The power of Internal Martial Arts

[JessOBrien]

Hi Sloppy Zhang,

 

What you've said here is pretty accurate. Liu found the Taoist sect that Dong Hai Quan had learned from. Although he was already an accomplished martial artist and meditator, he spent 10 years in Sichuan learning circle walking Taoism from these monks.

 

That is one of the factors that sets BKF's system apart. Most Ba Gua people aren't too interested in meditation in the first place. It's useful to a point, but going all the way with meditation is more work than most people want to put in, me included!

 

Over the last week we've been training with Bruce in the material the Liu learned in the mountains. Last week we spent a LOT of work on opening up the energy of the eyes and brain and feet all simultaneously, so that the upper body and lower body can be woven together at an extremely deep level. It's very, very tiring and requires a level of concentration and focus that I can barely pull together. But it sure makes my head and feet feel interesting. I've only barely touched on the work that goes with these training methods, but it's already made a difference in my sitting and sparring practice.

 

At this point Bruce is determined to leave all the martial arts aspects of Ba Gua behind and focus entirely on the Taoist material that Liu taught him within the circle walking. This is unfortunate because Bruce's combat skill with Ba Gua is high level, I've been on the receiving end many times and it's brutal. However, the meditation aspects are worth preserving, so I'm happy that he's passing some of that on before it's entirely lost.

 

One thing for sure, Ba Gua Zhang is a very deep study, and has so many twists and turns along the way. I really enjoy it!

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O

[Adj]

Honestly,

 

There is way too much focus on fighting. If anyone actually watched the video the speaker says combat is secondary.

 

Developing CHI is primary.

 

We are posting in this forum in the pursuit of Chi gong. We are called the TAO BUMS!

 

Should the discussion be about CHI instead of combat?

 

 

In terms of Developing CHI baguazang Xing I chuan and taichi chuan are WAY better than BJJ and silat.

 

hehehehe

 

And imagine how much more effective BJJ would be with INTERNAL power? Complete mental focus and concentration instead of engaging the ego which is the key motivator in most BJJ fighting, even when practicing in BJJ schools.

 

 

The best fighters I know of are calm and confident and they never get into a fight cause no one messes with them, they naturally lead with the a VIBE of confidence and internal belief which traditional martial arts develops.

 

BJJ statistically causes MORE fights because it develops the ego, not CHI. -grin-

 

 

Anyway, Chi development is key, cause it produces longevity and health.

 

In a world with GUNS, martial arts for the sake of fighting is a waste of time and energy and that effort should instead be spent developing chi.

 

Also the internal martial arts of Tai Chi, ba gua and xing I do not damage the body and can be practiced well into old age to maintain health and vitality and you will become more effective at them as your chi cultivates.

 

BJJ and other externals like karate you are only effective at as a youth. As you get old they become impossible because it literally damages the body and the mind.

 

In a world of guns why would you train in something that would DAMAGE the body?!?!?! Its pointless, you are hurting yourself for no reason! Its a waste!

 

I am a martial arts instructor and have been practicing for 15 years, I began with the externals and both my knees are messed up and now I mainly practice the internals. For my health, longevity, and vitality.

 

 

-Adj

[h.uriahr]

Honestly,

 

There is way too much focus on fighting. If anyone actually watched the video the speaker says combat is secondary.

 

Developing CHI is primary.

 

We are posting in this forum in the pursuit of Chi gong. We are called the TAO BUMS!

 

Should the discussion be about CHI instead of combat?

In terms of Developing CHI baguazang Xing I chuan and taichi chuan are WAY better than BJJ and silat.

 

hehehehe

 

And imagine how much more effective BJJ would be with INTERNAL power? Complete mental focus and concentration instead of engaging the ego which is the key motivator in most BJJ fighting, even when practicing in BJJ schools.

The best fighters I know of are calm and confident and they never get into a fight cause no one messes with them, they naturally lead with the a VIBE of confidence and internal belief which traditional martial arts develops.

 

BJJ statistically causes MORE fights because it develops the ego, not CHI. -grin-

Anyway, Chi development is key, cause it produces longevity and health.

 

In a world with GUNS, martial arts for the sake of fighting is a waste of time and energy and that effort should instead be spent developing chi.

 

Also the internal martial arts of Tai Chi, ba gua and xing I do not damage the body and can be practiced well into old age to maintain health and vitality and you will become more effective at them as your chi cultivates.

 

BJJ and other externals like karate you are only effective at as a youth. As you get old they become impossible because it literally damages the body and the mind.

 

In a world of guns why would you train in something that would DAMAGE the body?!?!?! Its pointless, you are hurting yourself for no reason! Its a waste!

 

I am a martial arts instructor and have been practicing for 15 years, I began with the externals and both my knees are messed up and now I mainly practice the internals. For my health, longevity, and vitality.

-Adj

 

BJJ statistically causes MORE fights because it develops the ego, not CHI. -grin-

 

Where did you find those statistics?

[Sloppy Zhang]

This is a good vid that I found a while ago, for all the hardcore grappling fans out there:

 

 

 

There is way too much focus on fighting. If anyone actually watched the video the speaker says combat is secondary.

 

Developing CHI is primary.

 

We are posting in this forum in the pursuit of Chi gong. We are called the TAO BUMS!

 

Should the discussion be about CHI instead of combat?

In terms of Developing CHI baguazang Xing I chuan and taichi chuan are WAY better than BJJ and silat.

 

hehehehe

 

 

In a world with GUNS, martial arts for the sake of fighting is a waste of time and energy and that effort should instead be spent developing chi.

 

 

In a world of guns why would you train in something that would DAMAGE the body?!?!?! Its pointless, you are hurting yourself for no reason! Its a waste!

 

I disagree with the points that people make that just because guns are around, it makes training martial arts for combat useless. I think that's a very limited opinion, and honestly rather stupid.

 

Just because there are guns out there, doesn't mean that HE (an aggressor/assaulter) has a gun, and it doesn't mean that YOU have a gun.

 

If he has a gun, well you better just do what he says and hope he doesn't kill you. Maybe you can disarm the gun, MAYBE, but that's a whole different topic, so we're just gonna leave that scenario with "do what he says".

 

If YOU have a gun, and especially if he doesn't, you have to have just cause to FIRE the gun. If you aren't justified, you could get into serious trouble.

 

Now, when does a fight begin? How does a fight start? Fights in "real life" don't start like they do in a match, with two guys squaring themselves up. Sometimes a fight moves from words to shoves to fists. Sometimes it's just some guy who comes up to you swinging. Sometimes a punch is never thrown. A fight can escalate quickly, almost instantly, but it DOES escalate. It moves from a non-violent situation to violent. So let's say some guy is mouthing off on you.... do you shoot him? Uhh.... no. Let's say he pushes you. Do you shoot him? Uh.... no. Let's say he grabs your arm and say, tries to intimidate you. Do you shoot him NOW? Let's say he throws a wild swing at you. DO YOU SHOOT HIM NOW? WHEN do you shoot him? What will give you the cause? Are you willing to wait until a fight escalates to the highest phase before you can end it with your gun?

 

No way.

 

With some simple self defense skills, skills you acquire by training a real martial art for PHYSICAL APPLICATIONS, you can shrug off a push. Some guy pushes you, you know how to handle it, you can walk away. He's gonna probably call you a wimp or something like that, but who cares? Take the high road, don't let it escalate. Remember: FIGHTS ESCALATE. Most people aren't out looking for a fight. If they get physical, they are probably just trying to intimidate you. Heck some of them might not even want to fight, they just want to look like they do, strutting around and all that. Someone shoves you, or grabs you and tries to pull you over somewhere.... is that just cause to shoot? Don't you wish you can end the situation ASAP? There are plenty of ways to do that, just a simple twist of the wrist, proper body movement, and you can dissolves, NULLIFY a fight before it escalates.

 

There are HUNDREDS of scenarios that occur every day in the real world that can be solved simply by having trained martial arts for their PHYSICAL application. To say you don't need martial arts for physical use anymore because we have guns now.... is stupid. Sorry, no offense. I'm not saying an individual is stupid... just that notion is stupid.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Adj]

I disagree with the points that people make that just because guns are around, it makes training martial arts for combat useless. I think that's a very limited opinion, and honestly rather stupid.

 

 

Thats okay, you can call me stupid. You talked a lot about disagreements escalating... im glad you don't do that by calling names.

 

I used to be a bouncer, and people who train in martial arts for the wrong reasons are always the idiots causing the fights or some drunk person.

 

Discipline, self respect, the knowledge that you COULD take care of yourself, confidence, a commanding and martial VIBE really are the key benefits to martial arts training.

 

Self defense is important, but honestly, HONESTLY, unless you live in a violent area studying martial arts ONLY for fighting is a waste of time because you will get hit by lightning before you get into a serious life or death fight.

 

Training martial arts that damage your body for the ONLY purpose of knowing how to fight is even worse, it is counter productive!!!!! Why would you do something that shortens your life to defend against something that will rarely happen and is VERY VERY VERY preventable?

 

All martial arts that don't focus on cultivating chi first eventually DAMAGE the body.

 

Imagine learning martial arts to learn self defense in order to extend your life but you actually shorten it through thousands of hours of practice in over exciting your glands and senses. We were evolved to rarely get into a fight, but to FLOOD your body with those chemicals of adrenal and so on from DAILY practice damages the organs and causes amazing stagnation all across the body as a whole.

 

Argument on what is effective or what is not is meaningless, because fights are preventable. There are no more duels, no one is going to challenge you to a fight, everything is preventable. And fighting will just land you in jail.

 

I-sue-you is the modern day martial arts. You are better off letting the guy punching you in the stomach, acting like it hurt and like he won, all the bouncers will throw him out, everyone will help you up and buy you drinks and then you sue him for violent assault.

 

 

Call me stupid, but at least be honest.

[h.uriahr]

Thats okay, you can call me stupid. You talked a lot about disagreements escalating... im glad you don't do that by calling names.

 

I used to be a bouncer, and people who train in martial arts for the wrong reasons are always the idiots causing the fights or some drunk person.

 

Discipline, self respect, the knowledge that you COULD take care of yourself, confidence, a commanding and martial VIBE really are the key benefits to martial arts training.

 

Self defense is important, but honestly, HONESTLY, unless you live in a violent area studying martial arts ONLY for fighting is a waste of time because you will get hit by lightning before you get into a serious life or death fight.

 

Training martial arts that damage your body for the ONLY purpose of knowing how to fight is even worse, it is counter productive!!!!! Why would you do something that shortens your life to defend against something that will rarely happen and is VERY VERY VERY preventable?

 

All martial arts that don't focus on cultivating chi first eventually DAMAGE the body.

 

Imagine learning martial arts to learn self defense in order to extend your life but you actually shorten it through thousands of hours of practice in over exciting your glands and senses. We were evolved to rarely get into a fight, but to FLOOD your body with those chemicals of adrenal and so on from DAILY practice damages the organs and causes amazing stagnation all across the body as a whole.

 

Argument on what is effective or what is not is meaningless, because fights are preventable. There are no more duels, no one is going to challenge you to a fight, everything is preventable. And fighting will just land you in jail.

 

I-sue-you is the modern day martial arts. You are better off letting the guy punching you in the stomach, acting like it hurt and like he won, all the bouncers will throw him out, everyone will help you up and buy you drinks and then you sue him for violent assault.

Call me stupid, but at least be honest.

 

Where did you get your bjjj fight starting statistics? Most people I know that train in bjjj or any kind of "combat sport" arent really to interested in fighting on the street. On the contrary, they get their stress out in the gym and have an overall feel good attitude. I think your statistics are very incorrect.

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Sloppy Zhang]

I used to be a bouncer, and people who train in martial arts for the wrong reasons are always the idiots causing the fights or some drunk person.

 

Discipline, self respect, the knowledge that you COULD take care of yourself, confidence, a commanding and martial VIBE really are the key benefits to martial arts training.

 

Self defense is important, but honestly, HONESTLY, unless you live in a violent area studying martial arts ONLY for fighting is a waste of time because you will get hit by lightning before you get into a serious life or death fight.

 

That's the thing though, the best martial arts are holistic, they give you that confident and commanding "vibe", which can help you prevent something before it even happens. I agree that preventing a fight before it happens is your best bet. I agree with you that most people aren't going to get into serious fights if they don't live in a dangerous area. I agree that tons of things are preventable.

 

I just don't agree when you made the assertion that people place "too much emphasis on fighting". I'm NOT saying you should ONLY practice for fighting. The best thing you should do is train in all the areas.

 

Training martial arts that damage your body for the ONLY purpose of knowing how to fight is even worse, it is counter productive!!!!! Why would you do something that shortens your life to defend against something that will rarely happen and is VERY VERY VERY preventable?

 

I don't know I don't train in ways that damage my body, you'll have to ask someone else for a more direct answer to that.

 

All martial arts that don't focus on cultivating chi first eventually DAMAGE the body.

 

I disagree with that. Maybe some extreme branches of real old school karate can get pretty damaged.... but most martial art traditions have realized that optimal fighting performance comes from a healthy body. While they may not train qi, flexibility, muscle strength, stamina, are increased to enhance fighting ability, which in turn creates a more healthy person.

 

Imagine learning martial arts to learn self defense in order to extend your life but you actually shorten it through thousands of hours of practice in over exciting your glands and senses. We were evolved to rarely get into a fight, but to FLOOD your body with those chemicals of adrenal and so on from DAILY practice damages the organs and causes amazing stagnation all across the body as a whole.

 

Again, not all arts are like that. I can see that point of view stemming from karate and perhaps some dangerous and misused shaolin practices.

 

Argument on what is effective or what is not is meaningless, because fights are preventable. There are no more duels, no one is going to challenge you to a fight, everything is preventable.

 

No, not everything is preventable. A LOT of things are preventable. I would think that as a bouncer you would know that there are sometimes just random acts of violence. Sometimes people go out LOOKING for a fight, and sometimes an otherwise innocent person is the target. When you are the innocent person, wouldn't it be nice to defend yourself?

 

And fighting will just land you in jail.

 

Only if you can't prove that you had a reason to defend yourself, or if you used excessive force. That's where real martial arts application training comes in handy. You first learn to 1) prevent escalation of a situation, but if that doesn't work 2) nullify a situation or, in worse case scenarios 3) defeat someone with the APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF FORCE. What I mean by that last bit is that if he grabs you, all you need to do is do a quick turn of the wrist, maybe a light strike or a push, then run away. You don't need to flip out and go all five finger palm of death or something. Martial arts that teach THAT as a response WILL get you in jail. But a well rounded PRACTICAL martial art will not be teaching that.

 

I-sue-you is the modern day martial arts. You are better off letting the guy punching you in the stomach, acting like it hurt and like he won, all the bouncers will throw him out, everyone will help you up and buy you drinks and then you sue him for violent assault.

 

That's great if you're at a club with some bouncers on hand. Oh, that's also assuming he only wants to punch you one time. That's also assuming he doesn't want to do something worse to you because you were dancing too close to his girl, or something like that. Random acts of violence will happen with no warning, I'd rather be prepared.

 

Call me stupid, but at least be honest.

 

For the most part, I agree with you. Martial arts that damage the body should be avoided. There are plenty of healthy arts out there that can build up physical vitality. But one shouldn't neglect MARTIAL aspects of the martial arts simply because we have guns and lawsuits. That's just stupid. Your gun at home won't help you when you're at the club. A lawyer on your speed dial won't help you when you try to leave a restaurant and someone starts to harass you. Martial arts were created for MARTIAL applications. Internal martial arts were still MARTIAL, the qi building and body cultivation was there to supplement the martial aspects. They were first and foremost MARTIAL arts, and damn well effective before the hippies got ahold of them (okay it wasn't really the hippies fault, but if you are familiar with the history of any of the IMA's you know how/when they started to decline martially in the mainstream).

 

You can't say "there's too much focus on fighting" they are MARTIAL arts!!!!!! Playing soccer will get you in shape, but does that mean we should neglect the game of soccer and focus on the health aspects? NO! The point of playing soccer is to play soccer, that's why it was invented, getting more in shape as a result was more of a side benefit. Same with martial arts. They were made to defend yourself, your family, village, country, etc. Becoming healthy was a RESULT of that.

 

I'm not saying focus JUST on fighting, again, as most good martial arts out there are pretty holistic. I'm not saying focus on fighting to the extent that you hurt your body, I agree that's counter productive. But I just don't like the way that a lot of people are handling martial arts these days, simply because we got guns and lawsuits.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Adj]

Where did you get your bjjj fight starting statistics? Most people I know that train in bjjj or any kind of "combat sport" arent really to interested in fighting on the street. On the contrary, they get their stress out in the gym and have an overall feel good attitude. I think your statistics are very incorrect.

 

Ill bring a source for you in a few days. Not BJJ in particular, but the training enviornment that BJJ and other MA used in MMA usual have.

[h.uriahr]

Ill bring a source for you in a few days. Not BJJ in particular, but the training enviornment that BJJ and other MA used in MMA usual have.

The training environment? I think you over extended yourself a bit. You cant prove that bjjj or mma practitioners are more inclined to starting random fights. I think you made an assumption because of your stance on learning how to defend yourself.

[Taiji Bum]

Where did you get your bjjj fight starting statistics? Most people I know that train in bjjj or any kind of "combat sport" arent really to interested in fighting on the street. On the contrary, they get their stress out in the gym and have an overall feel good attitude. I think your statistics are very incorrect.

The Judo place I work out at is the least ego centric place I have seen. You want to see egos go to a place where the "master" claims his stuff is soooooo deadly that your not allowed to spar. THATS an ego place. I thought karate had some egos without reason but internal guys who have never "taken it to the mats" are the worst. They usually have an idea that they are superhuman when the only thing superhuman about them is their delusional thinking that what they are practicing has any value.

[h.uriahr]

The Judo place I work out at is the least ego centric place I have seen. You want to see egos go to a place where the "master" claims his stuff is soooooo deadly that your not allowed to spar. THATS an ego place. I thought karate had some egos without reason but internal guys who have never "taken it to the mats" are the worst. They usually have an idea that they are superhuman when the only thing superhuman about them is their delusional thinking that what they are practicing has any value.

 

Exactly. George Dillman is one of them.

[Taiji Bum]

Exactly. George Dillman is one of them.

I used to be one too!

[h.uriahr]

I used to be one too!

It's ok Darin. What 12 step did you use? What artform did you practice?

[Taiji Bum]

It's ok Darin. What 12 step did you use? What artform did you practice?

My artform was/is Tai Chi. My 12 step was Judo. Tai Chi is still my love and primary art but now I am a lot more grounded about it.

[t_breez]

---deleted. Peace.

Edited February 13, 2009 by t_breez

[Sloppy Zhang]

Are there any hardcore xingyiquan people around here? People say that xingyiquan is one of the quickest of the internal styles to put into effect, with the saying that "tai chi stays in the practice hall for 10 years, while xingyi kills in one" and a lot of xingyi people really try to distance themselves from the image of "internal arts", that it's not all flowers and sunshine like all the tai chi hippies say internal arts are

 

Not to say we should be going around killing people but is there anyone here who trains with it seriously with a serious teacher and has seen its effectiveness first hand?

 

As someone who doesn't practice it, but has seen it and read a bit about it, it seems really cool how you can use internal power in a direct sort of "no nonsense" way, but then I look at my friend who has studied karate with a master from Okinawa for 6 years, he's got about 70 lbs on me, and his arms are three times the width of mine and I go "uh...... I think that evasion and running away would be better than trying to hit him with a bengquan...."

Edited February 13, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[orb]

My artform was/is Tai Chi. My 12 step was Judo. Tai Chi is still my love and primary art but now I am a lot more grounded about it.

 

 

Darin congrats on taking Judo, for a taichi guy to take such a step - it's really impressive.

 

 

Also somebody was complaining about having problems because training in external martial arts.

 

Check out this guy and consider his age and his weight.

 

 

1ye5DC7sVTw

[Guest sykkelpump]

Here is some example of the power of internal martial arts.just imagine what would have happen if this was a complete mma fighter from today.most people who have trained bjj/mma and other styles like karate,kung fu etc knows that you need real sparring trainig to learn how to fight.This is old clips,mma is on a much higher level today.I doubt martial arts is on a higher level today.they have been doing their same stupid forms for thousends of years.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=215Ai-2dFIU

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCv8wClAC38...feature=related

 

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

Here is some example of the power of internal martial arts.just imagine what would have happen if this was a complete mma fighter from today.most people who have trained bjj/mma and other styles like karate,kung fu etc knows that you need real sparring trainig to learn how to fight.This is old clips,mma is on a much higher level today.I doubt martial arts is on a higher level today.they have been doing their same stupid forms for thousends of years.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=215Ai-2dFIU

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCv8wClAC38...feature=related

 

 

 

It's not necessarily all about style, but about the practitioner of that style. Gracie jujutsu led Royce Gracie to become known as one of the best fighters in the world, so then everybody started learning BJJ... but then you have black belts in BJJ losing in MMA matches. Heck, even members of the Gracie family have lost fights (I forgot exactly who it was, it was in K1 or Pride or something, but it was one of the Gracie family who was fighting this black fighter who wore some golden gladiator type trunks or something, I forgot his name though). So to say that BJJ or some other art is more superior than others is just kind of silly, because there are clear examples of any given style winning or losing.

 

Everyone thought karate was pretty lame and ineffective, but now you've got Lyoto Machida who has a perfect professional fight record and uses Shotokan karate as his base style. Does karate suck now? Is karate the best style if you want to get a perfect fight record? No, it's about the fighter being able to use his or her style effectively in combat.

 

Watch the first minute and 15 seconds of this video, then pause it, think about who is going to win the fight, then continue:

(DISCLAIMER: there's some bad language in the video, it's a street fight)

 

So it's not always about style.... more like, how effectively is the style taught, how effectively is the style learned by the practitioner, how effectively is it put into use in fights, etc. There are plenty of traditional martial arts that have really effective take down defenses and defenses against grappling. Here's a video of a tai chi guy against grappling

 

The thing that the Gracies had going for them is that before them they had a bunch of people who got to be a first degree black belt in karate or something, they opened their own school, taught an incomplete system to people who then got a black belt, had even less knowledge, but opened up their own school. If you ever have the chance to find a genuine TMA master, their techniques are just as real, just as brutal, and just as effective as stuff you'd see in the popular MMA arts today (it's surprising, even, to see techniques in an art like tai chi or bagua or karate, and see that exact same technique being used by someone in MMA, the problem is that not a lot of TMA people learn the systems fully before calling themselves masters).

 

So yeah.

[Guest sykkelpump]

It's not necessarily all about style, but about the practitioner of that style. Gracie jujutsu led Royce Gracie to become known as one of the best fighters in the world, so then everybody started learning BJJ... but then you have black belts in BJJ losing in MMA matches. Heck, even members of the Gracie family have lost fights (I forgot exactly who it was, it was in K1 or Pride or something, but it was one of the Gracie family who was fighting this black fighter who wore some golden gladiator type trunks or something, I forgot his name though). So to say that BJJ or some other art is more superior than others is just kind of silly, because there are clear examples of any given style winning or losing.

 

Everyone thought karate was pretty lame and ineffective, but now you've got Lyoto Machida who has a perfect professional fight record and uses Shotokan karate as his base style. Does karate suck now? Is karate the best style if you want to get a perfect fight record? No, it's about the fighter being able to use his or her style effectively in combat.

 

Watch the first minute and 15 seconds of this video, then pause it, think about who is going to win the fight, then continue:

(DISCLAIMER: there's some bad language in the video, it's a street fight)

 

So it's not always about style.... more like, how effectively is the style taught, how effectively is the style learned by the practitioner, how effectively is it put into use in fights, etc. There are plenty of traditional martial arts that have really effective take down defenses and defenses against grappling. Here's a video of a tai chi guy against grappling

 

The thing that the Gracies had going for them is that before them they had a bunch of people who got to be a first degree black belt in karate or something, they opened their own school, taught an incomplete system to people who then got a black belt, had even less knowledge, but opened up their own school. If you ever have the chance to find a genuine TMA master, their techniques are just as real, just as brutal, and just as effective as stuff you'd see in the popular MMA arts today (it's surprising, even, to see techniques in an art like tai chi or bagua or karate, and see that exact same technique being used by someone in MMA, the problem is that not a lot of TMA people learn the systems fully before calling themselves masters).

 

So yeah.

 

Yes gracies lost,but first people learned gracie jiu jutsu and then added wrestling boxing muay thai .....Thats mma.they just got better than the gracie at their own game

The most importent is sparring a resisting opponent and mix tequniuqes that match your style.However I think there is not a single mma fighter who goes into a fight without no bjj skills.That would be very stupid

[h.uriahr]

Yes gracies lost,but first people learned gracie jiu jutsu and then added wrestling boxing muay thai .....Thats mma.they just got better than the gracie at their own game

The most importent is sparring a resisting opponent and mix tequniuqes that match your style.However I think there is not a single mma fighter who goes into a fight without no bjj skills.That would be very stupid

 

Plenty of fighters have had great careers without ever studying bjj. Some have been collegiate wrestlers for example.

[Guest sykkelpump]

Plenty of fighters have had great careers without ever studying bjj. Some have been collegiate wrestlers for example.

 

please give me some example.it is not a fact because you belive so

they all train to avoid submissins and escaping them.look what happened to brock lesnar against frank mir.he said after tha he should have trained moore bjj.and that he would train moore next time

 

http://www.mmalinker.com/xExternal.php?vidid=9987

Edited February 13, 2009 by sykkelpump

[h.uriahr]

[Guest sykkelpump]

It's not necessarily all about style, but about the practitioner of that style. Gracie jujutsu led Royce Gracie to become known as one of the best fighters in the world, so then everybody started learning BJJ... but then you have black belts in BJJ losing in MMA matches. Heck, even members of the Gracie family have lost fights (I forgot exactly who it was, it was in K1 or Pride or something, but it was one of the Gracie family who was fighting this black fighter who wore some golden gladiator type trunks or something, I forgot his name though). So to say that BJJ or some other art is more superior than others is just kind of silly, because there are clear examples of any given style winning or losing.

 

Everyone thought karate was pretty lame and ineffective, but now you've got Lyoto Machida who has a perfect professional fight record and uses Shotokan karate as his base style. Does karate suck now? Is karate the best style if you want to get a perfect fight record? No, it's about the fighter being able to use his or her style effectively in combat.

 

Watch the first minute and 15 seconds of this video, then pause it, think about who is going to win the fight, then continue:

(DISCLAIMER: there's some bad language in the video, it's a street fight)

 

So it's not always about style.... more like, how effectively is the style taught, how effectively is the style learned by the practitioner, how effectively is it put into use in fights, etc. There are plenty of traditional martial arts that have really effective take down defenses and defenses against grappling. Here's a video of a tai chi guy against grappling

 

The thing that the Gracies had going for them is that before them they had a bunch of people who got to be a first degree black belt in karate or something, they opened their own school, taught an incomplete system to people who then got a black belt, had even less knowledge, but opened up their own school. If you ever have the chance to find a genuine TMA master, their techniques are just as real, just as brutal, and just as effective as stuff you'd see in the popular MMA arts today (it's surprising, even, to see techniques in an art like tai chi or bagua or karate, and see that exact same technique being used by someone in MMA, the problem is that not a lot of TMA people learn the systems fully before calling themselves masters).

 

So yeah.

 

 

could not forget your statement about tma masters are at level with young musular athletes who train up to 5-6 hours a day with bjj,boxing,muay thay and wrestling.now a days they usually got one trainer at each dicipline and one for combining them.take a look at this clips and tell me if you still think a tma master coul survive here.sorry to say so but you actually have to be kind of stupid to belive that

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjHxQl-KwEs

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1RWxiD1uNc...feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Kx-HGDHas...feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBsZkxlgoRk