The power of Internal Martial Arts

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[mouse]

It was done in 1989 but still a classic:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=fBazAxwU4Ok

Enjoy.

 

 

His opponents are all floppy... all over the place and over extended for every movement.

 

Are there clips of better opponents? I've heard many good things about this teacher and he seems to have written quite a number of books from what I read on the forum.

 

Would be interesting to watch if anyone has any clips to share. Bagua is an interesting internal martial art.

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

[Baguakid]

I thought the video was ok, not fantastic, not horrible.

 

I thought his circle walking energy was too high, the root wasn't there. But, his footwork is better than most I've seen. His palm/arm formation is different from our style. It looked basic to me. No twisting, no tucking, no outward push, no rounding of the back. Or at least not much of it.

 

I have to give the man credit for his knowledge of Chinese and his duration of study.

[djs]

Fun to watch! I don't know too much about Ba Gua, but have a friend who does. He tells me that some of the old masters would circle walk at a very high rate of speed (of course they would train slowly as well).

 

I think quite a bit about the difference between internal/external martial arts. One difference, an emphasis on training, has to do with developing the ability to utilize Kukan (Japanse concept of "space"). Not just manipulating the visible space between you and your opponent, but also the space within your own body, similar to how Bruce (in the video) describes using all the joints. The inner sensitivity that it is possible to gain can lead to some of the more unusual/incredible seeming martial arts feats. Like people seeming like they are not doing anything and the next thing you know the attacker is on the floor in serious pain. Also possible to lock an opponents body in weird ways through manipulation of your own internal "space". I can't do this, but have had it done to me many times - I at least understand how it is accomplished, but have not yet refined the sensitivity/skill that this takes. Anyone have more fun videos

[orb]

His opponents are all floppy... all over the place and over extended for every movement.

 

 

Since they seem to punch and attack very much like girls I think they are just gay. Perhaps it was a course of self defense for gay couples only and that's all.

[Seth Ananda]

Some of the 'fights' in his later stuff are a bit better to watch but I am still a bruce fan. His students are a bit floppy but as another thread here mentioned, he used to hurt his students alot, in the earlier days.

 

I once trained with a teacher who was a bit too 'Gung Ho' and it made it really hard to Attack him with confidence. a passer bye would probably have said we looked gay too. but no, just afraid

 

Seth

[djs]

I once trained with a teacher who was a bit too 'Gung Ho' and it made it really hard to Attack him with confidence. a passer bye would probably have said we looked gay too. but no, just afraid

 

Seth

 

LOL!

[doc benway]

It's important to learn how to be a good partner. I don't think his training partners do a good job here.

No question, however, that he is a very accomplished martial artist.

His focus at the beginning of his circle walking seemed to be lacking but his footwork and balance were very good as he got into the fancy stuff.

[Vajrasattva]

Lots of yellow light green and blues in his aura as he is interviewed. And a few inch extensions of Glow through out body So he is doing something Ligit. I have always liked BK for the most part & he has good points and can convey a good level to people.

 

I still prefer Serak & Silat to this. But its good & he has development his aura glows good here. He needs more inner smile though : ) Not enough BLISS : )

 

God bless him & his Path.

 

S

Edited November 12, 2008 by Vajrasattva

[Bum Grasshopper]

I once trained with a teacher who was a bit too 'Gung Ho' and it made it really hard to Attack him with confidence. a passer bye would probably have said we looked gay too. but no, just afraid

 

Seth

LOL!

 

I trained with such a "traditional teacher" that if you showed "disrespect" he promptly drilled your ass to the ground and demonstrated some painful technique. Such "disrespect" could be not shouting the proper SHIHAN REA! when he entered the dojo to as little as looking directly in his eyes by accident. Yes, we were afraid of directly attacking him seriously because he would seriously attack us big time. You showed "respect" by making him look good.

 

When I trained BJJ, you could go at whoever you wanted full force with all you got. Those better than you simply brushed you off, then either tapped you out or taught you what you were doing wrong, then tapped you out. Yes, I have had a few that just wanted to beat up on someone, but when others saw this behavior, they got their turn.

 

I learned more in 6 months doing BJJ than I did in 6 years in "traditional" martial arts.

[orb]

 

 

I learned more in 6 months doing BJJ than I did in 6 years in "traditional" martial arts.

 

 

AMIN to that. It's good to know that there are still Tao Bums out there that like to keep it real.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 7, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Baguakid]

BJJ is 90 percent about techniques and ground fighting. Good stuff of course but most people don't really know much about Bagua. The core of Bagua is the Jibengong, basics. Bagua Zhan Zhuang, Circle walking, etc. There are core principles which must be adhered to, otherwise the training is for nothing.

 

Contrast Bruce's video with that of my teacher here:

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HudnSSwzOIY

 

or Zhang Dugan a disciple of Wang Hanzhi

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=10uDXPApg-8

 

Note the rounded back. One basic principle is "3 Hollows", 1 in the palm, 2 in the chest, 3 in the bottom of the foot. The feet should grab the ground like a dragon, like a suction cup. The chest is empty thus rounding the back. The palm is hollow and open.

 

There is a lot more but the point is when adhering to these principles in practice the body is developed. Connection is developed.

 

I would NOT like to be hit by any of these guys. My teacher's arms are like steel. His palms are like steel. He is amazing.

[orb]

Real isn't just what you do but how you do it.

 

http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur2.html

 

That's way too much reading

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[Vajrasattva]

AMIN to that. It's good to know that there are still Tao Bums out there that like to keep it real.

 

 

How do you keep it real against more than one attacker with Bjj??

[wudangquan]

I think bjj is probably great for conditioning and building some will power that's necessary in a fight . . .

 

But at the risk of sounding like a braggart or outing the dumbest part of my youth that I don't like people to know about, I've been in enough real fights where I was protecting my life (USP El Reno, USP Leavenworth, USP Atlanta, FCI Otisville, FCI Tallahassee, MCC Chicago or you can buy the documentary "invisible revolution" and see me when I was young and stupid) that I would never intentionally go to the ground like that.

 

Agree with Vajrasatva about the multiple attackers scenario.

 

The way they move in is crazy as well. You would break your own knees doing that on concrete.

 

That's not to say it isn't good, but it is what it is, and that's a sport, and probably a pretty good one at that.

 

It's asking to get killed doing it out in the real world though, and most of those guys are so brainwashed that they think their sport skills will protect them from real predators.

 

The best REAL fighters don't train much at all. Real hand to hand combat boils down to 3 things:

 

#1. Getting the drop on someone and sneak attacking them

#2. Will power and knowing how to wolf someone out

#3. Doing one or two things VERY well.

 

The best fighters I have ever seen - they don't know any systemized martial arts. What they do is have 1 or at most 2 finishing moves that they will use exclusively along with #1 and #2.

 

Martial artists think something like "If they do this then I'll do this, and if they react this way I'll react that way"

 

Real fighters think "No matter what they do I'm going to do this to them".

[Aetherous]

Real hand to hand combat boils down to 3 things:

 

#1. Getting the drop on someone and sneak attacking them

#2. Will power and knowing how to wolf someone out

#3. Doing one or two things VERY well.

 

I agree, this is what's important if in a street fight scenario. Plus: "#4. Luck." Because even someone who can do the first three will get beat half of the time if facing an opponent that knows something.

[wudangquan]

Yeah, surely.

 

Luck plays a big part in it as well just because - even if you're technically better or stronger or faster that someone else, you never know what your head is going to bounce into or something.

 

My ultimate technique is staying in my home and meditating and letting the animals do their animal stuff. haha

 

If push comes to shove you have to be able to emotionally and psychologically unbalance someone and finish it fast, though.

 

As far as normal guys go - training or no training . . . If they're walking down the streets in our "civilized" societies or in the shopping mall and you just walk up and smack them as hard as you can - all that training goes out the window for more than long enough to handle things if you have to.

 

And I love martial arts. It's really my whole life and I sacrifice everything else to martial arts and my own cultivation towards - whatever. Absolute non-resistance.

 

But the truth is that gym rat stuff won't stop a real predator who understands how conflict "works", and neither will kung fu. You have to be a stronger predator.

[wenwu]

Real isn't just what you do but how you do it.

 

http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur2.html

 

 

hope i got the quote thing right .... fiorst time

 

 

 

nce to see you here bill all the way from empty flowwer

 

nice video of you and your teacher, yeah good turtle back, what style of bagua do you do?

[Baguakid]

Hey wenwu,

 

Do I know you ? We practice Bagua from Wang ZhuangFei.

 

 

Dong HaiChuan -> YinFu -> Gong BaoTian -> Wang ZhuangFei

 

As I understand it, Gong Baotian also studied with Dong HaiChuan after his time with Yinfu.

 

 

My teacher's name is Ming QianBo who studied with several ppl in our lineage.

[orb]

How do you keep it real against more than one attacker with Bjj??

 

If your attackers are all from Bagua like in the Frantzis video you'll do just fine with BJJ, as they'll bump into each other while trying to complete their Eight Palms Circle Walking . But if you have serious fighters then you are right BJJ is not enogh - that's why my recipe is a couple of years of BJJ + MUY THAI and you are good to go.

[Seth Ananda]

How do you keep it real against more than one attacker with Bjj??

 

Or on broken glass, or a stair well, or in a phone box, a car, uneven terrain or especially against someone who learnt to fight outside a sporting arena?

 

A Wing Tsun teacher I know got regularly challenged by the local members of his neighborhood Muai Thai club. He would poke them in the eye and that was it. Most of them are his students now.

 

Mind you, Bjj still does well against crap as long as it is in the 'Right' conditions to be able to use it. One of the melbourne gracie teachers went around sampling the talent and cleaned up a number of teachers (on their nice smooth dojo floors, with those cushy mats on them ). He met my old Aikido teacher and couldnt move him. he is now trying to learn some Aikido principles to add them to ground work.

 

I spar with a bjj friend, and any time he rushes me I drop an elbow on him. I just don't understand why anyone would offer me the back of their skull, neck and spine like that. It asking for something really nasty to happen.

 

Seth

[goldisheavy]

The best REAL fighters don't train much at all. Real hand to hand combat boils down to 3 things:

 

#1. Getting the drop on someone and sneak attacking them

#2. Will power and knowing how to wolf someone out

#3. Doing one or two things VERY well.

 

The best fighters I have ever seen - they don't know any systemized martial arts. What they do is have 1 or at most 2 finishing moves that they will use exclusively along with #1 and #2.

 

Martial artists think something like "If they do this then I'll do this, and if they react this way I'll react that way"

 

Real fighters think "No matter what they do I'm going to do this to them".

 

I think this is not half bad. But there are different kinds of training. Most martial arts training, even including the internal arts, serve to condition certain patterns into the mind. By putting these patterns into the mind one achieves a two-fold effect:

 

1. One's mind is calmer, because one believes that if one sticks to the pattern, one will be safe. So when something happens, there is less panic. This is really a placebo effect. You might as well believe that the great Flying Spaghetti Monster in the sky will protect you, and if you believe it enough, you will get the same calm and collected mind.

 

2. Since one's mind has been constrained by a pattern, one does very well with anything that fits into that pattern, but one fails catastrophically when something doesn't fit into the pattern. A pattern is a form of prejudice. Any conditioning is prejudice.

 

However, there is also a kind of "training" that aims at softening up prejudices and eliminating patterns. This training is not based on any form and it has no forms, or no permanent and important forms. The effect of this training is many-fold. For one, the person clings less to life, because clinging to "life" is actually just clinging to a certain pattern. One's own identity is a pattern. One's own notion of health is a pattern, etc. So as these patterns are softened up, there is less clinging energy. As one clings less, staying "alive" is not that important anymore. A person understands that life is eternal and that one doesn't have to cling to it to ensure its continuation. Secondly, the person becomes more sensitive. When the mind is no longer viewing the phenomena by comparing them against internal patterns, there is more room to notice things and more room for imagination to manifest things. So the liveliness becomes less inhibited. In a street fight this guy would appear like an insane lunatic and his blows would mean death, because there would be no internal stopping energy operating within once they decide to unleash force. But also, it is unlikely a guy like that would fight, because there is not necessarily much to their mind that's really worth fighting for.

 

This training consists of contemplation and meditation. Unfortunately the contemplative and meditative forms you learn are just that - forms. They are patterns. They do not do this trick I am talking about. To learn what I am talking about you have to learn it on your own. You can't be taught this by a master of any kind. The best a master can do is just sit there and question your ignorant assumptions and to help you clarify your desires, like, "Why do you want this? when you get this, it will be good why?" and so on. Most people don't know what they want. If people don't even know their own wishes, how can they know something that is supposedly external to them? It is nonsense. First learn what you want and who you are, then if you still have room for doubts, try to learn about the external world.

Edited November 12, 2008 by goldisheavy

[orb]

 

Or on broken glass, or a stair well, or in a phone box, a car, uneven terrain or especially against someone who learnt to fight outside a sporting arena?

 

A Wing Tsun teacher I know got regularly challenged by the local members of his neighborhood Muai Thai club. He would poke them in the eye and that was it. Most of them are his students now.

 

Mind you, Bjj still does well against crap as long as it is in the 'Right' conditions to be able to use it. One of the melbourne gracie teachers went around sampling the talent and cleaned up a number of teachers (on their nice smooth dojo floors, with those cushy mats on them ). He met my old Aikido teacher and couldnt move him. he is now trying to learn some Aikido principles to add them to ground work.

 

I spar with a bjj friend, and any time he rushes me I drop an elbow on him. I just don't understand why anyone would offer me the back of their skull, neck and spine like that. It asking for something really nasty to happen.

 

Seth

 

I'm looking forward to meeting people like your teacher.