The power of Internal Martial Arts

[Guest sykkelpump]

[h.uriahr]

do your research.like i said what you belive is not a fact.every single of them you mentioned train bjj.i even got instructinals from most of them.you are talking about their main dicipline but they train a lot of bjj too.everybody does.If you go to sherdog and look at their records you will see they have a lot of submissions victory.submissions dont come from wrestling.some example of them training bjj:

 

matt hughes.

 

randy couture: Couture is generally recognized as a clinch and ground-and-pound fighter who uses his wrestling ability to execute take downs, establish top position, and successively strike the opponent on the bottom. Couture has also displayed a variety of skills in boxing, Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, submitting two opponents using different chokeholds. Couture is also the only athlete in UFC history to win a championship after becoming a Hall of Fame member and is the oldest title holder ever (in the UFC and MMA in general).

source :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Couture

 

fedor,sambo is very much the same as bjj: http://www.truveo.com/Fedor-Emelianenko-Ar...MA/id/575485564

 

chuck liddell: When Liddell started his MMA career, he began to train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu under John Lewis in Las Vegas, Nevada.[2]

 

Ultimate Fighting Championship

source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Liddell

 

Do you really think Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture and Fedor are successful because of the little training they have in bjj? Chuck Liddell sprawls, hardly ever going to the ground EVER, his sprawling is due to his level of prowess from wrestling. He's submitted one person in his entire career.

 

You really think bjj is that great? It has 0 effectiveness against more than one opponent. Also, for all those that train in bjj you should really be thanking Mitsuyo Maeda for bringing over Judo to Brazil. He may not have been the first but without him you'd know nothing about bjj.

 

Bjj is great for ground combat and conditioning but to put it on the pedestal like what you're doing is erroneous. Can you imagine trying to take down an assailant in a crowded bar, street, or alley? How about your head smacking against a curb, stool, gravel or glass? It's great to use on a mat or grass but in reality, if the fight goes to the ground, you're already in a bad situation. Royce Gracie wouldnt want to go the ground in a real street fight because the guys friend would stomp his roiding head in.

 

You'd be better off learning Judo or Muay Thai, something that is great in a clinch.

[Sloppy Zhang]

sorry to say so but you actually have to be kind of stupid to belive that

 

Mucho respect goes to pro fighters, and what they've done for martial arts in general over the past years.

 

But it's clear that you haven't met a real martial arts master, and it's clear that you don't know the difference between a REAL traditional martial art that trains for COMBAT and the combat SPORT that is mixed martial arts.

 

Both are good, both have their place. Just don't confuse them.

 

Oh, yes, there used to be a video on youtube called "the most technical street fight ever", I guess it's been taken down, but h.uriahr touched on the subject. It was basically a clip from the ultimate fighter, or whatever that UFC reality show was. Two of the contestants got into a fight on the back patio of the house. One of the guys gets tackled, they start wrestling around. One of the guys tries to use an arm bar. Well then the guy who's having the arm bar put on him lifts up his opponent, then slams him on the ground three or four times. The other guys break up the fight.

 

The dude who tried to use the arm bar had blood streaming down his entire back, his head was gushing with blood. That's what happens when you try and throw an arm bar on concrete. Have fun rolling around on the mats.

 

There was another video, it's been removed by user since I saw it, but basically these marines were hanging out in the barracks when three guys decide to hand cuff this fourth guy to his bed. Well the fourth guy gets kind of pissed off, and he pushes two of them away, but the third guy starts to wrestle with him. They are in the fourth guy's quarters. Well the third guy tries to tackle the fourth guy. It's obvious he's going for a classic BJJ takedown.... what happens? The corner of the room happens. He's trying to take this guy down, but the fourth guy is tucked right into the corner, and isn't going anywhere. The fourth guy puts the third guy in a headlock, but the third guy escapes..... then gets a knee to the face and gets knocked out cold.

 

Guess he should have protected his face better, and kept his BJJ to the mats where there's plenty of space to roll around....

 

Like I said, I have respect for all the martial arts and what they try to do.... but please, know your limitations. There are plenty of TMA guys and IMA guys who don't train effectively. That's true. But the guys who DO train effectively and realistically are scary. I have a friend who was lucky enough to have met an Okinawan karate master when the master moved to his state, a real old school karate guy, no nonsense, serious emphasis on conditioning and changing the applications to deal with baseball bats, nails on the ground, etc. He's one of the toughest and scariest guys I know, and I hope that no one ever tries to mess with him.... for their sake.

 

The combat sports are good as well. Just make sure you know where everything goes.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[h.uriahr]

Hey Sykkel how effective is bjj in these situations???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U-5_2aWoOg...=1&index=14

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM5hK9QaDrY...=1&index=69

 

Here's a better one of the first video

 

brazilian jujitsu in the middle of a street? with traffic??? wouldnt happen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEv6i-lhIWc...590&index=4

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRiSaFSVo5Q...C3&index=35

 

these are real world fights. they happen all the time. when you learn bjj you dont get an S on your chest and a pair of tights with a cape.

[Spectrum]

You should know how to travel through and be comfortable in all ranges.

grappling is a range, not a style. styles are impregnated w/ culture.

in the moment, no such thing as style, only human 3expression.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Spectrum

[h.uriahr]

You should know how to travel through and be comfortable in all ranges.

grappling is a range, not a style. styles are impregnated w/ culture.

in the moment, no such thing as style, only human 3expression.

 

Would you consider brazilian jujitsu a "type" of human expression?...or a particular "style" of expression?

[Guest sykkelpump]

Do you really think Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture and Fedor are successful because of the little training they have in bjj? Chuck Liddell sprawls, hardly ever going to the ground EVER, his sprawling is due to his level of prowess from wrestling. He's submitted one person in his entire career.

 

You really think bjj is that great? It has 0 effectiveness against more than one opponent. Also, for all those that train in bjj you should really be thanking Mitsuyo Maeda for bringing over Judo to Brazil. He may not have been the first but without him you'd know nothing about bjj.

 

Bjj is great for ground combat and conditioning but to put it on the pedestal like what you're doing is erroneous. Can you imagine trying to take down an assailant in a crowded bar, street, or alley? How about your head smacking against a curb, stool, gravel or glass? It's great to use on a mat or grass but in reality, if the fight goes to the ground, you're already in a bad situation. Royce Gracie wouldnt want to go the ground in a real street fight because the guys friend would stomp his roiding head in.

 

You'd be better off learning Judo or Muay Thai, something that is great in a clinch.

 

If you read what I write,You should be able to understand that it is mma I think is the most effective thing.And you should be able to figure out what mma means.I mention especially bjj because If the fight goes to the ground you need to know it.And every mma fighter trains it.About your videos .off course an mma fighter could do the same ,they have skills in many diciplines and would of course use the dicipline that suits the situation.When I trained karate I was on seminar with sensei enoeda and to tell you the truth I was not impressed.Look him up,he is supposed to be an badass in karate.Anyway live on in your dreams about the secret masters around the world.

You can find a lot of videos of mma fighters who shows their skills and prove them.why cant you find videos from tma masters with an resisting opponent?

The only videos you find looks really silly usually,they are beating an non resisting opponent in slow motion or something.You are living in a fantasy world when it comes to who the real fighters are

[yiannis]

MMA is just a sport. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with martial arts, which are solely designed to kill an opponent (wearing armor or not) and not score points, knock outs and tap outs.

 

In ancient Greece this distinction was very clear. The MMA of this period was called Pankration (a very cruel sport which was the highlight of the Olympic Games) but it was distinctly different from the martial art in the battlefield which was called Pammachon. Alexander the Great for example, forbid his soldiers to train in Pankration in order not to lose their fighting edge. Spartans did the same and they were holding the Pankration in contempt (in Pankration eye gouging and bitting were forbiden, but in Sparta during training these were allowed!!).

 

MMA fighters are well trained ATHLETES. Great stamina, great punching power (with gloves on), great punishment threshold, but... that's it.

[thelerner]

I think Sloppy Zhang put it best: Know your limitations. (and your arts)

 

I remember two lesser species arguing who would win a fight Godzilla or Rodan. The argument got so heated the Rodan fan hit the other guy in the face and sending him to the floor. As the attacker walked away the guy on the floor yelled at his back 'Godzilla would still win'.

 

The moral: Be more concerned with your own martial ability then discussing about others. 2. Godzilla would win.

 

 

[h.uriahr]

If you read what I write,You should be able to understand that it is mma I think is the most effective thing.And you should be able to figure out what mma means.I mention especially bjj because If the fight goes to the ground you need to know it.And every mma fighter trains it.About your videos .off course an mma fighter could do the same ,they have skills in many diciplines and would of course use the dicipline that suits the situation.When I trained karate I was on seminar with sensei enoeda and to tell you the truth I was not impressed.Look him up,he is supposed to be an badass in karate.Anyway live on in your dreams about the secret masters around the world.

You can find a lot of videos of mma fighters who shows their skills and prove them.why cant you find videos from tma masters with an resisting opponent?

The only videos you find looks really silly usually,they are beating an non resisting opponent in slow motion or something.You are living in a fantasy world when it comes to who the real fighters are

 

Why would an enlightened hermit want to have anything to do with a video recorder and the internet? You really think that Youtube is the line in the sand for evidence? It's ok to be a skeptic but dont think because you havent seen a Youtube video that you believe to be real that it's automatically impossible.

 

All martial arts have limitations. MMA is the most effective thing? So you think Capoeira and Ryukyu Kempo is a great mixed martial art application? To be specific youre saying that bjj/kickboxing is the most effective thing right? Not in every scenario. Concerning the videos, I was specifically talking about BJJ, like the guy who constantly knocks out the people in the crowd, bjj IS NOT EFFECTIVE IN THAT SITUATION. The pimp and karate instructor in the middle of the street bjj IS NOT EFFECTIVE IN THAT SITUATION.

 

Oh and here are some videos ( since you worship them as TRUTH) showing traditional martial artists in real fights.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8My36Iz-Wk

 

 

The art isnt what is effective, it's the individual. Just because you werent impressed with this Sensei Enoeda doesnt mean he couldnt have kicked your ass. For the most part, most of the great MMA fighters arent impressive in real life because they're human, and sometimes very nice and calm so they wouldnt appear to be impressive at all, but in the ring/cage they become an animal.

 

Cung Le is a prime example of someone who could break you with just a quick shot of his leg. Mike Tyson in his prime is an example of someone who could probably kill an average human with his fist. (singular).

 

Bjj only works if it goes to the ground. A good wrestler like Chuck Liddell doesnt let that happen.

Also, the first mistake was made by letting it go to the ground. Royce Gracie, Matt Hughes, Anderson Silva, Fedor, etc, would be in deep do do if they took an opponent to the ground in a street fight becuase that opponent probably has a buddy or 2 or 3 or more that's waiting right there with them. Many many debates have went on about ground vs standup but in the end, you should learn to kick butt standing before going to the ground because it's someone like a prime Mike Tyson or Chuck Liddell or Quinton Jackson who is going to take on multiple attackers before someone like Royce Gracie, BJ Penn, or any other brazilian jujitsu blackbelt would.

 

MMA is just a sport. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with martial arts, which are solely designed to kill an opponent (wearing armor or not) and not score points, knock outs and tap outs.

 

In ancient Greece this distinction was very clear. The MMA of this period was called Pankration (a very cruel sport which was the highlight of the Olympic Games) but it was distinctly different from the martial art in the battlefield which was called Pammachon. Alexander the Great for example, forbid his soldiers to train in Pankration in order not to lose their fighting edge. Spartans did the same and they were holding the Pankration in contempt (in Pankration eye gouging and bitting were forbiden, but in Sparta during training these were allowed!!).

 

MMA fighters are well trained ATHLETES. Great stamina, great punching power (with gloves on), great punishment threshold, but... that's it.

 

I think it's wrong to assume that MMA fighters cant handle themselves with gloves off. Personally, I dont know anyone dumb enough to fight a professional MMA fighter on the street. You are right though in that there are limitations. I think that if a professional MMA fighter was losing a battle on the street and it was life or death that he/she would resort to biting, pinching, spitting etc.

[Spectrum]

Would you consider brazilian jujitsu a "type" of human expression?...or a particular "style" of expression?

 

Humans express. Groups entrain. If you can entrain to the point of expressing original thought/movement (100th monkey) that is the goal so yes it's a type of collective expression... perhaps One set of problem solving techniques that reflect universal concepts? Perhaps... the brazilian flavor of wrestling? As a cultural phenomenon... wrestling is very old, even on egyption pottery. puppies and kittens do it. It is a primary abc even some might say an initiatory means of conditioning mind/body that prepars one for furthering their understanding of the bigger picture, which is far bigger than fighting amongst outselves.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Spectrum

[yiannis]

I think it's wrong to assume that MMA fighters cant handle themselves with gloves off.

 

Mike Tyson broke a bone in his right hand during a street brawl with pro boxer Mitch Green. It's one thing to hit with the gloves on to protect your hand and another to hit bone against bone.

 

Personally, I dont know anyone dumb enough to fight a professional MMA fighter on the street. You are right though in that there are limitations. I think that if a professional MMA fighter was losing a battle on the street and it was life or death that he/she would resort to biting, pinching, spitting etc.

 

The reality and the mentality on the streets is very different than that in a cage fight . On the street, in a potential dangerous or life threatening situation, it doesn't matter if you are Fedor or a super MMA athlete, because there is NO fight going on. There is only VIOLENCE and the one who is doing it usually prevails.

 

MMA fighting is just a combat sport. It has nothing to do with the true martial arts. Internal martial arts like Bagua, Tai Chi, Hsing I, are true martial arts and they were proven as such by being the choice of the imperial guards during the Manchu occupation of China. Times have changed, the great exponents of these arts are gone and with them the secrets of applying these arts in combat. That's why there is a decline on the fame of these MAs as true combat systems.

[h.uriahr]

Mike Tyson broke a bone in his right hand during a street brawl with pro boxer Mitch Green. It's one thing to hit with the gloves on to protect your hand and another to hit bone against bone.

The reality and the mentality on the streets is very different than that in a cage fight . On the street, in a potential dangerous or life threatening situation, it doesn't matter if you are Fedor or a super MMA athlete, because there is NO fight going on. There is only VIOLENCE and the one who is doing it usually prevails.

 

MMA fighting is just a combat sport. It has nothing to do with the true martial arts. Internal martial arts like Bagua, Tai Chi, Hsing I, are true martial arts and they were proven as such by being the choice of the imperial guards during the Manchu occupation of China. Times have changed, the great exponents of these arts are gone and with them the secrets of applying these arts in combat. That's why there is a decline on the fame of these MAs as true combat systems.

 

Professional fighters are prone to injury as is everyone, your statement was a blank statement. Do you think if Mike Tyson broke his hand on YOUR head that you'd be capable of fighting back? Many, many fighters have not only kept fighting with broken bones but have went on to win

 

You're right about the mentality part though but do you think that all MMA fighters go around thinking "duh where's dah cage, where's dah cage"? Of course not. If you honestly think that MMA fighters go blank when confronted with a real threat and are incapable of differentiating between the street and the cage then you are definitely confused.

 

Also, I personally would hate to be involved in a fight with Fedor because of the amount of VIOLENCE he is very capable of dishing out. You have a misconception about MMA. What is a "true" martial art? Lyoto Machida is a prime example of an MMA fighter who uses "true" martial arts in the cage. Cung Le is a Shan shou Kung Fu practitioner. Although if you classify "true" martial arts as internal only ie Bagua, Tai Chi, Hsing I then you are right, no fighter has yet to use those techniques in the cage or ring because they arent effective unless you are a real master, not a Bruce Franztis master but a real one like John Chang.

 

Tai Chi in the cage is like that skinny nerd taking on the football lineman. It doesnt work. Also, the MMA fighters are typically in phenomenal shape so I'm sure that there bodies are healthy inside as well as out so it'd take an even more experienced IMA master to take them down.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Tai Chi in the cage is like that skinny nerd taking on the football lineman. It doesnt work. Also, the MMA fighters are typically in phenomenal shape so I'm sure that there bodies are healthy inside as well as out so it'd take an even more experienced IMA master to take them down.

 

Well there's a little bit of difference there with tai chi in the cage....

 

You see back in the days in China (and I guess nowadays too), they had the lei tai, the raised platform. You won by beating you opponent to a pulp.... but you could also win by throwing your opponent off of the platform.

 

Tai chi certainly has powerful fa jin, and you have multiple accounts of people like Yang Banhou seriously crippling opponents with fa jin strikes to sensitive places of the body, chops to the throat, and all that good stuff, and then Yang Shaohou, who did similar types of things and practiced with his students full force. But you also have the yielding aspect to it, sort of like grappling in its own way, that you see people pushing or throwing someone a great distance while doing push hands.

 

All a tai chi master had to do back then was yield with an opponent and then throw them so that they'd fall off the platform. Sure, they COULD do a fa jin strike and do damage, but people like Chen Fake, who was known for being respectful to all of his opponents, and many other masters, whose philosophies were about winning WITHOUT injuring the other person, wouldn't resort to such a thing.

 

But with modern MMA you have a different dynamic: the cage. There is no out of bounds (unless you can throw someone OUT of the cage.... but that's against the rules anyway). So you HAVE to knock them out or tap them out. There is no "humane" way of ending the fight. If one were to use tai chi in MMA, you'd HAVE to do what people like Yang Banhou and Yang Shaohou did: break some bones.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[yiannis]

What is a "true" martial art?

 

A true martial art, is a martial art where you can use it to kill or incapacitate an armed or unarmed opponent, wearing an armor or not. How many MA in the world today can claim such thing?

 

Lyoto Machida is a prime example of an MMA fighter who uses "true" martial arts in the cage. Cung Le is a Shan shou Kung Fu practitioner.

 

MMA is JUST a sport. In the cage the only thing that you see is an athletic contest. By the way, Shan shou is NOT a martial art.

 

Tai Chi in the cage is like that skinny nerd taking on the football lineman. It doesnt work.

 

When you get the distiction between a martial art and a martial sport, then we can talk some more.

 

Also, the MMA fighters are typically in phenomenal shape so I'm sure that there bodies are healthy inside as well as out so it'd take an even more experienced IMA master to take them down.

 

Do you practice any energetic arts? If you were, then you wouldn't have written the above. Most MMA fighters are just puffed up steroid freaks. Fedor is around 30yo and looks like 50. Most of them are broken inside even if they look healthy (what the western life style deems healthy, anyway).

 

And to end this pointless conversation, MMA is JUST a sport, NOT a martial art. MMA fighters are ATHLETES and nothing more.

[h.uriahr]

Well there's a little bit of difference there with tai chi in the cage....

 

You see back in the days in China (and I guess nowadays too), they had the lei tai, the raised platform. You won by beating you opponent to a pulp.... but you could also win by throwing your opponent off of the platform.

 

Tai chi certainly has powerful fa jin, and you have multiple accounts of people like Yang Banhou seriously crippling opponents with fa jin strikes to sensitive places of the body, chops to the throat, and all that good stuff, and then Yang Shaohou, who did similar types of things and practiced with his students full force. But you also have the yielding aspect to it, sort of like grappling in its own way, that you see people pushing or throwing someone a great distance while doing push hands.

 

All a tai chi master had to do back then was yield with an opponent and then throw them so that they'd fall off the platform. Sure, they COULD do a fa jin strike and do damage, but people like Chen Fake, who was known for being respectful to all of his opponents, and many other masters, whose philosophies were about winning WITHOUT injuring the other person, wouldn't resort to such a thing.

 

But with modern MMA you have a different dynamic: the cage. There is no out of bounds (unless you can throw someone OUT of the cage.... but that's against the rules anyway). So you HAVE to knock them out or tap them out. There is no "humane" way of ending the fight. If one were to use tai chi in MMA, you'd HAVE to do what people like Yang Banhou and Yang Shaohou did: break some bones.

 

To make an internal art work against a professional fighter would require someone being a real master. Not some Bruce or Clyman type of master. Not some weekend tai chi teacher.

[Wayfarer64]

These arguments seem futile - and what of luck? In a real fight sometimes a lucky move saves the day! -That's just karma perhaps -But then again - the real wisdom says that the fight is always won before it begins...

If my apponant thinks I am a slow fat ninny and actually I've got skills - I am likely to have a serious upper-hand without his knowing what the hell he's about to learn...

 

Just like foot ball... anything can happen any given Sunday!

[h.uriahr]

A true martial art, is a martial art where you can use it to kill or incapacitate an armed or unarmed opponent, wearing an armor or not. How many MA in the world today can claim such thing?

MMA is JUST a sport. In the cage the only thing that you see is an athletic contest. By the way, Shan shou is NOT a martial art.

When you get the distiction between a martial art and a martial sport, then we can talk some more.

Do you practice any energetic arts? If you were, then you wouldn't have written the above. Most MMA fighters are just puffed up steroid freaks. Fedor is around 30yo and looks like 50. Most of them are broken inside even if they look healthy (what the western life style deems healthy, anyway).

 

And to end this pointless conversation, MMA is JUST a sport, NOT a martial art. MMA fighters are ATHLETES and nothing more.

 

They have the greatest training and nutrition in the world. They are far from unhealthy. A look at GSP will show you that.

 

A true martial art huh? Well for your information, many schools claim to be deadly while in reality are harmless, unless of course the student practices them in a manner that makes them deadly. A boxer can kill you easily. Especially a heavy weight boxer. A heavy weight kickboxer can easily break bones and kill as well. Cung Le has demonstrated that against a very highly trained professional. Sure you can choke someone out with bjj or judo or wrestling but when is the last time you read a newspaper article about some guy getting a bone break or dying because he fought a jujitsu master?

 

My point with Tai Chi in the cage went soaring over your head. As has everything else I've said.

 

Catching someones arm while they punch at you and breaking it isnt reality. I'm not saying it cant be done but you arent seeing reality for what it is. To call an MMA fighter an athlete and nothing more shows your ignorance.

 

By your definition sanshou isnt a martial art but I consider it one, boxing and wrestling as well. Any combative system of fighting.

 

You are living in a world of clouds, rainbows and unicorns. Many MMA fighters who you claim to be only athletes can perform with beauty and grace and can beat the tar out of your "true" martial art masters.

[yiannis]

You are living in a world of clouds, rainbows and unicorns. Many MMA fighters who you claim to be only athletes can perform with beauty and grace and can beat the tar out of your "true" martial art masters.

 

It's ok mate... I get it. MMA rulez!

[Sloppy Zhang]

To make an internal art work against a professional fighter would require someone being a real master. Not some Bruce or Clyman type of master. Not some weekend tai chi teacher.

 

I agree, it'd have to be someone with true internal skill.

 

Just like when you make statements about an MMAist being in shape and being able to react, you're talking about someone with real MMA skill, not some fat loser who trains at an MMA gym every other Saturday and thinks he's an MMAist but has an incredible losing record.

 

I've been making comparisons and statements under the assumption that the person is, for lack of a better term, a master in their chosen category. Sure, there are internal people that train incorrectly and don't have any internal power, just like there are MMA guys who train MMA but who suck.

 

Those people aside, however, tai chi DID make a name for itself. I'm sure you know how lei tai fights worked back in the day (if you don't, wikipedia gives a good summary), if you thought you were good you stood on top of the platform in the middle of the town and said, "I'm a badass if you think you can beat me get up here and knock me out or throw me off." After a couple hundred opponents, if you were still up there, you were pretty much the shit after that. The Yangs proved themselves on the lei tai, so did the Chens. Heck, even Sun Lutang, who pretty much said internal arts should be used pretty much exclusively for health, had his own bouts with other MA masters.

 

But you have to understand that there's a different strategy between fighting on lei tai, where you can push someone off, and the cage, where you can't push someone off. Many tai chi masters were able to use their skills to just toss opponents off the edge one after another (not all, like Yang Banhou did lots of fa jin strikes), and that's the background in which tai chi developed.

 

Look at MMA fighters, sometimes when someone tries a takedown, they back up and get pressed up against the cage. They wrestle around, and then maybe get out. Even on the ground, fighters use the cage to prevent the other person from being able to roll over and get in a dominant position. Imagine if those same MMA fighters were up on a lei tai, those strategies wouldn't work. It'd be a whole different dynamic. Same thing that happened when fighters went from a square ring to the octagon, different dynamic.

 

So when people make statements like "this isn't effective", they really need to think about the background in which the art developed. Sure, tai chi couldn't throw people off of the platform in a cage match.... but tai chi masters did that to humanely show their superiority. I guess if they had to they could have punched people in the throat like Yang Banhou, but whatever.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[h.uriahr]

I agree, it'd have to be someone with true internal skill.

 

Just like when you make statements about an MMAist being in shape and being able to react, you're talking about someone with real MMA skill, not some fat loser who trains at an MMA gym every other Saturday and thinks he's an MMAist but has an incredible losing record.

 

I've been making comparisons and statements under the assumption that the person is, for lack of a better term, a master in their chosen category. Sure, there are internal people that train incorrectly and don't have any internal power, just like there are MMA guys who train MMA but who suck.

 

Those people aside, however, tai chi DID make a name for itself. I'm sure you know how lei tai fights worked back in the day (if you don't, wikipedia gives a good summary), if you thought you were good you stood on top of the platform in the middle of the town and said, "I'm a badass if you think you can beat me get up here and knock me out or throw me off." After a couple hundred opponents, if you were still up there, you were pretty much the shit after that. The Yangs proved themselves on the lei tai, so did the Chens. Heck, even Sun Lutang, who pretty much said internal arts should be used pretty much exclusively for health, had his own bouts with other MA masters.

 

But you have to understand that there's a different strategy between fighting on lei tai, where you can push someone off, and the cage, where you can't push someone off. Many tai chi masters were able to use their skills to just toss opponents off the edge one after another (not all, like Yang Banhou did lots of fa jin strikes), and that's the background in which tai chi developed.

 

Look at MMA fighters, sometimes when someone tries a takedown, they back up and get pressed up against the cage. They wrestle around, and then maybe get out. Even on the ground, fighters use the cage to prevent the other person from being able to roll over and get in a dominant position. Imagine if those same MMA fighters were up on a lei tai, those strategies wouldn't work. It'd be a whole different dynamic. Same thing that happened when fighters went from a square ring to the octagon, different dynamic.

 

So when people make statements like "this isn't effective", they really need to think about the background in which the art developed. Sure, tai chi couldn't throw people off of the platform in a cage match.... but tai chi masters did that to humanely show their superiority. I guess if they had to they could have punched people in the throat like Yang Banhou, but whatever.

 

Agreed

[r.w.smith]

Remember when John Chang let Mike Tyson attack Him full force for almost 20 minutes straight ?

 

Yeah he was knocked out from Pak John right after with only a touch hahahahaha. MMA is for fools and to compare it to traditional gongfu is a disgrace.

[Aetherous]

Remember when John Chang let Mike Tyson attack Him full force for almost 20 minutes straight ?

 

No.

[r.w.smith]

LOL You think im Kidding

[Sloppy Zhang]

Remember when John Chang let Mike Tyson attack Him full force for almost 20 minutes straight ?

 

Yeah he was knocked out from Pak John right after with only a touch hahahahaha. MMA is for fools and to compare it to traditional gongfu is a disgrace.

 

 

No.