How This Universe Works?

[ddilulo_06]

According to David R. Hawkins, and other spiritual teachers, everything happens spontaneously. Control is an illusion. Something happens, then our minds take credit for it and say "I did that."

 

Let me ask you something. Where do your thoughts come from? Did you choose to have your last thought just a moment ago, or did it happen of its own accord?

 

I believe everything happens spontaneously from the one will, but I'm not 100% sure. Intuition says yes. I've heard this is self evident in the enlightened state. Supposedly, there is only one will - God's will.

 

I have also heard that we have free will as well.

 

How can this be? Can we have both? Is this paradox from two different levels of awareness in conflict with one another?

[thelerner]

In a practical sense, so what? If everything happens simultaneously I still have to put on my socks one at a time, turn the ignition before I drive, hit return before this is posted. No matter what, from my point of view everything is sequential.

 

Same thing w/ free will. If there was a god predestinying my every move, he'd undoubtedly be dead of boredom by now. Michael scratching butt, Michael staring at computer screen, Michael still scratching butt, no doubt a higher being who controlled every action would destroy the known universe for a more exciting channel.

 

Michael

[gendao]

IMO, we are like living in a 2D reality here...

 

Our time is 2D - only going linearly from past to future.

Our vision is 2D - where we only see every event from 1 dualistic perspective.

 

But outside the veil of ignorance in this Earthly realm, time is 3D. This can be seen in a cross - where the horizontal bar is 2D from past to future - but the vertical line is the 3rd dimension. Where there are actually expanded "outcomes" in the same moment. To experience that expanded NOW here, we must open our hearts, where we "cross our hearts."

 

Similarly, vision there is 3D, where both sides of each coin can be seen at the same time. To see that here, we must open our third eyes.

 

 

Anyhow, the apparent conflict between fate & free will is actually due to our decreased perception here where we can only blindly feel the elephant one part at a time. So, we may not be able to change the elephant (fateful event) itself, but we can choose what part of it we want to experience (free will).

 

 

BTW, I have nothing to prove all this, so it could all be BS...

[Aetherous]

no doubt a higher being who controlled every action would destroy the known universe for a more exciting channel.

 

God is super-easily amused.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Saint Augustine wrote about God's Will and Free Will. A simple google search will turn up a lot of interesting articles.

 

Then there was something that I learned in a classical literature class, when talking about books such as the Iliad and the Odyssey. Every mortal was given their "share" by the gods. As in, when they were born they were "destined" to get a certain "portion" of goods, money, fame, adventure, all the things in life. The actions of humans, however, could increase or (more commonly), DECREASE the "proportion" that you received. Typically someone who wants more than their fair share ends up breaking a law set by the gods and ends up with nothing. So I joked around with my math friends that the meaning of life was an oscillating sin function, and depending on what your actions are will determine your place on the curve, where the max you can be is one and the min you can be is negative one... talk about the meaning of life that's when I realized I sounded like my calc teacher but then I wonder how many life lessons can be learned from math, which I don't particularly like So pretty much with that you could say that there is a predestined thing, but it exists in a range of possibilities. You could end up anywhere within a certain range of possibilities. The possibilities may be predetermined, but which one you arrive at is completely up to you.

 

But really, thinking about all of this stuff can drive you insane. Is it free will? Predestination? Spontaneous action, or long term effect? But then suddenly it dawned on me to drop the distinction. You COULD judge something as fate, but then that suddenly creates a whole class of "free will" actions that you may have done in the past that you now have to revisit. Or you can say that everything is "free will", but then what about all the random occurrences that happen for no rhyme or reason, or at least none that any human can see or feasibly explain?

 

OR you can just drop the whole distinction altogether and just let things be

 

... which is the direction I'm leaning towards now... I just take a long time to internalize things and get 100% behind any one of my ideas

Edited November 2, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[wuliheron]

According to David R. Hawkins, and other spiritual teachers, everything happens spontaneously. Control is an illusion. Something happens, then our minds take credit for it and say "I did that."

 

This line of reasoning tends to remind me of the Disney film, "The Lion King". At one point in the movie the lion king says he does not care about what happened in the past. In response a shaman ape hits him over the head with a stick. When the lion king asks why he did that the ape responds, "Who cares, it is in the past!"

 

Let me ask you something. Where do your thoughts come from? Did you choose to have your last thought just a moment ago, or did it happen of its own accord?

 

I believe everything happens spontaneously from the one will, but I'm not 100% sure. Intuition says yes. I've heard this is self evident in the enlightened state. Supposedly, there is only one will - God's will.

 

I have also heard that we have free will as well.

 

How can this be? Can we have both? Is this paradox from two different levels of awareness in conflict with one another?

 

You might find the work of Antonio Demasio interesting. Demasio is a neurologist who specializes in working with people who have lost the ability to emote. Without emotions these people function to a great extent like computers, garbage-in garbage-out. They can understand things intellectually, but they have no meaning for them. One woman would not get out of bed unless someone suggested it, and a man he worked with would do anything anyone suggested. Another man literally could not decide whether or not to tie his shoes.

 

Of course, this does not answer the BIG question of whether or not we ultimately have free will, but I often find it more helpful to start small and work my way up. Quite frequently I find that once I know the little answers the big ones just don't seem so important anymore.

Edited November 2, 2008 by wuliheron

[ddilulo_06]

I was asking the enlightened people here... SHEESH!

 

 

Thanks though guys. Between this thread and the Taoism for dummies thread, I'll be busy.

[phore]

it all happened in an instant

time is an illusion

[ddilulo_06]

fucker

[Gerard]

To the OP,

 

Your answer is related to these two concepts:

 

1. Five aggregates (khandhas)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha

 

 

2. Dependent arising (paticcasamuppada)

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da

 

 

Metta.

[.broken.]

All the different schools of thought on the matter come from people with different perspectives... Lol, just read that back and realised how silly that sounds.

 

Let me explain.

 

Yes, time is illusory from the point of view of the universal consciousness. I have entered the timeless realm - arguably never left it - and it does seem that 'God' has every single thing planned out. From this perspective, there is no free will and all lies within the hands of fate.

 

But then, from our every day experiences we know that our bodies operate differently. This material realm is subject to time. As such there is a perpetual unfolding of events... constant change. Change creates opportunities for the individual observer within this reality. Situations appear where we have a choice of action. In fact, these appear all the time, in each moment.

 

The problem with experiencing this 'now' is thanks to our upbringing - and if one is a believer in such, our past lives too. Habitual thinking, karmic conditioning, ignorance; call it what you will.

 

Our past experiences clearly influence our current experience. This is where free will comes into play. We can choose our experiences. We can mould ourselves. We can literally shape our destiny. What we choose, however, is very much dependant on our habits and our level of awareness... the automatic decisions and the conscious decisions. Be mindful, be conscious at any given moment and you shall see for your self.

 

This is the very reason behind spiritual development. To unlearn our past.

 

To answer your main question... All is relative. That is simply how the universe works. Which path you choose is yours and yours alone.

 

Yours, out of perspective,

James

[thelerner]

I was asking the enlightened people here... SHEESH!

 

 

Thanks though guys. Between this thread and the Taoism for dummies thread, I'll be busy.

 

The truly enlightened here don't post. They just read and laugh.

 

 

Michael

[rain]

In a practical sense, so what? If everything happens simultaneously I still have to put on my socks one at a time, turn the ignition before I drive, hit return before this is posted. No matter what, from my point of view everything is sequential.

 

Same thing w/ free will. If there was a god predestinying my every move, he'd undoubtedly be dead of boredom by now. Michael scratching butt, Michael staring at computer screen, Michael still scratching butt, no doubt a higher being who controlled every action would destroy the known universe for a more exciting channel.

 

Michael

 

it is a question of control and choice isn't it?

 

and Michael seeing you in a broader perspective just COULD be hilarious...

"Tommy caan you heaar mee?"

 

come plaaayyyy...

 

dang sorry didnt see that "enlighened wanted thang until too late".

Edited November 2, 2008 by rain

[thelerner]

Dang, I've been singing from the Tommy album all morning.

 

If god is a Peeping Tom can we Sue?

 

 

 

This parallels the discussion on Evil. To the enlightened evil doesn't exist, because they're totally in the moment, accepting all that happens just now. Right Now they're fine, no worries about the next moment.

 

To me and the great majority of unenlightened masses, evil ofcourse exists, we read it in the newspapers, feel it in our cells as they die off, fear change and loss.

 

 

So, like evil, time doesn't exist for the enlightened, its just Now. Things will get done in the Now that is later .

 

 

Michael

 

 

Q. Is a sign of becoming more awakened a collapsing of the feel of the flow of time?

[ddilulo_06]

Thank you James.

 

The truly enlightened here don't post. They just read and laugh.

 

 

Michael

 

Seriously though:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2008 by ddilulo_06

[wuliheron]

I was asking the enlightened people here... SHEESH!

 

 

Thanks though guys. Between this thread and the Taoism for dummies thread, I'll be busy.

 

Sorry, my mistake. Next time maybe you will make that more clear for the rest of us poor slobs.

[Dog]

According to David R. Hawkins, and other spiritual teachers, everything happens spontaneously. Control is an illusion. Something happens, then our minds take credit for it and say "I did that."

 

Let me ask you something. Where do your thoughts come from? Did you choose to have your last thought just a moment ago, or did it happen of its own accord?

 

I believe everything happens spontaneously from the one will, but I'm not 100% sure. Intuition says yes. I've heard this is self evident in the enlightened state. Supposedly, there is only one will - God's will.

 

I have also heard that we have free will as well.

 

How can this be? Can we have both? Is this paradox from two different levels of awareness in conflict with one another?

Forgive me if I am repeating people. I have not read through the posts here but felt my perspective might help. In my opinion creation is about process or relationship. Thoughts like anything else in nature come from the the process or communications of heaven and earth yin and yang. You choose to claim or identify with certain thoughts just as you can claim a peace of land. Humanity rests between haven and earth or divinity and biology if you like, one foot in each. This is why I say control is illusional and its attempt is draining, most of the general communication I see is an attempt to predict and manipulate, not communicating freely our ling or true self this drains us. That is true freedom, freedom of expression like in a dream. If I had to pick one thing we control, it is how much we wish to open and create space for this process of the life force. The rest is relating to family.

I hope that makes sense and helps.

[ddilulo_06]

Sorry, my mistake. Next time maybe you will make that more clear for the rest of us poor slobs.

I guess it was a bad joke that could be taken as condescending over the Internet. Sorry.

[Gerard]

The truly enlightened here don't post. They just read and laugh.

 

 

Michael

 

Are you sure?

 

Gautama Buddha didn't spend his life laughing after he attained nirvana.

 

 

 

 

Metta.

[Wayfarer64]

I kinda think that to align ourselves with the natural flow of time/space is to become one who is attaining a closeness with the Tao... the closer we come to being one with the Tao the closer our "wills" are in synch with our own Tao - as it were-

 

there will always be a time/space gap between the I and the oneness we seek... just to keep everything moving along -and laughs aplenty for each & all to boot...

 

and Michael - that butt scratching - I hope it is not a serious condition needing salve!

[h.uriahr]

This line of reasoning tends to remind me of the Disney film, "The Lion King". At one point in the movie the lion king says he does not care about what happened in the past. In response a shaman ape hits him over the head with a stick. When the lion king asks why he did that the ape responds, "Who cares, it is in the past!"

You might find the work of Antonio Demasio interesting. Demasio is a neurologist who specializes in working with people who have lost the ability to emote. Without emotions these people function to a great extent like computers, garbage-in garbage-out. They can understand things intellectually, but they have no meaning for them. One woman would not get out of bed unless someone suggested it, and a man he worked with would do anything anyone suggested. Another man literally could not decide whether or not to tie his shoes.

 

Of course, this does not answer the BIG question of whether or not we ultimately have free will, but I often find it more helpful to start small and work my way up. Quite frequently I find that once I know the little answers the big ones just don't seem so important anymore.

 

Obviously they dont understand things intellectually because one guy couldnt decide on whethe or not he should tie his shoes. That's an easy rational decision. Getting out of bed is another one. You stay in bed you get nothing done. You stay in bed you dont get up to eat, you need to eat to survive. Surviving is rational thought.

[ddilulo_06]

I kinda think that to align ourselves with the natural flow of time/space is to become one who is attaining a closeness with the Tao... the closer we come to being one with the Tao the closer our "wills" are in synch with our own Tao - as it were-

 

Thank you. I like this.

[wuliheron]

I guess it was a bad joke that could be taken as condescending over the Internet. Sorry.

 

No problem.

[wuliheron]

Obviously they dont understand things intellectually because one guy couldnt decide on whethe or not he should tie his shoes. That's an easy rational decision. Getting out of bed is another one. You stay in bed you get nothing done. You stay in bed you dont get up to eat, you need to eat to survive. Surviving is rational thought.

 

Being rational means being reasonable or of sound mind which, of course, brain damaged people are not. Intelligence and knowledge are not the same as having good judgment, survival instincts, etc.

[Wayfarer64]

Thank you. I like this.

 

 

& thanks to you as well- It is a boon when what I offer here rings true for someone- who replys -

 

this kind of connectivity is perhaps what some of us seek here

 

and once again in the opto-mystic spirit of self -promotion please check out my book -the Wayfarer Sonnets -

 

I really need to boost my sales or Lulu may "down-grade" me on their site!

 

Being rational means being reasonable or of sound mind which, of course, brain damaged people are not. Intelligence and knowledge are not the same as having good judgment, survival instincts, etc.

 

 

an old friend of mine who IS mentally /chemically unbalanced can do very little for himself on any given day-he remains almost infantile in his abilities, while priding himself on laziness and slovenliness - because that is all he Can do... it takes all kinds... he has a very sweet nature if self-absorbed to a very unhealthy degree...

 

So- rather than envy him having found his way to be.. we need to choose our own paths, find our own best ways to be ourselves - find our own capasity for the virtues we hope to emulate etc -