5 element cycles

[fiveelementtao]

Hi y'all,

As far as I know, there are three different element cycles for different purposes. I mostly only hear about 2 of them., the creative and controlling cycles, but there is a third which I've rarely seen talked about known as the "demeaning", "subduing" or "vanquishing" cycle (Wood-Metal-Fire-Water-Earth). I am interested in any understandings people may have of this little talked about element cycle and its purpose/uses.

Thanks

[Taomeow]

Hi y'all,

As far as I know, there are three different element cycles for different purposes. I mostly only hear about 2 of them., the creative and controlling cycles, but there is a third which I've rarely seen talked about known as the "demeaning", "subduing" or "vanquishing" cycle (Wood-Metal-Fire-Water-Earth). I am interested in any understandings people may have of this little talked about element cycle and its purpose/uses.

Thanks

 

The one you cite is the fourth. They are best understood in terms of family relationships.

 

In the creative/nourishing cycle, each of the five phases generates each successive one, and whatever phase generates the next one is its parent phase. So Water generates/is the parent (usually translated as "mother") of Wood, Wood is the parent of Fire, and so on. Each "child" phase gets its nourishment, support, growth from the parent phase.

 

In the diminishing/using-up/depleting cycle, which runs in the opposite direction, the child phase "takes" from the mother phase, thereby using it, diminishing it. Thus Metal is the child of Earth that takes from her rather than gives to her, Earth is the child of Fire that takes from her rather than gives to her, and so on.

 

Then there's the control cycle, which is understood as the grandparent-grandchild relationship. The grandparent phase controls the grandchild phase without directly "taking from" or "giving to." Another way to think of it is as a teacher-student relationship where the somewhat stern teacher keeps the student in line but in a balanced cycle, for his/her own benefit. In an unbalanced cycle, control can become tyrannical.

 

And finally, the "demeaning" cycle ("arresting" is probably a better term, or even "hijacking") -- that's the opposite of the control cycle, the reaction of the grandchild to being controlled by the grandparent, or of a student to being disciplined by a teacher. Like all others, it is about the direction in which the energy of the relationship is flowing -- in this case, it is being "pulled" from the grandparent to the grandchild, not so much depleting as "arresting," "pointing toward oneself" the grandparent's energy. It can be "demeaning" if the grandchild is "too big" for the "grandparent," i.e. in an unbalanced cycle. In a balanced one, the grandchild will pull as much control toward herself as is needed and is easy/natural for the grandparent to give, no more and no less.

[Stigweard]

The one you cite is the fourth. They are best understood in terms of family relationships.

 

In the creative/nourishing cycle, each of the five phases generates each successive one, and whatever phase generates the next one is its parent phase. So Water generates/is the parent (usually translated as "mother") of Wood, Wood is the parent of Fire, and so on. Each "child" phase gets its nourishment, support, growth from the parent phase.

 

In the diminishing/using-up/depleting cycle, which runs in the opposite direction, the child phase "takes" from the mother phase, thereby using it, diminishing it. Thus Metal is the child of Earth that takes from her rather than gives to her, Earth is the child of Fire that takes from her rather than gives to her, and so on.

 

Then there's the control cycle, which is understood as the grandparent-grandchild relationship. The grandparent phase controls the grandchild phase without directly "taking from" or "giving to." Another way to think of it is as a teacher-student relationship where the somewhat stern teacher keeps the student in line but in a balanced cycle, for his/her own benefit. In an unbalanced cycle, control can become tyrannical.

 

And finally, the "demeaning" cycle ("arresting" is probably a better term, or even "hijacking") -- that's the opposite of the control cycle, the reaction of the grandchild to being controlled by the grandparent, or of a student to being disciplined by a teacher. Like all others, it is about the direction in which the energy of the relationship is flowing -- in this case, it is being "pulled" from the grandparent to the grandchild, not so much depleting as "arresting," "pointing toward oneself" the grandparent's energy. It can be "demeaning" if the grandchild is "too big" for the "grandparent," i.e. in an unbalanced cycle. In a balanced one, the grandchild will pull as much control toward herself as is needed and is easy/natural for the grandparent to give, no more and no less.

 

 

Cheers for that description Taomeow. Could you explain it again in relation with the following diagram please?

 

[Taomeow]

Cheers for that description Taomeow. Could you explain it again in relation with the following diagram please?

 

Sure.

 

The diagram is missing the Depleting/diminishing cycle. This one would go counterclockwise along the same path the thick clockwise arrows of the Generating cycle go.

 

The "star" in the center is formed by the lines representing the relationships of the Control cycle.

 

The arrows on the periphery refer to the "hijacking" (demeaning") cycle.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Taomeow

[宁]

I heard about 9 types of cycles, but I don't know how it is mathematically possible

The other 5 types seem to be advanced formulas

[Stigweard]

Cheers for the above Taomeow

[Taomeow]

I heard about 9 types of cycles, but I don't know how it is mathematically possible

The other 5 types seem to be advanced formulas

Well, one can analyze the interactions further by several methods, and the number of cycles that become visible will grow exponentially. E.g., take any one phase and view its totality of relationships. Say, Water. Water is Mother to Wood (1), Child to Metal (2), Grandmother to Fire (3) and Grandchild to Earth (4), but it is also Great-grandchild to Fire (4), and Great-grandmother to Earth (5). So we have (2) and (4), (3) and (5) that coincide in space and interfere in time! -- and in 3D space at that, not on a 2D plane! --

 

so to understand the phase that is both generating and is generated by another, we would need to watch the waveform pattern of interferences in 4D (3D space plus time), not a flat diagram. In other words, like all things taoist, it will ultimately boil down to a real-life phenomenon, not an abstract symbol. (The diagram is symbolic of course, nothing this linear is even remotely happening in real life.) Then... times 5 (for 5 phases) it becomes quite complex. Then times 2 (for yin-yang dynamics) and then times 8 (for waveform interlocking/interference from the 8 directions of the bagua) and then you get your resonance, ganying, that affects the totality of Change. Once you're there, if you still want to do it mathematically, you have already dropped all attempts to analyze it in any algebraic or geometric fashion and moved on into the chaos/fractals/power laws territory. In other words, you have began to study classical feng shui, classical Chinese astrology, and TCM in order to grasp the whole picture.

[joeblast]

good posts TM, thanks

[Stigweard]

I think I had a brain orgasm reading this

 

Thanks.

 

I want to come back to you on this. What did you study, TCM, Feng Shui etc?

 

Well, one can analyze the interactions further by several methods, and the number of cycles that become visible will grow exponentially. E.g., take any one phase and view its totality of relationships. Say, Water. Water is Mother to Wood (1), Child to Metal (2), Grandmother to Fire (3) and Grandchild to Earth (4), but it is also Great-grandchild to Fire (4), and Great-grandmother to Earth (5). So we have (2) and (4), (3) and (5) that coincide in space and interfere in time! -- and in 3D space at that, not on a 2D plane! --

 

so to understand the phase that is both generating and is generated by another, we would need to watch the waveform pattern of interferences in 4D (3D space plus time), not a flat diagram. In other words, like all things taoist, it will ultimately boil down to a real-life phenomenon, not an abstract symbol. (The diagram is symbolic of course, nothing this linear is even remotely happening in real life.) Then... times 5 (for 5 phases) it becomes quite complex. Then times 2 (for yin-yang dynamics) and then times 8 (for waveform interlocking/interference from the 8 directions of the bagua) and then you get your resonance, ganying, that affects the totality of Change. Once you're there, if you still want to do it mathematically, you have already dropped all attempts to analyze it in any algebraic or geometric fashion and moved on into the chaos/fractals/power laws territory. In other words, you have began to study classical feng shui, classical Chinese astrology, and TCM in order to grasp the whole picture.

[宁]

In other words, you have began to study classical feng shui, classical Chinese astrology, and TCM in order to grasp the whole picture.

 

First things first, 现在 我 学习 汉语

[Taomeow]

I think I had a brain orgasm reading this

 

Crown chakra?

 

I want to come back to you on this. What did you study, TCM, Feng Shui etc?

 

Xuan Kong (space-time) FS, TCM, a bunch of stuff... I Ching, of course... Each hexagram, among other things, is linked to a specific "moment" of the Five Phases, noticing that helps understand the divination, the dynamics of a hexagram's energy becomes much clearer. All these things, the fundamentals of taoism, are a long haul study, I don't think I know much, but I try to grasp as much as I can everywhere, it's fascinating to me... Taiji Classics have short but sweet elucidations on these energies in poetic "songs" that are also helpful (especially when combined with doing taiji )... It's all over the place in Laozi too, mostly indirectly, more directly in FS or TCM or astrology... it's meat and bones of taoism, not the robes and hats it might wear... it wears many, but the flesh and bones is this... a study of the energies of the world and their application to human purposes and concerns. My humble, of course...

[Stigweard]

Thought these would be useful in here:

 

 

Edited March 13, 2009 by Stigweard

[exorcist_1699]

In terms of Taoist practice, there are 2 crucial points we have to pay attention to :

 

1) The 5-element framework works at qi -level , not material/substance level; more precisely speaking, it works at the post-heavenly qi level . One of the two most important skills of TCM doctor is to manipulate these different kinds of qi of different organs , maintain the balance and positive/creative/nourishing relationships between them so as to cure diseases . Another important skills is to manipulate the ying ( essence/liquid/substance) and yang ( qi/function/ energy) of each organ so as to attain its own balance , curing illness generated by imbalance of them.

 

Of course, these two aspects are related and interacted.

 

2) The water and fire elements are especially important for our cultivation because it is the yang that hides in water and ying that hides in fire , their intercourse provides the possibility and conditions for us to jump from the post-heavenly level to pre-heavenly level . Never , no matter how hard you try , can you attain immortality at the 5-element level .

Edited March 13, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[Stigweard]

2) The water and fire elements are especially important for our cultivation because it is the yang that hides in water and ying that hides in fire , their intercourse provides the possibility and conditions for us to jump from the post-heavenly level to pre-heavenly level . Never , no matter how hard you try , can you attain immortality at the 5-element level .

 

Can you elaborate on this some more please? Why do you think this is the case?

 

[exorcist_1699]

Kidney is said to the organ of water, in between them is a place called Ming-meng or dantian where Yang qi is hidden. Heart is said to be the organ of fire where our mind located and pre-heavenly jing is hidden.

[WhiteTiger]

Kidney is said to the organ of water, in between them is a place called Ming-meng or dantian where Yang qi is hidden.

I believe (although I'm not a teacher) the Ming-Men is located on the back while the Dan Tien is located closer front of the body... similar plane if the plane was parallel to the ground if the person was standing upright as opposed to laying down.

 

 

Heart is said to be the organ of fire where our mind located and pre-heavenly jing is hidden.

Interesting...

 

Doesn't Te or Virtue reside in the area of the heart?

 

If this is correct then Fire = mind

 

Anyone know of resources talking about Virtue (Te) and how it applies itself or shown through the heart?

 

Note: Virtue is meant to represent Te although the word virtue may not live up to the full potential of implications implied when we speak of the word Te

Edited March 17, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[exorcist_1699]

Without water's nourishment , how can a trivial mind become a much bigger MIND?

 

Without a great MIND's attention ( Genuine fire) , how can ordinary qi changed to pre-heaven qi ?

 

Although at 5-element level, the nourishing (生) and vanquishing (殺)forces seem work in a balanced way , it is the vanquishing force that gains the upper hand in the end for death is the inevitable, final outcome of all living organism in this world except few humans who know how to turn the vanquishing into nourishing , reverse the

post-heaven to pre-heaven , change death into living .

Edited March 17, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[SpiralTrance]

Hey can anyone give me links of some texts (preferably printable) that can explain the elements and the interactions for a beginner? Thanks.

 

I half understand what you guys are talking about as I've studied western occultism a bit in the past. However I find daoism appraoch to the elements a bit more down to earth though I'd still like some good grounding in the element theory.

Edited March 19, 2009 by SpiralTrance

[exorcist_1699]

Most English books talking about the basics of TCM tell you the 5-element theory. Taoism accepts most of the basic theory of the TCM for TCM originates from Taoism . The only difference is that TCM works at post- heavenly Qi level and emphasizes the medical healing aspects while Taoism emphasizes individual emancipation ( immortality is only its byproduct) of humans .

 

The famous saying : " While Water has intercourse with Fire, never can you get old" (水火交, 永不老), of course, refers to Genuine Fire and Water, that is, things at pre-heavenly level.

Edited March 21, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[TheWhiteRabbit]

One more... very important and shows how five elements are used to heal:

 

Just another little snippet to make you wonder "Who IS this guy?":

 

Take a look at the Fire element at the top... the heart has four chambers, each formula corresponds to each chamber in the above diagram... besides there also being for channels that are fire.

 

Then of course each each element has its yin and yang organ...

Edited March 21, 2009 by TheWhiteRabbit

[exorcist_1699]

Five -element theory is not just used for TCM when healing patients , but can be applied to understanding the forces governing the changes of daily affairs and upheavals of times. One of the most important Taoist classics, HuangDi Yin Fu Jin (黃帝陰符經) , its importance just next to Laotze and Chuangtze , talks about the secret , i.e. the secret of those nourishing / annihilating forces working secretly underlying human activities .

 

One crucial point it raises is that it is the Mind-who-does-not-mind (不神之神) that can lead us out of the existent dilemma.

Edited March 24, 2009 by exorcist_1699