Can We Transcend Lust?

[ddilulo_06]

With all this talk about celibacy/retention, I wonder if we're hacking at the leaves instead of striking at the root.

 

Can we ever get to a point where we transcend lust?

 

I hear of enlightened masters sometimes never having sex. Have they transcended lust, or are they merely very disciplined?

 

If you are someone who had lust in the past, but have now transcended it (and you aren't bullshitting yourself ) would you mind telling us how you did it? I'm not talking about managing lust, I'm talking about completely stepping out of lust consciousness so discipline isn't necessary. In the long run, I'm not willing to be disciplined in this area. I'm a healthy 20-year-old and celebacy jus' don't feel right!

 

Resources would be appreciated as well.

Edited November 4, 2008 by ddilulo_06

[Yuen Biao]

The question might be 'should' we transcend lust? I mean in terms of balance sex/lust is just part of our existence surely?

 

However, as a westerner it is very different when you see and hear subliminal messages that convey sex all the time; and therein lies the problem.

[mantis]

The question might be 'should' we transcend lust? I mean in terms of balance sex/lust is just part of our existence surely?

 

However, as a westerner it is very different when you see and hear subliminal messages that convey sex all the time; and therein lies the problem.

 

almost every single prophet that has come to our world has mentioned lust, and it's never in a good way; don't fool yourself thinking it's alright just because it's widespread.

 

i think the taoist sexual practices can help with this, if practiced with retention, at which point you usually drop them i'd believe.

[wudangquan]

This is what I don't understand about the Tao Bums and it's relation to Taoism . . .

 

Should we or should we not transcend lust?

 

The key issue is not whether or not lust is a natural human condition, but whether or not conditioned human existence is a natural, true or original condition.

 

Part of the problem is that people are lazy and want to remain human.

 

Part of the problem is that very low level people are teaching in public who haven't even attempted to address the true refinement of their own essence and life so that they don't really know what they're talking about. Neither do they have an even medium level understanding of what alchemy "is".

 

Part of the problem is that Taoist cultivation has been "materialized" to the point where it's not even cultivation on any sort of level.

 

. . .

 

It's a pitiful state of affairs, I think.

 

I should mention that I have NOT transcended lust. I have gotten to a point where I can manage it, and feel like I am able to do that very well, but have not completely assimilated that part of myself to the Tao.

 

This is where Yin and Yang really come into play in my own cultivation.

 

I have to be aggressive in eliminating the conditioned parts of myself, and aggressive with cultivating life, but the moments when I am "in" my true essence, it's time to be yin and preserve that.

 

For me it's not about my jism, my saliva, or anything like that much. How could Semen help me become enlightened? It's conditioned material just like dirt. It can't.

 

The Jing that I try to preserve is something different.

 

How do you transcend lust?

 

You diligently put it down. When you feel it arising, you diligently stop it. For me I use a certain mudra set and a Taoist mantra that my teacher gave me.

 

I also try to realize that lust is a constraint on my enlightenment and development. I just try to be conscious about what it does to me.

 

Speaking of which, I want to point to an article I wrote a while ago on something nearly similar to this subject:

 

http://taoisttraining.com/taoism/Taoist-Te...onstraints.html

 

IMHO, all of the qigong or this and that technique in teh world won't make much difference if you don't address your fundamental conditioned, human attachments.

 

CAVEAT: Please understand that I am speaking only from my experience and beliefs, and about my own specific situation and not anyone elses.

 

Maybe it benefits you greatly to sit around masturbating all day. For me, it doesn't.

Edited November 4, 2008 by wudangquan

[Sloppy Zhang]

I used to be a very... um... active person... but recently stopped, working on the retention thing.

 

It's hard for a while, immediately after you stop. I'd say a week or two after it is the hardest thing, but I guess what makes it harder is when you keep thinking about it. You really can't just change your physical habits, you have to change your mental habits as well. You've got to realize what base desire is and how it really doesn't even fulfill a purpose. Love between who people is a good thing (IMHO), lusting after someone for mere physical satisfaction really doesn't get you anywhere and doesn't elevate you above the status of... well... an animal I guess.

 

If you change your physical patterns, but not your thoughts, you will revert back. Once you change your thought pattern, even if you try to physically do it, you won't be going anywhere and you'll eventually stop. You pretty much just have to ask yourself what you really want, where you want to be on your journey, how far you want to progress and whatnot.

[wudangquan]

I also wanted to mention my opinion on literally "Transcending" rather than managing lust or any other human attachments . . .

 

For me, this goes back to the states vs. levels discussion.

 

You have to be diligent about pulling yourself out of a "state" of lust whenever you feel it beginning to arise.

 

The more you are in and the more you have access to a state (lust free"ness" or selfish free"ness") the easier it is to reach that "level", wherein it's just natural and doesn't require any work.

 

First it's Yang then it's Yin.

[三江源]

.

Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[Yuen Biao]

almost every single prophet that has come to our world has mentioned lust, and it's never in a good way; don't fool yourself thinking it's alright just because it's widespread.

 

I never said it was! Who's fooling who?

However I was merely stipulating that it is indeed part of our existence and should not be completely disregarded, controlled and checked yes.

[mantis]

This is what I don't understand about the Tao Bums and it's relation to Taoism . . .

 

Should we or should we not transcend lust?

 

The key issue is not whether or not lust is a natural human condition, but whether or not conditioned human existence is a natural, true or original condition.

 

Part of the problem is that people are lazy and want to remain human.

 

Part of the problem is that very low level people are teaching in public who haven't even attempted to address the true refinement of their own essence and life so that they don't really know what they're talking about. Neither do they have an even medium level understanding of what alchemy "is".

 

Part of the problem is that Taoist cultivation has been "materialized" to the point where it's not even cultivation on any sort of level.

 

. . .

 

It's a pitiful state of affairs, I think.

 

I should mention that I have NOT transcended lust. I have gotten to a point where I can manage it, and feel like I am able to do that very well, but have not completely assimilated that part of myself to the Tao.

 

This is where Yin and Yang really come into play in my own cultivation.

 

I have to be aggressive in eliminating the conditioned parts of myself, and aggressive with cultivating life, but the moments when I am "in" my true essence, it's time to be yin and preserve that.

 

For me it's not about my jism, my saliva, or anything like that much. How could Semen help me become enlightened? It's conditioned material just like dirt. It can't.

 

The Jing that I try to preserve is something different.

 

How do you transcend lust?

 

You diligently put it down. When you feel it arising, you diligently stop it. For me I use a certain mudra set and a Taoist mantra that my teacher gave me.

 

I also try to realize that lust is a constraint on my enlightenment and development. I just try to be conscious about what it does to me.

 

Speaking of which, I want to point to an article I wrote a while ago on something nearly similar to this subject:

 

http://taoisttraining.com/taoism/Taoist-Te...onstraints.html

 

IMHO, all of the qigong or this and that technique in teh world won't make much difference if you don't address your fundamental conditioned, human attachments.

 

CAVEAT: Please understand that I am speaking only from my experience and beliefs, and about my own specific situation and not anyone elses.

 

Maybe it benefits you greatly to sit around masturbating all day. For me, it doesn't.

 

i agree 110%

[Unconditioned]

With all this talk about celibacy/retention, I wonder if we're hacking at the leaves instead of striking at the root.

 

Can we ever get to a point where we transcend lust?

 

I hear of enlightened masters sometimes never having sex. Have they transcended lust, or are they merely very disciplined?

 

If you are someone who had lust in the past, but have now transcended it (and you aren't bullshitting yourself ) would you mind telling us how you did it? I'm not talking about managing lust, I'm talking about completely stepping out of lust consciousness so discipline isn't necessary. In the long run, I'm not willing to be disciplined in this area. I'm a healthy 20-year-old and celebacy jus' don't feel right!

 

Resources would be appreciated as well.

 

Hmm. For me it's not about transcending lust it's about transforming it. What I mean is, when you feel a strong desire for something - be it sexual or not - we are generating energy. For example, when a very attractive person enters a room we may feel a surge of energy in our naval center. When that happens, I focus on the energy not on thoughts about the person.

 

I have no idea if this is good, bad, or otherwise but I've come to appreciate the 'gift' that I get when I feel that surge and it transforms my thoughts from desire to gratitude. I could just be fooling myself but for me it at least prevents or stops the chain of thoughts that would normally arise in that situation.

[Yuen Biao]

Hmm. For me it's not about transcending lust it's about transforming it. What I mean is, when you feel a strong desire for something - be it sexual or not - we are generating energy. For example, when a very attractive person enters a room we may feel a surge of energy in our naval center. When that happens, I focus on the energy not on thoughts about the person.

 

I have no idea if this is good, bad, or otherwise but I've come to appreciate the 'gift' that I get when I feel that surge and it transforms my thoughts from desire to gratitude. I could just be fooling myself but for me it at least prevents or stops the chain of thoughts that would normally arise in that situation.

 

I think in the least the acknowledgment of such a 'feeling' is indeed a good thing which in turn can greatly improve one's all-round awareness. The 'dantien' is so powerful and we should be aware of this point as much as is possible, in my humble opinion.

[Apech]

What is lust?

 

 

Indiscriminate sexual pleasure seeking ?

 

 

I think there may be a confusion on this thread between tackling lust as a potentially destructive and selfish act and energy conservation for a 'higher' purpose. I don't think cultivation is about suppressing or stopping sexual feelings, rather it is about using this energy in a different way and not squandering it in a way that harms or disrespects self or others or is just wasteful.

 

Obviously there is a struggle when we start to use this energy differently but I think we have to learn about it first. This means that if we don't understand this energy but simply try to repress it we are storing up problems for the future.

[Unconditioned]

I used to be a very... um... active person... but recently stopped, working on the retention thing.

 

It's hard for a while, immediately after you stop. I'd say a week or two after it is the hardest thing, but I guess what makes it harder is when you keep thinking about it. You really can't just change your physical habits, you have to change your mental habits as well. You've got to realize what base desire is and how it really doesn't even fulfill a purpose. Love between who people is a good thing (IMHO), lusting after someone for mere physical satisfaction really doesn't get you anywhere and doesn't elevate you above the status of... well... an animal I guess.

 

If you change your physical patterns, but not your thoughts, you will revert back. Once you change your thought pattern, even if you try to physically do it, you won't be going anywhere and you'll eventually stop. You pretty much just have to ask yourself what you really want, where you want to be on your journey, how far you want to progress and whatnot.

 

This reminds me of a story. I will shorten it a bit so that it's manageable to read. This is from Sri Paramahamsa Nithyananda.

 

A man who was seeking siddhis had been asking an enlightened master over and over to give him some special powers. After a while the master finally responded to him and said "Here, take this vial and drink it when you are at home and it will grant you special powers." The man was elated and turned to leave. Just then the master said one more thing "Oh, also, you must not think of monkey when you drink this. If you do have the thought of a monkey you will need to bathe before drinking the potion."

 

The man got home and just as he was about to drink the potion he thought "I must not think about monkey". Just then he realized that he had thought about the monkey so he went and took a bath. He got out of the bath, picked up the vial and immediately he thought "I must not think about the monkey" and ran into the bath again.

 

After a few hours went by the only think he could think about was the monkey! He returned to the master and said "I do not want special powers! Just get the monkey out of my mind!"

 

So, the point of this is: if you are trying to overcome lust you cannot do it by thinking "I must stop thinking about lust" just by doing that you are giving it more power over you. The way to overcome the thoughts is instead of thinking in the negative (no lust) think in the positive - "They are beautiful" "She is the same being at the core as I am" "He seems happy, good for him."

 

By changing our habits and removing the samskara/imprint/engram of 'lust' from our minds it will lose it's grip over us.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

All the best,

-Nate

 

Edit: changed the font so it was easier to read.

 

Edit 2: This is in addition to my above post - the combination of removing the thought of 'lust' as a concept/samskara/etc. used together with feeling the natural energy that emerges is how I have 'dealt' with this personally. I feel much more free than I did a few years ago when lustful thoughts seemed to consume a good deal of my time.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Unconditioned

[三江源]

.

Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[wudangquan]

Indiscriminate sexual pleasure seeking ?

I think there may be a confusion on this thread between tackling lust as a potentially destructive and selfish act and energy conservation for a 'higher' purpose. I don't think cultivation is about suppressing or stopping sexual feelings, rather it is about using this energy in a different way and not squandering it in a way that harms or disrespects self or others or is just wasteful.

 

Obviously there is a struggle when we start to use this energy differently but I think we have to learn about it first. This means that if we don't understand this energy but simply try to repress it we are storing up problems for the future.

 

 

Hi Apech,

 

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more.

 

Lust is a desire for and leads to the pursuit of gross phenominalogical experience and material delusion.

 

Lao Zi said:

 

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

 

 

 

To transform the effect is not enough (I believe). You have to eliminate the causality of material delusion.

 

He also said:

 

Fill your bowl to the brim

and it will spill.

Keep sharpening your knife

and it will blunt.

Chase after money and security

and your heart will never unclench.

Care about people's approval

and you will be their prisoner.

 

Do your work, then step back.

The only path to serenity.

 

I believe that this fill your bowl and that sharpening your knife are directly applicable to semen retention.

 

How do you eliminate lust by encouraging lustfullness? By transforming the secondary manifestations? I believe in the end you dull your blade and loose MUCH, MUCH more Jing than you ever conserved.

 

Similarly, I don't believe that Taoism uses mutual male/female cultivation as we are all in posession of both yin and yang elements (I bring this up because some famous teachers encourage this):

 

Ordinary men hate solitude.

But the Master makes use of it,

embracing his aloneness, realizing

he is one with the whole universe.

 

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were meaning, Apech. I'm often mistaken.

 

In general I believe that these practices initially lead to frustration, and eventually can take you no where but towards more sorrow and suffering.

 

My belief and underestanding is that it's necessary to eliminate the root of the problem (conditioned desire and material attachments) and that dealing with the secondary or tertiary manifestations doesn't in fact deal with the core issue.

 

This is why (as I understand it) it takes so long for people to reach enlightenment or even higher levels in their cultivation.

 

The work and work and work for years to develop potential, but never eliminate their constraints.

 

Then, after years and years have gone by and they find themselves old, exhausted, and time has naturallly worn away their attachments - Bam! it happens.

 

But by addressing the funadmental causes of suffering head on and in an upright way we are able to ascend in a more direct and efficient way.

 

For me - I have these scant few years in this life. Better to be diligent and do my best to step out of humanness than to compare myself with the achievements of others, or pruning back the branches of untruth rather than taking an axe to the roots.

 

All that said - I am not so sucessful. I am still lost in the same untruth as everybody else but my feelings on this issue - it's something I want to share with other people since not many other people are talking this way.

[Apech]

Hi Apech,

 

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more.

 

Lust is a desire for and leads to the pursuit of gross phenominalogical experience and material delusion.

 

Lao Zi said:

 

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

To transform the effect is not enough (I believe). You have to eliminate the causality of material delusion.

 

He also said:

 

Fill your bowl to the brim

and it will spill.

Keep sharpening your knife

and it will blunt.

Chase after money and security

and your heart will never unclench.

Care about people's approval

and you will be their prisoner.

 

Do your work, then step back.

The only path to serenity.

 

I believe that this fill your bowl and that sharpening your knife are directly applicable to semen retention.

 

How do you eliminate lust by encouraging lustfullness? By transforming the secondary manifestations? I believe in the end you dull your blade and loose MUCH, MUCH more Jing than you ever conserved.

 

Similarly, I don't believe that Taoism uses mutual male/female cultivation as we are all in posession of both yin and yang elements (I bring this up because some famous teachers encourage this):

 

Ordinary men hate solitude.

But the Master makes use of it,

embracing his aloneness, realizing

he is one with the whole universe.

 

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were meaning, Apech. I'm often mistaken.

 

In general I believe that these practices initially lead to frustration, and eventually can take you no where but towards more sorrow and suffering.

 

My belief and underestanding is that it's necessary to eliminate the root of the problem (conditioned desire and material attachments) and that dealing with the secondary or tertiary manifestations doesn't in fact deal with the core issue.

 

This is why (as I understand it) it takes so long for people to reach enlightenment or even higher levels in their cultivation.

 

The work and work and work for years to develop potential, but never eliminate their constraints.

 

Then, after years and years have gone by and they find themselves old, exhausted, and time has naturallly worn away their attachments - Bam! it happens.

 

But by addressing the funadmental causes of suffering head on and in an upright way we are able to ascend in a more direct and efficient way.

 

For me - I have these scant few years in this life. Better to be diligent and do my best to step out of humanness than to compare myself with the achievements of others, or pruning back the branches of untruth rather than taking an axe to the roots.

 

All that said - I am not so sucessful. I am still lost in the same untruth as everybody else but my feelings on this issue - it's something I want to share with other people since not many other people are talking this way.

 

 

Respect to you Wudang,

 

I totally accept the proposition that desire/lust is a cause of confusion and ignorance and leads to scattering and so on. But I believe in being 'in the world if not of the world'. For some maybe cutting themselves off is a productive and helpful approach but I know that to understand myself and eliminate my faults I need to be in relation to others (not necessarily sexual of course ). I know if I lived a monkish existence there would be blind spots in my experience and ability (even more than there are now!) - even though I often yearn for solitude.

 

Can we transcend lust - yes! but not by pretending it doesn't exist and not without that greater power - love.

 

However, I have to say in humility - what do I know? I just do my best.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Apepch7.

[Ian]

What is lust?

 

Thinking about sex.

 

Basically.

 

Absent, not now, wanting, striving, thinking. Abstract, heated.

[gossamer]

I'm a MALE.

 

I think that LOOKING at a female and thinking that she has a nice body, and that I find her attractive, is just a part of Dao.

 

It's the Yin Yang thing, it's part of who WE REALLY ARE.

 

Now, if I develop a plan to go and somehow try to meet this female to have sex with her, THAT'S *LUST*.

 

We are who we are, and in Dao we become who we become, and handling energy is all a part of this.

 

Tell me that any man here does NOT KNOW just when he is "lusting".

 

Come on, I've lived 57 years now, and I know the ins and outs of being a man.

 

SO DO YOU!

 

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited November 4, 2008 by gossamer

[phore]

hmm how to transcend lust.

Look at the object of your lust.

See how bewilderingly beautiful it is.

lose yourself in it. find the tao in lust.

its sort of like sandblasting a pretzel.

[doc benway]

hmm how to transcend lust.

Look at the object of your lust.

See how bewilderingly beautiful it is.

lose yourself in it. find the tao in lust.

its sort of like sandblasting a pretzel.

I like that!

_/\_

[Apech]

---------

Edited November 5, 2008 by apepch7

[Anabhogya-Carya]

almost every single prophet that has come to our world has mentioned lust, and it's never in a good way; don't fool yourself thinking it's alright just because it's widespread.

 

i think the taoist sexual practices can help with this, if practiced with retention, at which point you usually drop them i'd believe.

 

Do not think it is not alright jsut because "prophets" said so.

[ddilulo_06]

DarrinHammel, I know you haven't masturbated since like 1994. Has it just been discipline, or have you transcended lust completely to the point where you don't have feelings of needing to take care of yourself sexually?

 

Anyone else?

[ddilulo_06]

The answer is love... I'm seeing this more and more.

 

...When is it not?

[rookie]

I would contrast lust, based in the mind, and bodily feelings. One is perfectly natural and the other is the problem you want to overcome.