Spatial orientation - Egyptian Opening of the Mouth Ceremony

[Apech]

It has been shown that there is a convention for orientation based on what is known as the "Opening of the mouth". This was a ceremony performed with statues and mummies to 'activate' them. After this had been done it was thought that the statue or mummy could use its mouth, either to speak or to take in food. For the funerary ceremony, the mummy was placed in a semi-upright position on a mound of sand facing South with its head leaning backwards towards the North. Because of this, its right side was towards the West and its left side towards the East. This association was so clear that the word for right was 'West' and for left was 'East'.

 

The compass points all had symbolic significance. The West is associated with the sun-set and the land of the dead, the Egyptian word for this 'Amenti' literally means 'hidden land'. The East is associated with the sun rise and creation (kheper), evolving or 'coming into being'. The South is the associated with the origin of the Nile and therefore fertility and with the brightest constellations in the night sky, Sothis and Orion (or Isis and Osiris) and also the zenith point of the midday sun. The North is associated with the eternal and imperishible stars which do not set and the 'Great Mooring Post' the North point in the sky around which the whole sky appears to rotate. In Egyptian times there was no North star and so this point was dark space. This fixed point is protected by the hippo goddess who represents the birth of the world from the Nun.

 

Because the mummy was inclined backwards during the Opening the Mouth, the top of its head would point North and its gaze would be at the Southern sky, which would include the zenith of the 'plane of ecliptic' or the height of the midday sun. The plane of ecliptic is the plane of the solar system through which the sun and planets appear to move, the Egyptians called it 'the winding waterway' because during the year the sun moves from one extreme of a band(about 12 degrees) to another. So from the point of the mummy the sun rises on his left to be directly in front at midday. So in this sense the Southern sky is associated with the luminous, either the sun in the day or the bright stars and planets during the night.

 

To oppose this 'bright sky' we have the West and the North. On the mummy's right hand side the sun sets in the West. It enters the land of death, the Dwat or Amenti. Here the sun is thought to slough all the detritus picked up during the day, it is purified and 'dissolved' in the waters of Nun back to its essential nature. These dark waters are associated with the North, the fixed point, the void around which the stars, the gods and all beings rotate and into which the universe will be extinguished at the end of the world.

 

The Egyptians saw everything in terms of dualities. Here the East and South form one, to do with luminosity and the West and North form another to do with voidity. The way in which they expressed these two pairs was using the symbolism of the Sons of Horus. These four deities are usually connected with the canopic jars which held the organs which were removed during mummification. But it has become clear that this was a secondary association and that the 'Sons' were originally either stars or the 'pillars of the sky'. The pillars of the sky assisted Shu (the air god) in his task of holding the sky up.

 

The sky, or the goddess Nut, is seen as a woman (or sometimes a cow) with her body stretched over the earth. Her head is in the West and her feet in the East. Each morning she gives birth to the sun and then in the evening swallows it. During the night the sun passed through her body which comprises the water of Nun. Her arms and legs support her arched body as does the god Shu. Also supporting her are the pillars of heaven.

 

If we look on Middle Egyptian coffins we an see these four Sons of Horus shown usually on the two long sides, two on the right side and two on the left. We already know that 'right' means West and left means East, so we know that Two are in the West and Two in the East. These four gods were also associated with the compass points and through the series of associations we end up with North and West on the right-hand side of the coffin and South and East on the left-hand side. While this is quite complicated the associations are quite clear. ( Care to be taken when looking at New Kingdom sarcophagi as the orientation changed at the beginning of this period.)

 

These four pillars of heaven are the four principles which keep the sky from the earth and thus the world in existence. Two are to do with upward movement and growth, the Eastern and Southern and two are to do with downward movement and death and dissolution, the Western and Northern. Each are ascribed an animal form as follows:

 

South - Imsety - man

North - Hapi - ape

East - Duamutef - jackal

West - Quebehsenuef - hawk

 

The number four here denotes 'establishment', that is the idea that through these four the world is made stable, established and the symbol for this is the 'djed' pillar of Osiris, an object which has not been precisely identified but which is topped by four vertebrae and is certainly associated with the spine. Vertical uprightness is important in Egypt as the resurrection of Osiris is said to be his 'raising up', also the cobra goddess 'Iaret', or Greek Uraeus means 'she who rears up' and also the obvious connection with the sun rising. One Egyptian word for 'to exist' was 'st' - written with a throne glyph which is also the symbol of Isis.

 

Here Isis and her sister Nephthys stand for the two phases of the sun's cycle, that of the 'morning boat' from midnight until midday and that of the 'evening boat' from midday until midnight. The first 'growing phase' is Isis, the throne who embraces and supports Osiris bringing into being his son Horus and the second being Nephthys the pathway down into voidity (and death). Because of this Isis is placed in protection over Imsety (the South) the basis for luminosity and Nephthys is placed in protection over Hapi the Northern point of voidity. In a similar way the other two 'sons' have their protecting goddesses.

 

These Sons of Horus are the historical origin of the four fixed points of the zodiac, the four beast and the four elements of Western Hermetic thought.

 

The Opening of the Mouth was actually a way of encapsulating and using this understanding of the cosmos to create the the right conditions for a functioning being. That is through the alignment of an individual to the correct cosmic correspondences it is possible to 'tune in' and gain benefit from the natural forces that exist. In meditational terms one could say that the whole thing is like a kind of 'mind map', which allows understanding of the luminous, the void and that which lies beyond them by experiencing the pattern of energies which they bring into being.

[Yoda]

Apepch7,

 

You read my mind... thank you!

 

No north star back in the day?????

 

I totally get that North and West are downward and East and South are upward... thanks for that!!

 

I don't understand the elemental correspondences on a gut level. Do I have them right? Per me, the Egyptian elemental correspondences are:

 

West/air

South/water

East/fire

North/earth

 

That seems to go against the upward/downward thing, with water being upward S and air being downward W.

 

Need to ponder the animals too to see if I can feel it.

 

I suppose there are different directions to face for different meditations/ceremonies/etc?

 

Let me know if there are certain gods consistently associated with particular directions?

 

Do the Egyptians do anything with the NE/SE/SW/NW directions?

 

I know you've said that the Egyptians didn't have a developed astrology system originally, but maybe the directional influences could fit in somehow with a simple astrology system, you think? Do the Egyptians do "hours" or something similar that have correspondences?

 

Thanks!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Apech]

Hi Yoda,

 

You need more correspondences to understand the Sons of Horus. I will supply tomorrow cos its late here and I'm going to bed.

 

They do have hours and the goddesses go in the nw/ne/se/sw compass points on the canopic jar chest.

 

Thanks for reading my stuff by the way.

 

 

Cheers.

[Yoda]

Maybe it's just placebo, but today I've faced west for downward flow practices and South or East for upward flow, and it helps!

[Apech]

Apepch7,

 

You read my mind... thank you!

 

No north star back in the day?????

 

The astronomical north varies with time and in the time of Ancient Egypt there was no star in that position. I believe this led to the importance of non-being or voidity in Egyptian thought because the universe rotated around no-thing!

 

I totally get that North and West are downward and East and South are upward... thanks for that!!

 

I don't understand the elemental correspondences on a gut level. Do I have them right? Per me, the Egyptian elemental correspondences are:

 

West/air

South/water

East/fire

North/earth

 

That seems to go against the upward/downward thing, with water being upward S and air being downward W.

 

Ok - even though Western Hermetic thought owes its origin to Egypt (and Mesopotamia) one to one crrespondence is difficult - the Egyptians sort of hinted at the elements as such but they were not expressed in the way that we understand today. So while some read across is valuable it can be misleading. For instance using the Kabbalistic Tree of Life with Egyptian deities is something people do - ok fine for them - but doesn't work for me. Its probably best if I give you more on the Sons of Horus and you can draw your own conclusions.

 

 

Need to ponder the animals too to see if I can feel it.

 

I suppose there are different directions to face for different meditations/ceremonies/etc?

 

Let me know if there are certain gods consistently associated with particular directions?

 

Do the Egyptians do anything with the NE/SE/SW/NW directions?

 

Yes - I will give more info on this thread in a while.

 

I know you've said that the Egyptians didn't have a developed astrology system originally, but maybe the directional influences could fit in somehow with a simple astrology system, you think? Do the Egyptians do "hours" or something similar that have correspondences?

 

The Egyptians 'invented' hours using amongst other things the Decanal Stars - so they had a 24 hour day based on sets of twelve stars which 'work' for ten days each. Basically through the night they watched when certain stars rose above the horizon, or reached the mid heaven and this marked the beginning of each hour. because the sky precesses (?), the stars are only in alignment for 10 days after which the next star takes its place. During the day they used water clocks and sun dials. Certain hours were significant eg. midnight when the sun's soul was most at risk. Each hour has characteristics given for instance in the Am Dwat or Book of Gates and the New Kingdom Sky books.

 

Of course in later times, particularly Ptolemaic times astrology as we now know it was used. However it doesn't interest me so I don't know much about it. As the Egyptian religion was still properly understood then I am sure they worked out all the correspondences and I am sure there are excellent books on this - or just start here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendera_Zodiac

 

 

More on Sons of Horus etc. in a bit.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2008 by apepch7

[Yoda]

cool... I'm very happy to toss that N-earth, W-air, etc table.

 

I have a book that lists lots of Egyptian correspondences but I'd much rather go by your figuring. This book even includes archangel directional correspondences (Michael, Rafael, Azriel, etc)??? I was thinking that maybe the archangels might have an overlap to Egyptian deities like Hermes does to Anubis or Thor to Zues... just cross cultural similarities, but nothing to put weight on.

[Apech]

The first thing to remember when looking at the compass directions and Ancient Egypt is the unusual geography of the country. Essentially there are two types of habitable terrain. The southern part of the country is simply the strip of land formed by the flood plane of the Nile, beyond this both to the East and the West is desert. As the river, flowing South to North, reaches the middle of the country it begins to broaden out into a massive delta of multiple rivulets and wetlands. The delta empties into the Mediterranean Sea. So the northern terrain is very distinct to the southern. The necropolis was sited on the West bank which became associated with death.

 

In ancient times the land was divided in two. Upper Egypt in the South was ruled by kings wearing the tall white crown while the North, or Lower Egypt was ruled by kings wearing the Red Crown. The tutelary goddesses, associated with these crowns were Nekhabet, the vulture in the South and Wadjet the cobra in the North. The gods associated with these ancient kings were Horus in the North and Set in the South. To these we can add Thoth for the West and in the East either another form of Horus called Dwanany or sometimes Min (a fertility god) or An-hur (Onuris) the hunter. Confusion often arises because of the two forms of Horus, one in the North and one in the East. The Northern Horus is sometimes called Horus the Elder.

 

In illustrations of the the royal coronation two gods are shown annointing or libating the king, these are traditionally Horus and Set or later Horus and Thoth (possibly because Set became increasingly associated with destruction or to add an East/West dimension to the scene).

 

The unified kingdom of Egypt (still known as the 'Two Lands or Kingdoms") came about as a result of a struggle between the Southern and Northern kings, the followers of Set and Horus. This was mythologised in the 'Contendings of Horus and Set' in which the two gods were said to battle for 80 years. During this struggle Set was said to injure Horus' eye (in return Horus tore off Set's testicles (ouch!)). This is actually symbolic of a condition of impasse where willful drive and overseeing awareness neutralise each other. In compensation for the loss of his eye Horus (who is the eventual winner of this struggle) is given the four Sons of Horus, two in the North and two in the South.

 

As Horus, the god associated with the 'eye' is all about awareness and when his eye is sound or whole - this is unified awareness, wholeness of being or consciousness, when we are dealing with duality, that is when we don't have this unified consciousness we have four points of view which help us understand and deal with things in the absence of this holistic awareness. These four distinct ways of seeing or experiencing things are the Sons of Horus.

 

The Sons of Horus are present on three levels of existence. In the sky, the god or noumenal realm, as four of the Imperishible Souls - the stars of the Great Bear (Ursa Major) which never set below the horizon and as the Four Rudders of Heaven. In the 'atmosphere' of Shu as the pillars of heaven. In the earth/body as the gods of the Canopic Jars holding the organs of the body removed in mummification.

 

In this last form we can try to understand their function. I'll go through them one by one.

 

Imsety

 

This god protects the liver and is human headed. Its direction is South and it is protected by the goddess Isis. Imsety is said to "make your house flourish and endure" - here 'house' probably means body, the place where your spirit dwells.

 

The Egyptians had good medical knowledge and understood circulation and so on. However its not entirely clear what they thought of the function of the liver. But its not huge step to assume that they intuited the function along the lines of modern knowledge. The liver is a kind of chemical factory for the body which manufactures glycogen and also filters the blood. I am assuming here then that 'making the house flourish and endure' is about manufacturing the chemicals for metabolism and energy.

 

Hapi

 

This god protects the lungs and has the head of an ape or baboon. Its direction is North and it is protected by Nephthys. Hapi is said to "knit together your head and your members (body)...given you your head for ever." The joining of the head to the body was a most significant thing for the Egyptians.

 

Hapi is sometimes called the 'navigator' or 'great runner'. The name of the goddess Nephthys is usually given as 'Lady of the House' - in Egyptian Nebet-hwt. Nebet means Lady and Hwt actually means temple enclosure. So a better translation would be "Mistress of the temple" or High Priestess.

 

The association of 'lungs' with joining the head to the body probably comes from the 'sma' unification symbol where the North and South of Egypt are unitesd together by knotting plants around a lung and trachea symbol.

 

Obviously the lungs are to do with breathing, which again rather like the liver is to do with energy metabolism. Also there are two lungs which are joined so I suppose the symbolism is obvious. Joining the head to the body covers two things really, one is to do with identity. The head is the recognisable person, the face and so without your head you could be any spirit in the underworld. But more importantly the head is exclusively the site of four out of the five senses. So the head is about perception. Joining the head to the body means joining presence and perception.

 

Duamutef

 

This god protects the stomach and has the head of a jackal. Its direction is East and it is protected by the warrior/huntress goddess Neith (or Nit). He is said to "protect you from he who would harm you ...".

 

The name Duamutef means literally "he who praises his mother".

 

The stomach is of course principally about breaking down food in order to digest it using acid. As distinct from the first two organs this is less about energy metabolism but more about the process of assimilation.

 

Quebhsenuef

 

This god protects the intestines and has the head of a hawk. Its direction is West and it is protected by the scorpion goddess Serqet (or Selkis). He is said to "join your bones together for you, collect your members for you, bring your heart for you."

 

The name Quebhsenuef means literally "he who libates his siblings", libate means to cleanse with water. The Scorpion goddess accompanies Isis and is to do with healing. She has the title "Serqet-hetu" which means either reliever or constrictor of the windpipe depending on how you read it. This is likely to be something to do with the use of scorpion venom for healing - a symptom of some scorpion stings was throat restriction.

 

The intestines remove nutrients and water from digested food to feed the body, also about the process of assimilation.

 

 

There is a lot more to be said on this very important subject but my typing fingers are worn out.

 

Over to you Yoda, to say which of the Sons is which element.

 

Edited November 4, 2008 by apepch7

[Yoda]

Thanks! No clear element per direction as far as I can make out and that's fine with me.

 

West is my pet direction at the moment, so the death/scorpion thing is interesting to me. So the sun dies in the west and their necropolis is in the west. I forget if you said this before, but does Thoth or Quebhsenuef have deathiness to them?

 

I read in Haich's "Initiation" which is essentially channeled/homegrown info that the scorpion in Egyptian religion symbolizes the fluids of the body which when harnessed correctly create the poison needed to kill the ego to allow for a spiritual rebirth and that the scorpion stings itself with its own poison to do this and then the scorpion is reborn as a hawk. (As I type this a hawk is hunting in my backyard.) In the book she calls refers to the scorpion as the "scorpion-hawk"...

 

Does her account find any traction with what you know or simply more new agey drivel?

 

I'm imagining that I'm seeing a connection between N & W and S & E in your descriptions.

 

Was the red crown tall too!

 

Thanks!

Yoda

[Apech]

The crowns:

 

 

[Apech]

Thanks! No clear element per direction as far as I can make out and that's fine with me.

 

West is my pet direction at the moment, so the death/scorpion thing is interesting to me. So the sun dies in the west and their necropolis is in the west. I forget if you said this before, but does Thoth or Quebhsenuef have deathiness to them?

 

I read in Haich's "Initiation" which is essentially channeled/homegrown info that the scorpion in Egyptian religion symbolizes the fluids of the body which when harnessed correctly create the poison needed to kill the ego to allow for a spiritual rebirth and that the scorpion stings itself with its own poison to do this and then the scorpion is reborn as a hawk. (As I type this a hawk is hunting in my backyard.) In the book she calls refers to the scorpion as the "scorpion-hawk"...

 

Does her account find any traction with what you know or simply more new agey drivel?

 

I'm imagining that I'm seeing a connection between N & W and S & E in your descriptions.

 

Was the red crown tall too!

 

Thanks!

Yoda

 

 

Hi

 

I don't have a big problem with Haich's view of the scorpion energy. Certainly there is a scorpion/hawk dynamic because of Serqet/Quebsenuef. If you want to continue the astrology link then you might consider a hawk (possibly air) with a water link (libation) in the West AND an air sign with a water connection in the 'west' on Zodiac (is it?) Aquarius. (?)

 

Also I think healing and illness connotations of Serqet can be translated to fluids that kill ego and so on. yes.

 

Cheers.

 

[Yoda]

Hi

 

I don't have a big problem with Haich's view of the scorpion energy. Certainly there is a scorpion/hawk dynamic because of Serqet/Quebsenuef. If you want to continue the astrology link then you might consider a hawk (possibly air) with a water link (libation) in the West AND an air sign with a water connection in the 'west' on Zodiac (is it?) Aquarius. (?)

 

Also I think healing and illness connotations of Serqet can be translated to fluids that kill ego and so on. yes.

 

Cheers.

 

thanks apepch7!

 

Another question for you... I was reading wiki that said the Phoenixes of China and Egypt are unrelated and I viscerally disagree with that. I think I've heard that the Egyptian Phoenix travels back and forth to India per a Greek account. Must have been referring to the Garuda.

 

I'd love more background info, thanks!!

 

I was wondering if there were any parallels between the scorpion/hawk relation and the dragon/phoenix relation? Did the Egyptians have dragons in the first place? (I've never heard of an Egyptian dragon but they seem to have everything else so why not? )

 

Thanks!

Yoda

[Apech]

thanks apepch7!

 

Another question for you... I was reading wiki that said the Phoenixes of China and Egypt are unrelated and I viscerally disagree with that. I think I've heard that the Egyptian Phoenix travels back and forth to India per a Greek account. Must have been referring to the Garuda.

 

I'd love more background info, thanks!!

 

I was wondering if there were any parallels between the scorpion/hawk relation and the dragon/phoenix relation? Did the Egyptians have dragons in the first place? (I've never heard of an Egyptian dragon but they seem to have everything else so why not? )

 

Thanks!

Yoda

 

 

Hi Yoda,

 

Thanks for the questions Yoda.

 

The Phoenix has its origins in the Egyptian Heliopolitan sun worship and was seen as the creator god (Atum or Ra) or his 'ba' (soul). The bird depicted in Egyptian iconography is the grey heron (Ardea cinera) and was called by the Egyptians 'Benu' (sometimes written Bennu).

 

The name Benu is related to other terms such as 'ben-ben', the original mound or hill from which the creation took place. This mound was symbolised by the obelisk and the pyramid. Also related is the word 'weben' which means 'to rise or to shine' and refers to the emerging sun at dawn.

 

As I think you know, the pre-creational state was imaged as a watery darkness called the Nun. The Egyptians had a number of images and symbols which were designed to reflect the way in which the created world emerged from the waters of Nun. One of these involves the Benu (Phoenix) as the soul of Atum flying above the waters and settling on the first mound (ben-ben) and then crying out. As it cries all that is to be is distinguished from what is not to be. And so the created world emerges.

 

If we see reality as a field of vibrational energy, then we can say that before a perceivable world exists, all possible forms are co-mingled in the field in a way which means that equal and opposites cancel each other out. You can compare this with the idea of destructive interference in physics. If you superimpose two sine waves of equal amplitude on each other so that the peaks of one wave coincide with the troughs of the other, you get a flat line. What's interesting about this is that the slightest disturbance to this equilibrium allows the energy of the waves to burst through into activity. You can see this phenomena in turbulent seas where 'flat water' is the most dangerous.

 

The symbol of the Phoenix refers to the phase of creation when form begins to stand out from the Nun waters. Hence the long legged heron who stands out from the wetlands. The cry of its voice is the breaking through into time of the vibration potentials held in the void. The separation of what is to exist form what is not to exist. The word 'exist' itself gives us a clue about this because it literally means ex-ist (out - stand), to stand out from the background. For a form to exist it must stand out form the field of energy which creates it.

 

The name Phoenix comes from a Greek word for 'blue'. When the Egyptians drew the Benu they used a blue pigment, so the Greeks saw a blue bird. The Greeks traded with the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians originally from what we now call the Lebanon (Tyre and Sidon) were a great sea going and trading nation who spread along the North African Mediterranean coast, including their main city of Carthage (see Hannibal). One of the things they traded was a blue dye - hence the connection in the Greek's minds of blue dye with Phoenician - thence Phoenix.

 

As a symbol of the birth of the sun (and creation) the Benu also is a symbol of rebirth. "I go in like a hawk, I come forth as a Phoenix" says the Book of the Dead of the afterlife. Its connection with the sun gives also the connection with heat and flame. Greek writers like Herodotus recounted the story of a bird which rose form the ashes of its fathers funeral pyre (in Heliopolis). The nature of these stories, to me, suggests a Persian connection, or possibly Indian - but I only know the Egyptian side of this. Suffice to say the 'inner' function of the phoenix is to do with renewal and how rebirth occurs after the shedding of the exhausted accumulation of past experience. As a philosopher said (not sure which one) "All universes are formed from the debris of prior universes." It incorporates all the Egyptian ideas/truths about renewal and the cycling of energy.

 

The issue of the Indian/Chinese connection is difficult because there are two possible types of connection. One is historical in the sense of the history of ideas - and I have no idea if such a connection exists. The other is the 'truth' that image of phoenix resonates with an inner function of power (or spirit) which is universal and so you can have phoenix type images cropping up in different cultures and their similarities doesn't necessarily suggest a single historical origin.

 

Dragons? Well depends what you mean. No actual dragons as we know them in Ancient Egypt but plenty of reptilian and amphibian - also composite deities - and perhaps most significantly serpents. Including serpents with legs and wings - which is not far from a dragon really. In the Underworld Books of the New Kingdom, like the Am Dwat you find serpents like Neheb-kau who have legs and wings. (see pic). I know that dragons in the West are sometimes called 'Worms' and 'Serpents' so it is possible that the Egyptian winged serpent was more or less the same thing.

 

 

 

Now in terms of the hawk/scorpion and phoenix/dragon connection I can say this. The serpent Neheb-kau is said to be the son of the scorpion goddess Serket (or Selkis, Serqet). They are both specifically associated with healing, especially the recovery from stings and bites or scorpions and snakes. Serket also has a similar relation to Quebehsenuef, the son of Horus with a hawks head, so you can infer a connection between Neheb-kau and Quebehsenuef. I am not sure what the dragon/phoenix relationship is in Chinese mythology - so I think we have come to the end of my understanding ...

 

... hope this fills some gaps anyway ...

[Yoda]

Apepch7,

 

Awesome... that really helps!! I love getting the history on things!! Plus, as you were typing this, my daughter was painting a grey heron/sunrise scene! I'll have to scan it.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Yoda]

So here's the painting:

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/kylebairdsen/2009#

 

Freya is on the left and her brother Kell Bjarne is on the right and then there's the blue heron at sunrise. Monet is starting to sweat it!!

[gendao]

Dragons? Well depends what you mean. No actual dragons as we know them in Ancient Egypt but plenty of reptilian and amphibian - also composite deities - and perhaps most significantly serpents. Including serpents with legs and wings - which is not far from a dragon really. In the Underworld Books of the New Kingdom, like the Am Dwat you find serpents like Neheb-kau who have legs and wings. (see pic). I know that dragons in the West are sometimes called 'Worms' and 'Serpents' so it is possible that the Egyptian winged serpent was more or less the same thing.

 

Actually, I saw an art exhibit on dragons once in China, and the very first (Neolithic?) depictions were far simpler and more serpentine. In fact, I'm not sure they all even had legs. Wish I had taken some pictures then, but they started out more like curved snakes...that gradually grew more elaborate over the centuries.

I also wonder if it symbolized the attainment of the immortal "Gold Dragon Body":

Banpo site of the Yangshao culture in Shaanxi featured an elongated, snake-like fish motif. Archaeologists believe the "long fish" to have evolved into images of the Chinese dragon. The association with fish is reflected in the legend of a carp that saw the top of a mountain and decided he was going to reach it. He swam upstream, climbing rapids and waterfalls letting nothing get in the way of his determination. When he reached the top there was the mythical "Dragon Gate" and when he jumped over he became a dragon. Several waterfalls and cataracts in China are believed to be the location of the Dragon Gate.

 

South - Imsety - man

North - Hapi - ape

East - Duamutef - jackal

West - Quebehsenuef - hawk

Per me, the Egyptian elemental correspondences are:

 

West/air

South/water

East/fire

North/earth

 

That seems to go against the upward/downward thing, with water being upward S and air being downward W.

To add some more confusion, lol:

four macro constellations which were found in the Chinese Neolithic gravesite are the red bird which belongs to the south, the blue dragon of east, the white tiger of west, and the black turtle of north.

So, you would then have:

 

South - Imsety - man - water - red bird

North - Hapi - ape - earth - black turtle

East - Duamutef - jackal - fire - blue dragon

West - Quebehsenuef - hawk - air - white tiger

Edited February 4, 2009 by vortex

[Apech]

 

 

South - Imsety - man - water - red bird

North - Hapi - ape - earth - black turtle

East - Duamutef - jackal - fire - blue dragon

West - Quebehsenuef - hawk - air - white tiger

 

 

I think correspondences are tricky at the best of times and get harder and harder from culture to culture. Even the Sons of Horus to the elements is difficult. Closest fit is to the four fixed signs of the Zodiac - Scorpio, Taurus, Leo and Aquarius.

[Yoda]

If I understood Apepch7 correctly, the element correspondences that I found in a book is likely to have been hauled in from the world of western alchemy and just thrown in there for flavoring.

 

Interesting about the astrology/direction connection. In "Initiation" Haich talks about the four faces of God that are found in many religions which correspond to the four directions and on top of that the 12 astrology signs represent influences from 12 directions with presumably four of those lining up with the 4 directions. (it's lent out for a few months and I don't remember more than that)

 

Apepch7's: Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, Aquarius could be those four. Their traditional correspondences are

Scorpio-water, Taurus-earth, Leo-fire, Aquarius-Air.

 

I didn't catch which directions Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, and Aquarius are?

 

(hopefully Apepch7 won't tire of this topic! )

[Apech]

If I understood Apepch7 correctly, the element correspondences that I found in a book is likely to have been hauled in from the world of western alchemy and just thrown in there for flavoring.

 

Interesting about the astrology/direction connection. In "Initiation" Haich talks about the four faces of God that are found in many religions which correspond to the four directions and on top of that the 12 astrology signs represent influences from 12 directions with presumably four of those lining up with the 4 directions. (it's lent out for a few months and I don't remember more than that)

 

Apepch7's: Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, Aquarius could be those four. Their traditional correspondences are

Scorpio-water, Taurus-earth, Leo-fire, Aquarius-Air.

 

I didn't catch which directions Scorpio, Taurus, Leo, and Aquarius are?

 

(hopefully Apepch7 won't tire of this topic! )

 

Om Yoda,

 

You have started a cult on the discussion page!

 

Taurus - North

Scorp. - South

Aquarius - West

Leo - East

 

in my understanding.

 

This is from the understanding of the Zodiac as four elements in three phases. The three phases being cardinal, fixed and mutable. The fixed versions being the four compass points. Also the four beasts (bull, eagle, man and lion). For reasons I can't recall Scorpio is transposed into Aquila the Eagle for the purposes. Also the four apostles, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Would have to look up which is which cos I don't do Christian stuff much (!). When I was in Greece the eastern Orthodox iconography used the beasts for the four apostles.

[NeutralWire]

An old astrology teacher of mine swore that a statue in the British museum spoke to him, and someone explained to him that its mouth must have been opened. It was Sekhmet. He lives in the states now but she still speaks to him!

 

BTW The Bardon system has a way of enlivening statues and pictures using elemental energies. But no directions! (Because they are stacked by densities, Robert Fludd style.)

 

Interesting (to me) is the fact that Isis and Nephthys appear on the cover of Bardon's second book:

 

 

(the two portraits on the wall.)

 

BTW Glenn Morris told me he met Nephthys. "Yeah, she's still around..." He was very impressed with her. lol.

 

Yoda -

 

Do the Egyptians do "hours" or something similar that have correspondences?

 

They had the decans. When did they get those? I don't know. They're mentioned in the Hermetica.

 

From your last bit apepch7, are you thinking that cardinal/fixed/mutable triplicity was something the Egyptians themselves had?

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

[Apech]

An old astrology teacher of mine swore that a statue in the British museum spoke to him, and someone explained to him that its mouth must have been opened. It was Sekhmet. He lives in the states now but she still speaks to him!

 

BTW The Bardon system has a way of enlivening statues and pictures using elemental energies. But no directions! (Because they are stacked by densities, Robert Fludd style.)

 

Interesting (to me) is the fact that Isis and Nephthys appear on the cover of Bardon's second book:

 

 

 

(the two portraits on the wall.)

 

BTW Glenn Morris told me he met Nephthys. "Yeah, she's still around..." He was very impressed with her. lol.

 

Yoda -

They had the decans. When did they get those? I don't know. They're mentioned in the Hermetica.

 

From your last bit apepch7, are you thinking that cardinal/fixed/mutable triplicity was something the Egyptians themselves had?

 

All best wishes,

 

~NeutralWire~

 

 

 

Hi

 

 

There are quite a few statues in the Brit. Mus. and other places that will speak to you, or at least appear to breathe and move if gazed at. Sakhmet being a popular one - although I have read some accounts which suggest to me that some people are not listening properly and only hear what they want to!

 

Nephthys is cool! Her name which has been translated as 'Lady of the house' is a bit misleading because people think she is some kind of housewife or domestic servant. Actually the 'house' word 'Hwt' means the temple enclosure or grounds, that is the sacred space. So Nephthys is really the High Priestess ... as in card 2 in the Tarot, while Isis is the Empress. All the gods are still around if you remember them ... which is the way that the Egyptians saw doing service to the Netjerw. (see the Tale of Shipwrecked Sailor).

 

The decan stars date from at least the 9th Dynasty (so early Middle Kingdom) but are almost certainly older. They purely a way of measuring time and were not used for astrology (except that everything was divine in Egypt of course). There are examples of what they call diagonal star charts which list the decan stars and they are also shown in some tombs (e.g. Senmut) and also are in some larger 'books' such as the Book of Nut. Basically after the sun set stars would rise above the eastern horizon and become visible. The Egyptians identified lists of sequences of twelve stars which would mark out the beginning each of the night hours as the rose. (later the time at which they reached the midheaven was used instead). Now because of precession and so on, each star list would only be in sequence for 10 days (the Egyptian week). After that the next star in the sequence would become the first and so on. In all there were 36 of these stars and so the full year was 10X36 = 360 days plus 5 extra days (ordained by Thoth). As there were 36 decan stars they were spaced (roughly) at 10 degrees in the heavens. It is the figures representing these stars which you see round the Dendera ceiling for instance. The reason that measuring the night time was so important to the Egyptians was that this was when the sun god was passing through the underworld. At certain hours, especially the 6th hour (midnight) the sun was at risk and so the priesthood would perform protection rituals. So they had to know the time at night accurately.

 

 

 

The way I was taught about the elements and the zodiac was this. Each element exists in three phases. The cardinal is when it is in its 'free' state or it is pure and unfettered. For instance the element fire (which is closest to spirit) exists as a free moving energy which literally zooms in and out of situations without let or hindrance. This is symbolised by the Ram, Aries. Both the wavy horns (like pure sine wave energy) and the behaviour of actual rams influenced this symbology. When this energy encounters opposition to free movement it focusses in the fire element and compacts into a fiery ball (the sun) which is the fixed version of this element (or Leo the sun ruled lion sign). Because the energy is essentially free it does not completely implode (which would be like a black hole) but begins to vibrate between its original free state and its condensed state, this vibration is its mutability and is symbolised by Sagittarius the archer. The same can be said of air, water and earth. They all move from an original pure or free state, to a state of bound fixity and then begin to vibrate between the two.

 

This is the only way the zodiac makes sense for me. However it is not really Egyptian as the zodiac was an 'import' for them. Though there are parallels of course.

 

Cheers

 

A.

Edited February 18, 2009 by apepch7

[Hugo_M]

An old astrology teacher of mine swore that a statue in the British museum spoke to him, and someone explained to him that its mouth must have been opened. It was Sekhmet. He lives in the states now but she still speaks to him!

 

 

WOW HEHEHEHEHE now really magic begun

[NeutralWire]

Fascinating info on the decans particularly... by the time of the Hermetica they were being thought of in similar terms to the astrology of the planets etc. They're said to have great influence over the earth and the fates of nations, to have servants, ministers and warriors, and to be the cosmic engine of the universe.

 

There's an interesting enigma that probably will never be resolved in Hermes' talk on the decans. He mentions that they 'cast in the earth the seed of those whom men call Tanes'... no-one knows who the Tanes are though! G.R.S. Mead connected them with Titanas or Titans... anyway, whoever they were, some of them 'played the part of saviours' whilst others were 'most destructive'.

 

?? Anyway the decans in the Hellenistic period were clearly being described a little differently...

 

NW

[Apech]

Fascinating info on the decans particularly... by the time of the Hermetica they were being thought of in similar terms to the astrology of the planets etc. They're said to have great influence over the earth and the fates of nations, to have servants, ministers and warriors, and to be the cosmic engine of the universe.

 

There's an interesting enigma that probably will never be resolved in Hermes' talk on the decans. He mentions that they 'cast in the earth the seed of those whom men call Tanes'... no-one knows who the Tanes are though! G.R.S. Mead connected them with Titanas or Titans... anyway, whoever they were, some of them 'played the part of saviours' whilst others were 'most destructive'.

 

?? Anyway the decans in the Hellenistic period were clearly being described a little differently...

 

NW

 

 

Yes, I suppose I should have been more precise in saying that there was no overt use of the decans as astrology (i.e. determining fate/influencing life and so on) that I know of until the Late Period which was heavily influenced by Greek, Mesopotamian and Persian thought. However the point about the Egyptians is that they did not really distinguish between the divine and the profane in the way we (or the Greeks) do. When Egyptologists look for indications of either astrology or indeed astronomy (in the sense that we understand it today) they fail to find it. What they do see is a) a developed use of stars and constellations for time keeping and calendars b ) the association of certain stars and constellations with certain gods and c) the general sense that everything to do with the sky was significant - this included the flights of migratory birds as well as stars and so on.

 

To the Egyptians sky=heaven=Nut (although they did have the word 'pt' for sky as well), the fabric of the world was made from the gods or the souls of gods and the gods were as part of creation as we are. So I think if you think like this then everything is counted in as being significant. So it would not be surprising that each hour of the day was considered as influencing life below - which leads naturally to the idea of the decans in astrology. What was missing until the Late period was the 'science' or techniques of astrology horoscopes and so on - though I believe that they were enthusiastically embraced once they emerged.

 

I think this approach of counting everything as significant transfers to Hermetic thought which I see as quite eclectic. A kind of 'if it works - use it' approach with the kind of pragmatic 'suck it and see' or 'work it out for yourself' philosophy. That is not to say that it is like some kind of everything goes New Agey mess but more an openness to the variety of form that exists and a willingness to draw on the different traditions which were available. So Hermeticism successfully draws on influences from the ancient world, Christianity, Islam, alchemy, gnosticism and so on. In the modern age we can add yoga, Buddhism, Taoism and so on. The trick is not to mix form in a way which leads to inconsistencies - this can lead to a lot of difficulty because of the mis-direction of mental/emotional/spiritual energies.

Edited February 18, 2009 by apepch7

[NeutralWire]

'the fabric of the world was made from the gods or the souls of gods and the gods were as part of creation as we are'... hmm yes.

 

Hermetics obviously holds this attitude, principally because, well, isn't it the truth of the way things actually are lol?

 

Essentially you are talking about the divinity of matter, and this is the necessary difference you see between an 'alchemical' approach and one which, so to speak, places the divine 'elsewhere' -- is that right? As in, it becomes a question of whether the physical world is immanently divine?

 

It's interesting because at the same time I personally feel very conscious of the fact that there is a separation or border as well, to do with the ability to see the divinity of matter (sense it) or not -- as in having astral sensoria or whatever boring non-poetic term one wants to use! It seems to me that every spiritual sage in every tradition has a vision of the way the earthly is fed by the divine, but some choose to honour the otherness of the nonphysical more than its presence... these things perhaps become a matter of wording in the end, but that wording influences an entire culture.

 

Looking at, say, the Hebrew attitude to nature ('every blade of grass has an angel bending over it who whispers, grow, grow...') you see the divinity as something essentially outside the natural world and bringing it pass, but not actually incarnated in it in the way you are talking about.

 

 

I personally don't see Hermetics as being quite so opportunistically syncretistic as you do... but whatever!

 

NW

[Apech]

 

I personally don't see Hermetics as being quite so opportunistically syncretistic as you do... but whatever!

 

NW

 

I have Wikipedia on my side:

 

The books now known as the Corpus Hermeticum were part of a renaissance of syncretistic and intellectualized pagan thought that took place around the 2nd century. Other examples of this cultural movement would include Neoplatonist philosophy, the Chaldaean Oracles, late Orphic and Pythagorean literature, as well as much of Gnosticism.

 

 

... hang on though - that probably means I'm wrong!

 

Actually I didn't mean to imply opportunism but the person I learned a lot of this under was very much into 'use whatever comes up' and he had an encyclopediac knowledge of almost every system. Also I notice Bardon quotes Alexandra David Neel(e?) amongst others - so I think he was 'borrowing'.