Meridians and Invertebrates

[Xienkula1]

Ok, this is a weird concept but Ive been mulling it over since there are apparently conserved anatomical structures and gene sequences(hox genes (dorsal, ventral body axis), proteins, immune system, nervous system, sensory systems) between invertebrates (clams, insects, worms etc.) and humans, dogs, cats, elephants(mammals) all apparently have meridians, do other chordates such as tunicates? would it be too far out to imagine that the meridian system is conserved in some form in invertebrates such as a lobster or is it a characteristic of mammals only? Since they have different but homologous internal organs in function to mammals (nephrispores, heart, tamalle(liver), digestive tract etc), would they also have a meridian system running through their internal organs, would they have nadis? and if so how would you go about mapping them? What would they look like/feel like, how could you identify or infer them from vascular or nervous system, or intersects thereof? Do individual cells have micro-meridian systems? LOL a classical biologists nightmare, I know, but Im very curious. How were the meridians first concieved of in the first place? How were they mapped on other mammals?

 

Although doing acupuncture on a lobster might not be the most practical perhaps this is just a horrid brainfart.

Edited October 30, 2008 by Xienkula1

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Ok, this is a weird concept but Ive been mulling it over since there are apparently conserved anatomical structures and gene sequences(hox genes (dorsal, ventral body axis), proteins, immune system, nervous system, sensory systems) between invertebrates (clams, insects, worms etc.) and humans, dogs, cats, elephants(mammals) all apparently have meridians, do other chordates such as tunicates? would it be too far out to imagine that the meridian system is conserved in some form in invertebrates such as a lobster or is it a characteristic of mammals only? Since they have different but homologous internal organs in function to mammals (nephrispores, heart, tamalle(liver), digestive tract etc), would they also have a meridian system running through their internal organs, would they have nadis? and if so how would you go about mapping them? What would they look like/feel like, how could you identify or infer them from vascular or nervous system, or intersects thereof? Do individual cells have micro-meridian systems? LOL a classical biologists nightmare, I know, but Im very curious. How were the meridians first concieved of in the first place? How were they mapped on other mammals?

 

Although doing acupuncture on a lobster might not be the most practical perhaps this is just a horrid brainfart.

 

I am not an expert on this subject, but I do know that Qi and the meridian system of traditional medicine are at odds with modern (western) science. This article http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm (while outdated as it states) is a good outline of the western biological study of acupuncture. But there may be something to it after all. And I must ask, why would you want to do acupunture on other mammals or a lobster...? What purpose would that serve.

[froggie]

Many electrical acupuncture apparats also have point locators in them, when you hold it to the skin and move it about and you find a meridian point it gives off a sound and lightmeter indicator for 'signal strength', the better the signal strength the more accurate you have located the acupuncture point. i think this could work for animals also. How exactly the pinpointing works i'm not 100% sure, but i think it was electrical resistance (less resistance at points)

 

As far as how the points were originally found long long ago, the story tells simply about people being able to see the energy centers (big and small) with their own eyes, particularly speaking about advanced yogis and so on.

Edited October 31, 2008 by froggie

[Xienkula1]

I am not an expert on this subject, but I do know that Qi and the meridian system of traditional medicine are at odds with modern (western) science. This article http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm (while outdated as it states) is a good outline of the western biological study of acupuncture. But there may be something to it after all. And I must ask, why would you want to do acupunture on other mammals or a lobster...? What purpose would that serve.

 

Well apparently people are doing acupuncture on mammals http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/28/...ain677019.shtml

and India has a tradition of massaging the marmas(analogous to acupoints, nadi intersections) of elephants to improve their health and speed recovery from injury. Even some holistic vetrinarians do acupuncture on dogs and cats to allieviate arthritic pain.

 

The question about lobsters(invertebrates) is more from the perspective of evolutionary biology, if they have a conserved meridian system, how does it relate to the system of a mammal, similarities/differences? This would help us better understand our own meridian system? Or if we could demonstrate a biological effect of acupuncture on specific points on life span of lobsters, this could help proove whether or not it has any validity in treatmen as this would eliminate the variable of placebo, if any demonstrable effect is observed. I doubt if lobsters have any response to placebo....and perhaps in measuring effects on biochemical signal transduction that may be cataylzed with acupuncture in invertebrates may help us to better understand the nature of our own alleged merdians, or observe key fundemental differences or homologies which may shed light on what molecular mechanisms might be involved ? Pure speculation. Lobsters, like salamaders are capable of limb regeneration....is this related to the structure of their meridian system? Or is it simply a biological mechanism which upregulates the transcription of mRNA and that translates the protein fibrinogen growth factor that stimulates the formation of a blastema(stem-cell like structure with ability to regenerate a damaged limb) in response to injury and humans have supposedly lost this regenerative ability due to divergent evolutionary progressions in populations of billions of years of evolution, mutation, selection pressures? Or is there a relationship between qi, mind/body and gene transcription? I know most men can breastfeed babies, just by stimulation of nipple, and a desire to give milk....indicates stimulation along with mind body mechanism may activate transcription of prolactan which signals male mammary glands to produce milk...sounds like acupuncture(stimulation) and mind/body intention could have an impact here. That's not the only biological mechanism involved, just get angry and see how your biochemistry is affected, or have a great orgasm....stimulation, mind/body and response.

 

I agree western science currently is in definite conflict with qi and acupuncture, but that must not hinder honest inquiry.

And thanks for this article! Im wondering about the biological effects of acupression as opposed to acupuncture, or simply mind intent on a different points....studying these things would fascinate me. I want to learn how to regenerate human limbs with qi and alchemy....crazy? Good like getting funding.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Xienkula1