The power of Internal Martial Arts

[enouch]

Kevin "Kimbo Slice" Ferguson has gone pro and already gotten beaten by 3 MMA guys:

Sean Gannon

Seth Petruzelli

Roy Nelson

However, he has also beaten 4 pro guys as well.

 

Point being that while he totally dominated on the street level, his record has dropped significantly since competing against trained pros. Ergo, the "streets" are often not as "tough" as people think (assuming barehanded fights).

 

 

 

Well, street fighters without a lot of experience are easy to beat but street fighters who know their shit can be very dangerous.The streets carry a greater sense of fear because you aren't dealing with a ring and rules! Less pattern reconition going on,which is why I've always agreed with Bruce Lee who said suppose you're trapped in a room with a 7.3 guy doped up on p.c.p. can you maintain your killer instinct?

[New Dawn Fades]

And also I reviewed all the videos ... but they are very far from a real attack/defense type of situation

 

The videos may be, but some show the 'elements' of it just as well anyway. You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the IMA technique of stealing the puncher's balance works great (every time if the IMA person is good) against muggers and big bad street fighters and is taught to special forces and other 'people' you've never heard of. Either that or you ignored it

 

It wouldn't be taught to US special forces by top masters in the country if it wasn't effective. It requires that the opponent 'give' the IMA artist a punch, and good tai chi people won't give it away.

 

We also learn how to steal balance against a person with a knife or a gun. You can use it to stab a knife attacker in the neck with their own knife while they are still holding it, so their finger prints are on it. Same thing with a gun, you can shoot them with their own gun while their finger is on the trigger. This is well proven in real life, if it wasn't my teachers wouldn't be alive.

 

... and a punch comes quite a bit faster and rarely misses.

 

If you are good at yielding it misses every time.

Edited October 20, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[orb]

Kevin "Kimbo Slice" Ferguson has gone pro and already gotten beaten by 3 MMA guys:

Sean Gannon

Seth Petruzelli

Roy Nelson

However, he has also beaten 4 pro guys as well.

 

Point being that while he totally dominated on the street level, his record has dropped significantly since competing against trained pros. Ergo, the "streets" are often not as "tough" as people think (assuming barehanded fights).

 

I couldn't care less about Kimbo slice and his performance - in my opinion he is a total villain and ignorant compared to real martial artists like Fedor Emelianenko. I was just giving an example of a real attack. I have seen a lot of guys like him who are not even pro - who would attack you with such a force that none of your IMA training would be able to sustain.

 

The videos may be, but some show the 'elements' of it just as well anyway. You must have missed the part where I mentioned that the IMA technique of stealing the puncher's balance works great (every time if the IMA person is good) against muggers and big bad street fighters and is taught to special forces and other 'people' you've never heard of. Either that or you ignored it

 

It wouldn't be taught to US special forces by top masters in the country if it wasn't effective. It requires that the opponent 'give' the IMA artist a punch, and good tai chi people won't give it away.

 

We also learn how to steal balance against a person with a knife or a gun. You can use it to stab a knife attacker in the neck with their own knife while they are still holding it, so their finger prints are on it. Same thing with a gun, you can shoot them with their own gun while their finger is on the trigger. This is well proven in real life, if it wasn't my teachers wouldn't be alive.

If you are good at yielding it misses every time.

 

 

I don't believe a single word you wrote - I've met people in special forces also people from the Russian special forces that are very proud of their "systema" even trained with them for a few months - all I can say is that indeed they were very good at what they were doing - but they trained using external martial arts methods - there was no IMA involved whatsoever and those guys were just as big and strong as Kimbo.

If you ever feel that you or your teachers can block a real attack like you are saying using IMA - let me know.

 

There are some pretty good tai chi threads over on bullshido. They basically focus on tai chi players who enter sanshou competitions, and they look at video clips of tai chi techniques being applied in competition.

 

You might have to search far back, but as far as the reputable people on bullshido go (the people who are rational and look at video evidence rather than just hating, yes, they exist on bullshido), they have all pretty much come to the consensus that yes, IMA's work, if you train properly.

 

 

I would really like to see such a video. I couldn't find anything.

Edited October 20, 2009 by orb

[New Dawn Fades]

 

Systema has plenty of internal aspects. Also, my teacher has taught the art of invisibility to some special forces. I guess you didn't see that either, ROFL

Edited October 21, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[orb]

 

Systema has plenty of internal aspects. Also, my teacher has taught the art of invisibility to some special forces. I guess you didn't see that either, ROFL

 

The art of invisibility ???????????????????????????????

 

Listen kiddo, I'm sorry about taking your posts seriously - also please disregard my posts from now on , I'm not into comic books or japanese cartoons....

[New Dawn Fades]

Orb, you moron, you underestimate your enemies and don't take your superiors seriously.

 

My teacher also teaches/taught special forces how to kill or stun people with mind control and it was used in the second world war. It's easy.

 

Still, it's flattering to be called a kid, even by a moron. Even moreso in fact.

Edited October 21, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[Gerard]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[New Dawn Fades]

Here's a video of a couple of blockheads:

 

http://www.movies.martialarm.com/videos/To...al_Street_Fight

 

Those guys wouldn't be able to yield even if their lives depended on it.

 

Concerning stealing the balance, notice when one blockhead misses and almost falls down, he got his balance stolen by accident, but that's the same way it works when you steal someone's balance on purpose. It and the IMA principle behind it, yielding, will be invisible to Orb.

Edited October 22, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[New Dawn Fades]

Here's a video for you Durkhrod.

 

Here is a video of Systema showing that it has many of the high level internal aspects. You can see that the attackers balance is frequently stolen, the softness and efficiency of the applications, and how it is used against weapons. My martial arts training is very similar. It also shows a gun disarm which ends with the gun pointing at the gun holder, which I mentioned in an earlier post. Both Systema and my martial lineage came from the same region of Asia.

 

 

Of course, Orb will say that the attackers aren't tying hard, but the fact is that the harder they try the more they get hurt.

Edited October 22, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[New Dawn Fades]

Here's another Systema video which has good demonstrations of stealing the balance. Also you will see the use of some mind control techniques that we also use. At 1:25 you see a mind control technique blended with what we call a hand signal, at 1:40 it shows a pure mind control technique, and another, different one at 2:15.

 

Systema balance stealing and mind control

 

All of these methods are known and taught in some of the Chinese internal martial arts. There are similar videos of my teachers, but they are part of a private collection.

Edited October 22, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[New Dawn Fades]

Non contact - internal

 

Gun technique we practice

[Gerard]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[orb]

Video about Luo Dexiu's Gao style Bagua and his snake throw:

 

 

Orb, you and your MMA guys come close to him and there's no way you'll even withstand a single punch.

 

Anyway in MMA there is no hitting in the back of the head, no groin strikes, no headbutts, no small joint manipulation, no blatant attempts to break bones when you have a grab, no strikes to the throat, etc. What is the point of fighting then? To entertain a brainless and undeducated audience? To see how those big meat-heads loaded on roids roll on the ground, big deal!

 

The bigger the better for us to given them back all that braindead force.

NDF, I posted a good video about "Sistema applications" a while back. It is somewhere in the first few pages.

 

Mr durkhrod chogori,

I have no interest whatsoever in audience, medals or steroids. I am only interested in 100% efficiency. I don't care about chinese clothes or russian camouflage uniforms nor do I care about old stories about old masters and their miraculous skills.

I have tried different IMA methods with a few so called grandmasters and was very dissapointed. Personally I am not by any means too big or too strong but rather average and I would love to learn smth that is a little bit smarter then what I have witnessed so far in the IMA world.

The videos that have been posted on this thread are very similar to the videos that my teachers had and I am very sorry but none of them have impressed me at all.

On the contrary for example, a video with John Chang - is very impressive to me because there's smth very special about that guy and I know that he is for real - while all these other wannabes just don't look right to me - I am saying this just to point out the fact that I don't deny the existence of real internal arts but they are extremely rare and I don't think anybody on this forum is part of a school like that.

 

 

If what you are saying was true I would come to you and beg you to let me learn your system. So far the people from IMA that I have met and fought were very weak and their system didn't make any sense - and they were doing exactly the same things that are in these videos that you guys proudly post here. So how the hell am I supposed to believe this when I've seen it in real life and I verified that they don't work.

 

For example my buddy from the russian "Omon" forces was training directly under Kadochnikov whom they call grandpa and he is said to be the man who put the "Systema" method together - so he is telling me all these theories about their version of internal martial arts and he is an instructor himself and I choke the shit out of him using a basic grappling guillotine and none of his IMA training could do anything about it.

 

The same happened with a couple of Bagua and Taichi guys....

 

Again I'm not trying to prove that I am better or stronger - as I am getting my ass kicked on a regular basis by external martial arts practitioners - it never happened with the IMA guys though and I really wish it would ....

[Gerard]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[doc benway]

All good points below.

I practice Taijiquan primarily and a little Xingyi and Bagua.

I used to fight full contact when training in a Japanese style (too old now).

In my experience, very few IMA practitioners ever figure out how to really make it work.

Either they haven't been given the proper training tools or they haven't trained hard and long enough (or both).

It's not easy to make it work but trying to figure it out is a great way to spend free time...

 

Mr durkhrod chogori,

I have no interest whatsoever in audience, medals or steroids. I am only interested in 100% efficiency. I don't care about chinese clothes or russian camouflage uniforms nor do I care about old stories about old masters and their miraculous skills.

I have tried different IMA methods with a few so called grandmasters and was very dissapointed. Personally I am not by any means too big or too strong but rather average and I would love to learn smth that is a little bit smarter then what I have witnessed so far in the IMA world.

The videos that have been posted on this thread are very similar to the videos that my teachers had and I am very sorry but none of them have impressed me at all.

On the contrary for example, a video with John Chang - is very impressive to me because there's smth very special about that guy and I know that he is for real - while all these other wannabes just don't look right to me - I am saying this just to point out the fact that I don't deny the existence of real internal arts but they are extremely rare and I don't think anybody on this forum is part of a school like that.

If what you are saying was true I would come to you and beg you to let me learn your system. So far the people from IMA that I have met and fought were very weak and their system didn't make any sense - and they were doing exactly the same things that are in these videos that you guys proudly post here. So how the hell am I supposed to believe this when I've seen it in real life and I verified that they don't work.

 

For example my buddy from the russian "Omon" forces was training directly under Kadochnikov whom they call grandpa and he is said to be the man who put the "Systema" method together - so he is telling me all these theories about their version of internal martial arts and he is an instructor himself and I choke the shit out of him using a basic grappling guillotine and none of his IMA training could do anything about it.

 

The same happened with a couple of Bagua and Taichi guys....

 

Again I'm not trying to prove that I am better or stronger - as I am getting my ass kicked on a regular basis by external martial arts practitioners - it never happened with the IMA guys though and I really wish it would ....

[orb]

Well, finally you are opening up your heart and leaving your ego behind. You have taken an important step. Well, I guess you live in the US, right? I am based in Australia and so does my teacher. I can guarantee you that our Bagua system has got nothing to do with most of the shows run on YT. However some of the people putting their material in YT are for real. Luo Dexiu is one of them

 

My teacher has no vids on YT and zero interest in promoting himself.

 

He makes a living as an acupuncturist and hynotherapist and is a very reserved individual. His background is Xingyi and then Baguazhang for almost 2 decades. I am not going to show off and tell you this or that. The proof is in the pudding. Come and visit us and you shall see with your own eyes what real IMA is.

 

If you are interested for a visit and meet my teacher, let me know.

 

.....................................

 

Next,

 

Li style Tai Chi:

 

 

If I make the effort and come all the way to Australia you have to promise me that whoever is going to "show" me your the style - will allow me to attack using a basic streetfight attack. I don't want to spend all that money and see demos like in the videos - I want to be able to punch my opponent in the face, full contact and speed or attempt a takedown on him and your style should be able to neutralise me.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well, finally you are opening up your heart and leaving your ego behind. You have taken an important step. Well, I guess you live in the US, right? I am based in Australia and so does my teacher. I can guarantee you that our Bagua system has got nothing to do with most of the shows run on YT. However some of the people putting their material in YT are for real. Luo Dexiu is one of them

 

My teacher has no vids on YT and zero interest in promoting himself.

 

He makes a living as an acupuncturist and hynotherapist and is a very reserved individual. His background is Xingyi and then Baguazhang for almost 2 decades. I am not going to show off and tell you this or that. The proof is in the pudding. Come and visit us and you shall see with your own eyes what real IMA is.

 

If you are interested for a visit and meet my teacher, let me know.

 

.....................................

 

Next,

 

Li style Tai Chi:

 

 

Hm, no offense, I have respect for people who devote their time to the martial arts, and added respect for people helping others.

 

But if you are teaching a martial art, you need to prove it works. Tai chi, bagua, xingyi, shaolin, hung gar, karate, all these "classic" styles didn't become famous because of their name. They became famous because the people who created them and their top students were good fighters.

 

They got up in the ring, or on lei tai, or whatever, and they said, "I'm a badass, no one can beat me, if you think you can, step right up." And they beat them. Some of them were nice and just sent them flying a bit, some of them were rougher and broke some bones. But they all proved they had the stuff.

 

Then their style had a famous name, people started spreading it around, claiming they could do all this stuff, yadda yadda, things got watered down but, it doesn't matter WHAT your style is, IMA, EMA, UFO, whatever, it has, is, and always will be, "put up or shut up". It's not just bullshido trolls that said that, EVERYONE has said that.

 

And now in this present day we have recording devices so you can record fights. If people want to claim their style is the best, they need to have some pretty serious footage of some real fights. This isn't ancient China. You don't have to travel all over the country on foot on some pilgrimage to seek out the highest learning, then sweep the floor for 10 years, before someone shows you how to cha cha........ It's NEVER been that way outside of kung fu movies.

 

Yang Lu Chan did it. His son didn't ride on his name, he got up there and did it too. Dong Haichuan and his students had to fight to establish their styles. Xingyi had that guy who did bengchuan all the time and apparently killed someone with it. Of course they didn't have youtube back then, so they can't prove it.... but people here and now saying they can do stuff DO have youtube, they should be able to do it.

 

Sorry if that sounded like a rant, but I cannot stress how much I dislike guys who say things like, "come to my dojo and see what I can do." And whatnot. Get a video camera. Go to local MMA gym. Fight. Record. Post. End of story.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Gerard]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

There is much wisdom and practicallity in most martial arts.. from this, i conclude the difference is mainly in the practitioner.. internal/external ~ Yin/Yang.. each is always present in the other..

'keyboard kung-fu' is generally pointless, and almost always embarassing to observe..

 

Be well..

[thunder mind]

The path of a real Internal kung fu fighter is really hard work.

 

 

Still even to this day i honestly believe that internal martial arts is only for the few.

 

 

I'll put it like this. In the good old days of internal martial art training would go like this.

 

1. You would do some form of qigong that would be full of strengthening and stretching exercises.

2. A few week s go by and sifu would then teach you various forms of standing and sitting meditations. For now you would practice these like they were your martial art techniques. You would practice this for a few hrs a day everyday. And during this time you would not be able to have an ejaculation and you had to eat really good.

3. You would do this internal training for like 5yrs straight. This is what builds your foundation.

4. About after the second yr Sifu would teach you how to move your energy in basic fundamental patterns. This is to be practiced along with your daily internal training practice.

5. You did not even learn any martial arts until the chi could be felt flowing out of your hands like like water pouring out of a cup.

 

6. Now after this foundation is made you are now ready to learn how to move your energy in martial postures and learn internal energy techniques.

7. Your foundation also laid the ground work for you to have a low level iron body. Which now has to be developed and fine tuned with sensitvity training which comes from the partner training.

8. once the form is learned you then learn how to circulate the energy inside and outside the body as you do the form. Then you learn moving drills with your partner and you learn how to circulate energy between you two.

9. Then you learn to project and circulate this energy between you and your partner at a distance.

(You also still do your internal training practice everyday)

 

If your doing internal martial arts and you say your dedicated but you havent put the time in focus build up your chi and become good with it then your just wasting your time.

 

but dont listen to me.

 

Just wait till you come across a real internal fighter who for the first 5yrs of his training did nothing but intense internal chi alchemy and he still practices everyday. I will say this if you train right you will reach a point to where emissions wont drain you. This is one of the may many points of just putting in the time and building your foundation. If you put 4hrs a day of chi building and training after 5yrs you will have a great foundation and everyone who hasnt done that really wont be a problem for you. With just a touch you could make them fly over 15ft and you were just being nice. You could have done a lot worse if you wanted.

 

If your an internal martial artist and your not training like that but you have been training for a few yrs and you plan to train for the rest of your life. Then....wtf are you doing man up and understand that your chi cultivation is the center of your art martial art is just an expression of your internal energy. You can fight, heal, astral travel, and so on with it.

 

In this age of deception most people think that putting in yrs of sitting and standing meditation is just a waste of time! -Think about that. When i do and i realize that most people actually think that! and when i think about that I feel a terrible hurt in my heart because it is then i realize they just do not know really what an internal martial artist has and what it is really like for us.

 

We experience life and combat in a way a way that is very different than other people.

[gendao]

^ Great points, thunder mind. I believe this type of training takes an immense amount of time, effort & perseverance. So, I almost don't think that martial skill alone is nearly sufficient motivation for someone to train that hard. You would likely have to be doing it for spiritual cultivation, and then internal martial power could come as a fringe benefit...

 

I just watched these videos of a Californian (David Wei) who went to train hardcore in Wudang. Maybe it's just me, but I feel a lot of movement of powerful qi as he does his forms?

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Point being, real skill takes real effort. I just don't see this same type of result from weekend warriors here.

[minkus]

Greetings thundermind, thank you for this interesting post. I can only agree that without foundation there is nothing to build upon

 

Regards, Mike

Edited October 28, 2009 by minkus

[Gerard]

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Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[lifeforce]

And a good compilation of various Xingyi animal forms:

 

 

 

The best xingyi vid I have seen. Some very good variations on the five fists also which are rarely seen.

And not a single pair of MMA speedos in sight

 

Excellent stuff !

[Baguakid]

The path of a real Internal kung fu fighter is really hard work.

Still even to this day i honestly believe that internal martial arts is only for the few.

 

I agree with this. Even my Bagua teacher, whom I consider to be very capable, says we are just playing. Real IMA, like Wang Hanzhi and Zhang DuGan who started from very young and trained daily without interruption for 20+ years.

 

Those Xingyi vids, especially the first, were so so based on what I've seen in Shanghai. IMO