Shocked, Saddened, and Disappointed

[Baguakid]

I must say I'm shocked and disappointed at the Exorbitant pricing I'm seeing for Qigong, Medical Qigong, and Taoist classes lately.

 

Are these classes becoming only for the super-rich?

 

Here's one:

http://tcmworld.org/programs/tao_of_medica...CFQZqswodvhfe3A

 

Here's another:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...amp;#entry76565

 

 

The price vs amount of material ratio is way off. If you consider what it would take to come to a decent level over time the amount of money it would take could buy a house.

 

When I learned Qigong my teacher would not take any money from me. My Neigong teacher told me if you say thank you one more time I will stop teaching you. My bagua teacher charged me 25.00 a month for classes and personal instruction almost daily.

 

I really feel sad for beginning students today who are thirsting for knowledge only to be stopped by these crazy prices.

 

[h.uriahr]

I must say I'm shocked and disappointed at the Exorbitant pricing I'm seeing for Qigong, Medical Qigong, and Taoist classes lately.

 

Are these classes becoming only for the super-rich?

 

Here's one:

http://tcmworld.org/programs/tao_of_medica...CFQZqswodvhfe3A

 

Here's another:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...amp;#entry76565

The price vs amount of material ratio is way off. If you consider what it would take to come to a decent level over time the amount of money it would take could buy a house.

 

When I learned Qigong my teacher would not take any money from me. My Neigong teacher told me if you say thank you one more time I will stop teaching you. My bagua teacher charged me 25.00 a month for classes and personal instruction almost daily.

 

I really feel sad for beginning students today who are thirsting for knowledge only to be stopped by these crazy prices.

 

 

Personally I believe the only expenses that should be out of pocket is the travel money. If I had to pay for the teaching I received I would have no problem of course because it's worth ALOT to me. I do kind of have problems with people who charge money especially for healing but then if they want to support themselves with just that I dont see much of a problem it just seems a little off to me. Charging money to teach someone how to harness what is already there is IMO a bit off. Healing someone for money is a bit off too. Personally Id feel better if these people just accepted donations of money or time, ie sweep their floors or wash their car that type of thing. Usually the people that charge ridiculous amounts of money arent worth it. They show you some inital flash but that's it.

[Blind Owl]

I do kind of have problems with people who charge money especially for healing but then if they want to support themselves with just that I dont see much of a problem it just seems a little off to me. Charging money to teach someone how to harness what is already there is IMO a bit off. Healing someone for money is a bit off too.

 

I am curious to know why you think that it is a bit off.

Also do you include all healing professions: massage therapists, psychologists, etc.

[mantis]

enlightenment doesn't pay rent

[Aetherous]

When I learned Qigong my teacher would not take any money from me. My Neigong teacher told me if you say thank you one more time I will stop teaching you. My bagua teacher charged me 25.00 a month for classes and personal instruction almost daily.

 

People have specialties. Some are doctors, firefighters, cops, astronauts. They all get paid. Why does someone with a spiritual/energetic specialty deserve nothing?

 

It takes a lot of dedication to live this kind of life. Just like any other job, you almost have to give your entire life and soul to it...so perhaps for some teachers there isn't time to take on another profession. So should they starve and be homeless?

 

And how much do you think these teachings are worth? If it causes you to finally enjoy life instead of feeling miserable; if it helps you find health instead of constantly feeling sick and run down; if it shows you compassion so you can see the need for helping others, and cause you to lead a meaningful life....how can you even put a price tag on these things? They are priceless, but definitely not worthless.

 

Now: some courses aren't worth much and are overpriced. I agree that it's bad in that aspect. But expecting this stuff to be totally free, or very cheap, is a poor expectation.

[Baguakid]

I don't expect it for free. Absolutely not. I just think these prices are way out of line.

 

I did not mention earlier that my qigong teacher (Zhan Zhuang) although he asked for nothing I gave him a couple hundred dollars for his time, my Bagua teacher I gave very nice gifts. I always gave extra, a lot more than the teacher asked (or didn't ask). I would not expect they teach for nothing.

 

The problem is these ppl are holding classes which are a drop in the bucket of their knowledge or a drop in the bucket of what a student needs to have and they are charging big money for that little drop.

 

It's like paying 10.00 for 1 grain of rice when you need several cups to make a meal.

Edited October 30, 2008 by Baguakid

[Aetherous]

Yea I can totally agree, then.

[wudangquan]

I agree, more or less.

 

The unfortunate part is that most people can't get over here to China, where you can learn a good deal of this stuff for free or at a pretty low cost.

 

I haven't personally paid anyone. Not to say like "I'm so great" or something like that because I don't mean that.

 

I've been trying to put up audio forms of as much of the QuanZhen teachings as I have time for on my site.

 

I had hoped to do alot of free stuff here at Wudang for people in the public, but other than my own teacher nobody is interested and really - those guys are business men, mostly.

 

I'm going back to Kunming next month.

 

One of the people I learned some medical qigong from is this guy:

http://www.geocities.com/qgmaster/

 

and I will host a monthly video training from him for free.

 

I'm also going to do a project with my main teacher (priest) to do monthly video trainings, etc.

 

We'll try to cover martial arts, meditation, qigong, ceremony and ritual, etc.

 

I might charge a bit but it will be for building renovation and things like that, and will be well cheaper than $20 a month.

 

I myself don't feel qualified to teach, but I know some very good teachers with very high morality who aren't as famous as others because they just do what they do.

 

What I would like to do is expose people to some ideas of Taoism or cultivation in general which I think are much different than the commercially driven variants (and I'm a high contrarian on most of this stuff. My view of what cultivation "is" differs significantly from most of this forum I am guessing - doesn't mean I'm right, just would like to expose people to some other way of thinking).

 

Would also like to do something to create some infrastructure for people who are working towards their own attainment, and maybe be able to bring someone down to the appalachians or something.

[Vajrasattva]

To pay what is fair for a teacher's time is ok. A teacher should charge a fair fee or have a donation made but should never abuse nor charge stupid high amounts.

 

That is wrong.

[mouse]

 

One of the people I learned some medical qigong from is this guy:

http://www.geocities.com/qgmaster/

 

 

 

wudangquan,

 

His calligraphy is decisive and spot on. It is said you can tell a lot about a person's character from his writing. I think it is true in some aspects.

 

To all,

 

My take on fees is that a master must eat as well and charging fair fees is no big deal for his/her time.

 

Anyone charging high fees in the thousands are normally opportunists. Donations with no fixed limits are common too.

 

No need to get dissapointed or shocked nor saddened. Is a good opportunity to examine the heart. No one is insisting you learn from them anyway.

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

[h.uriahr]

I am curious to know why you think that it is a bit off.

Also do you include all healing professions: massage therapists, psychologists, etc.

 

Ok so lets say some man or woman has a tumor thats inoperable and decides to give me a shout but shes dirt poor and the only money she has is for her rent. Do I take her money or make out a payment plan for healing? I'm talking about the real deal, not some Tony Robins type healer, someone who can successfully heal.

 

enlightenment doesn't pay rent

 

You only know of awareness, not enlightenment

 

People have specialties. Some are doctors, firefighters, cops, astronauts. They all get paid. Why does someone with a spiritual/energetic specialty deserve nothing?

 

It takes a lot of dedication to live this kind of life. Just like any other job, you almost have to give your entire life and soul to it...so perhaps for some teachers there isn't time to take on another profession. So should they starve and be homeless?

 

And how much do you think these teachings are worth? If it causes you to finally enjoy life instead of feeling miserable; if it helps you find health instead of constantly feeling sick and run down; if it shows you compassion so you can see the need for helping others, and cause you to lead a meaningful life....how can you even put a price tag on these things? They are priceless, but definitely not worthless.

 

Now: some courses aren't worth much and are overpriced. I agree that it's bad in that aspect. But expecting this stuff to be totally free, or very cheap, is a poor expectation.

 

If you arent satisfied should you be excused from payment?

[Aetherous]

These are good questions....

 

Ok so lets say some man or woman has a tumor thats inoperable and decides to give me a shout but shes dirt poor and the only money she has is for her rent. Do I take her money or make out a payment plan for healing? I'm talking about the real deal, not some Tony Robins type healer, someone who can successfully heal.

 

It's the same as if you were a doctor. Do you only work for the money, and have no heart? Are you unwilling to give up a little bit of your free time (even if you don't have much) and let someone die when you could prevent it? Or are you a kind doctor, who makes an exception and works free of charge for this one time.

 

If you arent satisfied should you be excused from payment?

 

That would be nice, but it's ultimately up to the one charging the money. If you don't get your money back, then you're free to say their stuff sucks on a public forum.

[h.uriahr]

If you notice, the ones who are the real deal "badasses" so to speak, didnt charge anything to teach or heal. Donations are fine in my mind.

[Baguakid]

 

 

Is a good opportunity to examine the heart.

 

 

Totally agree.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Baguakid

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited August 27, 2009 by mjjbecker

[h.uriahr]

Wang Liping?

 

Never met him. However, from the stories he is supposed to be quite the master, walking through walls and such. If he is infact on that level then it seems a bit odd that China controls what he can and cant do dont you think? Again, I've never met him but it's my understanding ( what I've read anyway) is that he's pretty much controlled by China, only able to leave when they say so etc. If I'm right about that then it's a bit odd that someone who can walk through walls has to take orders. If I'm wrong then whoops.

[bindo]

If you arent satisfied should you be excused from payment?

I do healing work and I would never turn down someone for lack of money. For those that do pay, I tell them that I don't want to be paid unless they experience a significant improvement in their condition. I only accept payment for results, not for my efforts. I do a lot of free healing, too.

Edited October 31, 2008 by bindo

[h.uriahr]

I do healing work and I would never turn down someone for lack of money. For those that do pay, I tell them that I don't want to be paid unless they experience a significant improvement in their condition. I only accept payment for results, not for my efforts. I do a lot of free healing, too.

 

Very nice to hear that some people heal for free.

 

Charging thousands and thousands of dollars for training is bullshit. It's the same for the pastor with the mercedes, that shit doesnt fly. It's one thing to have a job or business that brings in money but to teach and heal for money is like me teaching you to clip your toenails. All I'm doing is showing you what's already there. As far as a badass I was specifically speaking of Buddha, JC and JC. As Ive said, donations are ok but charging is a poor sign of character on the teacher's part.

[Stigweard]

LOL the last payment I got for teaching Tai Chi was a large jar of honey

[minkus]

LOL the last payment I got for teaching Tai Chi was a large jar of honey

 

tasty !

[Blind Owl]

[Aetherous]

It's one thing to have a job or business that brings in money but to teach and heal for money is like me teaching you to clip your toenails. All I'm doing is showing you what's already there.

 

So you should be poor because of that?

 

I don't personally see the morality in being broke. I think people have this delusion that you're supposed to sacrifice everything when you're a spiritual teacher/healer, because that would make it more spiritual or something.

 

To me it's just a sign that the ego is more crafty than ever. "I'm not going to charge anything because then I will seem very humble, and that gives me great pride and satisfaction in myself." Is there really any other reason for not charging anything, than this?

 

Yes, charging too much and having a luxurious life for yourself doesn't seem right. But expecting all the "badasses" to work for free just isn't practical.

[h.uriahr]

So you should be poor because of that?

 

I don't personally see the morality in being broke. I think people have this delusion that you're supposed to sacrifice everything when you're a spiritual teacher/healer, because that would make it more spiritual or something.

 

To me it's just a sign that the ego is more crafty than ever. "I'm not going to charge anything because then I will seem very humble, and that gives me great pride and satisfaction in myself." Is there really any other reason for not charging anything, than this?

 

Yes, charging too much and having a luxurious life for yourself doesn't seem right. But expecting all the "badasses" to work for free just isn't practical.

 

Buddha didnt charge, Jesus Christ didnt charge, John Chang doesnt charge. It's an issue of of individual morality obviously. Strike me up one for not charging. Those are the badasses I was speaking of.

 

A sign that the ego is crafty? Not charging anything doesnt mean youre faux humbled either lol. Have you ever volunteered for anything ever? Did you think it was a waste of time or did you get some sort of satisfaction because you did a good deed? Have you ever donated to charity? How about anonomously? How about when you do something like any of the above you dont brag about it but keep it to yourself?

[TheTaoist]

We have to make a difference between teaching and healing. Teaching is a long process and should be free of charge for "real" disciples. It is very difficult for masters to find such a person that rejects everything else for learning Tao. In seminars a master can just give an introduction and it is ok to charge an adecuate amount for it, so that the master can go on doing so, and doesn't have to look for another job.

 

Healing should be free of charge worldwide and payed by insurance. But while reality is quite different, healers and as well doctors should be paid by donation. This is the fairest system because good healers persist while jerks disappear. This is a natural selection process.

[h.uriahr]

Physicians and surgeons make from 100k up to like 300k so in fairness is it ok for a hands on healer to get paid just as much?