What exactly is Enlightment

[The Genuine Article]

what exactly is enligment and how would you define it?

[mwight]

what exactly is enligment and how would you define it?

 

Enlightenment is the realization that there are no "things", there is no "you", there is no "them". In essence realizing everything you have have been taught or told in your life is a lie at the highest level.

 

You see through out your life your family, friends, teachers and society have programed you to identify objects name them and perceive them as separate entities from yourself and the universe. That isn't true. There are no "things" ,

 

There are only patterns and arrangements. A biologist could change one species into another by altering its DNA. A chemist can chemically change one substance into another by altering the way atoms are connected to each other. A physicist can change one element into another by adding or subtracting subatomic particles. All of these changes of one thing into another thing are done by altering the way its components are arranged.

 

We are literally arrangements of matter and energy, and there is no division between us and the rest of the planet, or the rest of the galaxy, or the rest of the universe. All is one, and yet paradoxically when any part of this whole is examined you can find it is made of components, molecules, atoms, subatomic particles, and so forth. It never ends. You could zoom in for infinity, and you could zoom out into infinity.

"My uncreated and unending profound Enlightenment accords with the Tathagatagarbha, which is absolute bodhi, and ensures my perfect insight into the Dharma realm [realm of Ultimate Truth], where the one is infinite and the infinite is one."

-Buddha

 

We live in this fantasy world, where we gives ourselves names to establish an identity and a sense of self. There is no self... You and I are the same being, the exact same. All life on earth is one being, all life in the universe is one being.

 

If the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is true then all possible worlds exist, an infinite number of worlds to account for all possibilities.

 

If this is so everything you could accomplish in your life, has already happened, every thought you could think, everything you could do, already done. Every book that could be, already written. Every thought that could be imagined, already conceived.

 

Indeed if this is so we are living in an illusion.

 

From what I understand, enlightenment is learning to understand this, and eventually wake up and leave.

Edited November 9, 2008 by mwight

[Stigweard]

[mwight]

Every thought you have, every word you verbalize in your mind, every picture you imagine, every concept you can grasp, it has no existence external to your own mind. Thats a pretty remarkable statement but its very true.

 

 

this says: This is not a pipe (it isn't a pipe its a painting which represents one)

 

It's kind of like that.

Edited November 9, 2008 by mwight

[JewelsNorth]

Enlightenment is living in the present and not only truth, but living truth. Enlightened people have a basic sense of direction and know the whole, "God", the self in everything they encounter and experience. You're not striving for anything because "you are".

[wuliheron]

Enlightenment is a sustained state of pure awareness brought about by the unconditional surrender to or acceptance of existence. "Surrender" or "acceptance" is as much an emotional act as it is an intellectual one and among Taoists is considered to be a spontaneous act one can cultivate through meditation.

 

You could compare this to learning how to play the piano or another instrument. At first you need to learn different ways to move your hands and practice them endlessly. However, the ultimate goal is to get to the point where you no longer need to think about what your hands are doing. Instead, you just play and get lost in the act itself. The most accomplished pianists can do this while improvising for hours on end.

 

The enlightened, so it is said, have such a spontaneous state of mind that they can do this for anything and everything. They live in the perpetual present without dwelling on the past or future, hopes or fears.

[h.uriahr]

Enlightenment is more than realization. I believe it's a physical aswell as mental.

[.broken.]

Beyond words.

 

Inconceivable.

[mantis]

wasn't aware of the large amount of enlightened beings on the tao bums

 

i bow to you!

[MASTERforge]

Knowing our lives are plays, we are the actors. There is a beginning, middle and end.

 

We are only just 'playing', temporary, until the curtain comes down.

 

Don't take it too seriously. Is it a comedy, tragedy, are you the lead or a bit part?

 

Knowing your true nature is that which cannot be named.

[fiveelementtao]

what exactly is enligment and how would you define it?

My opinion based only on my limited experience....

The best we can get is just HUMAN....an enlightened person is simply a kind and loving person PERIOD!.... Anyone who can be kind and forgiving and helpful to others while being honest, humble and real with themselves is as enlightened as it gets... I have trained with numerous "enlightened" masters... ALL of them had ego and limitation. Some were wise and nice people, but I only learned from the ones who knew they were human and shared their struggles with me. in a couple of cases, these "masters" were extremely destructive, egotistical and emotionally immature. This includes even those who have died and ressurrected. This includes even those with astounding supernatural powers. I have not yet met ONE completely enlightened person according to the new agey ideal of being perfect, without emotional flaw and "One" with God. I have met some who were ahead of me in their development, but none of them were bodhisattvas or avatars... NONE!

 

I don't care how energetically advanced they are. To me that is no different than a professional bodybuilder on an energetic level. No matter how powerful or refined our energy is, we still have to confront ego and limitation.

I love the saying, "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him." Worshipping teachers IMHO will only stifle spiritual growth and promote emotional denial...

I have tremendous difficulty with the hyper generalized definitions like "Conscious" "Aware", "in the moment", "surrendered". These kinds of generalized, intellectualized definitions sound very poetic but, HOW do you do it? I think these kind of hyper idealized new agey ideals only promote emotional denial. People want sooo badly to be free of emotional pain and that's why "Gurus" attract so many people. Don't even get me started on the so called Gurus, like Osho, Tolle etc. who claim to be in constant nirvana.... What a load of CRAP! The closest thing to enlightenment I have found is in books like, The Wandering Taoist, Enter the dragon's Gate, Aghora ... These people only claim to have found energetic systems to reach their highest potential. They still admit to be being human. IMHO, there is NO energetic system that will make a person without flaw or emotional struggles. If someone stays real with themselves, these systems can help tremendously but spiritual disciplines are only tools, they are not the goal.

(sigh)... my .02

[The Genuine Article]

thanks for you guys response, how could this be applied to life as we know it?

[ddilulo_06]

I don't know if this guy is enlightened for sure or not. I never met him. He calls himself enlightened though, and from what I've seen, I tend to believe him.

 

Here are the steps to enlightenment, according to him:

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. First realize that there is no inherent value in enlightenment, it is in fact, totally useless. What is detailed below is NOT FUN, and it's NOT SATISFYING to YOU. So unless you really feel a deep, honest yearning for something that seems to be missing in your life, this is the perfect step for you to jump off at and continue enjoying your life smile.gif

 

If you're still around, go to step 2.

 

2. Learn to calm your mind, doesn't matter how, just learn. By calming your mind I mean just that. You should be able to take a deep breath whenever you want and notice how your mind goes BLANK, and stays that way as long as you relax. Focus on this until you don't want to anymore, then try step 3.

 

3. Forget calming your mind, your mind is irrelevant. Sit down and focus on your breath, explore your breath as intimately as humanly possible. Focus on it so much that you're not even there anymore, there's just breath... moving...

If you find this difficult you've been lazy and need to go back to step 2.

 

4. Ok, so you can sit down and become your breath, awesomeness, you're enlightened!

 

Buuuut you don't know that yet, so here's what you do; Start noticing the moments in between your breaths. If you have done what you should in step 3 you should start noticing an IMMENSE, UNCOMFORTABLE, ITCHY, MASSIVE, COMPLETE, UTTER, TOTAL, SCARY, WONDERFUL, EMPTY, GIANT sense of something.

 

At first, it'll just be small hints and you're natural reaction will be to get the fuck away. So what you do now is that you keep on becoming your breath and noticing the moments in between until you've come to terms with this sense of something. Come to terms as in you no longer shit your pants and find the first best distraction to avoid it.

 

5. As you may or may not have noticed by now, this sense of something is actually there ALL THE TIME. You're usually just too busy thinking you are YOU to notice it. So what you do now is that you sit your ass down again and just rest with that feeling. Explore it fully. Make it your new best friend.

 

This step can be very, taxing. For me it took a certain amount of yoga, solitary time and some crazy breath work to literally shock my body into letting this feeling consciously rest in me with any kind of consistency. It takes a lot of opening up, relaxation and letting go. I figure this is where a lot of people remain for a long time. Most are just too comfortable the way they are to put in the effort to really let go.

 

A big part for me was to go through all the beliefs I could find about myself and look at them honestly and letting this sense of something shine on them. Most of them melted away like ice in the sun smile.gif

 

Don't move to step 6 until you truly and honestly feel comfortable with this sense of something. Or do, but I don't think it'll do you much good tongue.gif

 

6. Now you need to figure out the difference between relating to reality, and relating to reality through concepts. There's a big experiential difference between direct experience and experience experienced through concepts.

 

What we usually and automatically do is relate to everything through concepts, it's the way our mind works and there's nothing wrong with it. But to truly learn to know who you are this needs to be suspended for a while.

 

Look at whatever concepts you have summoned about this sense of something and recognize them, and then shine the shiny light of this sense of something on that concept. Start relating to this sense of something DIRECTLY, and not through any fancy spiritual concepts.

 

Also, look at whatever concepts you have left about yourself, who you are, as a body, person, entity, whatever, doesn't matter how spiritual or holy your concept it, shine the shiny shine light on it until it melts like all the others!

 

This step takes a immense levels of trust and surrender. When people talk of dying before waking up, this is what they are talking about. As long as any belief is held on to that refers to what you really are, that's who you will take yourself to be, and you'll be wrong, because no concept can contain what we all are.

 

It is like taking a biiiiiig leap of faith into a dark abyss where there is no safety, no second chances, it is just it. Either you take the step, or you don't. Either you let go of those final lingering beliefs or not.

 

7. Congratulations, even if you might not realize it yet, this is what most people keep yapping about when they talk about enlightenment. Yes, yes I know, it's rather ordinary and simple but hey, at least you're free now! Free of all those pesky beliefs. Free to be whatever you want whenever you want to. Free to be nothing at all, or everything. Free to go poof and decide you're done, free to stick around and enjoy the light show.

 

8. Ha! You thought you were finished huh? Step 8, realize that after all that effort, all those hours spent ridding your mind of belief, questioning it until your mind felt like porridge and making sure you didn't fall back in those pesky traps of mind. After all that, you're now completely free to START ENJOYING THEM AGAIN. There's irony for you.

 

Half the freedom is in knowing what you really are, the rest is in that with this knowing you can now enjoy ANY belief you want. You can become the goofy spiritual person or the hardcore business guy all while knowing it's all part of the same wonderful light show orchestrated by that sense of something you've grown to know so intimately. Enjoy!

 

 

Disclaimer: None of this is true, right or correct in any way. It's simply my subjective recollections of what I've learned from my own direct experience. It is written in retrospect to myself as a guide and a joyful reminder of what I've been through, and maybe a hope that someone else might be able to relate to it and find it useful in some way, if not, it's all the same smile.gif

 

Disclaimer2: The irony of this whole post is of course that WE ARE ALL ALREADY ENLIGHTENED IN THE ONLY WAY ONE CAN BE. Enlightenment is big joke, and the joke is on us. We keep thinking that there's somewhere go, something to get, something we quite don't have yet which is like sitting right on top of a gold mine begging passers-by for change.

 

Wake up and smell the gold. You're sitting on it.

 

With love, irony and a touch of sadistic pleasure,

tagg / Jonatan

[mantis]

being in a constant state of awarness isn't enlightenment

 

i know because with effort i can turn it "on" if you will

[wuliheron]

Enlightenment is more than realization. I believe it's a physical aswell as mental.

 

Yes, our emotions and thoughts involve a great deal more than just our brains. Still, a man with no legs is not half a man.

[mwight]

Yes, our emotions and thoughts involve a great deal more than just our brains. Still, a man with no legs is not half a man.

 

Enlightenment, Transcendence/Ascendance, and Liberation are all different things. I think most people are refer to all three when they think of an enlightened being.

[Starjumper]

My opinion based only on my limited experience....

The best we can get is just HUMAN....an enlightened person is simply a kind and loving person PERIOD!.... Anyone who can be kind and forgiving and helpful to others while being honest, humble and real with themselves is as enlightened as it gets... I have trained with numerous "enlightened" masters... ALL of them had ego and limitation. Some were wise and nice people, but I only learned from the ones who knew they were human and shared their struggles with me. in a couple of cases, these "masters" were extremely destructive, egotistical and emotionally immature. This includes even those who have died and ressurrected. This includes even those with astounding supernatural powers. I have not yet met ONE completely enlightened person according to the new agey ideal of being perfect, without emotional flaw and "One" with God. I have met some who were ahead of me in their development, but none of them were bodhisattvas or avatars... NONE!

 

I don't care how energetically advanced they are. To me that is no different than a professional bodybuilder on an energetic level. No matter how powerful or refined our energy is, we still have to confront ego and limitation.

I love the saying, "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him." Worshipping teachers IMHO will only stifle spiritual growth and promote emotional denial...

I have tremendous difficulty with the hyper generalized definitions like "Conscious" "Aware", "in the moment", "surrendered". These kinds of generalized, intellectualized definitions sound very poetic but, HOW do you do it? I think these kind of hyper idealized new agey ideals only promote emotional denial. People want sooo badly to be free of emotional pain and that's why "Gurus" attract so many people. Don't even get me started on the so called Gurus, like Osho, Tolle etc. who claim to be in constant nirvana.... What a load of CRAP! The closest thing to enlightenment I have found is in books like, The Wandering Taoist, Enter the dragon's Gate, Aghora ... These people only claim to have found energetic systems to reach their highest potential. They still admit to be being human. IMHO, there is NO energetic system that will make a person without flaw or emotional struggles. If someone stays real with themselves, these systems can help tremendously but spiritual disciplines are only tools, they are not the goal.

(sigh)... my .02

 

My teacher put it to a couple of us student's like this: "What good is enlightenment? It doesn't make you any happier, any more friends, or any more money"

 

I didn't answer.

 

I think the big problem is that people confuse enlightenment experience with 'being' enlightened. The exalted states described of enlightenment do exist during an enlightenment experience but they are temporary. You could say that an enlightenment experience is like being totally yin. All things must be balanced and so it is absolutely impossible to maintain a state of complete yin indefinitely. It starts suddenly so one is aware of a major shift in awareness. It lasts for many hours to a day or longer and then fades away. All you are left with is a memory and a bunch of other things happen after you come out of it, when you try to make sense of what it was that happened. So I say that the experience ignites a major alchemical change in a person which may or may not lead to further progress, it depends on how grounded they are. While you are in that state the idea of making sense of anything is completely gone. There is also no concept of the difference between objective and subjective, words which I still do not understand.

 

Also many people speak of enlightenment as some kind of realization but that, I feel, is an absolutely misleading statement because there is absolutely no realization in terms of realizing some kind of knowledge or ideas, it is a feeling. In other words, you don't realize you are one with all or that your 'self' has disappeared, you FEEL it. Also, the 'self' doesn't feel like it disappeared, it is your awareness of your mental process of identifying yourself that goes away. There is still full awareness of your body and your emotions on a feeling level. It's only the thinking mind that shuts it's yap for awhile. Therefore some say that when they stop thinking that it is enlightenment but that is wrong. The experience includes a feeling of emotional bliss which radiates to and affects others. So to be technical, I describe enlightenment as emotional bliss. There are two other kinds of bliss, physical bliss and mental bliss.

 

So that is an enlightenment experience. It happens with a big boom, wonder of wonders, and then there is the big letdown at the end, just like with any drug. Then later it's only a memory of a memory, with dinosaur poo on it.

 

There are some new agers (and Buddhists) who make big claims about there being a state of being continually enlightened, don't believe it. An enlightenment experience just prepares you to practice Te. Honesty. Self honesty.

 

Is self honesty 'being' enlightened? Could be. The point I'm trying to make here is that you should not confuse the idea of being enlightened (as some kind of graduated state) with the 'experience' of enlightenment.

 

It's all about definitions.

[Starjumper]

So let me assure you that I'm not enlightened.

[林愛偉]

Go and meditate and get enlightened.

No sense in speculating. It wont get you enlightened.

[mYTHmAKER]

Enlightenment is the realization that there are no "things", there is no "you", there is no "them". In essence realizing everything you have have been taught or told in your life is a lie at the highest level.

 

From what I understand, enlightenment is learning to understand this, and eventually wake up and leave.

 

Interesting definition. however i disagree that everything we were taught is a lie.

A lie is a false statement with the deliberate intent to deceive.

I don't believe this to be the case.

 

Enlightenment is not learning anything it is experiential and that's why one must BE enlightened to understand it.

There is no other way.

 

What do you mean by wake up and leave.

There is no where to go

I find this curious as from your posts you always want to not be here- to leave this world.

i hope i don't offend you but i would do some investigation into this if i were you - and as you know i am you as we are all one

 

I haven't heard of any great being that once having reached this state has packed his/her bags and left.

Btw the only place enlightenment can exist is in the present - not past - not future.

But what do i know

Edited November 10, 2008 by mYTHmAKER

[h.uriahr]

Yes, our emotions and thoughts involve a great deal more than just our brains. Still, a man with no legs is not half a man.

 

I didnt mean physical in that sense but then again I kind of did.

[wuliheron]

being in a constant state of awarness isn't enlightenment

 

i know because with effort i can turn it "on" if you will

 

Without acceptance awareness is impossible, and if you completely accepted everything life brings you why would you want to "turn it off"?

 

As for how to apply your awareness in your life, that is unique for each of us. As Taoists like to say, "Many paths, one mountain."

[Cameron]

Find an enlightened person and ask them

Edited November 10, 2008 by Cameron

[Gerard]

Edited November 10, 2008 by durkhrod chogori

[doc benway]

Go and meditate and get enlightened.

No sense in speculating. It wont get you enlightened.

When the Buddha was asked about the afterlife, he replied with "a thunderous silence."

There are "things" (like God, the afterlife, and enlightenment) that are beyond words and ideas, thoughts and concepts.

Throwing words at such "things" is mostly a waste of time, it's all inaccurate and gratuitous.

We can each describe our experiences in this area but it's like telling you what the color red looks like without comparing it to something you already have seen.

Like Lin said - it's better to practice than speculate.