Taiji Article with Sifu Adam Mizner

[pleasantfiction]

The aim of training is to destroy all self, all impurity, all disharmony, all weakness and defilement, like weeding a garden.

 

The aim of combat, when it's necessary, is to conquer, to pacify, not to destroy.

 

Conquer oneself, and what enmity can persist?

 

All of us are well able to nod in agreement to such words, but the essence of their meaning is often missing is the small, quiet spaces of our practices, in the gaps between training methods, in the obscure pre-mind fecundity from which our motivations for training arise.

 

Talk is cheap.

 

99% right is still 100% wrong.

 

Pride is fear.

 

My impression of taiji quan, as a martial art, is that when trained properly, it has the potential to eclipse all other martial arts completely. Not just because it's a better system of techniques, strategies and views, but because it is something else altogether, something more than a martial art. That taiji functions equally as martial art, medicine, and meditative practice is simply an indicator of the lucidity of said principle. As such, my standard of "good taiji" has always been the degree to which the practice yields development of Mind, well being, and transcendentally scary martial ability.

 

I'm nothing, but I've been lucky enough to have worked with top rate taiji men, from strong Taiwanese family schools, to European adepts, to the very best that WuDang has to offer; enough to know real power and skill when I see it. I've rolled with boys from the Gracie school, and dabbled in some Pikiti Tersia Kali. I've worked with Sifu Mizner, and he is easily and by far the scariest fighter I've ever met, whilst simultaneously being one of the calmest and most precise.

 

All there is for it is to test a man's kung fu first hand. Anything short of that is loathsome conjecture.

 

Spirit Ape, it is obvious that you love kung fu as much as anyone. Why not just make it a point to find out for yourself. Few things eat at a man's soul like curiosity.

 

Metta

[Spirit Ape]

:)Well i dont share your views on combat sorry! Im out to destroy the enemy and conquor my own fears nothing more.

 

I didnt say his art sucked or he sucked im saying IN MY OPINION that i think bouncing people means jack sh!t and to me that is not internal power but good leverage!

 

By the way i teach internal kung fu as well Hakka so i also know internal when i see it!

 

Have a great day mate...

 

Ape

[Aetherous]

In my view, for realistic combat, if you ignore the great aspects of taiji training you'll miss out on a lot. And if you ignore the great aspects of more aggressive training, you'll miss a lot. It's all good and worthwhile training, period.

 

But sometimes training isn't just for combat. So we shouldn't say it's useless, just because some aspects aren't directly related to beating the crap out of someone. It has other purposes as well.

 

My 2 cents as a non practitioner.

[Stigweard]

[Spirit Ape]

Nice scotty!

 

I believe internal martial arts at a higher level is all about self realization and not just about fighting, the bouncing does have its place but not truly neccessary in my system of teaching. That being said yeah we can do this and we do do this but its not a very high level or training for us its kind of basic understanding of centerline and leverage training and has nothing to do with what i consider Internal Power.

 

For Adam,

 

My post wasnt to defame you or your art, sorry you or your student took it that way!

 

respectfully

Spirit Ape

[adam mizner]

[adam mizner]

montague.. i thought we were talking about taiji not comedy

metta

adam

 

Anyway its fine mate, its good that people are out there showing Taiji again from Oz, following Erle Montague another ozzy!

 

Peace

Ape

 

 

montague.. i thought we were talking about taiji not comedy

metta

adam

 

Anyway its fine mate, its good that people are out there showing Taiji again from Oz, following Erle Montague another ozzy!

 

Peace

Ape

[HupGerk]

Now really...

 

 

Why take a cheap shot at Erle? I wonder, did you tell him that you think he is a comedian while he was still living in Oz?

 

HG

[pleasantfiction]

:)Well i dont share your views on combat sorry! Im out to destroy the enemy and conquor my own fears nothing more. -Spiritape

 

You may have enemies if you wish to.

 

Not my cup of tea.

 

 

I didnt say his art sucked or he sucked im saying IN MY OPINION that i think bouncing people means jack sh!t and to me that is not internal power but good leverage! - Spiritape

 

The words "in my opinion" are usually redundant. Everything one says, in earnest, is one's opinion. We are responsible for our opinions, even if only to ourselves.

 

Aside, may I respectfully request an explanation of your views on internal power, wherein leverage does not play a part?

 

 

By the way i teach internal kung fu as well Hakka so i also know internal when i see it!

Have a great day mate... - Spiritape

 

 

I'm no master, and as yet I still have to see, touch, and then train to truly absorb internal principles from a sifu. I usually find them extremely subtle and counter intuitive, and the actual, experiential mechanics of body, energy, and mind almost never turn out to be what my first, rough impression of them was.

 

Those who can fully understand the internal workings from sight alone have my inherent respect.

 

I look forward to such skill, and to my time with those who might teach it to me.

 

Metta

Edited November 15, 2008 by pleasantfiction

[Spirit Ape]

Haha not my cuppa tea also!

 

Leverage is found in any art if they choose to look for it and use those principles its about finding the person center and once you find it its pretty simple to off balance someone. I do agree these guys are showing these principles well but like i said is see internal power as a complete different meaning and understanding. I read that these guys do a type of no contact Lin Kong Jing skill if so that is close to what im talking about as well type of striking power but i dont see the bouncing type force as True internal power if you understand where im coming from?

 

Hope that clears up my opinion comments if not im not getting into a arguement anymore on this as we both see things differently and thats all it is, so dont get it twisted mate!

 

APe

[adam mizner]

ok, this is a topic of interest. what is internal power... firstly you cannot lever something with a soft object, so the bouncing is not leverage. taiji power comes from the use of the body in a hydrolic way, this jin can be directed through a very soft bridge which is very different to leverage. i am intersted in others ideas of what internal power is. also some vids of demonstrating it.

 

metta

adam

 

:)Well i dont share your views on combat sorry! Im out to destroy the enemy and conquor my own fears nothing more.

 

I didnt say his art sucked or he sucked im saying IN MY OPINION that i think bouncing people means jack sh!t and to me that is not internal power but good leverage!

 

By the way i teach internal kung fu as well Hakka so i also know internal when i see it!

 

Have a great day mate...

 

Ape

[Spirit Ape]

Hi Adam

 

I think to a degree there is definetly some internal body aspects to bouncing people away, for instance i did it today with my student without trying or using any force but i felt it was just good old timing, technique with leverage, if you want to call it internal power then "Hey that was internal power".

 

I think on an internal level that this type of work "Bouncing" has a degree of internal knowledge if that is what is meant as internal power i totally agree 100%!

 

Thanks for the chat....

 

Ape

[Mal]

[Spirit Ape]

I met early in the 80's and 90's he is a real nice chap, he has taken his Taiji on his own journey just like every other person doing there own systems. We all express the arts ourselves using the principles that WE think or see is correct.

 

What is internal Power, well to some Mal maybe what Lama MAX does on the clip at jennys school to his student when he touches his arm and he starts jumping around is internal power like lin kong jing , john chang (defo internal power) to some its striking power or destructive force that stops or crushes organs, spines, skulls, to some it might be bouncing people around with the slightest movements, internal power also can be used as a healing hands/palms. I think Internal Power is expressed in all of the above some more so then others! IMHO..

 

 

Ape

[seeker]

Cheers Adam,

 

Sorry for the mix up, it was a great video and I'm disappointed that I wasn't able to fly down for the Brisbane seminar this October.

 

Sweet clip

I LOVE elbows looks like tong long too

 

{edit this should be after spirit apes post }

They are bouncing people for "training" so as not to hurt them. I'm sure it would be plenty painful if that was the effect they wanted. eg. people look at us and go "why are you slapping each other in the head with no power?" While it would be fun to bounce a few friends, rather than hit them, It's the "power" of this that intrests me.

 

Hi Ape,

 

my background is mostly in chow gar tong long, but have recently changed to HME Tai Ji when I met Sifu Nicholas Karram.

 

I understand your position but as has been stated before, the bouncing is a result of training "long" energy so as not to hurt the training partner. from my experience you could use this type of force to defend yourself without hurting your opponent(if you so choose).

 

That being said i can personally vouch for the power developed in this school. At the most recent seminar on the Gold Coast One of Sifu Mizners Senior instructors was correcting the technique of a new student and demonstrating on me.

 

One strike to the ribs only and he was being gentle, I was lifted by the sheer force of the strike and my ribs have still not recovered, almost 4 weeks later.

 

This is only my limited understanding but The expression of fa jin is determined by the mental intent, and if the persons life is threatened instead of sending the force through the body it can be focused inside the body to damage organs or break bones.

 

Please come and see for yourself, all are welcome.

[Spirit Ape]

Thanks for the invite seeker would love to come around one day when time permits but not too much time on my hands as being a father family man. I wasnt doubting Adams skills at all i can see he can do what he does well. Just that internal power means different to others and that internal power comes from nothing to somthing, hard or soft, circles and squares. Tao is a beautiful thing really and understanding energy is what can lead to the highest levels of mind body spirit!

 

cheers

Ape

[adam mizner]

[Mal]

Hi Adam,

 

Thank you for thinking of me

 

I would love to do some training. I'll start saving now. As soon as you know dates let me know and I'll start booking flights and looking for accommodation.

 

Cheers

[adam mizner]

hi Mal

 

will do, i am sure one of the students will be able to put you up with somewhere to stay

 

metta

adam

 

Hi Adam,

 

Thank you for thinking of me

 

I would love to do some training. I'll start saving now. As soon as you know dates let me know and I'll start booking flights and looking for accommodation.

 

Cheers

[andymach33]

Hi Adam,

 

Thank you for thinking of me

 

I would love to do some training. I'll start saving now. As soon as you know dates let me know and I'll start booking flights and looking for accommodation.

 

Cheers

 

 

Hi Mal, i will be on the Gold Coast for the seminar aswell. It will be nice to see you there.

 

Take care,

 

Andrew

[adam mizner]

hi Mal

 

sorry you missed the seminar last weekend, ran smoothly and was fun. i will post when the video is done. hope your training is going well

 

metta

adam

 

Hi Adam,

 

Thank you for thinking of me

 

I would love to do some training. I'll start saving now. As soon as you know dates let me know and I'll start booking flights and looking for accommodation.

 

Cheers

[Mal]

Glad to hear you guys had fun, I was disappointed not to be able to make it.

 

Still there is always next time, I know how to approach these sort of thing properly now

 

I'm also flying down for a weekend in November (21,22) which should only be the 21st for Tong Long. (day not confirmed) If that happens I hope to be able to fit in a private session with Nick on the Sunday.

 

Will see how it all unfolds this time

[adam mizner]

i am sure nick would be more than happy to give you a lesson, are they having a tong long comp this year?

metta

adam

 

Glad to hear you guys had fun, I was disappointed not to be able to make it.

 

Still there is always next time, I know how to approach these sort of thing properly now

 

I'm also flying down for a weekend in November (21,22) which should only be the 21st for Tong Long. (day not confirmed) If that happens I hope to be able to fit in a private session with Nick on the Sunday.

 

Will see how it all unfolds this time

[Mal]

[Josh Young]

Im not saying Taiji is bad or doesnt work im saying that bouncing people has nothing to do with reality fighting or even MMA .

Comparing MMA to Taiji is like comparing playing paintball to being in a war. Taijiquan is not a sport, it is not sport fighting. Sport fighting has many rules, such as "no unsportsmanlike conduct" taiji is not concerned with sport fighting, it is not about violence either, the martial side of it is but one small part of a rich system.

 

Bouncing people is the safest way to issue energy into them, or redirect energy into them. We do not hurt our training partners. The same openings that allow us to redirect and bounce someone could be used to main or kill them. The amount of energy involved in a bounce can easily break limbs, crush a windpipe or stop a heart. The truth is that most goods taijiplayers know this well enough to not tell you about it, we are not interested in teaching thugs to kill, it is an art about self development. There has been a very strong effort for many years to hide the lethality of taijiquan from those whose interest in martial arts comes not out of a quest for personal mastery but rather comes from a thirst for conflict and violence. Let the animalistic people get into the ring and do what they will, however the conflation of sport fighting with martial arts has gone one too long. The Gracie system is proven in many contexts, but it is the person, not the system, that attains excellence. You will never obtain enlightenment through Gracie sportfighting, if you think you can compare BJJ to taijiquan you are severely mistaken.

 

Im sure Adam is a fine teacher if bouncing people is what you are after and of course his taiji!

No real taijiquan teaches bouncing as application. However it is a skill that should not be underestimated, people get knocked out this way fairly often by hitting the wall and or the floor. Taijiquan has far more to it than the eyes of an outsider can every pick up.

 

 

Maybe go and test your Taiji in Lampeedee stadium against the Thai Boxers? If you win using your bouncing Jing i would be hugly impressed and take back any negative comments of bouncing people around.

This is a radical conflation of the test of violence as a test of a taijiquan. Those who insist upon such tests have little comprehension or understanding of taijiquan or the very concept of self defense which is to minimize chances of conflict. No self defense is had by entering into contests of violence.

There is always someone bigger, faster or stronger, there is no man in any martial art that cannot know defeat.

 

William CC Chen and Zhang Qin Lin have both proven taijiquan can be used for sport fighting. That it was used for actual combat by having Luchan teach imperial troops should not be forgotten either.

In the case of Zhang Qin Lin, he won an open fighting tournament in which people died, as a matter of fact he used lu to strike a man in the side of the head and the man died. CC Chen also won an open fighting tournament. Those who know taiji well know that the martial side of it is well proven to be effective and lethal, however they also know that the spiritual aspects of it are the primary focus.

 

I rather prefer that taijiquan gets constantly underestimated. This allows us to see the frauds who have altered the art and changed things having not understood the art due to not having received the actual transmissions, including about things like fa-jing and fang-song. Not understanding how and why taiji was effective they modified it according to what they think it should be, they then insist that their students don't read the classics and worse will tell you that form training is a traditional and effective way to develop skill, this is not so. The training of the 13 postures classically culminated in the transmission of the form, it certainly didn't begin with nor emphasize the form for training but rather relies upon a comprehensive and systematically progressive series of drills and practices including weapons training.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Josh Young