tool to help silence the mind. How far can you go when you attain stillness? That depends on what you do after you attain the stillness.

 

True -- not all teachers or all paths are equal. Some take longer...some are shorter. Some don't have any negative side-effects, some have. I guess at this point the point of this discussion has become completely pointless (pun intended).

Edited November 5, 2008 by dwai

[mat black]

Moreover, scriptures and great masters of the past have warned repeatedly that abilities or Siddhis should never be the criteria to determine a true master or his level of realization! These so-called abilities, which require a subject and an object, someone to show and someone else to see, are at best only activities of the mind and mind has nothing to do with a realized master. This is not to reject such abilities altogether, as I vouched for them earlier, but only to mean that such abilities are not necessarily the signs of a true master.

 

With ya brother

 

Not withstanding the utility that Siddhis may play in certain circumstances, they alone are not necessarily reliable signs of a true master IMO.

Only just the other day I read Master Hsuan Hua also say to someone who was asking about this subject that abilities are simply one outcome of cultivation - ultimatley no big deal.

 

My own take on the "criteria to determine a true master" is one who:

- is totaly wise

- is full of compassion

- has no anger greed, lust, ignorance

- has seen through and understands everything.

 

Namo Avalokiteshvara

Edited November 6, 2008 by mat black