Internal Cultivation

[Spirit Ape]

Ok, ive been reading alot of peoples post and different systems and was thinking some people use the same methods some different and some totally out there!

 

My question is: What do you feel is the most important methods of developing Qi in the body be it Dan Tians, chakras if you believe in that or something way out there?

 

Spirit Ape

[adam mizner]

hi, seeing as there are no answers i will give one

 

in my view it is completely unneeded to develop chi in the body. everything is energy and it can be tapped into at any time in an instant, so no need to develop or store chi. in my training we learn to tap into or manafest chi in the form of the 4 basic elements. these energies can be drawn on from the world around you or in you or at a higher level staight out of emptiness. i have also found that when storing energy it is best to avoid chakras or dan tiens as this creates an imbalance in the astral body, any form od storing is a bad idea if you have not mastered your defilements. but hey why store?? i am sure others will not agree, all good.

 

metta

adam

 

Ok, ive been reading alot of peoples post and different systems and was thinking some people use the same methods some different and some totally out there!

 

My question is: What do you feel is the most important methods of developing Qi in the body be it Dan Tians, chakras if you believe in that or something way out there?

 

Spirit Ape

[Spirit Ape]

hey, thanks for your reply!

 

Interesting as you come from Taiji chuan background and not using Dan Tian method? Can you tell us more about your elements and how you tap into those energies?

 

There are so many Daoist textv regarding Dan Tian do you feel Dan Tian is a lower level to what you are doing these days?

 

I feel the Dan Tian has more usages then storing!

 

thanks in advance...

 

Ape

[Tao99]

good question spirit ape. Ah yes the elixir fields. What would Taoism be without its Dan Tiens. Surely not Taoism anymore. Furnace, cauldrons, meridians, spirit released from the matrix, I sit and forget.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Tao99

[goldisheavy]

hi, seeing as there are no answers i will give one

 

in my view it is completely unneeded to develop chi in the body. everything is energy and it can be tapped into at any time in an instant, so no need to develop or store chi. in my training we learn to tap into or manafest chi in the form of the 4 basic elements. these energies can be drawn on from the world around you or in you or at a higher level staight out of emptiness. i have also found that when storing energy it is best to avoid chakras or dan tiens as this creates an imbalance in the astral body, any form od storing is a bad idea if you have not mastered your defilements. but hey why store?? i am sure others will not agree, all good.

 

metta

adam

 

Adam, I agree with you completely.

 

SpiritApe,

 

May I suggest that you reword your question in English, and let us start over. Please ask in English. I have a feeling that behind your usages of the Chinese terms lies a big mass of ignorance which will become instantly exposed once you translate everything into English. So what do you want? Please state it in English.

[h.uriahr]

The lower dantien is an energy warehouse. People use it many different ways but that doesnt mean you can fill it like a bowl. I think depending upon your wants and needs the dantien will be viewed differently. You can sit there and say the energy is just waiting to be tapped into which is fine and true but it's more than tapping the source, it's tapping and using.

[Tao99]

Adam, I agree with you completely.

 

SpiritApe,

 

May I suggest that you reword your question in English, and let us start over. Please ask in English. I have a feeling that behind your usages of the Chinese terms lies a big mass of ignorance which will become instantly exposed once you translate everything into English. So what do you want? Please state it in English.

 

He obviously knows like most studied Taoists what dantien is, as he mentioned its use in tai chi. Why are you always so superiorly negative and damning? You speak with such certain and superior authority around here, but you never heard of this? The exposed ignorance is yours.

 

Saying "there is no need to develop and store chi" is probably the funniest thing I've ever heard on a Taoist forum.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Tao99

[fizix]

The Dan Tien IS an the focal area of energy allocation in the human body; it's application is countless, even though it actually is far more than just an 'application'. For example, if I am feeling groggy, I will prematurely try to fuse yin and yang (not intending to actually do so) by simultaneously pushing down my Dan Tien and pulling up my perineum (yin chi accumulation) and subsequently get my socks rocked with just RIDICULOUS energy that lasts for hours. Unfortunately, it is somewhat hard to do this in public without looking like I am having somewhat of a seizure/tremor attack, though I can pull it off, but I get far better results after a few hours of meditating; you feel like you were struck by lightning, energy wise, but it's great

[Spirit Ape]

LMAO Gold, sorry my engrish isnt as good as yours but my questions and answers are what they are simple!

 

I think what Adam said is interesting and i think will have a good discussion on this thread as he is bringing something different to it.

 

Ape

[sheng zhen]

There are many ways of internal cultivation. With many different goals. So I would say there is no right or wrong.

 

Obviously, if you do internal alchemy the taoist way you need to fill the Dan Tien with qi. If you do any other internal cultivation you do other stuff.

[adam mizner]

hi

 

yes i feel that the dantien method is a lower method. i also think that this view is shared by some in the daoist schools, lui ming for example. in practice energy will find ways to express itself, be used up or simply fade. in my view the work should be put into the mind rather than energy, that said i have done much energy work. as far as taiji goes i dont use the dantien, i try to make emptiness my centre. this makes it much harder to find and much harder to move. but i am not a traditionalist in taiji so sure i am wrong from many points of view. mind leads chi, chi leads body. cultivation of the causes gets the best results.

 

as for how i tap into these energies, well they are there at our desposal, just need the mind training to use them.

 

metta

adam

 

hey, thanks for your reply!

 

Interesting as you come from Taiji chuan background and not using Dan Tian method? Can you tell us more about your elements and how you tap into those energies?

 

There are so many Daoist textv regarding Dan Tian do you feel Dan Tian is a lower level to what you are doing these days?

 

I feel the Dan Tian has more usages then storing!

 

thanks in advance...

 

Ape

 

 

yes you can just sit there and say...... but i dont know much about philosophy.

metta

adam

 

The lower dantien is an energy warehouse. People use it many different ways but that doesnt mean you can fill it like a bowl. I think depending upon your wants and needs the dantien will be viewed differently. You can sit there and say the energy is just waiting to be tapped into which is fine and true but it's more than tapping the source, it's tapping and using.

 

 

it depends on what these terms mean in your model. i for one am all for sitting and forgetting.

 

metta

adam

 

good question spirit ape. Ah yes the elixir fields. What would Taoism be without its Dan Tiens. Surely not Taoism anymore. Furnace, cauldrons, meridians, spirit released from the matrix, I sit and forget.

[Tao99]

hi

 

yes i feel that the dantien method is a lower method. i also think that this view is shared by some in the daoist schools, lui ming for example. in practice energy will find ways to express itself, be used up or simply fade. in my view the work should be put into the mind

 

yes you can just sit there and say...... but i dont know much about philosophy.

metta

adam

it depends on what these terms mean in your model. i for one am all for sitting and forgetting.

 

metta

adam

You are mixing Buddhism into Taoism and in the process completely misunderstanding and misrepresenting Taoism. This happens a lot on this website. Why do Buddhists here seem so hell bent on converting Taoists to Buddhism.

 

Above you said you "tap into the 4 elements". In Taoism there are 5 "elements" wu xing, the five agents, and you don't tap into them, you harmonize them.

 

You say Liu I-Ming says the"dantien method" is a lower method. That is a gross misunderstanding:

 

"... from beginning to end, doing and not doing, culling medicine and working the fire, crystallizing the pill, and freeing it from the matrix - the Tao is not to be left for a moment." Liu I-Ming

 

You say you don't know much about (Taoist) philosophy, and want me to define the basic terms for you:

 

"If you do not understand the celestial mechanism, stop spouting off in front of people." Liu I-Ming

 

Since you don't understand these basics, you should stick to describing Buddhism, and leave describing Taoism to the Taoists.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Tao99

[doc benway]

in my view it is completely unneeded to develop chi in the body. everything is energy and it can be tapped into at any time in an instant, so no need to develop or store chi.

I have a similar viewpoint.

 

My way of understanding qi is that it is not stuff, it is process. I feel it more as what happens when awareness meets "substance" or "physicality" if you will. So developing qi to me is developing a new awareness, a different sense, outside of the normal five. So I can't have more or less qi - I am what I am. I can't store it or lose it, but I can be more in tune to an awareness of my physical manifestation and movement and surroundings and so forth.

 

I find this awareness to be very important in Taijiquan. In fact, I believe this is exactly the reason for the Taiji method of slow form, development of sensitivity, and so one. It is this awareness which allows us to be sensitive which allows us to yield and so on. It's also this awareness that allows us to develop proper posture and timing which is so critical in fajin and other martial skills. Finally, Daoist meditation techniques are an elegant and effective method for developing this awareness. They integrate with Taiji and other martial arts perfectly. This is why so many accomplished Taiji players emphasize the importance of meditation.

 

I am coming at this from a martial perspective here but it's equally applicable to non-martial avocations.

[dwai]

I have a similar viewpoint.

 

My way of understanding qi is that it is not stuff, it is process. I feel it more as what happens when awareness meets "substance" or "physicality" if you will. So developing qi to me is developing a new awareness, a different sense, outside of the normal five. So I can't have more or less qi - I am what I am. I can't store it or lose it, but I can be more in tune to an awareness of my physical manifestation and movement and surroundings and so forth.

 

I find this awareness to be very important in Taijiquan. In fact, I believe this is exactly the reason for the Taiji method of slow form, development of sensitivity, and so one. It is this awareness which allows us to be sensitive which allows us to yield and so on. It's also this awareness that allows us to develop proper posture and timing which is so critical in fajin and other martial skills. Finally, Daoist meditation techniques are an elegant and effective method for developing this awareness. They integrate with Taiji and other martial arts perfectly. This is why so many accomplished Taiji players emphasize the importance of meditation.

 

I am coming at this from a martial perspective here but it's equally applicable to non-martial avocations.

 

So what do you fajin then?

how is the jing formed?

 

This is what I understand of the process (perhaps not as much as the rest of you) -- Qi is to be cultivated and built on. The Lower Dantien is the reservoir for Qi.

 

Qi can be built via any of the taoist processes or Yoga or Pranyama. Generating Qi in the body is different from Storing Qi because all the Qi built up can be discharged unless the practitioner knows what he/she is doing.

 

Qi can felt physically, but an awareness needs to be developed. But this Qi is not simply an awareness. The sensitivity to feel Qi helps the practitioner in doing the "right" things to store and build up on this reservoir.

 

Qi can be felt internally but cannot be projected outward -- so Jing. A book that covers this topic very nicely is Master Waysun Liao's Tai Chi classics. So what is felt outward is Jing. Jing is generated by Condensing the Qi into the bone marrows. This tends to happen naturally after a period of regular Qi exercises (varies from person to person).

 

First signs of this happening are sensations of contraction and pressure (for eg: in your hands -- fingers, palms), as if the pressure outside is higher than inside your body (so a contracting feeling towards your bones).

 

One could also use a technique called Condensation Breathing to accelerate this condensation process and this is very useful for martial applications.

[doc benway]

So what do you fajin then?

My opponent

 

how is the jing formed?

Why is it necessary that jing form from stuff?

Do you understand jing better by relating it to the word Qi?

So many words...

[dwai]

My opponent

Why is it necessary that jing form from stuff?

Do you understand jing better by relating it to the word Qi?

So many words...

Let me repeat the question differently...

 

Fajin is the application...of what?

 

Not saying it's a necessity...that's the way it is (or so I've learnt). Qi cannot be felt by another but the practitioner...to test the efficacy of your training you need 2-person practice. There your partner can tell you whether your techniques and projection can be felt...with or without physical contact.

[goldisheavy]

LMAO Gold, sorry my engrish isnt as good as yours but my questions and answers are what they are simple!

 

I think what Adam said is interesting and i think will have a good discussion on this thread as he is bringing something different to it.

 

Ape

 

I think your English is pretty good. I think you are confused based on how you are asking the question. It seems you have many beliefs and assumptions embedded there. Not everyone is interested in challenging assumptions. Most people just want to work WITH their assumptions, and that's fine, but that's not a spiritual thing to do. Working WITH the assumptions is just materialism and if it has a spiritual flavor to it, then it's a spiritual materialism. Spiritual path is all about opening up the mind. It's not about storing or hoarding something, like energy or money (which is also energy) or fat (that's also energy). If it's not good to be fat, and if it's not good to accumulate wealth (beyond a certain healthy amount), why would it be good to store energy? It makes no sense, right?

 

Acquisitiveness is a bad trait to have in the spiritual domain.

 

Now, if you feel weaker and weaker every day, that means you expend more energy than you store, and maybe then you should work on storing energy. On the other hand, if you are a healthy human being, your energy is naturally in harmony -- you spend as much as you take in, so no need to get energy-fat.

 

All real power comes from intent. And what blocks intent is conflicting beliefs. Intent is what enacts beliefs into life, and if you have conflicting beliefs that means your intent is working against itself. That's spiritual friction, dissipation, scatter-mindedness or multi-mindedness, etc. A good trait to have is single-mindedness, but single-mindedness is impossible for someone with a lot of beliefs. The more beliefs you have the more they will conflict with each other. That's just how beliefs are, but don't take my word for it! Please examine your beliefs and see if they conflict with each other or not.

 

The role of contemplation is to resolve or pacify these beliefs. Once that's done, your intent will express itself in a manner that is powerful, glorious, always-successful, healthy, effortless, magic, etc.

[Spirit Ape]

Thanks Gold i know what i believe and know is truth and that is all i care about!

[HupGerk]

Meat on Bones,

 

Hahaha, well...now all your comments make alot of sense *cough*

 

At least you are doing work on your underlying synthesis, that is a good thing. Maybe do some work on your emotions next? Hahaha!

 

 

Spirit Ape,

 

You kill me, hahaha! If people only knew...

 

Damn beginner...LMAO!!!

 

HG

[doc benway]

Let me repeat the question differently...

 

Fajin is the application...of what?

 

 

Fajin = 發勁

Fa = issue or deliver

Jin = strength or force or energy

 

It's the generation and transfer of force over a short distance. The fajin strike is different from the external strike because of the shorter distance. If you throw a kick or punch from a distance of a foot or two, much of the force is dissipated by the impact on the surface of the object being struck. This is the nature of an external strike and this is where the idea arises of the damage being more on the surface. If you generate equal force right at the surface or a few inches away, more of the force "penetrates" the target because less is dissipated at the surface. This is why internal or fajin strikes are known for internal damage. THere are differences in how the strike needs to be generated also. With the closer strike, posture and timing are much more critical because the momentum is being generated starting from scratch very close to the target. With the longer distance, there's much more momentum and energy at the point of impact so posture, "rooting", and timing are a bit less critical. So there's nothing magical about the fajin strike - like any strike it still involves force = mass x acceleration.

 

Here's a simple example - if you stand next to a heavy chest of drawers and push it hard and fast with your hands starting from two feet away you'll hit the chest, maybe rock it, get a nice impact, maybe even crack the wood. If your posture isn't great you'll still make a noise and get a pretty good impact. If you use the same force with your hands resting on the chest or an inch or two away, you'll push it over or really rattle the drawers and contents of the drawers inside but your stance and timing will be much more critical. If you're not "rooted" or your posture is off, you won't be as effective. Fajin is not magic and it's effect does not require the postulation of some invisible stuff or energy-like something called Qi.

 

Given that Qi is an awareness of physical manifestation, Qi is still critical in the development of fajin (and anything else for that matter). The difference is simply that I don't see Qi as being something separate from us, some quantity of something to be stored or gained or lost. To me it's more the interaction of my consciousness or awareness with the physical world. I think that the fundamental error is our basic assumption that we are separate from everything else. I don't accept that. This is just my personal experience of it - nothing more.

[goldisheavy]

Thanks Gold i know what i believe and know is truth and that is all i care about!

 

Well, I guess you are the only one. Most people just believe they know what they believe, which is not the same thing as truly knowing your beliefs. I know, certainly, that I don't know all of my beliefs, because I still find them hidden in my actions. In other words, I do something and then I wonder, why do I do that? Then I realize, oh jeez, that's because I believe so and so, that's why...

 

And I've been at it for a long time now, and my practice is very focused and purposeful. And here you are, you already know your own mind! How wonderful! I don't understand why you'd ask a question though? If you know your beliefs, you should have ZERO questions.

Edited November 21, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Spirit Ape]

I asked the question because its a friggin forum dude, to see what others do, to see what others know that is why im here.

 

Im happy with my practices! I teach and i practice, im content with what i have but at the same time i keep an open mind to learn something new!

 

Adam,

 

I understand what you are trying to say my art is also based on Void and Emptiness on certain parts of fighting theory and cultivation be it physcial (internal) mentally and spiritually if you want to go there. But we also have the Dan Tian bringing it all back there on many other levels.

 

Thanks for putting in the effort and your thoughts, much appreciated!

 

Spirit Ape

 

Xuesheng,

 

Depending on what type of energy is released can effect your own body as well the persons recieving that force! A student I have that lived with me and comes visit me alot learnt what i consider Soft Power that truly gave him some injuries that scared the beejesus out of my wife when he showed me his bruising to his chest cavity. The strikes i did was soft energy but i gave no structure but found his center which gave this outcome even though this was to try and make him take a shot using Dragon Body theory (no structure) i guess my energy was softer and more pentrating at that time. If i used brute strength and more structured striking i think i would have made much less demage due to him recieving the impact and he connecting to my structure during the contact of the strike. ( LOL just woke up so if this sounds wrong sorry)!!!

 

Ape

[h.uriahr]

hi

 

yes i feel that the dantien method is a lower method. i also think that this view is shared by some in the daoist schools, lui ming for example. in practice energy will find ways to express itself, be used up or simply fade. in my view the work should be put into the mind rather than energy, that said i have done much energy work. as far as taiji goes i dont use the dantien, i try to make emptiness my centre. this makes it much harder to find and much harder to move. but i am not a traditionalist in taiji so sure i am wrong from many points of view. mind leads chi, chi leads body. cultivation of the causes gets the best results.

 

as for how i tap into these energies, well they are there at our desposal, just need the mind training to use them.

 

metta

adam

yes you can just sit there and say...... but i dont know much about philosophy.

metta

adam

it depends on what these terms mean in your model. i for one am all for sitting and forgetting.

 

metta

adam

 

I should have reread my quote first and then edited it. I meant to say that the dantien can be filled like a bowl.

[goldisheavy]

Im happy with my practices! I teach and i practice, im content with what i have

 

I mean no offense, but it sounds like idle curiosity then.

 

A student I have that lived with me and comes visit me alot learnt what i consider Soft Power that truly gave him some injuries that scared the beejesus out of my wife when he showed me his bruising to his chest cavity. The strikes i did was soft energy but i gave no structure but found his center which gave this outcome even though this was to try and make him take a shot using Dragon Body theory (no structure) i guess my energy was softer and more pentrating at that time. If i used brute strength and more structured striking i think i would have made much less demage due to him recieving the impact and he connecting to my structure during the contact of the strike. ( LOL just woke up so if this sounds wrong sorry)!!!

 

Part of the problem with this is that intent is whole. In other words, in reality it's not your intent competing against your student's intent. At the highest level, you and your student, as one whole, have already decided to make that nasty bruise, and there is no way to resist that. To put it from your student's perspective, the second he consents to a demonstration, he's very vulnerable, because he opens his intent to receiving any amount of damage to his person.

 

So your success against a cooperating student is not very impressive. A mad lunatic who doesn't understand what you know and just wants to tear you apart will most likely kill you with 2 body shots, because his intent is unhinged and you don't understand how to understand the mind of a lunatic -- these guys are not normal.

 

The point of this is not to scare you or anything like that at all. The point is to show that what you are doing with your student is somewhat deceptive. It's educational if you look at it the right way, and mostly I don't think there is a problem, since both of you enjoy playing like that. However, don't fool yourself into thinking you are actually competing or acting against some resistance. In reality the intent is one whole and it has no opponent at all. It just manifests whatever it wants. This is why fighting, unless it is used to gain wisdom, is a complete waste of time.

Edited November 22, 2008 by goldisheavy

[dwai]

Fajin = 發勁

Fa = issue or deliver

Jin = strength or force or energy

 

It's the generation and transfer of force over a short distance. The fajin strike is different from the external strike because of the shorter distance. If you throw a kick or punch from a distance of a foot or two, much of the force is dissipated by the impact on the surface of the object being struck. This is the nature of an external strike and this is where the idea arises of the damage being more on the surface. If you generate equal force right at the surface or a few inches away, more of the force "penetrates" the target because less is dissipated at the surface. This is why internal or fajin strikes are known for internal damage. THere are differences in how the strike needs to be generated also. With the closer strike, posture and timing are much more critical because the momentum is being generated starting from scratch very close to the target. With the longer distance, there's much more momentum and energy at the point of impact so posture, "rooting", and timing are a bit less critical. So there's nothing magical about the fajin strike - like any strike it still involves force = mass x acceleration.

 

Here's a simple example - if you stand next to a heavy chest of drawers and push it hard and fast with your hands starting from two feet away you'll hit the chest, maybe rock it, get a nice impact, maybe even crack the wood. If your posture isn't great you'll still make a noise and get a pretty good impact. If you use the same force with your hands resting on the chest or an inch or two away, you'll push it over or really rattle the drawers and contents of the drawers inside but your stance and timing will be much more critical. If you're not "rooted" or your posture is off, you won't be as effective. Fajin is not magic and it's effect does not require the postulation of some invisible stuff or energy-like something called Qi.

 

Given that Qi is an awareness of physical manifestation, Qi is still critical in the development of fajin (and anything else for that matter). The difference is simply that I don't see Qi as being something separate from us, some quantity of something to be stored or gained or lost. To me it's more the interaction of my consciousness or awareness with the physical world. I think that the fundamental error is our basic assumption that we are separate from everything else. I don't accept that. This is just my personal experience of it - nothing more.

 

Qi and Jing are not in the realm of Classical Newtonian Mechanics. Their effects are Newtonian and visible but they by themselves aren't Newtonian. I don't know what they are though.

 

What I'm saying is from what I have experienced. Application of Jing can happen only when Qi is converted to Jing. There is not an infinite supply of Jing or Qi inside the body. It has to be developed and built upon.

 

Jing != Force

 

FaJing == Force

 

Jing == externally manifested Qi

 

One explanation I've heard is that Jing is a waveform. It sure feels that way on application as well...