Most Events that Happen to us do not Matter! An amazing talk by TED

[picnic]

Or maybe you are speaking about people who do have enough, but not much (or any) superfluous.

 

yes, i would say I am Yet the poor by the comparison. Give a "westerner" the same cash and they would be deeply miserable, the "poor" on the same cash (not much, no superfluous) are happy, that would include my wife and her family who i just asked directly.

 

Of course "poor poor" is a struggle, the ones who are happy out of them would be a sever minority. They are unfortunately a big bulk of the worlds populous, forced into that way by the greed of the super wealthy and there is no clearer example of Tao than that!

 

sorry if i don't seem to answer questions very well, I don't look at life as a statistician but as a student of the way.

 

EDIT: deleted double paste

Edited November 16, 2008 by picnic

[Pietro]

sorry if i don't seem to answer questions very well, I don't look at life as a statistician but as a student of the way.

No, you did well. You remained with the issue, and did not back away, until we could find the common ground. That's what is relevant, IMO.

 

Take care, and welcome to Tao Bums.

Pietro

[picnic]

(it could be that...) ...Happiness is; to not want to change a thing.

[Birch]

This is a cool discussion. I'll throw in (sorry no stats available but I suppose I could go off and find the studies, probably in Daniel G's book):

 

- your happiness with respect to your wealth (assuming basic needs are met) could be very dependent on who you compare yourself with. This is why people try to 'keep up with the Jones'' - despite not knowing Mr and Mrs Jones' real subjective level of happiness.

 

I guess the solution to that one is to stop comparing.

 

 

- your happiness with respect to what is probable in terms of gain in wealth. Note I didn't say 'possible'.

 

I suppose it's another kind of comparison. We have mostly all heard of the 'American Dream'. People who are unable to attain that (possibility, not probability) may being kicking themselves down because they think they ought to be able to achieve it and when they can't, they reject themselves, get depressed etc.

 

It's apparently more likely that kids will not gain or lose very many income points over the course of their lives in comparison with their parents and that any 'parental' effect takes 3 generations to stop having an effect.

 

So while rags to riches (and the opposite) stories have been built up into myth (probably a reason for that;-)) in practice, you're most likely to be about as well off as your parents.

 

 

The final idea is not really money-related but it's more about accepting that we cannot definitively drive away all negativity, and that this is probably not desirable as there has to be some if you want to experience positive things, in fact, if there isn't, then you can't because you need a negative thing to compare it to. What a circle!

 

So I guess if you don't have any negative things for yourself, then do you make them up? Or I imagine an easier way is to compare...

 

Once you're fine with this idea, then some things seem sweeter and some negative things don't have quite so much weight.

 

I wonder if some cultures aren't more prone than others to believing that everything can always be positive all the time? In which case, could that possibly explain all the neuroleptics it consumes?

 

 

Cheers,

 

Kate

[Pietro]

This is a cool discussion. I'll throw in (sorry no stats available but I suppose I could go off and find the studies, probably in Daniel G's book):

 

- your happiness with respect to your wealth (assuming basic needs are met) could be very dependent on who you compare yourself with. This is why people try to 'keep up with the Jones'' - despite not knowing Mr and Mrs Jones' real subjective level of happiness.

 

I guess the solution to that one is to stop comparing.

- your happiness with respect to what is probable in terms of gain in wealth. Note I didn't say 'possible'.

 

I suppose it's another kind of comparison. We have mostly all heard of the 'American Dream'. People who are unable to attain that (possibility, not probability) may being kicking themselves down because they think they ought to be able to achieve it and when they can't, they reject themselves, get depressed etc.

 

It's apparently more likely that kids will not gain or lose very many income points over the course of their lives in comparison with their parents and that any 'parental' effect takes 3 generations to stop having an effect.

 

So while rags to riches (and the opposite) stories have been built up into myth (probably a reason for that;-)) in practice, you're most likely to be about as well off as your parents.

The final idea is not really money-related but it's more about accepting that we cannot definitively drive away all negativity, and that this is probably not desirable as there has to be some if you want to experience positive things, in fact, if there isn't, then you can't because you need a negative thing to compare it to. What a circle!

 

So I guess if you don't have any negative things for yourself, then do you make them up? Or I imagine an easier way is to compare...

 

Once you're fine with this idea, then some things seem sweeter and some negative things don't have quite so much weight.

 

I wonder if some cultures aren't more prone than others to believing that everything can always be positive all the time? In which case, could that possibly explain all the neuroleptics it consumes?

Cheers,

 

Kate

 

Hi Kate, welcome to our little discussion.

 

Have you actually read the book? Because you cite it, and indeed what you say is probably inside it.

I am right now going through the 6 hours of the audiobook, and I am quite amazed.

 

Saying that people define their happiness because they compare does not give justice to the level of analysis that this guy presents. People who compare themselves respect the past, respect the future, respect what they lose, respect to what they gain, and mostly respect to the surrounding, and so on. The book really present his case very well indeed, and there are many clarifications on how, and why things are this way. And why those comparisons are made rapidly, inevitably, and mostly unconsciously. And how we make them even when we have been told that we should avoid doing them.

 

For me I realised why I keep on buying books that I will never read;

I start by comparing the book with the money: I rather have this book then this money.

Then once I have the book I compare spending my time reading the book, or reading the other books.

And the result is that my suitcase is always much heavier in coming back.

 

You are spot on in saying that some cultures are better off, when they do not expect everything to be perfect. I think the western world is known for this, but I also remember someone (I am sorry, I don't remember who) who presenting some data over happiness explained that

a.) above a certain threashold money does not count.

b.) what seem to have a big effect is what is the philosophy of life of the people.

 

And because of b.) they now had a problem.

 

You see they were actually supposed to go back to the government to say how to increase the happiness of the people, but how are they going to go back and say:

-mister prime minister, to make people happy you need to make advertisments and explain them that "shit happens".

 

Not the kind of policy that would get you re elected.

 

Thanks for explaining what keeping up with the Jones really meant. I seriously thought the Jones was an index, like inflation.

[Birch]

Hi Petro,

 

Yep, I read the book around a year ago or so. I know, I don't do it justice because it is so well written.

 

I liked what you said about comparing with oneself. I`m not very sure that I do that so much any more as the payoffs are higher when you don't. You can take the pressure off;-)

 

The other book I'd recommend in a similar vein is called 'Enough' and I can't remember the author. It's more about what drives us people to want stuff and more stuff all the time.

 

According to this guy, it's not really our 'fault' but more like we just haven`t evolved ALL of our brains at the same speed (or we have some evolutionary survival hangovers) so we're stuck with some quaint ideas about scarcity and the like (I can't remember all of it).

 

Also makes a case for why we get so freaked out when we hear about some random violent event on the other side of the world. Lots of other goodies in there.

 

One of the things I took away from that one is that it's actually more enjoyable for people to desire things than to satisfy those desires.

 

As I think I've already said, how boring is going to the store when you actually NEED something ;-)?

 

Cheers,

 

Kate

[Pietro]

The other book I'd recommend in a similar vein is called 'Enough' and I can't remember the author. It's more about what drives us people to want stuff and more stuff all the time.

 

Hi Kate,

thanks.

 

Do you think you could pick the book out of a line?

 

Because there are quite some books titled "Enough".

Also included one that is only available for 100$, used!

 

As I think I've already said, how boring is going to the store when you actually NEED something ;-)?

 

especially shoes, eh

 

Pietro

[Birch]

Hi Kate,

thanks.

 

Do you think you could pick the book out of a line?

 

Because there are quite some books titled "Enough".

Also included one that is only available for 100$, used!

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Enough-Breaking-Free...854&sr=8-16

 

That would be it! Hahahahhahaha!

 

Try here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Enough-Breaking-fr...7080&sr=1-1

 

--shoes-- he had to mention the shoes

[Yoda]

It seems to me that young kids are best at being happy and the ability seems to decline linearly with age.

 

One chap said that of people who age and stay healthy, those tend to get happier with age starting after 50 (if I remember correctly) and that the 30s are the crappiest.

 

Does the audio book get into this at all?

 

Anyone have any opinions on the happiness level of pets vs wild animals?

[picnic]

It seems to me that young kids are best at being happy and the ability seems to decline linearly with age.

 

One chap said that of people who age and stay healthy, those tend to get happier with age starting after 50 (if I remember correctly) and that the 30s are the crappiest.

 

Does the audio book get into this at all?

 

Anyone have any opinions on the happiness level of pets vs wild animals?

 

animals, trees, those who do not ask questions and are happy to grow and decay with nature must be best off (not that i can vouch for any of them). I have considered life as a tree, water buffalo and dog in a dog loving house, to all be good. The only risk the dog has is that an overly loving owner could over-feed them to a point of obesity.

 

As for ageing, the key would be yielding and flexibility. Set ways and a set mind are the route to stiffening for the coffin. A flexible open mind, is healthy and happy for old and young.

 

There is definitely a Tao Te Ching passage saying just that, and more clearly, but I won't dig it out.

[Mal]

and that the 30s are the crappiest.

So it gets better from here

 

Anyone have any opinions on the happiness level of pets vs wild animals?

 

Well considering how my cats behaviour became much "happier" when we turned the air conditioner on yesterday, I'd say much happier. But then they had the stress of competing with the monkeys for the "best" chairs in the "coolest" place so perhaps they would have been happier outside in the heat waiting for sunset

 

Thought provoking thread, cool stuff.

[Mal]

[Pietro]

[Mal]

So anyone remember any issues from the end of last year? (yes) do they still matter (no)

[JEN_A_KINS]

i'm happy!

 

i would have to agree that the majority of what happens to a person does not contribute to their overall happiness. people who were abused as children don't necessarily live unhappy lives.......on the other hand, people who had wonderful childhoods can be truly miserable and unhappy. thanks for posting...enjoying the topic.

[Pietro]

Thanks for having resurrected this thread.

I kept on researching on this topic in the meantime.

 

I just would like to point out that the author of the TED talk presented a book. The book is available in audio format, and if you are happy with that can be illegally downloaded from piratebay (or was it gigapedia?). In any case it is really good. It deepens the whole issue, what is just a mirage during the TED talk becomes facts, and concepts. The book is easy to find, the title has the word "happiness" inside ;-)

 

Daniel Gilbert: Stumbling on Happiness

[Mal]

BTT again as I really like this thread (obviously) And it is a very inspirational concept when stuck in the middle of dark current events to know it's really not as important as you think

[jak3b]

This rework of a saying seems to fit...

 

"If the (financially) rich and the poor man both lose all they have... who suffers more?"

I saw most happiness in india, vietnam, very much in Lao, cambodia, a lot in thailand. Less in the states,

 

I second that,Ive spent alot of time in north east Thailand and was always amazed at the general level of happiness people had.After 3 or 4 months there coming back to the states was like coming back to hell.

Part of what they have there is in the Thai phrase you hear alot "Mai Ben Rai" which loosely translates to Its no big thing.They say it alot.

[Pietro]

BTT again as I really like this thread (obviously) And it is a very inspirational concept when stuck in the middle of dark current events to know it's really not as important as you think

 

Thanks Mal, for reviving this thread .

[Mal]

Made me recall this thread

[My Meditation Year]

I wonder if there's not an alternative hypothesis for the data from which these conclusions are drawn.

 

It might not be that "most things don't matter", but rather that everything matters, to the extent that any attempt to measure the effect of any one event on happiness will be defeated. Any event you wish to measure is just one small "nudge" in an endless ocean of nudges that effect you day after day after day. But they all matter, and add up to a kind of random walk of happiness.

 

How could you distinguish between these hypotheses?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Just as an observation... It seems that when i'm not thinking about 'happiness' or 'unhappiness' or variations.. life's pretty cool.. and, if i'm honest with myself, i think the best i 'feel' is sensing the spontaneous joy of others.. it's like contagious... and, in the quiet times, alone with nature.. realizing the sacred nature of this relationship with Life..

 

OOooh, that reminded me of a quote: 'Worship nothing, yet maintain a sacred reverence for ALL things'..

 

Be well..

[Pietro]

I wonder if there's not an alternative hypothesis for the data from which these conclusions are drawn.

 

It might not be that "most things don't matter", but rather that everything matters, to the extent that any attempt to measure the effect of any one event on happiness will be defeated. Any event you wish to measure is just one small "nudge" in an endless ocean of nudges that effect you day after day after day. But they all matter, and add up to a kind of random walk of happiness.

 

How could you distinguish between these hypotheses?

 

 

If it was a random walk it would move around, instead it remains at the same place.

 

Molecules under brownian molecules move around, and the average distance is correlated with the time passed.

Instead here it would be like you measure the position of the molecule at big time interval and find no change. SO it would be like measuring a molecule and finding out that it's distance from where you measured the first time does not correlate with time.

So I would say they are quite safe respect to the objection you bring.

 

But thanks for having chipped in. I think it is always a very interesting subject.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Great thank you!

[SFJane]

I watched the video and it was pretty neat. Talk about left brain overdose though. So much science to prove to me what seems obvious. I'll give you an example. During my time as a ward of the State, I did not have a lot of control over my life. At one point, during a transfer from a foster home to a more restrictive group home the social workers lost almost everything I owned. I had already lost my home, my family and contact with my friends.

 

When I first heard that all my stuff was gone I was just so angry. After awhile I realized that I no longer had anything to worry about. Losing all my belongings freed me from them. A year later they found some of my stuff but not all of it. I could not remember all that was missing. I let it go when I thought I would never get it back. Getting some of it back was neat, but now I owned stuff I could lose again!

 

That lesson carried me into my adult life. One of the things that used to make me both angry and depressed was that I had been set back so badly from a 'normal life'. Most of my friends were in college. Teachers had told me when I was young that I was smart enough that I might go to an Ivy League School someday. When I became an adult I wasn't prepared for life much less college much less a competitive college.

 

My mentally ill parents passed their emotional and behavioral crap to me. I lost my shit and got put in lockdown and an entire possibility of my young adult future was taken from me. As a young adult I felt all these conflicting, subconscious compulsions that I had been programmed by society. Get a degree. Get a job. Get a family. Make money. Buy stuff. Be happy. I couldn't do any of them though because I didn't know how to acquire those things.

 

When you can't even keep a job at a fast food restaurant because of your mental health problems, that whole making money, buying stuff, having kids thing seems out of your reach. You start to suffer from wanting what other people have. Such as the seeming happiness that their accomplishments ie Master's Degree, 6 digit salary, new home in the hills bring them.

 

I got involved with the Water Method practice of letting go of our desires and our past programming and in time I became very happy being alone, living by myself, being poor. When my friends were working on their thesis or getting their first mortgage or acquiring credit card debt I was practicing meditation and letting go. By the time I got into my mid 20s it was clear that I was much happier and far less stressed than my friends who had so much 'stuff' and financial means with which to amuse themselves.