Energy Healing and Self-Protection

[Stigweard]

 

How about energy healing?

 

Some people have this new age idea that energy healing (or non healing =) can only work if the healer has the patient's permission. However this is not the case. It may be true that in spiritual healing (things like Reiki) permission is required but for chi healing it has been shown that chi kung masters can 'heal' cells in a test tube, and they can also help heal people who are unconscious. They can cause a person to become paralyzed or can kill intense pain by aiming their fingers at the person's neck. My teacher can paralyze an attacker and he doesn't even have to aim his fingers at them. They can also help heal people who aren't aware they are being worked on, however often the person will go out and continue doing whatever caused the problem in the first place and it will return.

 

A person's energy field extend outwards beyond their body and when two people are in proximity there will be some exchange of energy, this is unavoidable. Now, if one of the people has more chi or healthier chi they will radiate more towards the person with less. This then causes the other's chi to overflow a bit, helping them to expel some of their sick chi. Some of this is then picked up by the healthier one and if they are sensitive enough they will feel it. In fact this is a diagnostic tool that can be used by some masters. The overflowed sick chi contains information about it's nature and then the healthier one can feel the effects in their own body. In other words, they feel what the other person feels. This is one reason why people who cultivate more chi will avoid crowds of 'normal' people.

 

Now, if someone who has done some cultivation is frequently around others with serious illness, say cancer, they will not be able to avoid picking up some of this very sick energy and it can cause physical problems and depression even if they can't feel the other's energy in their body. It is best to not expose yourself to many very sick people if you are a chi kung practitioner.

 

Starjumper7

 

 

 

Now, if someone who has done some cultivation is frequently around others with serious illness, say cancer, they will not be able to avoid picking up some of this very sick energy and it can cause physical problems and depression even if they can't feel the other's energy in their body. It is best to not expose yourself to many very sick people if you are a chi kung practitioner.

 

True enough ... there are ways to avoid this however.

 

 

I've heard of that. I know a Bagua master who says he stops the sick chi when it gets half way up his fore arm. My chi kung teacher, who is an awesome healer, said it takes three days to get rid of the sick chi and I believe he can feel it in himself because he is hypersensitive. I find it difficult to believe that people can enter another's energy field and not get some.

 

Which is why you shouldn't try and transmit healing/energy until you are well accomplished. It can cause great trouble for yourself and the person you are trying to help.

 

 

You can program your aura or energy bubble/sheild to block out any negative energy and only let it recieve good energy!

 

Yes you can but this is an artificial way of doing it and is limited to your capacity of intent. For instance ... define 'good'. If you declare that only 'good' energy can influence you then your command is limited to your own perception of 'good'.

 

Also, even though you may have declared such an intent, your own negativity within your mind can still open the door to allow unwholesome energy in.

 

 

Please share about the way you are referring to.

 

Master Ni, Hua-Ching provides a simple protection (see below) in "The Gentle Path of Spiritual Progress".

 

 

"In the room where you treat patients or accept visitors, there should also be a spiritual altar with the following ten Chinese characters hung high on the wall." Ni, Hua Ching.

 

 

 

However, in my humble opinion, the greatest shield a sage can have is the fullness of their own virtuous accomplishment. Then...

 

"The mighty horns of the rhinoceros,

the powerful claws of the tiger,

the sharp blades of weapons,

find nowhere to pierce him."

 

These are not just idealistic words, the truth of their energy manifestation is a living reality.

[Franklin]

i have learned a couple of different ways to protect yourself while doing energy healing

 

all the treatment room in the yosan clinic where i did my internship had that invocation on the wall

i also learned a meditation to get rid of any bad energy that you might have picked up while treating people (this was not part of one of the main classes- i think it was a sort of footnote to a qi gong class i took at the school if i remember correctly)

and a way to harmonize the treatment space by drawing the taiji tu (i think in some of master ni's books he also talks about this)

 

one of my good friends who works with the energy of spaces (zahori)- showed me a way to harmonize and energize space as well-

 

other teachers that i had also taught different methods

some were breathing methods and movements of energy that must be kept up during the entire treatment

and another teacher instructed to scrub yourself with salt after treatments- up to the elbow for most treatments and a whole body scrub after an intense treatment or every so often...

and some other miscellaneous methods

 

 

i think it was also discussed about energy exchange between people

but i think this happens all the time- as was stated and not just during treatments

maybe why one of the tenets of cultivation is to choose your associations wisely while on the path

and i think there might be something to it when people say as they cultivate should stay away from crowds

i went through a period of time where it was very hard to be in a crowded space- it was very uncomfortable

 

also my teachers stressed to get permission before treating-

of course you could treat anyway if you liked and it would still work the same

but the idea being that without permission it is sort of an intrusive act (you were not invited)

 

just some thoughts..

franklin

[VCraigP]

I once asked my Qigong master about this subject.

 

"Master Wu, I have heard that there are various ways one can prepare oneself for dealing with sick energy. Isn't it true that we need to protect ourselves from sick qi somehow?"

 

His simple answer was "As soon as you think like that your spirit is already lost."

 

This was a profound statement and made very emphatically as if to say "get that garbage out of your head".

 

In light of this discussion its seems extraordinarily simple, if not simple minded.

 

In my experience and in my taoist education there are at least two schools of thought on this subject.

 

I will try to explain to the best of my understanding what was explained to me.

 

This was explained clearly by Master Wu.

 

In the Alchemical schools there is a prohibition against healing until one has developed for many years (12 or more) This is in order to develop ones internal Qi force so as not to become depleted.

 

In the Shamanic schools one can do energy healing very soon. One uses external Qi to do healing. It is a channelling of the life force which avoids use of your own internal Qi.

 

I realize the above is a gross oversimplification, but it resonates with me. I have practiced Qi healing and had it practiced on me by fellow students. I have not wandered around in cancer wards to cite an extreme example, so I cannot attest to how such might affect me.

 

It seems to me however that if you go around with the belief that as a Qigong practitioner that you will be more permeable to negative influence, then you definitely will be.

 

I can relate to the idea of avoiding the vibes of big crowds and how draining that can be. I remember in my early twenties sometimes getting into a state where it was almost painful to be around a lot of people.

 

Choosing your associations wisely is also very important (does online association count )

Can these be overcome?

 

My teacher's response to this would probably be only "more cultivation".

 

Craig

[Ian]

My teacher works full-time as a healer when not teaching. And when I say full-time, that's up to thirty half hour sessions a day, for up to seven days a week.

 

The first time I met him in 2003 I asked him "What stops you getting the sick energy of your clients?"

 

He gave a big grin and said "Nothing at all! But it helps not to be afraid."

 

For us he says to treat no more than one person a day and to spend the same amount of time working on solo practice afterwards. After about 10,000 hours practice we can think about working as healers...

 

He says it's pointless trying to protect yourself from crowds, as this will make you closed and tense. Far better just to work on yourself and not think about it.

 

 

 

On the other hand I've seen another teacher show that closing down your own field is very simple. Just imagine you're 13 and you're on a late night train full of drunks and you don't want to be noticed.

 

Acting like that will reduce your energetic field down to very close to your body. I've seen it demonstrated with dowsing rods.

[Spiritual_Aspirant]

Try Pranic Healing. It covers all your concerns. www.pranichealing.com

[Jedi777]

Try Pranic Healing. It covers all your concerns. www.pranichealing.com

I agree Pranic healing covers all of this and far more!!!

[松永道]

...the greatest shield a sage can have is the fullness of their own virtuous accomplishment. Then...

 

"The mighty horns of the rhinoceros,

the powerful claws of the tiger,

the sharp blades of weapons,

find nowhere to pierce him."

 

These are not just idealistic words, the truth of their energy manifestation is a living reality.

 

Good conclusion.

 

When I first starting doing Qigong, I did healing stuff right away because I discovered I could and no-one told me I shouldn't. I loved the high I could give folks and started doing it frequently. On one trip to visit many friends in New York I did it all day long for days in a row. From the first experience I noticed giving a non-contact qi massage made me very thirsty and a bit tired, but spiritually energized. Many in a row, day after day, and I started getting sick. Finally, one day I decided to work on a friend who I suspected had some pretty gnarly qi issues and paid the price for it.

 

After that I stopped doing qi massages and months later took a Swedish massage. But eventually I started running into the same run down, sickness issues again. So I asked around, "how can I protect myself?" One teacher told me to visualize a auric shield. Another said take epsom salt baths. So many solutions, but none of them really sat well.

 

Finally, I went to our dean of the Chinese medicine department at the time, Heiner Fruehauf, and explained my predicament. To paraphrase he said, "a cow poops on the earth and the next day a flower grows out." Waste, illness, evil Qi is in the eye of the beholder. This is the beauty of Qi's true meaning. Everything is Qi. All Qi in different forms and frequencies. And it's all capable of transformation. In fact, Qi never stops transforming. So what's evil Qi? Is it shit or fertilizer?

 

"Master Wu, I have heard that there are various ways one can prepare oneself for dealing with sick energy. Isn't it true that we need to protect ourselves from sick qi somehow?"

 

His simple answer was "As soon as you think like that your spirit is already lost."

 

This was a profound statement and made very emphatically as if to say "get that garbage out of your head".

 

[Franklin]

just to point out

 

most of the "protection" stuff i learned was not about putting a shield up and closing off

instead most of it was about cleaning your body and harmonizing your own energy....

sort of like some of the self healing qi gongs where you purge bad energy....

 

i did learn some practices that would also protect or shield

 

 

also just to point out that sometimes protection is a valid aspect of energy stuff

i had one teacher describe certain things that must be done before "astral travel"

protections that must be put in place before you leave so that when you come back you can and be the only thing back

and also some summoning rituals (taoist)- that can be fatal because of the power of what is summoned

 

my opinion thus far is yes it is all qi

just like death will just be a qi transformation

but i still like to wear my seat belt when i drive my car...

 

 

 

 

 

------------------------

 

 

so do you guys have any thoughts on the role of sickness and disease-

as a teacher

or as the result of your karma or past deeds

 

and if so how do you see the role of the healer as dealing with those aspects?

just curious

 

 

franklin

[Taomeow]

 

This was explained clearly by Master Wu.

 

In the Alchemical schools there is a prohibition against healing until one has developed for many years (12 or more) This is in order to develop ones internal Qi force so as not to become depleted.

 

In the Shamanic schools one can do energy healing very soon. One uses external Qi to do healing. It is a channelling of the life force which avoids use of your own internal Qi.

 

I realize the above is a gross oversimplification, but it resonates with me.

 

That's correct. Here's some additional considerations:

an alchemical healer must be, first and foremost, absolutely healthy herself -- in mind, body, spirit -- and in touch with the patient spiritually but not emotionally entangled in his illness. Which is why few will treat a family member (unless it's something minor) -- the very intensity of the emotional involvement will throw off and perhaps thwart the flow of healing qi; an alchemical healer whose heart is not impartial to the outcome can't heal. Ironic but true: the most accomplished alchemical healer can heal thirty strangers every day but fail with a loved one. This refers to more than just physical ailments. I know a student of a top level martial/qigong master, someone who's been practicing for over seventy years and is presently, in his advanced age, stronger than he'd ever been. His wife of fifty years divorced him recently, and all his qi power was powerless to heal his own family problems. (Which is why no master must be judged on the basis of personal troubles -- these are in a class of their own. Confucius was the most celebrated master of familial harmony in all of humanity's history -- yet his own wife left him too!)

 

A shamanic healer can become a healer instantly, with no training whatsoever. Example: John of God, whom I met last year. When he was around 19 (I think), one day he fainted, then entered a trance, was "out" for 48 hours, and when he "came back" the villagers surprised and shocked him by telling him that while he was in a trance he healed a whole bunch of sick people. To this day, after forty+ years of world famous "career" as a healer, with thousands of "miracles" reported and documented, he asserts that he himself has never healed anyone, and in fact I did see him as two different people -- the ordinary man he is when he is just himself, and the conduit for spirits he becomes when he's doing his healing work via multiple spirit entities (not a peep about "life force" though, his beliefs are Catholic and so he refers to spirits, saints, and god... "life force" is not necessarily interested in our beliefs, which is funny if you think of it... If we shun the traditional designations of gods, spirits, demons, angels, etc., and think of it as just impersonal "life force" yet the part of it that does the job thinks of itself as the spirit of Ignatius Loyola -- one of those who named themselves to John of God and do his healing work for him -- who are we to argue with what it chooses to be at a given moment, to a given man or woman? -- it knows better what it is or isn't than our beliefs do...)

[Taomeow]

But I've digressed from the topic of self-protection.

 

Question:

 

does it help you not catch a cold if you don't believe in viruses?

 

Did people never catch colds before viruses were "discovered?"

 

Was the Black Plague (a viral disease) that wiped out 3/4 of Europe's population brought about by "fear of the virus?"

 

How is a spiritual attack different from a viral one? If being unafraid and not thinking of "these things" is the remedy, why isn't it helping? How is a virus above spirit, stronger than "energy"? How is believing or not believing, fearing or not fearing a virus going to make no dent in one's contracting or not contracting a viral disease, yet believing or not believing, fearing or not fearing a malevolent energetic/spirit intervention is supposed to be what makes or breaks its power?..

[gossamer]

Let me have a shot at this...............

 

"Negative magic", or whatever term that one wants to use, is affected by a lot of variables.

 

In my case, the complete nut case that's been after me for years now.......

 

If he REALLY KNEW real magic, I'd simply be DEAD, but I'm not dead, now am I?

 

But he is a "tech wiz", and we are now on our 9th (NINTH) computer. He KNOWS THAT.

 

He's PRACTICED *THAT*

 

Over and over again.

 

Has my attitude of KNOWING that this guy is a dumbass magically,

affected the outcome of his (supposed) magic?

 

Yes, real magic takes LONG AND HARD WORK, and he spends his days and nights mostly spamming porn here on the net, when does he ever find the time to practice, practice, practice, any real magic??

 

He DOESN'T spend any time doing this (or very little time).

 

But, he HAS spent literally YEARS working with, and hacking with, computers.

 

He's practiced, practiced, practiced, with hacking his "enemies".

 

Who were almost ALL self made. By the way.

 

And one last thing David, Kokopelli is spelled "Kokopelli", and he was basically a rain and storm god to the Ancient Ones (the Publeos Ancestors).

 

I think that you need to find a dictionary, and STUDY THAT. lol

 

So, magic is first determined by the skill of the practitioner.

 

As is anything really worth learning.

 

The ability to see your enemy as a complete dumbass, definately HELPS.

 

A sense of humor, a real part of the Dao!

 

 

Peace to all, gossamer

 

 

 

About Kokopelli from Wikipedia:

 

 

"Kokopelli is a fertility deity, usually depicted as a humpbacked flute player (often with a huge phallus and feathers or antenna-like protrusions on his head), who has been venerated by some Native American cultures in the Southwestern United States. Like most fertility deities, Kokopelli presides over both childbirth and agriculture. He is also a trickster god and represents the spirit of music.[1]

 

Among the Hopi, Kokopelli carries unborn children on his back and distributes them to women (for this reason, young girls often fear him). He often takes part in rituals relating to marriage, and Kokopelli himself is sometimes depicted with a consort, a woman called Kokopelmana by the Hohokam and Hopi.[2]

 

Kokopelli also presides over the reproduction of game animals, and for this reason, he is often depicted with animal companions such as rams and deer. Other common creatures associated with him include sun-bathing animals such as snakes, or water-loving animals like lizards and insects. Because of this, some scholars believe that Kokopelli's flute is actually a blowgun (or started out as one). Alternatively, the "flute" may actually be a pipe for smoking tobacco in a sacred ceremony, or some other device entirely.

 

In his domain over agriculture, Kokopelli's fluteplaying chases away the Winter and brings about Spring. Many tribes, such as the Zuni, also associate Kokopelli with the rains.[3] He frequently appears with Paiyatamu, another flautist, in depictions of maize-grinding ceremonies. Some tribes say he carries seeds and babies on his back.[3][4]

 

In recent years, the emasculated version of Kokopelli has been adopted as a broader symbol of the Southwestern United States as a whole. His image adorns countless items such as T-shirts, ball caps, and keychains.[5] A bicycle trail between Grand Junction, Colorado, and Moab, Utah, is now known as the Kokopelli Trail."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I've digressed from the topic of self-protection.

 

Question:

 

does it help you not catch a cold if you don't believe in viruses?

 

Did people never catch colds before viruses were "discovered?"

 

Was the Black Plague (a viral disease) that wiped out 3/4 of Europe's population brought about by "fear of the virus?"

 

How is a spiritual attack different from a viral one? If being unafraid and not thinking of "these things" is the remedy, why isn't it helping? How is a virus above spirit, stronger than "energy"? How is believing or not believing, fearing or not fearing a virus going to make no dent in one's contracting or not contracting a viral disease, yet believing or not believing, fearing or not fearing a malevolent energetic/spirit intervention is supposed to be what makes or breaks its power?..

Edited October 29, 2008 by gossamer

[Taomeow]

Gossamer,

 

agreed on magic being a skill (art, craft, science, general work with "energies of the world" by methods not in common everyday circulation) that requires much practice -- more than most other skills. Or rather, one that utilizes all other skills in a synthesis of a particular type, known as "the whole is not equal to the constituent parts," at a level beyond a simple sum of its constituent parts. One level beyond, or many levels beyond, depending on the skill of the practitioner.

 

Now as for your computer nemesis guy --

you know him and I don't, so you are perhaps right that his "failure" is a result of sheer ineptitude, but this is not always the case with magic which didn't go to the extreme of killing the magician's enemy. Quite the opposite is true: a highly skilled and knowledgeable jun zi will never kill the enemy, because the price to pay (and there's always a price to pay) is seldom a bargain, and he or she will keep this in mind and try to follow the golden rule of sorcery -- punishment commensurate with crime. (It can be slightly, but not considerably, greater than the crime with no karmic complications, but if it is considerably greater, the price skyrockets.) However, a skilled sorcerer might cause the adversary to do something dumb -- a suicidal move in fact -- and kill without killing. If I were to destroy an enemy, I would never do it by harming him or her directly. Instead, I would ask the gods to reveal his true nature. Once it is revealed, chances are people who see him for what he is will do the rest of the good work. So I never ask the gods to destroy an enemy; all I ask it, expose him. No karma for me, no escape for him. Good stuff.

[fiveelementtao]

I think this in an extremely interesting topic. One of the teachers I worked with was a master yogi, psychotherapist and traditional healer. He works with alot of different diseases and he has had tremendous success with cancer. He treats people with a combination of diet and psychological treatment. with a heavy emphasis on diet. For those interested, I suggest looking up the theories of Antoine Beauchamp.

To put it succinctly: Our modern view of illness is a product of the theories of Louis Pastuer which says that illness is a product of foreign "contaminants" which invade and infect our bodies and cause illness. So, his theory was that if you attack the foreign contaminants (symptoms), you will kill the disease. However as we can see, our modern approach of attacking symptoms rarely addresses the causes of imbalance. It often only temporarily relieves the symptoms. There was another contemporary of Pastuer named Antoine Beauchamp. Pasteur actually stole Beauchamp's work and substituted it as his own, but he mistakenly interpreted the results. Beauchamp concluded that illness is a result of the body being toxic and therefore creating a suitable environment for things like bacteria to grow. In his mind, he felt that if you kept the body clean and free of toxins, then bacteria has nothing to feed on. In the ensuing battle among the intellects of the day, Pastuer won out which is why modern western medicine works on the invader theory rather than the environment theory.

This mirrors the western religious idea of that day which says that the Devil (an outside force) tempts us away from God. Rather than the idea that we delude ourselves from within and attract negativity to us.

 

When a person comes to my teacher with cancer, he tells them that cancer is merely a symptom of toxicity in the body. It is actually a sign of a healthy, functioning immune system. He teaches that cancer is simply the natural effect of the body expelling excess toxins and waste. He will put them on strict regimen of raw vegetables and juicing and herbs and explore any emotional issues that may be helping to hinder the body's healing abilites. He teaches that if you reverse the toxicity, the cancer will dissappear. He has had incredible success with "fatal cases" that had been told they had little or no time left to live.

 

He teaches that, many of the symptoms of diseases are a result of toxins backing up in the body and in this condition, the organs responsible for excreting toxins are overloaded and they shut down, which results in debilitating symptoms. We feel sick, but the imbalance has been going on for a long time before we notice it.

 

There was also a man named Gunther Enderlein who took Beauchamp's theories even farther, he was able to show in his experiments that the natural helpful biological agents within the body can morph from helpful agents into disease causing agents depending on the acidity of the body. He proposed that an acidic environment encouraged the transformation of helpful microbes into bacteria then into fungi then into viruses. So, from this perspective disease comes from within.

 

So, for me, the idea that someone else can contaminate me with their sick energy only works if I believe that idea. If I am clean within, there is no suitable environment for any sickness to take hold and grow within me.

recent research has well documented that indulging in negative emotions and stress greatly hinders the body's ability to heal. Whereas, working through emotional issues and meditating on "good" feelings can greatly increase the body's ability to heal.

 

So, back to the question: The only way I can catch a cold is if my body has enough food for it to feed on. If I keep my mind and body healthy, (Depending on which theory you believe) then viruses will have no food and cannot take hold. If I believe Enderlein, then if I do get a virus, I actually created it inside of me and I am fully responsible for it to begin with.

 

Case in point: has anyone ever heard about certain medications which include "viral infections" as a side effect? If viruses come from outside, then how can taking a medication cause a "viral infection"? To me it seems simple, the medication is toxic and creates a suitable environment for the "viral infection" to grow from within me...

 

here is a good resource page

http://www.unhinderedliving.com/germtheory.html

[gossamer]

Dear Taomeow,

 

Take it from somebody who actually KNOWS HIM.

 

He's a dumbass. Plain and simple.

 

I'm a (philosophical) Daoist, and I read *NOTHING* about "karma" in the Dao de Jing.

 

Something so important as "karma", Laozi would have spoken about.

 

HE DID NOT. Not ONE WORD about "karma" in the DDJ.

 

"Karma" is for Buddhists and Hindus, thank you very much.

 

I am neither.

 

Peace, gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gossamer,

 

agreed on magic being a skill (art, craft, science, general work with "energies of the world" by methods not in common everyday circulation) that requires much practice -- more than most other skills. Or rather, one that utilizes all other skills in a synthesis of a particular type, known as "the whole is not equal to the constituent parts," at a level beyond a simple sum of its constituent parts. One level beyond, or many levels beyond, depending on the skill of the practitioner.

 

Now as for your computer nemesis guy --

you know him and I don't, so you are perhaps right that his "failure" is a result of sheer ineptitude, but this is not always the case with magic which didn't go to the extreme of killing the magician's enemy. Quite the opposite is true: a highly skilled and knowledgeable jun zi will never kill the enemy, because the price to pay (and there's always a price to pay) is seldom a bargain, and he or she will keep this in mind and try to follow the golden rule of sorcery -- punishment commensurate with crime. (It can be slightly, but not considerably, greater than the crime with no karmic complications, but if it is considerably greater, the price skyrockets.) However, a skilled sorcerer might cause the adversary to do something dumb -- a suicidal move in fact -- and kill without killing. If I were to destroy an enemy, I would never do it by harming him or her directly. Instead, I would ask the gods to reveal his true nature. Once it is revealed, chances are people who see him for what he is will do the rest of the good work. So I never ask the gods to destroy an enemy; all I ask it, expose him. No karma for me, no escape for him. Good stuff.

Edited October 29, 2008 by gossamer

[宁]

 

To paraphrase he said, "a cow poops on the earth and the next day a flower grows out." Waste, illness, evil Qi is in the eye of the beholder. This is the beauty of Qi's true meaning. Everything is Qi. All Qi in different forms and frequencies. And it's all capable of transformation. In fact, Qi never stops transforming. So what's evil Qi? Is it shit or fertilizer?

 

 

If someone drops daily a ton or two of fertilizer on your lawn - I would have said you instead of lawn, but it sounds less agressive - would it still be a great oportunity?

If someone would shoot fertilizer from a fertilizer-cannon, at your lawn, and your house, everyday, would it still be resolved by philosophy?

 

It happens very often in everyday life.

It can reap your energy field apart, whether you belive in it or not.

At least that's how life in a big city can be...

 

Changing Qi from one frequency to another, I don't think it's hard, but from my experience, you can do it a little amount at a time, and in time - long time - as your power of "digesting" grows, you can face piles of crap with the utter smile of the Fo.

 

 

There's another issue, which Craig's teacher spoke about. If one has "spirit", every type of Qi can be nurturing. But, again, this path is also long and arduous.

For me, I try both of them, when I have the time. I find the transforming path more deep and more nurturing. The "spirited" path is very good to use at an instance, when you have little time to think about Qi or stuff.

It's an attitude, you build it by exercise... it also does not come easy.

 

L

Edited October 29, 2008 by Little1

[gossamer]

"would it still be resolved by philosophy?"

 

 

 

 

All of this has given me what I refer to as PTSD.

 

Post traumatic stress disorder.

 

 

BUT...................that's a far cry from being DEAD.

 

And I absolutely am determined to HEAL from all of this.

 

Will "philosophy" heal it?

 

NO.

 

But I know some other things that HELP.

 

And I'm slowly trying to learn Qigong.

 

I came to this board originally for HELP.

 

I'm not ashamed to ask.

 

That's about all that I know to say.

 

I hope that that's plain enough.

 

Peace, gossamer

[Taomeow]

5elements,

 

thanks for your take. (Been enjoying your earlier posts, by the way.)

 

I am quite familiar with this view and more than familiar with practical applications.

 

And know from extensive experience that, while nothing about your statements is "not true," nothing is "this simple" either, alas.

 

To illustrate what I mean:

 

most Native Americans were overwhelmingly environmentally clean and nontoxic for thousands of years before the continent was "discovered" by the white man --

and more of them proceeded to die of viral diseases brought by the white man than from direct assault. How come?..

 

We do indeed have viruses that live inside and get active when our immunity is weakened. This doesn't mean none exist outside and invade us on occasion. In TCM, they fall under the category of "pernicious influences." "Pernicious influences" can be "internal" or "external." In TCM, they acknowledge the primary importance of internal defenses (especially "protective qi" of which our immune system is part, but which can't be reduced to the "immune system" -- "protective qi" is comprised of a lot more, immunity and social status and psychological factors and diet and spiritual goals or their absence, and so on.) They also acknowledge the existence of "external pernicious influences" of such power and magnitude that no internal defenses are sufficient to counteract them, at least in a mere mortal. An atom bomb is an example. Some esoteric authorities assert it can disrupt even the immortal spirit, not just the mortal body.

 

Now take a "weaponized" virus, an important factor, according to some alternative historians, in what's going on with people's health today. Do we breed them inside our bodies or... ?..

 

Now take the "environmental" theory. Western medicine didn't ignore it; what is done to the environment is part of the business, because keeping everybody polluted is very lucrative. Pasteur or not, they know it very well. Pollution has global governmental blessings not because all our planet's governments are ignorant. Nah. Because they are very well-informed.

 

Now take Time. If we subscribe to the taoist view of time being nonlinear, cyclical, loopy, turnable and returnable, it becomes a matter of "when" disease-causing viruses were introduced. Are they weapons to begin with? even the ones we think of as "natural?" In taoist sorcery, one can punish ancestral spirits, no less, of people long dead -- and all their offspring seven generations into the future. What happened to all the shamans of the dead nations? Did they just turn belly up and give up? I seriously doubt it...

 

So a health problem, whether environmental or pathogenic or both, is rather likely to be neither. Is rather likely to be karmic. And a karmic disease is not going to respond to any diets. Unless suffering through the illness and the diet is exactly the intervention that is needed to disperse some of it. And that's why some will benefit, but not all, this I have seen with my own eyes... Detox, juices, energy healers, whatever -- it has to have been meant to be or else it doesn't help. Nothing helps, or everything helps, depending on the individual. I've read of a guy who cured himself of terminal lung cancer with a bottle of scotch consumed daily. The case was reported at an oncologists' conference and one of the MDs, desperate to understand how it could possibly happen, asked, "does anybody know WHICH BRAND of scotch he was drinking?.." That's western thinking for you. There's got to have been a "simple answer," an "active ingredient,' something, anything...

 

...but the truth is, the mystery is always one step ahead of the "de-mystifiers."

[gossamer]

Dear Taomeow,

 

You know, I know that it's currently popular for most "Taoist's" or "Daoist's" to believe in "KARMA".

 

Show me this in ANY (reliable) translation of the Dao de Jing.

 

Thanks.

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited October 29, 2008 by gossamer

[Stigweard]

Dear Taomeow,

 

You know, I know that it's currently popular for most "Taoist's" or "Daoist's" to believe in "KARMA".

 

Show me this in ANY (reliable) translation of the Dao de Jing.

 

Thanks.

 

Peace, gossamer

 

I agree that Karma as such is not a Taoist concept as such ... however we do have The Law of Universal Energy Response which is merely a recognition of the cyclic nature of life. That every action we take has a ripple effect within the cosmos and those ripples will return to us in perfect synchrony to the nature of the action that caused them.

 

Ch 25

 

Being Great, it extends itself without limit.

Extending itself without limit, it is far-reaching.

Being far-reaching, it ultimately reverts to itself,

returning to its self-sufficient origin.

Indeed, it had never really left itself!

 

Ch 29

 

The things of the world are constantly changing.

There is a time for things to move ahead,

and a following time for things to retreat;

a time to withdraw internally,

and a following time to expand externally;

a time to grow luxuriantly,

and a following time to decay;

a time to rise up,

and a following time to sink down low.

 

Practicing push hands in Taiji teaches you the truth of this.

[gossamer]

Dear Stigwerd,

 

It's good to hear from you again.

 

I would differentiate between KARMA and "The Law of Universal Energy Response".

 

Perhaps that's 'splitting hairs' (as the old saying goes) but if so, so be it.

 

KARMA is (supposedly) "the Law" of an endless series of births, deaths, and rebirths.

 

This is Buddhist and Hindu religion, to it's very CORE.

 

Like you, I'm NOT a Hindu, or a Buddhist, but one trying to live Dao.

 

 

Peace to you, gossamer

Edited October 29, 2008 by gossamer

[fiveelementtao]

5elements,

 

thanks for your take. (Been enjoying your earlier posts, by the way.)

 

I am quite familiar with this view and more than familiar with practical applications.

 

And know from extensive experience that, while nothing about your statements is "not true," nothing is "this simple" either, alas.

 

To illustrate what I mean:

 

most Native Americans were overwhelmingly environmentally clean and nontoxic for thousands of years before the continent was "discovered" by the white man --

and more of them proceeded to die of viral diseases brought by the white man than from direct assault. How come?..

 

We do indeed have viruses that live inside and get active when our immunity is weakened. This doesn't mean none exist outside and invade us on occasion. In TCM, they fall under the category of "pernicious influences." "Pernicious influences" can be "internal" or "external." In TCM, they acknowledge the primary importance of internal defenses (especially "protective qi" of which our immune system is part, but which can't be reduced to the "immune system" -- "protective qi" is comprised of a lot more, immunity and social status and psychological factors and diet and spiritual goals or their absence, and so on.) They also acknowledge the existence of "external pernicious influences" of such power and magnitude that no internal defenses are sufficient to counteract them, at least in a mere mortal. An atom bomb is an example. Some esoteric authorities assert it can disrupt even the immortal spirit, not just the mortal body.

 

Now take a "weaponized" virus, an important factor, according to some alternative historians, in what's going on with people's health today. Do we breed them inside our bodies or... ?..

 

Now take the "environmental" theory. Western medicine didn't ignore it; what is done to the environment is part of the business, because keeping everybody polluted is very lucrative. Pasteur or not, they know it very well. Pollution has global governmental blessings not because all our planet's governments are ignorant. Nah. Because they are very well-informed.

 

Now take Time. If we subscribe to the taoist view of time being nonlinear, cyclical, loopy, turnable and returnable, it becomes a matter of "when" disease-causing viruses were introduced. Are they weapons to begin with? even the ones we think of as "natural?" In taoist sorcery, one can punish ancestral spirits, no less, of people long dead -- and all their offspring seven generations into the future. What happened to all the shamans of the dead nations? Did they just turn belly up and give up? I seriously doubt it...

 

So a health problem, whether environmental or pathogenic or both, is rather likely to be neither. Is rather likely to be karmic. And a karmic disease is not going to respond to any diets. Unless suffering through the illness and the diet is exactly the intervention that is needed to disperse some of it. And that's why some will benefit, but not all, this I have seen with my own eyes... Detox, juices, energy healers, whatever -- it has to have been meant to be or else it doesn't help. Nothing helps, or everything helps, depending on the individual. I've read of a guy who cured himself of terminal lung cancer with a bottle of scotch consumed daily. The case was reported at an oncologists' conference and one of the MDs, desperate to understand how it could possibly happen, asked, "does anybody know WHICH BRAND of scotch he was drinking?.." That's western thinking for you. There's got to have been a "simple answer," an "active ingredient,' something, anything...

 

...but the truth is, the mystery is always one step ahead of the "de-mystifiers."

You make some good points, Taomeow...

I generally agree with them. In my tao training, I was taught that everything in my external environment is a product of my internal environment. So, in terms of karma and illness.. I would agree with your assertions. My point about the medical viewpoint was that even our internal bodily health is a result of our internal spiritual environment. For me, this gives me hope because if I become sick, instead of feeling like a victim to an outside virus, I can say, "oh, here's an opportunity to grow through a spiritual issue." If I choose to use diet or meditation, the end result is I am taking responsibility. I would disagree about diet being absolutely useless in karmic cases, because, changing diet can reflect a desire to take responsibility to balance the internal. This may be the stimulus to burn off the spiritual attachments that resulted in the karma to begin with. It is an external symbol that the spirit can use.. just like the guy who used alcohol to cure himself. Scotch wouldn't work for me because I have karmic attachments to alcohol in my family... Diet would probably work for me in that instance..

 

I was taught that there are two ways to practice Tao. One is to see ourselves as finite beings manipulating energy from outside of us. and the other is to see all of the entire universe as being within us. I think whichever way we have chosen will color our thinking about these kinds of issues. For those who have chosen the first way. There is only "one" reality. For me, there are many. and the state of my life reflects the issues I need to grow through.. whether that be illness or career or money etc...

[Taomeow]

5eltao,

 

Well, yes, I didn't mean diet wasn't important... I'm just a bit jaded (through no fault of yours) walking through all those competing "one diet fits all" and "one nutritional idea (e.g., PH) fits all" playgrounds (all of them different, mind you -- vegan playgrounds, paleo/hunter-gatherer playgrounds, Atkins, macrobiotic, fruitarian, raw foodist, Okinawan, the Zone, ketogenic, alkalizing, Mediterranean, sattvic... oh brother... I know them all, dozens upon dozens of them, and each and every one has zealots who are sure that theirs is THE one! It's like religions, exactly like religions... ) Take raw food... my mother is put out of commission for a month if she eats anything raw, and has been like that for most of her life. Long as she doesn't, she's fine. A more unusual situation than your familial clash with alcohol, but no different in any way. (In TCM, few food cures are raw, but in taoist ritual, raw foods are used preferentially, since they are considered the kind of yin/cold foods suitable for the ghosts.)

 

About two ways to practice tao... I dunno, I don't think there's a fundamental difference between those who practice "above" and those who practice "below," "inside" or "outside." As above, so below, as inside, so outside... you can go either way, neither way is wrong if you know what you're doing. I like to combine both...

 

I don't have a clue what "one reality" as opposed to "many" means though. I don't see the opposition. Many are one and one is many, and many aren't in any way inferior to one, nor superior... "to and fro goes the Way."

 

Gossamer,

 

Tao Te Ching is not "all" of taoism. The concept of "karma" is something I have to phase in in my practice, which is a taoist practice. I can't possibly worry about what "philosophical" taoists think about it, because I'm not one of them. I'm a pragmatist. If you undertake studying the I Ching, you will know what karma means in taoism -- no, the term they use is not this one, moreover, it's not any term at all, it's a pattern... If you dedicate yourself to studying the pattern, maybe you will see what I see -- and it won't turn you into a Buddhist or Hindu, anymore than it did me...

[gossamer]

Taomeow,

 

You know what REALLY pisses me off?

 

I really don't care if someone "believes" in "karma" or not, as long as they DON'T force their belief(s) off on me.

 

But what REALLY pisses me off is that this nut case is here on this Forum now too.

 

He doesn't care one wit about the Dao.

 

He's ONLY here to bother me.

 

You and I long ago, used to be on Derek Lin's Forum together too.

 

I've used the I Ching ('Yi Jing') for YEARS now.

 

Here's the BEST of those that I have:

 

 

 

'The Everyday I Ching', by Sarah Denig.

 

This is the one that I originally learned the I Ching from.

 

 

 

My oldest I Ching, is 'The I Ching, or Book of Changes', by Richard Wilhelm, and Cary F. Baynes.

 

And I got: 'I Ching, The Classic Chinese Oracle of Change (The First Complete Translation With Concordance)':

 

Translated by Rudolf Ritsema, and Stephen Karcher.

 

And lastly, 'The Complete I Ching: The Definitive Translation', by the Taoist Master Alfred Huang.

 

 

Yes, Daoism is more then just the Dao de Jing. We agree on that.

 

Back to the previous subect..........

 

You know, he's followed me all over the internet, so there's every reason that he'd join here too.

 

I'm only sorry that I could get him FIRED, ONLY ONCE!

 

Yours in Dao, gossamer

Edited October 30, 2008 by gossamer

[Stigweard]

[gossamer]

Edited October 30, 2008 by gossamer